---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  hood, clinitest, omega pid (Jim Liddil)
  Siebel (David Lamotte)
  Cherry Beer ("Alan McKay")
  Kansas City Brew Pubs ("Gary Krone")
  Duvel Yeast (john_penn)
  re. Thanks to all the HBD Folks that came to KC (Dean Fikar)
  Duvel/golden or triple (RCAYOT)
  maltotetraose ("Stephen Alexander")
  gear motor/mash paddle stats (Vintage Cellar)
  California State Fair Competition Results (Robert Arguello)
  Vinotheque USA will host your club and more! (Bruce Susel)
  What are Micrococci? (Re: Dishwasher sanitizing) ("John Palmer")
  Clini**** post (Al Korzonas)
  Cold storage advice needed (Dean Fikar)
  Update on stealth fermentation (Jeff Porterfield)


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Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 07:01:03 -0400
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at vms.arizona.edu>
Subject: hood, clinitest, omega pid

I know at times that people have tried to get the motor used in the laminar
flow hood described in BT vol. 3, no. 3.  I had to get one to replace mine
after the movers damaged mine.  The motor is made by ebm (ebm.com) and
retails for $72.  EBM can provide a list of retailers.  Fortunately the
company is based in CT and I found a distributor nearby.

I clinitested some commercial beers.  Long Trail Double Bag (7.2% abv),
0.5%, Cantillon gueuze bottled in 1993, 0.25%, Samual Adams IPA, 0.25-0.5%.

Omega has a whole group of new PIDs available for those interested in such
stuff.

Jim Liddil




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Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 22:35:33 +1000
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Siebel

As a small token of appreciation for the brilliant manner in which our
questions were recently answered by the Siebel staff, I would like to give
a quick mention for the excellent customer service that I have just
received from them.

Following on from the positive reviews that Kunze's book has received in
the HBD over the past year or so, I decided to take the plunge and shell
out my hard earned cash for a copy.  The online reviews pointed me to the
publisher's German site where it was available online for about $A300.  A
quick search of the HBD archives turned up a mention by Jethro that Siebel
also had this book for sale.

On Friday (a week ago), I sent an eMail to Siebel requesting confirmation
that they did have the book available and at what price.  The following
Monday , I received their catalogue (in WordPerfect) format which showed
that the book was available for $A250 (including Air freight).  On Tuesday
I received a follow-up giving the details of just the Kunze book, just in
case that I had trouble reading the previous WordPerfect doc.

Suitably impressed with their price ( a saving of $50 over the German
price), and their level of service, I ordered the book on Wednesday - and
was totally blown away to have it delivered into my letterbox yesterday (ie
5 days since I ordered it).  I have previously waited many months for books
to arrive from Amazon !

So, if anyone is considering the Kunze book, I can heartily endorse it and
also recommend Siebel as a potential supplier.  They certainly seem to be a
class act all round.

David Lamotte
Not a Siebel shareholder In Newcastle N.S.W. Australia


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Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 07:44:15 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: Cherry Beer


On my homepage at http://www.bodensatz.com/ you'll find in the "recipes"
section a whole section on using fruit.  In general, just take your favorite
recipe and add cherries.  I've made light cherry beers, and dark cherry
stouts.  Mmmmmm, cherries ...

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration	613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks		All opinions expressed are my own



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Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:24:16 -0500
From: "Gary Krone" <gary.krone at hksystems.com>
Subject: Kansas City Brew Pubs

I will be in Kansas City on business starting in October, and was
wondering if anyone could send me a list of Brewpubs in the area.  I
will be on the north side, Claycomo area, but know my way around.  I
used to live up near the airport and worked down in Overland Park KS.

Thanks,

Gary Krone
gkrone at execpc.com


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Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:53:07 +0000
From: john_penn at jhuapl.edu
Subject: Duvel Yeast

Nathan asks about Duvel Yeast,
   Regarding Duvel Yeast (Wyeast 1388), I Posted a couple of my
experiences using this yeast cultured from a bottle this past winter.  I
noticed that its a steady but slow fermenter compared to other ale
yeasts I usually use.  I almost made the mistake of bottling a batch
after 2 weeks because the bubbling had slowed and my other beer
fermenting alongside using Nottingham dry yeast had certainly finished
in 2 weeks.  At the time my 1.070 Dubbel had dropped to about 1.030 and
when I realized how high it was I put it back in the fermenter to avoid
bottle bombs.  It dropped to the mid teens after a couple more weeks.    
    My advice is that you should wait at least 3 to 4 weeks before
bottling depending on fermentation temp, etc.  I am assuming relatively
warm fermentation temperatures like 70-75F which I've read is not
unusual for belgian ale yeasts.  Even at the warm temps, it will seem
sluggish next to a fast fermenter like Nottingham dry yeast or Wyeast
1728 Scottish Ale yeast.  It's supposed to be a good attenuator, I don't
have Al K's book handy but if you have it check the appendix for details
on this yeast. I seem to remember 75-80% or something close to that. I
think it will do well in a belgian strong ale even a dark one. It did
give a nice krausen that held for several weeks in the carboy.  I don't
remember it being a great flocculator but it will start to drop out and
clear after a few weeks when the yeast is done.    
   John Penn


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Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:47:21 -0500
From: Dean Fikar <dfikar at flash.net>
Subject: re. Thanks to all the HBD Folks that came to KC 

> Greetings,
>
> Just wanted to drop a note to all of the HBDers that made their way to the
> AHA Nationals in KC. We had a larger group of people overall then what we
> expected.  I hope you all had a good time. I look forward to seeing you all
> next year in Michigan.
>
> In Brewing,
>
> John R. Weerts
>

Well, John I didn't have a good time, I had a GREAT time!  You, Alberta
Rager, and the other KC area clubs did a wonderful job.   Of course,
Paul and Brian from the AHA did a great job in conjunction with the
clubs.  Kudos also to clubs from some of the neighboring states who
helped man the hospitality room and "Beers Without Borders" bringing
some kick *ss beers for us to enjoy.  You all are also partially
responsible for my three straight days of (thankfully mild) hangovers!

Speaking of mass consumption of alcohol, I can't ever remember being
around more beer and more people having fun without ever once witnessing
bad behavior for days on end.  I suspect that just about any other group
of people at a convention with that much alcohol freely flowing would
have had problems.  Speaks volumes about homebrewers, IMHO.

Al K gave a great talk packed with brewing tips, sharing some of his
vast knowledge with the rest of us.  For any of you who don't have his
book, I highly recommend it (no, Al's not paying me to say this!).  BTW,
good luck with the triplets Al.

It was great to see our own Jethro get inducted into the AHA board of
advisors.  He gave a classy speech which comes as no surprise to us
HBDers.  Sorry I didn't get much of a chance to visit with you there,
Rob.

Lastly, congrats to my neighbor and friend Charlie Gottenkieny for
becoming the first two-time winner of the Homebrewer of the Year award.
Thanks also, Charlie, for helping to bring us a taste of fresh,
unfiltered cask lambic from Cantillion (sp?) Friday nite.  What a treat!

Dean Fikar - drying out in Ft. Worth, TX




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Date: 29 Jun 1999 09:20:56 -0400
From: RCAYOT at solutia.com
Subject: Duvel/golden or triple

     Nathan writes:Greetings.  Duvel is a Golden Strong Ale. 
     
     I was wondering if someone could tell me the difference between a 
     Belgian Strong ale and a Triple?  It seems to me that the distinction 
     is that a Triple is made by a Monastic brewery and a Strong Ale is 
     everything else.  Look at the style guidelines there is very little 
     difference!  (P.S> I am a recognized judge, but this one has always 
     puzzled me!)
     
     Roger Ayotte


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Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:44:56 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: maltotetraose

Dave writes ...

>M&BS (1971-77) p611 1st edition:
It's on pp 785 of the second edition.

[...]
>Unattenuating yeast strains will not
>ferment maltotriose and the
>superattenuating strains will partly
>ferment maltotetraose, [...]

Right - now what is the definition of superattenuating strain ?
A paragraph later they state  NCYC422 is a superattenuating yeast.
>From their web site ...

>National Collection of Yeast Cultures (NCYC)
>Norwich. U.K.
>
>Species: Sporidiobolus pararoseus
>Strain no. 422

***Species: Sporidiobolus pararoseus***
NCYC422 is NOT a brewing yeast.  It no longer classified as an S.Cerevis
yeast at all.and certainly not a lager strain.

On pp 557 they describe crosses of brewing strains and S.diastaticus.
And also reference an JIB article that discusses non-brewing yeasts.

'Yeast technology' describes S.diastat. and S.pombe as "super attenuating",
and also th e"M" yeast. Not beer brewing yeast.

The tabular data is interesting, but since maltotetraose is *completely*
reducible by the actions of the amylases, lack of maltotetraose in beer may
say more about the mash schedule than the yeast.

BTW Dave - you would have found the table in M&BS long ago if you ever
bothered to read my 'Tuborg' post in 1998.

 -S





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Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:31:38 -0400
From: Vintage Cellar <sales at vintagecellar.com>
Subject: gear motor/mash paddle stats

I recently set up a motorized mash mixing unit.  I got the motor from
Surplus Center (I think) 1/10 HP, 90 in/lb torque, 39 RPM.  I think I
paid $35 for it about a year ago.  Plenty of torque.  I can barely slow
down the rotation by grasping the shaft when it is running. Probably
more power than i needed but extra power never hurts. I designed a
paddle similar to one that I saw in an old Brewing Techniques article
with a couple of modifications.  I had a friend of mine weld it for me
out of  a piece 1/16" stainless steel sheet and a 1/2" stainless steel
shaft.  It is a bad mother.  Awsome torroidal movement with no scorching
at all.  Search for mash mixer on their website to find the article.  I
usually mash with 1.1 qts/lb.

Brew on,

Kenny




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Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:51:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
Subject: California State Fair Competition Results

PRESS RELEASE:

Results of the 1999 California State Fair Homebrew Competition

                             and the

1999 California State Fair Commercial/Craft Beer Competition

can be seen at:

http://www.calweb.com/~robertac/gcba

The California State Fair and the Gold Country Brewers Association would
like to thank all who entered beers and all judges who donated their time
and expertise.

Congratulations to all the winners!


Robert Arguello
California State Fair, Home Brew Competition Coordinator
Gold Country Brewers Association
robertac at calweb.com
530-759-1006



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Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 12:17:01 -0400
From: Bruce Susel <vinous19 at idt.net>
Subject: Vinotheque USA will host your club and more!

Hello folks,

	Glad to see the list still up, running, and healthy!  VInotheque
USA is a full-service wholesale distribution company that serves many
home beer and winemaking stores with product.  We are members of the ISB
and HWBTA.  I am the former owner of Stella Brew homebrew supplies.

	We are opening up our facilites to homebrewing clubs in the area, for
those who wish an alternate site to host meetings, or for a change of
pace.

	We are located in Marlboro, MA, close to 495, 90, 20, and 290.

	We can supply ample meeting space and parking for up to 100 people!  We
can also give you a tour of our facility, so you may see inside a
wholesale distribution facility.  We have been also known to give sample
products for evaluation, and can provide some light munchies.

	We try our best to support the industry, and should you feel like
giving us a visit, or having a club meeting at our warehouse, please
feel free to send me e-mail!  There is a map to our facility
on our web page.

Keep up the good work, and remember, "Inspiration Brew Me Brightly"

	Bruce Susel
	VP Operations / US Agent
	Vinotheque USA
	vinous19 at idt.net / http://www.vinotheque.net


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Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:50:38 -0700
From: "John Palmer" <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: What are Micrococci? (Re: Dishwasher sanitizing)

I just got the latest Zymurgy and it has an article by the Fuhrs on the
effectiveness of dishwasher heat-sanitizing.  It seems to me that there was
a nearly identical study a year or two ago that had the same results, but I
dont remember where I saw it.

Anyway to summarize: several of the swabbed bottles exhibited micrococci (=
small, round bacteria) in the aerobic media and yeast and micrococci in the
anaerobic media after being run several times in a dishwasher (full cycle,
heat dry, no detergent).  No pediococcus or lactobacillus were found in any
of the samples. I believe the results also stated that the micrococci were
Gram Positive.

BUT WHAT DOES THIS MEAN??
Is this a good witch or a bad witch? Or is it just a munchkin and not a
witch at all?
How do we know it's a witch? Does it have a long nose? Will it float?
(Sorry for the tangent, but it was the best metaphor for the direction of
my questions)
Okay, fine, this micrococci grew in agar, but would this (thing) actually
grow in beer with alcohol present? Would micrococci spoil beer? 

I can imagine that it would be similar to tell someone "I am dreadfully
sorry sir, but you have insects in your backyard."

John Palmer
brewer, metallurgist, keen naturallist, but not a microbiologist (other
than those cerevisiae things...)



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Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:58:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Clini**** post

Sorry about that post... I was trying to respond to what I thought
was simply a small group of us debating Clini**** offline.  My
network went down in the middle of writing the email and I was unable
to cancel it in time.

Al.


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Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:52:12 -0500
From: Dean Fikar <dfikar at flash.net>
Subject: Cold storage advice needed

Well, I finally took the plunge and bought a 20 cu.  ft. chest freezer
to which I plan to add an external temperature controller.  I will store
my finished beer (ales and lagers) in this freezer in hopes that in I
can increase the shelf life, particularly for beers that are headed to
competition.

My question is what temperature should I store the finished (always
unfiltered) beer at?  My first thought was to set the controller at
"cellar" temperature (50 to55 degrees).  I am wondering, though, if I
should set it as cold as possible, say 32 degrees.  I figure at cellar
temperatures good things would happen with regard to yeast activity and
beer maturation, particularly with ales.  However, any staling reactions
would certainly take place at a slower pace at 32 degrees.

What do you guys think?

Dean Fikar - Fort Worth, Texas



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Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:09:30 +0000
From: Jeff Porterfield <jporterf at erols.com>
Subject: Update on stealth fermentation

Regular readers may recall my post of a couple of weeks ago regarding an 
apparent stealth fermentation of a Wheat Ale.  Several people responded 
overnight, in effect telling me RDWHAHB.  I am pleased to report that 
they were right.  We just tasted the beef after 9 days in the bottle and 
it is the best brew we've done to date (batch 4).

We've got a hoppy pale ale in the primary happily bubbling away right 
now that we're looking forward to completion on.

Thanks to all the great minds at the HBD!!

Jeff Porterfield
Lasting Light Brewery  Columbia, MD


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