---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: Weissheimer Pils Malt (Hazy Kolsch) (Teutonic Brewer)
  One More Yankee Line. (Rod Prather)
  Re: typos ("John A. MacLaughlin")
  NCHF 99 ("DAWNE TRENT & DAVID BRATTSTROM")
  Re: HBD survey (Adam Holmes)
  re where has the irony gone? Pivo, pivo, pivo ("Stephen Alexander")
  Mash Mixer Motors ("BeerLvr")
  RE: Dogma? ("Alan McKay")
  RE: Dogma? /Whose Dogma ? ("Alan McKay")
  Re: Haze problems with Weissheimer Pils? (Paul Shick)
  Basements (Jeff Renner)
  opinions ("Nigel Porter")
  Making the seal for fridge line, answers (Sandra L Cockerham)
  Cooling Wort (Eric Schoville)
  Pre-chilling/undeserved titles/hypersensitivity (Michael Owings)
  That's-not-really-a-berliner-weiss ("Charles T. Major")
  Brewpubs in Lakewood/Denver area (Jerry Cunningham)
  Science ("Paul Niebergall")
  Yankees ("Paul Niebergall")
  Chillin' da Chiller (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Pivo Rules! ("Paul Niebergall")
  Calculating No-sparge recipes (Adam Holmes)
  oxidation (Spencer W Thomas)
  Subject: Survey Says ... (WayneM38)
  AHA/HWBTA Teach a Friend to Homebrew Day (Paul Gatza)


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 16:44:41 -0600
From: Teutonic Brewer <claassen at swcp.com>
Subject: Re: Weissheimer Pils Malt (Hazy Kolsch)

Hi, Dave Humes, et alia,

That haze is probably not yeast in suspension, although Kolsch/Alt yeast is
often powdery/nonfloculent.  A month at 35F should knock out just about
anything. I agree with Greg about being patient with the lagering.  Another
month at 35F (or lower) will cause more of the haze to settle out.  The
little bit of remaining chill haze will clear up by the time your Bierglass
of Kolsch warms up to the proper 8-10C (45-50F) serving temperature.

What kind and how much wheat malt did you use in the Kolsch?  The heavier
wheat proteins will cause a mild haze.  You might consider a step or
step-infusion mash if you're using wheat malt.  Alternatively, try Great
Western white wheat malt since its very low protein content (as far as
wheat malts go) and very full modification make it amenable to single step
infusion mashing.  Even then, the Kolsch I made this last winter using 90%
Weissheimer Pils and 10% GW white wheat malt came out with a mild chill
haze.  When using wheat malt, we homebrewers often just can't get a crystal
clear beer without filtering, lagered or not!

I've been using Weissheimer malts almost exclusively for three years now.
Great stuff.  Weissheimer Pils can be used in single step infusion mashing,
although I usually employ the 40-60-70C step mash recommended by George Fix
in his AOBT.  (Aside: Sad to see him go. Best wishes for him at Clemson.)
When mashing a Weizenbier with >50% wheat malt, I add a 50C step for 20-25
minutes.   If possible with your mash tun arrangement, try 10-15 minutes at
50-55C for your Kolsch assuming 10-20% wheat malt.  BTW, the malty taste
and viscous mouthfeel of my lagers really increased when I dropped the
protein rest when using Weissheimer Pils malt.

If you didn't use any wheat malt in this Kolsch, the pH of your mash and/or
sparge water may have been abnormally high which would leach more tannins
out of the malt and increase the chill haze.  An extremely pale grain bill
like for a Kolsch often requires more involved water treatment.  An
excessive amount of draff (malt dust) passing into the brew kettle from a
poorly set filter bed will also cause a bad, permanent haze (as evidenced
by a recent Hefe-Weizen of mine where a commercially available lauter
screen didn't adequately seal onto the bucket bottom for the umpteenth
time, resulting in that lauter screen getting the heave-ho).

Prost!
Paul Claassen (aka Teutonic Brewer)
Albuquerque, Chile Republic of New Mexico



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Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 19:16:41 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: One More Yankee Line.

In spite of the fact that Yankee Doodle was a New Englander, the south
considers anyone born north of the Mason Dixon line to be a Yankee.  (I
don't know if that includes Canada or not.)

By the way the most common phrase heard by a Yankee south of the Mason Dixon
Line is,  "youah not from 'round heah, ah yuh"!

My question is, what does this have to do with brewing beer, comic relief
????



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Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 20:48:24 -0400
From: "John A. MacLaughlin" <jam at clark.net>
Subject: Re: typos

In HBD #3065 Tim Anderson <timator at yahoo.com> wrote in part:
>I am a firm believer that picking on someone's spelling is extremely
>bad form.
and then proceeded to demonstrate that bad form isn't the half of it---
it can be downright dangerous too.  I bet that most of us who laughed
at this were laughing not at Tim but at memories of times when we too,
like Hamlet's engineer, were hoist by our own petard.

The post also reminded me of a notice posted on a student
bulletin board at a mercifully unidentified college:

            "THESIES TYPED
             Good Speler
             646-2389"

Let's be charitable.  Two of four words are right and there are endeavors
in which a .500 average is spectacularly good.  But I can't help asking two
questions.

1.  Does this person have any better luck with telephone numbers than
with words?
2.  Did this notice draw enough responses to make Question 1 matter?


- --------------------------
decedent n. one who disputed right of way with a machine that outweighed
him.




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Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 21:29:29 -0700
From: "DAWNE TRENT & DAVID BRATTSTROM" <davidb at cdepot.net>
Subject: NCHF 99

The  Second Annual Northern California Homebrewers Festival is to be held
Saturday October 9th at Skyline Park in Napa, California. Last years event
was full of fun, friends, music, speakers, and lots of wonderful Homebrew.
  Like last year, only pre-sale tickets! No ticket sales at the door! Club
reps should be getting tickets in the next two or three weeks. If your are
not affiliated with a club or you believe you are not on the list contact
Alan Atkinson at 1927 Yahome St. Napa, CA 94558  (707) 224-0428. If you 
plan
to camp, and I suggest you do, payment must be made with your ticket 
orders.
  Everyone is encouraged to bring along their finest homebrews and show off
your skills. Last year we had almost all styles to sample from including 
six
or seven milds. Last year, I think everyone brought at least one keg , with
HAZE bringing 75 gallons!  Please bring your receipts so that we can all
learn from them. (If you send me your receipt by Oct. 5, I will print them
up into a little book to handout at the festival.)

Some of this years speakers will be:

Ken Grossman, co-founder and Master Brewer at Sierra Nevada Brewing Co., 
talking about his days of homebrewing through the present.

Dr. MB Rains, Brewer of this years best of show beer in the California
Commercial Beer comp. at the State Fairs, will talk about yeast management
and propagation.

Dave Sapsis, insane brewer and fire bug, will be talking about English
Bitters and cask conditioned beers.

Speaking of English Bitters, we are asking / challenging each club to bring
a keg of their clubs best English Bitters. Cask conditioned would be great!
We will have an informal judging by all attendees. Possibly a formal
evaluation will happen too. Contact me or Dave Sapsis when you arrive with
your bitters so we can direct you where to put it. Friday night we will be
setting up the cask conditioned beers.
  We are encouraging all clubs to provide some type of free munches with
their beer. If you want to sell some type of food at the festival please
contact Alan and let him know what you will sell and how many units you 
will
have on hand.
  We will be having  raffles going on all day. If you would like to donate
anything please contact me, David Brattstrom. A big thank you to those that
have already committed donations, (Yes this is a plug) W-yeast, White Lab,
Fermentap, Beer the Magazine, Horse Brass Pub/ Belmont Station, AHA,
WineSmith, Boeger Winery, C&C Distributing, All About Beer, Beer, Beer, &
more Beer, and several others.

Cheers, and see you in Napa
  David Brattstrom

David, living it up in Plymouth, Brattstrom
 

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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 00:35:52 -0600 (MDT)
From: Adam Holmes <aaholmes at lamar.ColoState.EDU>
Subject: Re: HBD survey

I think the HBD survey is a fantastic idea.  I don't think there is even a
listing on the HBD website as to the number of subscribers to the digest
let alone what our background is.  As far as questions that should be put
in the survey (which I hope someone will make), I'm sure many people will
suggest items such as:  How long have you been brewing? Extract,
all-grain, both?  Favorite homebrew shop/mail order store, etc. 

But here's a couple questions I would really like to see:  1) What is the 
one item you have learned about in the digest that has improved your 
beer/enjoyment of brewing (one sentence answer),  2)  What is the one 
thing that you dislike about the digest (definitely keep answer to one
sentence!) , and 3)  What subject do you wish was discussed more often in
the digest.

Think about how much we'll have to talk about when the results come in for
that!

Just a couple ideas,  I hope more people support this idea of a survey 
that allows us to learn more about each other.  I'm sure many people read 
the digest and may feel too intimidated to post something or feel they
have nothing to add.  I think a survey would be much less initimidating
for all (I don't think it's intimidating to post but I have a hunch that
some may feel that way, I could be wrong).

Happy brewing,

Adam Holmes
Cell and Molecular Biology
Colorado State University
aaholmes at lamar.colostate.edu



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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 06:10:01 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re where has the irony gone? Pivo, pivo, pivo

Robin Griller notes ...

>First, Mr Alexander apparently never noticed that the name Dr Pivo was
>*ironic*. [...]

You apparently skipped the many posts in which Dr.Pivo used the very methods
of science (triangle taste tests, notes on the statistical significance of
results etc) .

>There was no
>claim to authority made through the name; in fact, the point of the
>name was *the exact opposite* of that presumed by Mr Alexender.

Jeff/Dr.Pivo was referring at the time that HIS triangle taste test
experiment of modestly hopped lager using qualified tastes and a HSA vs
control sample of the beer was scientific evidence against HSA as a factor.
The experiment was well constructed and from the report well executed.  The
argument was technical and the "Dr." title (or lack of) goes to the issue of
technical authority.

>their statements about 'unearned' titles and
>'undeserved' authority are simple rudeness.
>To say to someone, I won't
>call you X, because you haven't earned it is insulting.

So shall we call you King Robin just because you like the name !!!  What
nonsense.

>[...] then told someone
>'you're a bum, you don't measure up'.

People 'measure up' when they have obtained the skills their earned titles
imply and NOT when they start using a false title.  Refusing to use a false
earned title is no disrespect.   What you are saying is that anyone who
wants to put Ph.D or M.D. behind his name should do so ?  And to point this
out is an offense to the person ?  To my mind using such a title w/o
credentials is a very serious offense to all the people who have had to work
so hard for them.

Still the Dr.Pivo title was whimsical  pseudonym and not intended to defraud
as I said before.  But it apparently does mislead people about the actual
credentials involved, particularly when discussing a technical topic.  And
there was to my mind no harm in reminding the newer readers that this is a
pseudonym.

Thanks for the lesson in 18th century manners, but in the modern age
unearned titles are an embarrassing and archaic throwback to an era when
people were felt to be differentiable by breeding,  land holding or their
place in a social register (or caste or color).   Perhaps you don't share my
egalitarian POV and prefer to bow to a king or queen - your betters, not
mine.  To the extent that such deference is shown to the individual, and not
to the symbolic figurehead of a nation,  I find the act as appalling as a
lynching.

Earned titles only have a place in identifying people who have attained a
skill or license.  They do not automatically make one person better than
another, nor right nor wrong. [Yet I can point to studies that show that
people do not question their physician in the same way they question other
skilled service providers even though the issues are much more important -
they are intimidated by the title.]  Earned titles should command a certain
respect for expertise, but of course if anyone may use them, as Robin
Griller suggests they are entirely meaningless.

There are at least a half dozen Ph.Ds posting here to my certain knowledge
yet none uses his title.  They understand that an idea or argument is
supported by facts and deductions, not titles.  The title in a relevant area
of expertise may be a prima facia argument in favor of correctness - but no
more.

That so many are offended when I call Dr.Pivo by name and go to such great
lengths to rationalize their feeling of insult says something about the
power of his posts.  In several offline emails with Jeff Irvine since this
incident he has never objected to my calling him by his proper name, and has
even suggested we meet.  That says more about this nonsense and feigned
offense and supposed ridicule to me.

more then enough said,
 -S




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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 06:45:26 -0400
From: "BeerLvr" <Beerlvr at hrfn.net>
Subject: Mash Mixer Motors

: rosses at sprint.ca (Stephen and Carolyn Ross) Wrote:


What website Mike?  I've found some excellent sites

http://www.hom.net/~rogerson/brewpage.html
http://www.flash.net/~arkmay/Mark/rsf_tour/index.html

through the HBD on making RIMS or mixmashers, but something that uses an
Ice Cream motor may be more fitting for my admittedly poor gadget-making
skills.

Any thoughts gadgeteers? TIA,

Stephen

Well I had to go back through my history but I found it.

http://home.ptdprolog.net/~jimala/brewery/mashsystem.html

Mike Pensinger
BeerLvr at hrfn.net




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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:12:43 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: RE: Dogma?


> I do know that the cereal mash thins remarkably and is easier 
> to handle
> (less potential for scorching in the boil, for instance) than 
> all cereal
> does.  I also like to do it for traditional reasons,but I 
> think that there
> has been introduced here convincing theoretical reason 
> besides.  I don't
> think this qualifies as blind recitation or dogma.

I know all the reasons supporting it, too.  BUt to claim that
adding the malt is required, is nothing but recitation.  And
besides, until I originally brought the issue up as a result of
a BT article about 14 months ago or so, I dont think anybody
gave it much of a second thought as to why this was required.
I prove every time I use the stuff that it aint.

But were now flogging a dead horse.  Rather than continue this
debate on adding malt, I suggest we simply set our clocks back 
about 2 months and go through the archives to cover all 
possible angles.

It will save us all a lot of typing ;-)

cheers,
 -Alan

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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 07:29:33 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: RE: Dogma? /Whose Dogma ?



> You should read and listen 
> to everything -
> *and* think critically about it - then select carefully when 
> you act.  You
> certainly should not APPLY commercial brewing methods until 
> you *understand*
> the potential value and problems. 

I think it's pointless to debate this, since minds will not
be changed one way or the other.  At least not those who already
think they are right.  But judging from the above snippit, we
do at least agree to a certain point.

> The biggest difference is  that of scale. 

I totally disagree here.  Well, not totally, but I think the
biggest difference is that one is a BUSINESS, and as such is
run like one.  Priorities are business priorities, not 
necessarily beer priorities.  It's like a high-tech company.
More often than not, priorities are business, and not
technology.

> Of course in the final analysis are right Alan.  You  have 
> nothing to learn
> from  commercial brewers (or farmers) as long as your mind is 
> closed and
> filled with misperceptions.  So close your eyes, plug your 
> ears, stick your
> head deeper in the sand and find the 'page down' key.  

Well, as long as we're telling each other where to stick 
things ... oh, never mind.  I resent being called closed-minded,
and point that finger directly at you, sir.  I read.  I read
a lot, in fact.  And my eyes are wide open, and perfectly 
capable of seeing that which does not apply to me.  Though
yours do seem wide-open, they also seem incapable 
of the same.

cheers,
 -Alan



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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:02:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Paul Shick <SHICK at JCVAXA.jcu.edu>
Subject: Re: Haze problems with Weissheimer Pils?

 


Hello all,

	Dave Humes asks about haze problems with his Kolsch,
using mostly Weissheimer Pils malt.  Dave, I had some questions
about this malt, too, about 6 months ago, because the Weissheimer
web page had only very sketchy data back then.  Several brewers,
both professional and amateur, responded with suggestions for 
mashing regimes that ranged from 4 step decoction/infusions to 
single infusions.  I decided to go the easy route and have made 
20 gallons of German Pilsener and 5 gallons of Maibock with a 25kg 
bag, all with basically single infusions.  All of these have turned 
out absolutely clear in fairly short order, so I would not suggest
that a protein rest is necessary with Weissheimer Pils.

	My mashing regime has involved doughing in at 152-155F with
about 1.3 qts/lb, resting for 30+ minutes, then beginning gentle
heating and recirculation (with a pump) to raise the temperature to
158F  at  45 or so minutes, then 164F  at  60 minutes.  Again, all three
batches (two 10 gallon batches of Pilsener and 5 gallons of Maibock)
turned out crystal clear.  

	So Dave, unless your malt came from a different shipment than
mine, the problem must lie elsewhere.  Some possibilities that come to
mind are:
	* themometer problem (causing conversion difficulties)
	* pH problem (causing conversion difficulties or hot break
		problems)
	* too hot sparge water (leaching tannins or bursting starch
		globules at runoff)
	
	Having said all this, I had a similar problem with a batch
of Vienna a year or so back.  I did a 140F-155F step infusion with a
grist involving Weyermann Munich and Pils, and had a haze that took
3+ months to clear.  A Dortmunder done with a similar grist (less
Munich, more Pils) at 131F-152F cleared very quickly.  I took this
as a data point in the Great Protein Rest Debate, but I've since 
changed my mind.  The Weissheimer Pils has almost exactly the same 
specs as the Weyermann did, so I think that there's more to the
picture than temperature rests.  

	My money is on the pH.  I've been a bit more aggressive about
using CaCl_2 in the mash water and phosphoric acid in the sparge water
in recent brewing sessions, in response to my earlier haze problems.
In particular, I assumed that the higher kilning of the Munich malt
would cause it to have a bit more acidity than Pils malt, and I 
lowered my water treatment in the Vienna.  This probably explains the
haze problem I encountered there (although it did clear eventually.)

	So, Dave, I guess I took a lot of bandwidth to avoid answering
your question!  I'll put in another plug for the Weissheimer malts,
though.  The lagers I've made with the Weissheimer malts have been the
best I've made so far.  There's a very deep malty flavor that's a
real joy to roll around on the tongue.  Good stuff. 

   			Paul Shick 
 			Basement brewing in Cleveland Hts OH

 



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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:09:47 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Basements

Mark Tumarkin <mark_t at ix.netcom.com> wrote

>That may not be necessary for some of you with
>cool basements (damn Yankees!)

Which brings up a somewhat non-brewing question (traffic is low, though)
that has bothered me for years - why aren't basements standard in all of
the country (excepting areas with rock right below the surface or high
water tables)?  They add very little to the cost of a house and double the
square footage in the case of one story houses, or by 50% in the case of
two stories.  They are virtually standard around.  Is it just a regional
cultural thing?  It would hardly seem that way given the great internal
immigration this country has seen in its history.  Yet they seem to be the
exception in the south and the west.  Any ideas?

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:24:08 +0100
From: "Nigel Porter" <nigel at sparger.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: opinions

Don't forget when everybody is slagging of each others opinions that 
there are no hard and fast rules of brewing, just that some methods 
work better for some brewers than others.

Somebody somewhere once said something very similar to this - ask 
100 brewers about the way to do things and you will get 100 different 
answers.

Worth remembering I think.

Nigel


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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 08:56:45 -0500
From: Sandra L Cockerham <COCKERHAM_SANDRA_L at Lilly.com>
Subject: Making the seal for fridge line, answers



**Michael, Mark and Chris gave warnings that drilling into the side could hit
a refrigerant line
and ruin the fridge.  Luckily, I still have the original booklet for the
Kenmore and this isn't
a problem.
**Eric said silicone sealant would do a good job sealing.
**Dick and Greg said to use the thick little rubber grommets common in
electronics.  These
little black, rubber donut looking things are put in holes drilled in sheet
metal so that the wires
fed through the holes won't be cut by the sharp edges of the sheet metal.
(They provide
a more finished look, IMHO.)
**Lee said his friends had used a product called mortite, a flexible putty
like material.
**Mark and Michael recommended caulk.
**Bryan used copper tubing (and thus drilled a smaller hole in the fridge) and
then connected
gas lines on either side of the tubing.  He didn't bother to seal this
installation.
**Paul said to drill the hole to fit a minikeg bung.  Put the tubing through
the bung first, then
insert the bung into the hole drilled into the fridge (might require some keg
lube).
**Roy used low pressure expansion foam.
**Chester used a product called GOOP.  It is a clear, colorless adhesive
sealant that adheres
to more things than silicone does.  It also remains flexible.

I was also advised that if I was mounting tap handles on the door to put them
low enough as
to not impair the freezer from opening.   I wasn't planning to go this route,
but the advise might
save someone else some grief !
I also liked the info posted directly to the HBD about utilizing the tap
fitting that goes though the fridge
for use as part of the CO2 line.
Thanks for the input fellow HBDers!  I am leaning towards the rubber grommet
with a little silicone to
complete the seal, but am evaluating the options carefully!
cheers,
Sandy




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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:28:42 -0500
From: Eric Schoville <eschovil at us.oracle.com>
Subject: Cooling Wort

I, too, suffer from warm tap water.  Right now it is running
about 85 degrees Fahrenheit.  In order to chill my beers, I
have come up with the following:

1) Use my immersion chiller to chill to around 100 degrees
F.
2) Pump ice water through the immersion chiller to chill to
desired temperature.

I go through about 40 lbs of ice (~$4.50) for each batch. 
The ice water is held in a cooler and is recirculated by a
submersible pump.  

Using this method, I can chill all the way down to the low
fifties for my lagers.  Works great!

Eric Schoville
Flower Mound, TX
http://home1.gte.net/rschovil/beer


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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:42:31 GMT
From: mikey at swampgas.com (Michael Owings)
Subject: Pre-chilling/undeserved titles/hypersensitivity

Pre chilling:

Pre-chilling:

Around here the water can hit the mid 90's (F) in the summer, and is
fairly warm even in cooler months. I use a 50 Ft home-made immersion
chiller. The inlet is hooked to a Little Giant submersible pump. The
pump goes into a tub of water fed by the garden hose. I cool the wort
down to 90-115 F with uncooled water, which usually takes about 10
minutes or so, depending upon the time of year. I then add ice to the
tub to bring the wort down to lager pitching temps (in my case 47-50
F). This can take an additional 15 to 35 minutes, the latter in the
dead of summer. In the summer, it also takes a LOT of ice, up to 12
small bags. Of course, outside temps might be 98-100 F. I brew lagers
exclusively, so getting the wort very cool is pretty much required; I
don't like leaving unpitched wort to cool in my not-overly-clean
fermentation fridge. Not to be dogmatic or anything.  Also, when the
temp of the water exiting the chiller has dropped below the tap water
temp, I shut off the garden hose and recirculate the cooling water
till the chilling is done. Makes things a bit less messy and wastes
less water.

Undeserved titles:

Like Loretta, I have also grown uncomfortable with my own name. From
now on, you must all refer to me as "The Artist Formerly Known as
Kap'n Salty" or risk my indignation. You wouldn't like me when I'm
indignant. Of course you probably wouldn't like me anyway, but that's
not really the point.

Hypersensitivity:

Kris_G._Mueller at umit.maine.edu writes
> It is clear to me now that the people who
> responded are hyper-sensitive to other people thinking about the
> implications of sexism and other biases.

But isn't your hypersensitivity to my hypersensitivity to your
hypersensitivity to the sexist implications of dishwashing really just
another form of sexism even more virulent than the original? Ha! I
think you have to admit I've pretty much got you there. Now run off
and make some beer...

***********************************
Go ahead ... try the sauce. The sauce is good. The sauce 
will make you YOUNG again...


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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:12:18 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: "Charles T. Major" <ctmajor at samford.edu>
Subject: That's-not-really-a-berliner-weiss

I bottled my berliner Weiss last week and haven't tasted 
the conditioned product yet, but the hydrometer sample was 
disappointing.  I tasted no sourness whatsoever, despite a 
5-hour mash and no boil.  What I do seem to have made is 
the closest thing to Lite beer that I ever hope to make: OG 
1.036, FG 1.001, and no perceptible bitterness.

After reading last week's posts, I think I went wrong in 
several ways:
	I mashed in at 150F, rather than using a lower temp 
rest to favor the lactobacilli.
	I sparged with fairly hot sparge water (~180F), 
which may have further reduced the lactobacillus population.
	I pitched a good quantity of yeast (3 pkgs 
Nottingham) and aerated well (30 mins of filtered air from 
an aquarium pump), so the yeast population overwhelmed tha 
bacteria.  If nothing else, I have had a good lesson in the 
importance of a large, healthy culture of yeast in keeping 
unwanted infections at bay.

Regards,
Tidmarsh Major
Birmingham, Alabama



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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:14:17 -0400
From: Jerry Cunningham <gcunning at census.gov>
Subject: Brewpubs in Lakewood/Denver area

Hi - I'll be in Denver (actually Lakewood) in a few weeks. Any
recommendations for good brewpubs? Sorry if this is off-topic, but this
is THE place to get advice from serious beer geeks!

Thanks,

Jerry



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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:29:00 -0500
From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject:  Science

Wow, the HBD is great, so many people and opinions are so active these 
days.  Combined with the added bonus of the holy trinity of Dogma (Al K,  
DePiro, and Burley) being on vacation for the last couple of weeks makes 
this a truly special time in HBD history.  Anyway, I figured that I might 
as well jump in with both feet.

Science:
Please do not confuse quotes from a brewing texts or multi-syllable 
chemical names with science.  The HBD is not science and it will never be 
science because home brewers are unable to measure anything to any degree 
of accuracy and then make the measurements enough times to develop a 
meaningful data set.  And even if this did happen, it would be extremely 
BORING because the things that we can successfully measure at home are 
just not that exciting.

Does anyone remember a few months back when somebody posted an excellent 
article about acidifying sparge water.  What this person did is add lactic 
acid, a few drops at a time, to a known volume of sparge water and then 
take multiple pH measurements with a hand held pH meter.  It was a true 
scientific experiment that was well designed, executed, and reported.  
IMO, it was probably the best example of science that has ever been posted 
to the HBD (at least in the 5 years that I have been reading it).  Data 
was given regarding the number of drops of lactic acid with respect to the 
pH of the water.  Opinions, B.S., and unsupported evidence were completely 
left out of the discussion (from the style of the article, I suspect that 
the writer was a graduate student of some scientific discipline).  Anyway, 
the conclusion of the experiment was (drum roll please....):  Adding 
lactic acid to water lowers the pH.  BFD!!

Some of you might say that the data was interesting because it will allow 
people to calculate how much acid that they may have to add to their 
sparge water to achieve a certain pH.  But who the hell really cares.  We 
already know that acid lowers pH and if you are trying to acidify your 
water by adding a pre-determined volume or weight of acid without the aid 
of a pH meter, you are an idiot.  Since it is a foregone conclusion that 
you need a pH meter to make accurate pH adjustments to your water, and you 
only need a tiny amount acid to make adjustments, the results of the 
experiment, aside from being extremely boring, are utterly useless.  It 
would be different if we made huge amounts of beer and we needed huge 
amounts of really expensive acid to do so.  That way we could use the 
information to buy a tanker car of acid and optimize its use.  But, that 
is not what we are doing here.

The HBD consists of an overwhelming collection of personal opinions and a 
few actual observations concerning the brewing of beer at home.  Most of 
the opinions are not even based on first hand knowledge of a process or 
the result of an actual (read valid) scientific experiment.  They are 
simply passed down from home brewer to home brewer, or culled from books 
and various articles.

BTW, I love science and I  apply it every day in my job, I just dont see a 
lot of it being posted here.  So please dont think that I am some whiny 
artist with an anti-technology agenda.  I know what science is and I know 
that I can brew great beer at home with out it. 



Paul Niebergall
Burns & McDonnell
pnieb at burnsmcd.com
"Illegitimis non carborundum"


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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:29:33 -0500
From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject:  Yankees

Yankees:
A yankee is anyone that a southerner calls a yankee.  Plain and simple (it 
does help if the person on the receiving end of the term lives slightly 
north of the person applying the term though).  Trying to rationalize the 
definition of the term yankee with a southerner who has just called you 
one is like trying to resolve the Clinitest debate in a couple of hours 
over a few home brews.  It aint gonna happen.  Case in point.  When I 
moved from Missouri to Tennessee, they called me a yankee.  When I went to 
South Carolina and told people that I was visiting from Tennessee, they 
called me a yankee.  I spent a summer in South Carolina (at my folks 
house) and took a trip to Florida at the end of the summer.  Guess what 
they called me in Florida when I told them that I was from South Carolina? 
 Anyway, you get the idea.  Arguing is pointless.  I quickly found out 
that the best way to avoid the term was to speak with a drawl and sprinkle 
my speech with words such as yonder, y'all, and ye hah.  Nobody will 
question you as long as you sound like you are from the south.  It has 
been over 10 years since I left Tennessee and moved back to Missouri, and 
I still slip into a bit of a southern dialect after a few home brews.


Paul Niebergall
Burns & McDonnell
pnieb at burnsmcd.com
"Illegitimis non carborundum"


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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:36:33 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: Chillin' da Chiller

I use the immersion chiller for about 15 minutes, then switch from the city
water to the circulating ice water pump until the wort gets to the
temperature desired.

I have rigged up an inexpensive fish tank submersible pump (about $25) and
place it into the ice water bucket, then the output is connected to a hose
with a plastic male faucet fitting.  This is then connected instead of the
garden hose and circulation from the chiller back into the ice water bucket
continues until:

    * I achieve the desired temperature.  Unlike other methods, I can
continue to circulate as long as I can feed ice to the bucket, and the wort
temperature will continue to drop until it is almost as cold as the ice
water.

    * I run out of ice.  You will really notice a huge difference if you
place your bucket 2/3 full of water into your fridge the day before and get
it nice and cold, then when you add ice, it only takes about half the amount
you would use if the water was at hose water temp (I learned this trick from
a local brewmaster/homebrewer).

For the first 15 minutes, the hose water is discharged into a 30 gallon
Rubbermaid garbage can, then just about the time the can is almost full, it
is time to switch to the ice circulation.  I then use this water (warmed) to
help rinse and soak brewing equipment until I get around to cleaning it.
Next day, I water the plants with this water, I put the fish pump into the
can, then connect the host to the output connector, and turn on the pump and
water with my hose nozzle.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 10:41:35 -0500
From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject: Pivo Rules!

Dr. Pivo:
Dr. Pivo is (was) without a doubt one of the finest contributors that the 
HBD has ever known.  I feel sorry for those of you who can not see the 
value of his posts and are not amused with his deft sense of irony.

Paul Niebergall
Burns & McDonnell
pnieb at burnsmcd.com
"Illegitimis non carborundum"


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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:45:53 -0600 (MDT)
From: Adam Holmes <aaholmes at lamar.ColoState.EDU>
Subject: Calculating No-sparge recipes

 While thinking about planning no-sparge batches using my existing brewing
software (ProMash, I highly reccommend)  I came up with the following
thought: If you have done normal fly-sparge batches in the past and taken
good notes you should have a good idea of your brewery's efficiency (75%
for example). Now do a couple no-sparge batches (use Jefferey Donovan's 
No-sparge page to help plan it: www.promash.com/nosparge.html ) and you
should have a new "no-sparge efficiency" (let's say it turns out to be
50%). 

Now plan your recipes using your brew software using either your
Sparge (75%) or No-Sparge (50%) efficiency number depending on what type
of sparging you will do. Your hop amounts would remain unchanged for
either method and IBU values would not be out of whack using this method. 

Batch sparging could have yet another efficiency #.  I would suspect that
there is a good starting value for this no-sparge efficiency (just like
most people suggest beginner all-grainers to use 70-75% to plan this first
few recipes or until they know their own efficiency).
 
Do you see any glaring errors with this method? You brewers that
have taken good notes on sparge vs. no-sparge batches should be able to
determine if this is a practical idea that works or not and could report
back (my notes were lost when my computer crashed). 

Adam Holmes
Cell and Molecular Biology
Colorado State University



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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:35:21 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: oxidation

>>>>> "Stephen" == Stephen Alexander <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> writes:

    Stephen> My *opinion* is that oxidation flavor problems (oxidized
    Stephen> oil/fatty acid flavors, paper/cardboard flavor, 'dumbing'
    Stephen> taste, sherry flavors and excess aldehydes) ranks as a
    Stephen> more serious HB problem than defective fermentation (not
    Stephen> infection) off flavors, yet is less well understood.
    Stephen> Some beer flavor changes are not oxidative in nature, but
    Stephen> IMO most "past it's peak" flavor effects can be
    Stephen> attributed to an oxidative process.  Perhaps I'm more
    Stephen> sensitive to this problem than most.

I have a bit of "anecdotal" evidence to support this contention:  This
year, I judged the Old Ale/Strong Scotch Ale category in the NHC 2nd
round.  You would expect that the beers in the 2nd round would be of
fairly high quality, and this was indeed true.  However, of the 11 (I
think it was) beers that I judged, the majority had some evidence of
oxidation, ranging from a winy/sherry-like aroma and flavor to
paper/cardboard, at least to my nose and palate.  In some it was much
more pronounced than in others, but it was present in nearly all of
them.

Now, one would expect that the beers in this category would have a bit
of age on them, so a certain amount of oxidation may be expected, and
in some cases welcomed (at least the winy/sherry character).  But for
most of the beers, it did NOT contribute to the drinkability and
enjoyment of the beer.  (This was particularly true of the Strong
Scotch Ales, in which such flavors are definitely undesirable and
are destructive to the desired profile.)

By using "best practices" (not a term I'm fond of, but it does make a
point) oxidation defects can be reduced to a minimum, even in quite
old beer.  Another anecdote: the other night, several of us had the
pleasure to sample a 6-year-old bottle of Orval, which had been
hand-carried from the brewery in 1993, and stored in a cellar (in
Michigan) since then.  It was definitely past the "best by" date (Jan
1998, as I recall).  There was a touch of oxidation (cardboard,
mostly) in the flavor, but the beer still had a lot of character and
was quite drinkable.  By this time, the Brett characteristics had
grown to dominate, but hop aroma and flavor, and malt flavors were
also still in evidence.  Clearly, this beer was brewed and bottled
with great care.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)


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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:48:16 EDT
From: WayneM38 at aol.com
Subject: Subject: Survey Says ...



On Sat, 10 Jul 1999 08:16:59 -0700 Demonick <demonick at zgi.com> wrote to 
answer John Palmer's post:

>>I have an idea. What if Pat and Mark work up a Survey form on the HBD
>website that we all could fill out to describe how we brew? You know,
>whether we use extract or all grain, heat sanitize, iodophor, bleach,
>couterflow or immersion chill or waterbath, primarily ales or lagers,
>keg or bottle, everything!

I think this is a great idea!  Way to go, John Palmer. 
>snip<

Details of water, starters, aeration, temperature, carbonation.  
Where in your process do you rely on the magic of plaid?  Barefoot?
Heating systems.  Incantations.  Bottling/kegging.  

If the idea passes muster with the masters I'd volunteer to do the
first-pass on starters.

Domenick Venezia>>

To the Potential Survey Crew:

I have a copy of Ray Daniels book 'Designing Great Beers' right in front of 
me and the part that is most useful feature IMHO is the excellent 'incidence 
and proportions' charts.
I can easily compare my methods/recipes with NHC award winners at a glance 
and ingredients with other standards.

A similar format for the techniques, procedures, equipment, etc., could be a 
useful tool for all of us.

This would allow brewers who read this digest, but do not post, to have their 
say on what works for them without worrying about being chastised for less 
than perfect techniques.

This survey/data collection might also provide some fresh kindling wood to 
renew old fires.....

Wayne
Big Fun Brewing
Milwaukee


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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:34:24 -0600
From: Paul Gatza <paulg at aob.org>
Subject: AHA/HWBTA Teach a Friend to Homebrew Day

Most of us started homebrewing at the urging of a friend. Can you recall
your excitement of making your first batch of homebrew? How about the
anticipation of waiting to crack that first beer after you bottled it? I
brewed my first batch alone, except for several calls to George and
Nancy at Home Sweet Homebrew in Philadelphia. I learned in my homebrew
supply shop days that no brewing questions are dumb ones. Do you keep
the red cap on the airlock during fermentation or do you take it off?
Can you reuse bottle caps? We were all newbies once. I am sure many
of my beginner mistakes could have been corrected and problems solved if
another brewer was there to help guide me into the hobby. Most of the
advances in my brewing are directly the result of learning the
techniques first-hand from other brewers.

I would like to encourage all brewers to put in a day of service to the
industry by teaching a friend  how to brew on September 18th, 1999. For
many brewers, mid-September kicks off the fall brewing season, where all
over the country brewers are dusting off equipment  and gearing up for
several batches. Instead of just hopping on down to the local homebrew
supply shop on your own, grab a buddy and show her or him the ropes of
what equipment is used and how to select ingredients. Your service to
the industry will not only be fun, but brewing is always easier when
more than one person does the cleaning and work part of brewing. 

Teach a Friend to Homebrew Day is a joint project of the AHA and the
Home Wine and Beer Trade Association (HWBTA). AHA represents
homebrewers; HWBTA represents retailers and wholesalers. Your
participation in Teach a Friend to Homebrew Day benefits all
homebrewers, as well as the people who make their business in
homebrewing. The more brewers we have across the country, means
wholesalers can stock a wider variety of products, retailers will have
the customers needed to order in bulk, maintain a business and be able
to diversify their product lines, the AHA has more potential members to
become a stronger advocate for the hobby, homebrew clubs also get more
potential members and homebrewers get more help around the brew kettle
and the beer fridge. Everybody wins. 

My Stanley Cup bet with my neighbor Rose was that if the Sabres won, I
would teach her to make beer. Since the Stars won, I will be teaching
her to make mead.  Using the model of the Big Brew, we will be signing
up participants and cataloguing the information on
http://www.beertown.org. We will also make a press release template for
anyone wanting to generate local media awareness about homebrewing.
- -- 
Paul Gatza
Director
American Homebrewers Association	(303) 447-0816 x 122
736 Pearl Street			(303) 447-2825 -- FAX
PO Box 1679				paulg at aob.org -- E-MAIL
Boulder, CO 80306-1679			info at aob.org -- AOB INFO
U.S.A.					http://www.beertown.org -- WEB


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---