---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  On Weizens (Teutonic Brewer)
  Re: effluvia and Ice Cream Mixer motors (Jim & Paula Adwell)
  wort chilling with a dehumidifier(?!) (Jim & Paula Adwell)
  keg physics (Scott Murman)
  michiganders and yankees ("St. Patrick's")
  Berliner Weisse and raspberry? (Dick Dunn)
  Results of My Aeration at Bottling Experiment ("Dennis Johnson")
  Lallemand, CABA & The AHA (Darryl Newbury)
  Denver Brewpubs (Matt Dickson)
  mash-out help (John_E_Schnupp)
  Secret Squirrels and Charlie P is Gunna Cop It!! ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  Aeration ("David M. Campbell")
  Is there a Dr in the house? ("Alan McKay")
  Why no basement? ("Kelly")
  Praise beer! New Glarus Copper Kettle wheat ("Jim Kingsberg")
  Yeast health question (Eric Reimer)
  re:prechilling (Matthew Comstock)
  Basements (Dan Listermann)
  Narrow range pH test strips (Eric Reimer)
  2000 AHA NHC: MIY2K (Pat Babcock)
  Pumps ("Frank J. Russo")
  titles ("Paul Niebergall")
  re: warm tap water in chillers... (Steven Sanders)
  Aplication of Science and Big Boys Techniques ("Paul Niebergall")
  pLambic Brewing (Matthew Arnold)
  Surveys (Michael Rose)
  re: where has all the irony gone? pivo pivo pivo (Robin Griller)
  Basements (Greg Tucker)
  oxidation: measurable? ("Bayer, Mark A")
  from Propane to Natural Gas ("John Stegenga")
  Brewpubs in Lakewood/Denver area ("Charles T. Major")
  RE:Making the seal for fridge line (John Wilkinson)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:02:42 -0600
From: Teutonic Brewer <claassen at swcp.com>
Subject: On Weizens

Hi Dave Riedel and the HBD crowd,

Some thoughts on brewing a Dunkelweizenbier from a self-professed,
traditionalist, German style beer brewer and Reinheitsgebot fascist.
Please take my suggestions with a few grains of salt (preferably in the
form of a Bavarian style Pretzel :-) since I tend to be slightly extreme in
the lengths to which I will go.

I find that a decoction or two increases the bready character of my
Weizens.  Weizens are the only beer that I feel really benefits from a
decoction, and they're the only thing I (still) decoct.  Not to say that
infusion or step mashing won't produce a fine product, so please no fiery
arrows from the decoction vs infusion vs RIMS partisans.  Try a single
decoction between the 50C protein rest and the 62-64C saccharification
reset, or between the saccharification rest and the 70-72C dextrinization rest.

As far the malt bill, go easy on the dark roasted malts.  Most of the color
comes from Munich and medium to dark crystal malts.  If you add any roasted
malts at all, try one to two ounces chocolate malt per 5 gallons, just
enough to add a _subtle_ roastiness.  So many of the Dunkelweizens that
I've had the (mis)pleasure to judge have tasted like a cross between a
Dunkelweizen and a Porter.

As far as hopping a _Dunkelweizen_ goes, I concurr with Michael William
Macaeyka's advice of a single noble hop addition at the first of the boil.
OTOH, I'll hop a pale Weizen with three equal additions at 60, 40 and 20
minutes to go in the boil.  I use any low alpha noble stuff for the first
two additions, and prefer Tettnanger for the third.

Weizens also benefit from sour mash in a big way.  Try a Franziskaner
Hefe-Weizen and taste the crisp lactic acidity that makes it so refreshing.
 I've used sour mash for years in my Weizens, and those who have judged my
Weizens love it although none have ever been able to name what I did!  I
sour mash up to 15% of the Pils malt for 24-48 hours for a pale Weizen and
8-10% for a dark Weizen.  The 1993 Special issue of Zymurgy has an article
from Greg Noonan on sour mash.  If you'd like to know how I do it, drop me
a private note.

I have found 64-66F produces the most balanced Weizens using Wyeast 3068
when pitching the usual homebrew sized starter.  Fermenting a little colder
seems to increase the clove character (or maybe it suppresses the other
esters and phenols so the clove is more dominant), but that requires
pitching more yeast.  Which you can do if you repitch, of course.
 
I'll save a couple quarts of wort from the brew kettle to use instead of
corn sugar for priming at bottling.  I'll either pressure can (rarely) or
boiling water can (usually) the wort to preserve it.  It gives better
character, a better head and big time lace than does corn sugar, at least
in my experience for what it's worth.  If you want to know how I calculate
how much to prime, drop me a private note again (BTW, this issue was
discussed in HBD a couple weeks ago).

Prost!
Paul Claassen (aka Teutonic Brewer)
Albuquerque, Chile Republic of New Mexico



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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:38:24 -0400
From: Jim & Paula Adwell <jimala at servtech.com>
Subject: Re: effluvia and Ice Cream Mixer motors

>What website Mike?  I've found some excellent sites
>through the HBD on making RIMS or mixmashers, but >something that uses an
>Ice Cream motor may be more fitting for my admittedly poor >gadget-making
>skills.

Mike could be refering to my website:

http://home.ptdprolog.net/~jimala/brewery/

as I use an ice creamer maker motor and paddle.  It works very nicely in a
5 gallon plastic bucket.  It required a bit of modification, as originally
the paddle was stationary and the ice cream bucket turned.  The mods
require a small nail, some odds and ends of wood and plywood, a length of
1/2" wooden dowel, and a small SS hose clamp.  I leave the details as an
exercise to the reader (heh, heh).  It's not hard to figure out, though.
Cheers, Jim

Jim & Paula Adwell
jimala at ptdprolog.net
jimala at servtech.com
jimala at apical.com
adwell at uno.cc.geneseo.edu
http://www.servtech.com/public/jimala/


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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:52:17 -0400
From: Jim & Paula Adwell <jimala at servtech.com>
Subject: wort chilling with a dehumidifier(?!)

I just bought a dehumidifier at a garage sale (for $10, and it works, too)
with the intention of using it to cool a fermentation chamber of some sort
for use in the summer in my garage so I don't have to lug carboys into the
house, or worse yet, down the stairs to the basement.  After removing the
case and carefully separating the heating and cooling coils, it looks like
something could be done along these lines rather easily, and cheaply.
After reading the recent postings about the problems of cooling wort with
tepid tap water, perhaps one could somehow pre-chill one's tap water with a
dehumidifier.  Just a thought.
Anyone out there have any experience in converting a dehumidifier into a
chiller/refrigerator?
Cheers, Jim

Jim's Brewery Pages:
http://home.ptdprolog.net/~jimala/brewery/


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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 16:05:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: keg physics


I just started using a keg setup.  Before I get out my hacksaw, is
there a (good) reason why the gas tube extends so far down into the
keg (about 2")?  It seems to me this just wastes otherwise useful
space for storing beer.

 -SM- 



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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:30:39 -0500
From: "St. Patrick's" <stpats at bga.com>
Subject: michiganders and yankees


It's funny to see how the simple remark "Michiganders and other yankees" in
my earlier post can generate such conversation.

Soamwhoan ben cudrin' mheah widm tan'bfust drang.
		--- from Dave Barry's "The Thomas hearings, unexpurgated"

Yankees can email any southerner to interpret this.

I should confess my own sins.  I am married to a native Michigander born on
12 mile road outside the Soo (close to Dafter).

Deah wheah etn lonsh yep?

Lynne O'Connor
St. Patrick's of Texas
Brewers Supply
http://www.stpats.com
stpats at bga.com
 512-989-9727
 512-989-8982 facsimile


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Date: 12 Jul 99 18:18:27 MDT (Mon)
From: rcd at raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: Berliner Weisse and raspberry?

I've heard of the custom of adding a dash of raspberry juice to a Berliner
Weisse.  Having never been that far east, I don't quite know...Could some-
one confirm or correct that it is specifically straight raspberry juice
that is used, as opposed to a raspberry syrup (i.e., sweetened)?

It sounded interesting, esp. since it's tediously hot here and we're
overrun with raspberries.
- ---
Dick Dunn          rcd at talisman.com          Hygiene, Colorado  USA
(40 12 6 N, 105 10 42 W, or NE 1/4 of NW 1/4 of S25 T3N R70W, for Jeff)


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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:14:31 -0700
From: "Dennis Johnson" <pinetownd at volcano.net>
Subject: Results of My Aeration at Bottling Experiment

I've noticed a few posts lately about dogma and frivolous subjects, so
here's my contribution to counter both topics.  I have been brewing at home
for ten years or so and have always been a little compulsive in my efforts
to reduce aeration during bottling.  A few months ago, I decided to stop
useless worrying and to do an experiment instead.

While bottling one of my "standard" pale ales using the spring-loaded
plastic stick bottler, I "sacrificed" one bottle of my precious brew.
Instead of bottling normally, I poured it back and forth, from one beer
bottle to another, using a funnel, half a dozen times.  The beer foamed
excessively and made even a bigger mess than usual.  I'm convinced I mixed
lots of air into the beer.

I bottled and marked the test bottle.  I had almost two cases of "controls"
bottles to compare it against.  Six weeks after bottling, I did a "blind"
taste test between the test bottle and one of my control bottles.  I fully
expected it to be undrinkable, but I couldn't tell any difference between
the two.

There are a number of possible explanations:

1.  The "momily" we've always heard regarding the evils of aerating during
bottling is a myth.

2.  I have such lousy taste that I couldn't recognize an aerated beer if it
hit me on the head.

3.  There was something unusual about my recipe or my methods that masked
the effect.  (Maybe all the bottles were aerated?)

My conclusion is that for me, and for my recipes and methods, even fairly
aggressive aeration during bottling has no perceptible influence on my beer.
In the future, I'll still try to avoid aeration, but I'm no longer going to
worry about it.  Of course, YMMV, but I'd enjoy hearing others' results from
similar experiments.  Just remember to do a "blind" tasting or otherwise you
may unconsciously bias the results.

Dennis



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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 00:03:06 +0000
From: darryl at sagedesign.com (Darryl Newbury)
Subject: Lallemand, CABA & The AHA

As a officer of the Canadian Amateur Brewers Association, I think I should
add my 1-1/2 cents worth -- Canadian money you know. Firstly, Lallemand
has been supportive of our organization. Clayton Cone was a hit as one of
our speakers at this year's Great Canadian Homebrew Conference and offered
Lallemand's future assistance to our organization. 

Further, CABA is a volunteer run organization with a much smaller
membership than the AHA, therefore any promotional gifts to us would
likely be much smaller, although a scholarship to Siebels, though
unlikely, would not be turned down (hint to Rob). That being said there
are many great reasons for Canadians to join CABA (hint to Robin). A good
newsletter, several great events & competitions in different parts of the
country with a very reasonable $21 Canadian membership fee. 

At $38 US, close to $60 Canadian dollars, I personally find the cost of
AHA membership kind of steep, especially since many of its activities
don't effect me. That being said, with Detroit being just a 5 hour drive
from Toronto, 3 hours when the President of CABA is driving, if the
program for next year's AHA conference looks good -- I suspect there will
be some interest from CABA members in Southern Ontario. So to those who
are organizing the event, all the best, hope to be there sharing a few
pints with you.

Cheers, Darryl Newbury
CABA Board of Directors & CABA Times Editor
darryl at sagedesign.com	



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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 02:15:22 -0600
From: Matt Dickson <stuka at mindspring.com>
Subject: Denver Brewpubs


- ------------------------------



Jerry, 

You're in luck -- there are *plenty* of brewpubs not only in Denver, but in
the surrounding areas and in the mountains close by as well. There is a
high concentration of brewpubs in Lower Downtown ("LoDo"), all within
walking distance of each other.
If you take in a Rockies game while you are here. don't forget to stop adn
have a brew at the Sandlot brewery, right on the grounds at teh ballpark --
ffrom thhere, after the game, jjust mosey across Blake street to the
Breckenridge Brewery for a nice Oatmeal Stout....ffrom there, head
south....don't forget to stop by the Falling Rock for a generous selection
of of beers -- they have 69 on tap....it isn't a brewpub, but it's got the
best selection of international draft Biers around....then you can head
over to the Wynkoop Brewery, the Chop House, Jeeez, teh list goes on and
on......

Also, the 5280 Roadhouse and Brewery just opened up in Littleton, fairly
close to Lakewood. It's at 5798 South Rapp Street, (303) 795-9104.

My eperience has been that most breweries in the area brew pretty much
strictly ales as opposed to lagers....<sigh>.....

Matt

Jerry wrote:
- ----------


Hi - I'll be in Denver (actually Lakewood) in a few weeks. Any
recommendations for good brewpubs? Sorry if this is off-topic, but this
is THE place to get advice from serious beer geeks!

Thanks,

Jerry



- ------------------------------




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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 00:39:03 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: mash-out help

Brewers,

I just started all-grain brewing last fall and have been doing ok.
Me beers have been turning out great and I even won with one of them
in a local competitions.

I have a question that I've never really gotten answered and have been
wondering about it as I plan my next batch (strawberry watermelon, I
canned the rhubarb idea for now).

I do infusion mashing.  When adding the water for mash-out the mash
gets fairly "soupy" (at least it seems thinner than I'd like).  I'm
using a spreadsheet someone sent me that seems to indicate that the
first runnings are drawn off before the water for mash-out is added.
Is this correct?  I've been having low efficiency and could see where
it might increase my efficiency if I get the initial high sugar portion
of the mash extracted before I boosted to mash-out.  If it is correct
to take the first running before going to mash-out, do I need to
recirculate twice?  Or do I add the mash-out water gently (sprinkler)
so as not to disturb the grain-bed/filter I created during the
recirculation I did to collect the first runnings?

I think my beers have been turning out fine enough, I think that
I should be having better efficiency than mid-60's.  Any help is
appreciated.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Dirty Laundry Brewery
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 21:33:02 +1000
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Secret Squirrels and Charlie P is Gunna Cop It!!

     The secret squirrel recently leaped out of the woods with his fur coat
off to expose himself to us as Lester Long. Geez Lester, the last time
someone did something similar we ended up with all sorts of less than
desirable goings on behind a barn!
     Lester spoke of more useful purposes for Zymurgy magazine other than
reading it, and the likely fate the messiah Charlie P. can look forward to!
Lester is referring to comments made by some in the HBD.
     Without implicating the furless squirrel in any way (he just happened
to raise the matter) I would like to ask just what is going on?
     I have been a member of the AHA for 12 months and am in the process of
considering my renewal. Out here in the colonies we are not privy to
in-house fighting and personally I do not understand the dislike displayed
by some to Charlie P.
     From an outsiders point of view it looks a bit like this:
                      Charlie P., an eccentric sort of chap, writes a few
homebrew books, does very well out of them
                      financially and now no one likes him.
     Regarding the Association, I have no clues as to what has caused so
much anger. I am asking that someone may enlighten me on these matters. I
must say to you all that the HBD is regarded by many potential contributors
as something of a lions den, that is to say that you can expect to be
shredded if you dare to get involved. Personally I don't mind a bit of a
shredding, makes you sit back and look at yourself, but I am sad to think
that many potential contributors don't want to get involved. So on the
matter of the AHA and Charlie P., can I ask for an explanation?




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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:57:07 -0400
From: "David M. Campbell" <David.Campbell at po-box.esu.edu>
Subject: Aeration


How long should I "aerate" the wort after pitching yeast?  Also, what are
some different methods?  I usually stir in the liquid yeast and stir it well
for 5-10 minutes before covering the bucket wit a lid and airlock.  Am I
giving the beer enough time to aerate?  I worry about contamination and
oxidation of the wort...but should I be giving it more time to aerate before
covering it?  Thanks in advance.

Dave




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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:33:03 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: Is there a Dr in the house?

Stephen Alexander on the one hand wants us to all read scientific
journals like he does, thus giving us the impression he is an intelligent
man.  But on the other hand he thinks that the monaker "Dr Pivo"
"apparently does mislead people".

Come on, Stephen, you're not the only intelligent person on this digest.
Do you think any of us really thought he was a Dr?  Actually, for that
matter, did anyone even bother to ask him if perhaps he was a Ph.D.?

What conclusions we jump to in the name of science!

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks
Internal : http://zftzb00d/alanmckay/
All opinions expressed are my own.


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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:43:07 -0500
From: "Kelly" <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: Why no basement?

Well, here in New Orleans it is an easy answer....at any given part of the
city you are around 18 ft below sea level. Heck, we even bury the dead here
above ground so they don't come floating up after a good storm.  I've grown
up in the southeaster area for most of my life, and have seen very few
basements, so, I'm guessing it is a regional thing. At least in the regions
I've been around

:-)

But, it would be nice to have one.  I start brewing an ale, and it churns
right along at a lightning pace since my house gets easily into the upper
80's during the day.  I can't afford to run the air all day  when no one is
there.  And brewing lagers? Well, I'm going to have to wait till I can buy a
freezer dedicated to brewing.

My $0.02,

Kelly


Quoted Stuff:
- --------------------------------------------------------\
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 09:09:47 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Basements

Mark Tumarkin <mark_t at ix.netcom.com> wrote

>That may not be necessary for some of you with
>cool basements (damn Yankees!)

Which brings up a somewhat non-brewing question (traffic is low, though)
that has bothered me for years - why aren't basements standard in all of
the country (excepting areas with rock right below the surface or high
water tables)?  They add very little to the cost of a house and double the
square footage in the case of one story houses, or by 50% in the case of
two stories.  They are virtually standard around.  Is it just a regional
cultural thing?  It would hardly seem that way given the great internal
immigration this country has seen in its history.  Yet they seem to be the
exception in the south and the west.  Any ideas?




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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:02:59 -0500
From: "Jim Kingsberg" <jdkingsb at hewitt.com>
Subject: Praise beer! New Glarus Copper Kettle wheat

Brothers, sisters!  I have been to the house of lager and I have seen the
light.  I just finished off a 6 pack of New Glarus Copper Kettle Wheat.
And yea, it was good.  Here comes the beer question:  Does anyone have the
recipe for this?  This is an extremely tasty brew and seems like it would
be quite easy to reproduce at home.  Thanks in advance!  (Im a believer in
supporing your local brewery.  Wisconsin is close enough.)

Also, yankees, I beleive, refers to those folks north of the Mason-Dixon
line (that is an extremely interesting engineering feat btw.)  Yankee also
refers to ALL United States citizens when outside of the US, particularly
in Mexico and central america where I beleive the term originated, yanqui.

Also, because of my "conversion" to the church of beer, I have sent in my
$5 bucks and have become a reverend.  Im still waiting on the fez tho'.

Thanks and praise beer,
Rev. Jim
Fugowee Brewery and house of beer worship,
Evanston, IL.  (still working on rennerian coordinates)




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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:22:25 -0400
From: Eric Reimer <eric at etymonic.com>
Subject: Yeast health question

Hi all,

I have a question regarding the health of a package of Yeast Labs 
Dortmunder Alt yeast (A07 I think).  I was in my local HB supply shop 
looking for this yeast.  Unfortunately, the only package left was one which 
had an expiration date of Feb 99.  The shop keeper gave me the yeast for 
free if I wanted to try using it.   The package claims that this is a 
sufficient quantity of yeast to ferment 19l of wort.  However, I always 
step this quantity up at least twice before pitching.  With such a long 
past expired date, will this yeast likely still be OK to use after stepping 
up?  Would I be better to throw this yeast away and wait for a fresh 
package?

All suggestions welcome.

Cheers,

Eric Reimer
Barking Dogs Brewery
London, Ontario



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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 06:24:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: re:prechilling

I don't have a pump to recirculate ice water.  Instead I took my
bottling bucket and filled it with ice. I took the spigot and turned it
around so the threads were on the outside of the bucket.  I cooled the
wort with the standard copper tubing immersion chiller until the water
was running out cool-ish.  I filled the bottling bucket part way with
water from the chiller outlet.  I plugged the outlet with my finger so
the water stopped running out, turned off the water, and screwed the
chiller inlet onto my bottling bucket.  Reaching in the bucket, I
turned the valve and continued to chill.  I collected the water and
dumped it back into the bottling bucket periodically until pitching
temperature.  Worked ok.  Keeping a siphon was important, so the level
of the bottling bucket had to be higher than the boil kettle.

Matt Comstock in Cincinnati


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:26:55 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Basements

Jeff Renner ( nerenner at umich.edu) wonders about why there are much fewer
basements in the south.  I will refrain from taking cheap shots at the
intelligence of those who would want to live down there much less invest 
in
real estate.  ( I am a now a fully recovered "damn yankee.")  However 
this
is my theory.  In northern climes it is necessary to lay a foundation 
that
will always be below the frost line.  If you have to go that far, you 
might
as well go a few feet further and get a decent basement.  Yankee 
ingenuity.
 


In Danville Kentucky, where I surcame to "damn yankeehood" there is 
another
problem.  The thin top soil covers solid rock.  Anything below the 
surface
needs to be blasted out.  It appears that the local cemetary was piled
there.

Dan Listermann        dan at listermann.com          

72723.1707 at compuserve.com

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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:34:17 -0400
From: Eric Reimer <eric at etymonic.com>
Subject: Narrow range pH test strips

Could some kind soul direct me to a source for the narrow range pH test 
strips which are discussed here occasionally?  I have been unable to locate 
these locally.  My local HB shopkeeper looks with a blank stare when I 
describe them.  Oh where, oh where could they be?

Cheers,

Eric



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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:44:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: 2000 AHA NHC: MIY2K

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Darryl Newbury of the North states:

> That being said, with Detroit being just a 5 hour drive from Toronto, 3
> hours if the President of CABA is driving, if next year's AHA conference
> looks good -- I suspect there will be some interest in next years
> conference from CABA members in Southern Ontario. So to those who are
> organizing the event, all the best, hope to be there.

We who are organizing the event are STRIVING to make it equally attractive
- and just as easy to attend and participate - for those north of the
border as it is to those living south of the border.  We would welcome any
suggestions you could offer for doing so as well! We would also be
interested in hearing from any homebrew clubs in Windsor, Sarnia or
environs of either who might be willing to work with us in coordinating
Canadian entries for the competition as well.

 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:56:03 -0400
From: "Frank J. Russo" <FJRusso at coastalnet.com>
Subject: Pumps

I am contemplating building a chiller and need to find a source for a
submersible pump.  Any recommendations?  Of course web site are preferred.

Frank
Havelock, NC



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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 08:59:31 -0500
From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject:  titles

 -S writes in HBD 3081:

>People 'measure up' when they have obtained the skills their earned 
titles
>imply and NOT when they start using a false title.  Refusing to use a 
false
>earned title is no disrespect.   What you are saying is that anyone who
>wants to put Ph.D or M.D. behind his name should do so ?  And to point 
this
>out is an offense to the person ?  To my mind using such a title w/o
>credentials is a very serious offense to all the people who have had to 
work
>so hard for them.

>Still the Dr.Pivo title was whimsical  pseudonym and not intended to 
defraud
>as I said before.  But it apparently does mislead people about the actual
>credentials involved, particularly when discussing a technical topic.  
And
>there was to my mind no harm in reminding the newer readers that this is 
a
>pseudonym.

I have a question that I would like to see added to the proposed HBD 
survey if it becomes a reality:

     Are you as feeble minded as Mr. -S is to believe that the person 
signing his articles "Dr. Pivo"  was actually a doctor?

There is a guy here in K.C. called Dr. Ribs.  He caters parties with a 
huge smoker on wheels and makes some of the best ribs around.  I guess I 
should call the AMA and have them start some kind of legal action because 
when I was at a party last summer, Dr. Ribs gave me some medical advice 
concerning a boil on my hind quarters.  He seemed like such a nice 
guy.......

Dr. Beer

aka



Paul Niebergall
Burns & McDonnell
pnieb at burnsmcd.com
"Illegitimis non carborundum"


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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:55:33 -0500
From: Steven Sanders <ssanders at microlink.net>
Subject: re: warm tap water in chillers... 

A thought had occured to me while reading about the problems of warm tap
water in chillers... Has anyone ever used or attempted to use a vortex
tube to cool down the tap water to a reasonable temperature?   Id have
to go back and read what little literature I have on vortex tubes, but
it seems like you could power it with tap pressure. Id be interested in
hearing what the engineers out there think about the idea...

Regards,

Steven Sanders



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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:41:56 -0500
From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject: Aplication of Science and Big Boys Techniques

Maybe were are all thinking to closely about the subject of beer.  I would 
like to take us "out of the box" (Ooh, I always wanted to use that term) 
and look at things from a different angle.

For my example I would like to take us into an area that is closely 
related, but not as hotly contested or as highly emotional (at least not 
in this forum): baking.  I dont think anyone out there can argue the 
brewing and baking are, if not essentially identical processes, extremely 
close cousins.  So let me ask:  If you wanted to make nice crusty, yeasty, 
sour-dough rolls (umm, I hungry), would you research the techniques used 
by Wonder Bread?   How about if you wanted to make some rich, fluffy, 
french pastries with cream filling (eau Claire, perhaps), would you 
research how Twinkies are made?  No you would not, because producing these 
products has nothing to do with quality baking at home.  Oh, you can bet 
all the home brew in your basement that Hostess has spent millions 
researching the Twinkie.  I bet the available information would fill 
volumes.  However, I make bread and occasional french pastries at home and 
never once researched the techniques used by Hostess, Wonder Bread, Dolly 
Madison, or the Tasty Cakes Corporation.   Why would I?   I get my 
information from trusted cook books and T.V. shows.  Gasp, did I say T.V.? 
 - that wasteland you say, considered a quality source of information?  
Well you should check out Emeril Lagasse some time.  I have never seen him 
start spouting chemical formulas concerning the Malliard reactions 
involved in browning a pork chop!

Anyway  I use the techniques that I have learned and apply them until I 
get it the way I want it to be.  Nothing else.  All the science in the 
world wont help my baking.  Why would it help my brewing??  Oh, I guess 
some could say that I have a "Closed Mind" and that I should do more 
research and not be so quick to judge.  I guess for those of you that 
think you need to do these things, go right ahead.  I dont have to because 
I have this incredible knack for making good judgments concerning the 
applicability of the information available to me.  I dont call being 
closed minded, I call being intelligent.  

I hope this little analogy opens a few eyes and minds.

Paul Niebergall
Burns & McDonnell
pnieb at burnsmcd.com
"Illegitimis non carborundum"


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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 16:19:40 GMT
From: marnold at ez-net.com (Matthew Arnold)
Subject: pLambic Brewing

At New Year's I tried a lambic for the first time, Boon Mariage Parfait Kriek
to be exact. My wife hated it (I think that's an understatement) but I loved it
(also an understatement). I've since tried various Boon and Lindemans products
with my all-time favorite being Boon Geuze. I find most of the Lindemans
products (with the notable exception of their Cuvee' Rene' Gueuze) to be too
sweet, with their Kriek even having a strong cherry cough syrup taste to it (no
flames, thanks, that's my personal opinion, nothing more). I'm trying to find
some Cantillon products, but I don't know how widely they are imported (if at
all).

I've read Jim Liddil's "Liddil Lambic Lesson" and am in the process of reading
Guinard's "Lambic" from cover to cover. I hope to make a batch this summer,
which might be ready by time the millennium really changes on December 31,
2000. I'm looking for any insights others might be able to provide.
Specifically, I'm looking for answers to these questions:

1) Liddil talks about using polycarbonate (PC) plastic bottles for fermenting.
Are these the bottles normally used in water dispensers (big translucent blue
bottles)? If so, this would be ideal as many plambic brewers seem to prefer
fermenting in plastic and you can see all the action going on.

2) Any suggestions for pitching schedules for the Brett and P. damnosus? Has
anyone used or has success with Wyeast's 3278 blend? From what I read it's a
regular ale yeast, brett, and some lactic bacteria all in one. Obviously, this
would be the simplest solution, but is it the best (or even a good) way to go?

3) I plan on using a 6# of pale ale malt and 3# of flaked wheat grist. I don't
think I'll try turbid mashing, maybe a single-step infusion in the mid to upper
150s F and sparge with extra hot (190s F) sparge water.

I realize that my chances of making Boon Geuze at home are extremely slim. But
I want to take a shot at it anyway. If it comes out way off balance, I'll try
to let it sit or make another batch and blend. I have no problem waiting a year
or two for the finished product.

Thanks!
  Matt
- -----
Webmaster, Green Bay Rackers Homebrewers' Club
http://www.rackers.org        info at rackers.org


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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 09:09:45 -0700
From: Michael Rose <mrose at ucr.campuscw.net>
Subject: Surveys

    In regards to the thread on brewing surveys; I would like to see
multiple, in-depth surveys. Each brewers would fill out that part
of the survey that pertains to their area of expertise.
Some multiple survey ideas
    1) Making starters
    2) Overall sanitation
    3) Kegging
    4) ph adjustment
Etc, etc.
    If any of the more knowledgeable posters were to do a 2 page survey
and try to cover all aspects of brewing the info covered would be to brief.
Why not have them post more in depth on a single subject.
The more general brewers, such as myself, could post something
more like an outline of their brewing procedure.
    Asking Pat to do this survey is like asking Steve Alexander to cure cancer
or John Palmer to build another Golden Gate Bridge.
    Anyway, Hurry up and get on it Pat!

                    Mike Rose   Riverside, CA    mrose at ucr.campuscw.net



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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:23:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robin Griller <rgriller at chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: re: where has all the irony gone? pivo pivo pivo

Dear Mr. Alexander,

Just a quick response to your response. I'd like to preface it by saying
that your sending of the post privately prior to its appearance on hbd is
appreciated.

The unfortunate thing about your post is that you have completely
misunderstood my argument. In agreement with Dr Pivo, I believe that
authority (i.e. in technical +/or scientific discussions, having a claim
to possess the truth) is *not* conferred by position or title. That is,
being a doctor or physicist does not mean that one's statements on
medicine or physics are necessarily true. So, holding positions and having
titles does *not* confer authority (thus Dr Pivo's insistence on
scientific experiment; the texts and the scientists don't *possess* truth,
the search for truth is generally available). Thus, with regards to
science, no one 'possesses' authority in this sense. Given that, calling
Dr Pivo Dr Pivo is no more and no less a conferral of authority than
calling him Jeff or Mr Irvine. *You* are the one beginning from a belief
that titles confer authority, not me; that's why calling Dr Pivo Dr Pivo
bothers *you*. My post was simply to point out that your finding it
difficult to call Dr Pivo Dr Pivo was based on your own
misunderstanding of what he was saying. Get it?

So, all this silliness about kings and queens is based on a
misunderstanding. If we are to mention our egalitarian 'credentials',
as a person who in earlier times, perhaps, would have been referred to as 
a 'red', or at least a pinko!, I would be less than happy if anyone were
to refer to me as King anything! Well, excepting perhaps King Ludd, as
everyone is or can be King Ludd! Even all at the same time! Hmmnn, Dr Pivo
anybody? 

I (and I'm certain everybody else) would prefer to let this drop or, if
necessary, continue it privately, though I certainly would understand if
you were to respond publically one final time and promise to avoid public
response if at all possible (an escape hatch!).

Sincerely,

Robin



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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 07:50:20 -0700
From: Greg Tucker <gktucker at TID.ORG>
Subject:  Basements

Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> wrote

>Which brings up a somewhat non-brewing question (traffic is low, though)
>that has bothered me for years - why aren't basements standard in all of
>the country (excepting areas with rock right below the surface or high
>water tables)?  They add very little to the cost of a house and double the
>square footage in the case of one story houses, or by 50% in the case of
>two stories.  They are virtually standard around.  Is it just a regional
>cultural thing?  It would hardly seem that way given the great internal
>immigration this country has seen in its history.  Yet they seem to be the
>exception in the south and the west.  Any ideas?


I'm in the process of building my own custom home in California.  Being a
homebrewer, I wanted a brew friendly home.  Therefore I stubbed a propane
line in the garage for my burner, put in a large basin sink, and tried
like hell to incorporate a basement into the house.  However, I quickly
found out that the cost of a basement was prohibitively expensive.  In
California and other warm weather climates, the stem wall for a house only
needs to go into the ground 18" because the frost line is virtually
non-existent.  Back east and up north I understand that a stem wall must
go into the ground 42".  Quite a difference!

Not to let a little extra concrete and trenching discourage me, I
proceeded with design.  I wanted all the house mechanicals in the basement
(water heater, furnace, etc).  The uniform building code would not allow
this.  In the area I am building, I will use propane gas for all heating.  
Propane is heavier than air.  The code says that no propane fired
mechanicals can be installed below grade due to the potential of trapping
gas in a pocket.

Even with all the discouraging news I continued my design.  Without the
mechanicals I figured I could get by with a small basement just for
fermenting.  The county planners required a window for ingress/egress for
any space larger than 10'x10'.  They also wanted a french drain,
electrical placed in conduit, etc.  I sent the design out for bids and
received prices in the neighborhood of $30,000.  All this for a 10'x10'
room.  My solution?  Shitcan the basement and buy a chest freezer, which I
immediately did.



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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:50:47 -0700
From: "Bayer, Mark A" <Mark.Bayer at JSF.Boeing.com>
Subject: oxidation: measurable?

collective homebrew conscience_

spencer wrote:

>By using "best practices" <snip> oxidation defects can be reduced to a
>minimum, even in quite old beer.<snip> the other night, several of us had
the
>pleasure to sample a 6-year-old bottle of Orval, which had been
>hand-carried from the brewery in 1993, and stored in a cellar (in
>Michigan) since then.  It was definitely past the "best by" date (Jan
>1998, as I recall).  There was a touch of oxidation (cardboard,
>mostly) in the flavor, but the beer still had a lot of character and
>was quite drinkable.  By this time, the Brett characteristics had
>grown to dominate, but hop aroma and flavor, and malt flavors were
>also still in evidence.  Clearly, this beer was brewed and bottled
>with great care.

does anybody know if orval uses transfer and bottling techniques that
discourage air exposure and headspace air?  if they do, this might be useful
info. for those of you brewing strong styles of ale that want to condition
at cellar temps.

also, is it possible to measure oxidation effects quantitatively?  i'm not
referring to measuring headspace air; i'm talking about somehow quantifying
the oxidized compounds in the finished beer.  if there is, it would be
interesting to examine data for bottle-conditioned beers as a function of
some of the "input" variables (headspace air, yeast strain, storage temp and
time).

brew hard, 

mark bayer, i mean, dr. hfuhrrurruurrrhh
stl mo


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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:16:28 -0400
From: "John Stegenga" <bigjohns at mindspring.com>
Subject: from Propane to Natural Gas

Greetings all.  After a year of lurking and reading the digest posts to in
rec.crafts.brewing I've decided to leach in person <GRIN>.

I've found many interesting and informative posts here and thought I'd probe
the list for information concerning the "how to" of converting a low
pressure (30-35kbtu) propane burner to natural gas.

The one I'm eyeballing right now is a CampChef stove, with 2x30K burners.
The campchef people say I can just switch the input gas from LP to NAT and
bang (err, wrong choice of phrase!) off we go with 2x25k burners.  The tech
guy left me a voicemail (which subsequently got lost as our company
voicemail system tanked...) that included something about drilling or
replacing the orafice to boost the btu's back up.  Others have said there is
a chart that actually says how big to make it for (x)Kbtus... Now I know you
guys do a lot of plumbing on those fancy mash systems of yours <GRIN>, but I
was wondering if there are any GAS guys out there....

Also, I'm in the process of building my mashing system (after 21 batches of
extract/partial mash) using a couple 48qt coleman coolers I picked up at
KAYMART for $13.00 each.  I plan on plumbing the mash tun with a copper
manifold (already posted that on the brewery web group).  Anyone know what
sort of tubing to buy from home depot that will hold up to the temps?  What
sort of ball valve should I install on the liquor tank, etc.  In general,
lots of help needed here.  I think I can get the manifold done, but from
there I'm lost! (ok, not quite lost - I have already built my immersion
chiller)

Anyway, thanks to all in advance!  I'm looking forward to brewing with this
setup in a week or so - my 80qt AL pot is already on it's way here!

John Stegenga (aka Bigjohn)
(brewery name under consideration)



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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:03:49 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: "Charles T. Major" <ctmajor at samford.edu>
Subject: Brewpubs in Lakewood/Denver area

I don't have too many details, but just last night my wife 
told me about a mention of Wynkoop's (in Denver) by Kurt 
Vonnegut in his recent book _Timequake_.  It seems that one 
of Vonnegut's ancestors was a brewer before prohibition and 
brewed an award-winning beer flavored with coffee.  
Wynkoop's has brewed a coffee-flavored beer in his honor 
called something along the lines of Kurt's Mile-High Ale.  
Seems worth checking out to me.  Does anyone have further 
info?

Regards,
Tidmarsh Major
Birmingham, Alabama



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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 17:16:35 -0500
From: John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: RE:Making the seal for fridge line

Sandy Cockerham asked about how to seal the gas pipe through the side of a
serving fridge.

I didn't get a chance to respond to this earlier.  On one of my serving
refrigerators I used a stainless nipple I got from a local shop that is no
longer in business.  It was the same size as the CO2 compression fitting and
had a couple of lock nuts and washers to draw it up tight.  I just drilled a
hole very close to the nipple size and didn't worry about sealing.
Unfortunately, I have no idea where to get another nipple like it.  On my
other fridge I used a copper 1/4 inch NPT nipple with an adapter on the
outside that went from 1/4 NPT to a Cornelius gas in QD post.  I think a
1/4 inch compression fitting for the gas line fit the inside so I guess it
was really the same as the stainless one.  I used fender washers on this nipple
to spread the load on the fridge walls.  Again, I used no sealant, just drilled
the hole to very nearly the same size as the nipple.  I doubt enough air gets
through to matter.  I like using the Cornelius type (actually, I think it was
Firestone but still fits the QD) fitting on the outside because it makes it
easier to disconnect the CO2 tank for transferring and carbonating beer.
I got the gas in post and adapter from South Bay Homebrew Supply in Torrance,
California, (800) 608-BREW.  I am just a satisfied customer.  They seem to have
a lot of keg parts, by the way.


John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas


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---