---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  questions for Czech brewers ("St. Patrick's")
  A basement is a beautiful thing (Sandra L Cockerham)
  Oxidation experiment (Stephen Johnson)
  Application of Science and Big Boys Techniques ("Stephen Alexander")
  oxidation: measurable? ("Stephen Alexander")
  RE: Charlie P. and the AHA (John Wilkinson)
  RE: Yeast health question (John Wilkinson)
  Basements as standard equipment ("Tom & Dee McConnell")
  HBD Posting Fear/Charlie P. and Such... (Randy Shreve)
  Lager Temperature (Steve Milito)
  Aging (Charley Burns)
  Re: Results of Aeration at Bottling Experiment (David Lamotte)
  Inimitable English ale (Utesres)
  making starters (jgibbens)
  DamYankee in Kentucky??? ("Stan Prevost")
  Application of Science... (David Whitman)
  RE: Why Homebrew ("Nigel Porter")
  re: basements (Dave Williams)
  REF: Why HomeBrew? (Gary D Hipple)
  What's in a name/growing hops/refractometer corrections/learning (KTNeall)
  Temp controller (fridge)
  Page Down Key..... ("Jeff Beinhaur")
  Snow Goose Winter Ale (Jim Haynes)
  False Bottoms,The Beetles (Eric.Fouch)
  He's Not Qualified to Post Data on the HBD (Biergiek)
  Building codes for 10x10 "closets" (Joe Rolfe)
  Re: Basements (Jeff Renner)
  RE: Temp controllers ("Rob Dewhirst")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:13:26 -0500
From: "St. Patrick's" <stpats at bga.com>
Subject: questions for Czech brewers

Michael Jackson and I will visit several breweries and maltings in Moravia
early next month. This is the time of the barley harvest and our hosts have
arranged for
visits to the barley fields as well.

I don't think any of the brewery's beers are available in US although I
flew one of them in a few years ago as part of a tasting I did for the
Campaign to Protect the Czech Brewing Heritage (now defunct).

I have numerous questions for these brewers but I invite HBD readers to
send me questions they would like addressed about Czech brewing. I will
take copious notes and summarize the salient points on the HBD upon my return.

My interests lie equally with malt, having imported Moravian malt since my
last visit nearly 2 years ago.  We will visit three maltings and I invite
questions about barley and malt production as well.

I will be travelling throughout Bohemia for several days prior to this on
other non-beer-related business.  Time permitting, I'll stop at a couple of
Bohemian breweries although there will be no formal meeting with
brewmasters as in Moravia.

Lynne O'Connor
St. Patrick's of Texas
Brewers Supply
http://www.stpats.com
stpats at bga.com
 512-989-9727
 512-989-8982 facsimile


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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:15:40 -0500
From: Sandra L Cockerham <COCKERHAM_SANDRA_L at Lilly.com>
Subject: A basement is a beautiful thing



As to the question of why basements aren't standard I can only guess a
practical answer.  (Besides the frost line, which early folks probably just
figured out by trial and error when their walls cracked or fell down...)
My thought would be that basements are more prevalent here in the
central part of the country, as a derivative of the "storm cellar".
Living with someone, who as a child had their huge brick farmhouse partially
turned around and flattened by a tornado, a basement is  a "must have"  !!!
However, I will say the basement is very useful for my ever growing
carboy collection and my assorted kegs, kettles and retired wort chillers!
Like many, the water table in our area is a bit high and my basement doesn't
stay completely dry.  Yet, I still ponder setting up a basement brewery !
cheers,
Sandy C.




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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 13:43:35 -0500
From: Stephen Johnson <Stephen.Johnson at vanderbilt.edu>
Subject: Oxidation experiment

Dennis Johnson in HBD 3082 makes some valid points regarding his first
attempt at doing an experiment with his bottling process to see if aeration
during bottling makes any difference.  I also applaud him for getting
something about the brewing process back on the forum:

snip<There are a number of possible explanations:
1.  The "momily" we've always heard regarding the evils of aerating during
bottling is a myth.
2.  I have such lousy taste that I couldn't recognize an aerated beer if it
hit me on the head.
3.  There was something unusual about my recipe or my methods that masked
the effect.  (Maybe all the bottles were aerated?)>snip

I have a few questions, as well as some additional possible explanations.
First, the questions:
1) beyond being a "standard pale ale," what were some of the
characteristics of this beer:  hop levels, color, specialty malts, all
grain or extract?
2) at what temperature were the beers kept during the conditioning process?
3) what type of yeast was used?
4) what level was the carbonation in the bottles when the test occurred?
5) what temperature were the beers when the test occurred?

The reason I'm asking is that it has been my experience that:
1] some beer styles seem to be more prone to masking the flavor effects of
oxidation than others.  Even though I am a BJCP judge, if there are some
stronger aroma compounds present in a beer, such as dark malts, high aroma
hops, etc., I sometimes find it a bit more difficult to initially pick out
some of those "wet paper/cardboard" or "sherry-like" aromas that one finds
in some oxidized beers
2] it has been my experience, and I think there is some support from Fix
and probably others, that oxidation effects are increased as the
temperature goes higher during the conditioning process.  I would be
helpful to know how Dennis' beers were treated during that step
3] it has also been my experience that some yeast strains seem to be more
tolerant of the effects of heat during storage than others, but I don't
have any solid evidence regarding this
4] is it possible that maybe lower carbonated beers are more prone to
oxidation effects?
5] if the test beers were really cold at serving time, it may have been
difficult to accurately detect those tell-tale signs of oxidation
6] maybe six weeks of conditioning is not long enough.  Whenever I have had
obviously oxidized commercial beers that have a "best consumed by..." or
"born on..." date, they typically are way beyond that six week time period.
 A beer within that six week time period is still relatively fresh in my
book.  Again, a lot depends on how it was stored.  If, after first reaching
acceptable levels of carbonation, the beers are stored at lower and
constant temps, then there is a good chance that the oxidation effects
haven't had a chance to take place. If, however, they have been stored in a
pretty warm space with large temperature fluctuations, or are handled
roughly (like being shipped to a homebrew contest across country), then
those oxidation effects might appear more quickly.

Well, I've rambled enough for my once in a blue moon post! Curious what
others think.  Maybe we should have a picture of a circa 1950's housewife
bottling beer in an apron alongside a Zymurgy article to get people talking
about oxidation effects...?

Steve Johnson, a transplanted Yankee in Music City
(aka Nashville, TN)
"a fuhr peayus acrost da holler frohm Jeff Renner"




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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:38:18 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Application of Science and Big Boys Techniques

Paul N writes ...

>Please do not confuse quotes from a brewing texts [...] with science.
I completely agree. They are just reports of scientific work.

>The HBD is not science and it will never be [...]

HB level experimentation has disadvantages - true. Still nearly all of
physical chemistry, classic physics and fundamentals of yeast  was all
discovered by people with  less access to resources than most of us.  The
above is just an excuse to quit without trying.

Simple and imperfect experiments, like LK Bonhams Decoction vs RIMS lead one
to question the decoction.  It does forcefully question this HB momily.  If
this one article was the entire extent of HB experimentation - I would rate
it a success. Instead there have been many.

>And even if this did happen, it would be extremely
>BORING because the things that we can successfully measure at home are
>just not that exciting.

Especially if you give up before you try.

You disagree with Dr.Pivo when he writes that he believes in performing
tests under "controlled objective conditions" ... and looking for results
more meaningful than 'I did this and got such-and-such result' (I
paraphrase).  He suggests the use of triangle taste tests  for example.

On baking ...
>So let me ask:  If you wanted to make nice crusty, yeasty,
>sour-dough rolls (umm, I hungry), would you research the techniques used
>by Wonder Bread?

As someone who does make sourdough on a semiregular basis,  two recent
improvements in my sourdough methods came from the book "Food Chemistry".
Perhaps Wonder Bread even funded the research !

Paul's argument is that big bakers make lousy bread therefore the science
can only lead to lousy bread.  The books on food science don't give recipes
for Wonder Bread.  That is a childish mischaracterization. The analogy
ignores that most brewing research cited here is funded by likes of Guinness
and Wehenstephan - not exactly the Twinkies of brewing.

Science is a model of reality based on experiments which follow certain
methodologies to ensure the results are reasonably accurate.  Paul's
recourse to personal experience and 'recipe' alone just gives Paul a much
smaller and less rigorously tested set of experiences on which to decide.
Less knowledge is
better only if you have no need to extrapolate or diagnose.

>No you would not ,
But I do .

>because producing these
>products has nothing to do with quality baking at home.

Reading about production of XYZ doesn't force you to make an XYZ clone -
that's nonsense.

For example Guinness reports they can reduce 4VG by avoiding low mash temps.
If you don't wish to lower 4VG (as in a wheat beer) then you can use the
result to increase levels. Similarly you may avoid practices that make Coors
taste Coors-like if you bother to read about them.

To complain that Guinness, by imparting this "Big Boy Technique", has caused
you to brew bad tasting low-4VG wheat beers is ridiculous.. The only person
responsible for applying ANY method (or dogma) is the brewer.  Grow up and
take responsibility for your choices.

The 4VG (ferulic precursor) rest  is a good example of a research result
with possible direct applicability to HB.

>Anyway  I use the techniques that I have learned and apply them until I
>get it the way I want it to be.  Nothing else.

Experience is absolutely essential.  But relying on personal experience
alone is just a formula for homegrown internal errors and a limited view of
the process.

>All the science in the  world wont help my baking.
>Why would it help my brewing??
It DOES help your brewing.  Do you use  pure yeast cultures or thermometers,
those old results of commercial brewing research.  Do you use more
recent results like effecting esters or fusels by temp control, O2 etc ?.
Perhaps you use commercial dogma about how to handle your ale vs lager
fermentation temps.  Or hops IBU calculations ?  Or treat your water ?  Or
choose pitching rates ? Or calculate carbonation rates ?  You might have
learned from experience what acetaldehyde or DMS or diacetyl means in a
beer, but more likely you understand these and their cure from theory.
Lot's more if you should care to think.

>I hope this little analogy opens a few eyes and minds.
A treatise on the virtues of limiting knowledge - to what end ?

I am not suggesting that any one else read journals tho' it was a more
enlightening HBD when more did.  Some people want to obtain enough knowledge
to reason deductively about cars or computers or baked goods or beer.
Others just want to drive or surf or load the bread machine or brew from
kits.  There used to be plenty of space for both sides here.  Where does
your intolerance come from ?

If you don't think critically about your brewing -  then you are relegated
to operating by rote and rule-of-thumb and you will be the endless victim of
superstition and momilies, mysticism and mumbo-jumbo (the malady that Alan
complains about). Your own fault all.

 -S







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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:48:15 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: oxidation: measurable?

Mark Bayer writes ...

> is it possible to measure oxidation effects quantitatively
There is a test called an indicator time test (ITT) and several variants on
this method.  One such is an approved ASBC test - tho' I don't have those
details.

As I recall the ITT value is a time in seconds till a certain phenolic
compound changes color.  I should have a description somewhere but can't
find it.  Measures something close to redox potential of the beer, not
dissolved O2.

>if there is, it would be
>interesting to examine data for bottle-conditioned beers as a function of
>some of the "input" variables (headspace air, yeast strain, storage temp
and
>time).

Or even kegged HB.

Paul Niebergall tells me that all HB experimentation is boring and
pointless, so you must be wrong about the "interesting" part Mark.

Also note that some sources indicate that ales may develop cloying sweet
flavors as an age related defect.  Anyone explain where that flavor comes
from  Loss of hops bitterness ?

 -S




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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:35:37 -0500
From: John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: RE: Charlie P. and the AHA

Phil Yates wrote:

>     I have been a member of the AHA for 12 months and am in the process of
>considering my renewal. Out here in the colonies we are not privy to
>in-house fighting and personally I do not understand the dislike displayed
>by some to Charlie P.
>     From an outsiders point of view it looks a bit like this:
>                      Charlie P., an eccentric sort of chap, writes a few
>homebrew books, does very well out of them
>                      financially and now no one likes him.
>     Regarding the Association, I have no clues as to what has caused so
>much anger. I am asking that someone may enlighten me on these matters.

I have never really understood this either.  When I started brewing Charlie's
book was recommended to me and that is what I read and used.  I think I got a
lot out of it.  He may have been wrong on some things but I think he got a
hell of a lot more right than wrong.  And I am not so sure all the things he
is accused of getting wrong are wrong or if they are they may be relatively
unimportant.  I think a lot of the animosity to Charlie P. is simple jealousy.
That and the old joy some get at pointing out the flaws (real or imagined) of
whoever is at the top as a way of promoting themselves.  If they can point to
the top guy and say they know more than he does they must be quite the dude
themselves, right?  I am sure some have legitimate beefs but I don't know the
guy and I have no beef with him.
As to the AHA, I was a member when I subscribed to Zymurgy.  I got a coaster,
bumper sticker, and some printed material about the AHA when I subscribed.  I
considered it pretty much a joke and never took my membership seriously.  I
subscribed to the magazine, I didn't join an organization, in my mind.  Thus
I didn't give a damn what the AHA did or didn't do.  Why should I.  I quit
subscribing to Zymurgy when I felt the content was not worth the time I was
taking to read it or the money I was spending (Scottish heritage) for it.
Being a member of AHA never was a consideration for me.

In case anyone gives a damn what I think.  But why would I care?

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas


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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 16:43:21 -0500
From: John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: RE: Yeast health question

Eric Reimer asked about using yeast with a FEB 99 expiration date.
I am not sure about expiration date but I have used Wyeast with a stamped
date over a year old.  The Wyeast packs have a date stamped on them that I
think is a packaging date rather than an expiration date so I don't know
how this compares.  Anyway, I was given the yeast since it was so old.  I used
it successfully.  It took a few days to swell after being smacked but worked
fine.  I stepped it up, as I always do, but don't remember if I had to make
more steps or not.  I don't think I did.  The only difference I remember is
the longer time to a swelled pack.  With Yeast Labs there is no pack to swell
but if a starter is made one should be able to tell if the yeast is active.
I have used a starter when I used Yeast Labs yeast but haven't had to step as
much as with Wyeast.  Certainly with an older Yeast labs tube I would use a
starter.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas


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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 23:16:27 +0100
From: "Tom & Dee McConnell" <tdmc at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Basements as standard equipment

It is not just rock near the surface.  In many parts of Florida, a 
house with a basement will simply float out of the ground because 
the water table is so high.  Same thing goes for in ground 
swimming pools, in florida, you don't just drain and clean - the 
things will pop right up (or crack!)

Tom & Dee McConnell (tdmc at bigfoot.com)
Littleport, Ely, Cambridgeshire, UK


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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:35:14 -0400
From: Randy Shreve <rashreve at interpath.com>
Subject: HBD Posting Fear/Charlie P. and Such...

Greetings from (cloudy) North Carolina!
Not much brewing info ahead......Page Down Now if uninterested in
ramblings.....

Phil and Jill Yates brought up the subjects of HBD posting fear, and the
recurring topic of Charlie P. and the AHA in digest #3082.

They said: " the HBD is regarded by many potential contributors
as something of a lions den, that is to say that you can expect to be
shredded if you dare to get involved"

I have to say that I resonate with that statement, as a long time HBD
lurker and seldom poster.  I have posted on rare occasions for the
purpose of asking questions.
However, there have been many times where I have been tempted to answer
a "newbie" type question, but have hesitated to post a response.  Why
this hesitation?  The free-for-alls that have taken place on this digest
on various subjects (which need not be listed here) have often gone to
extreme lengths.....and God forbid if anyone should make a spelling
error!  It's no wonder that people like myself who consider themselves
experienced (but not Guru-level) brewers hesitate to participate.  In my
opinion, this is a loss to the entire reader-ship of the Digest.

This forum is an incredible resource for homebrewing info, both day to
day and in the archives.  It's a shame that a group of us feel hesitant
to participate.  A great deal of what I have learned about brewing was
by reading the responses to other people's questions!

Concerning the on-going Charlie P./AHA bash:  I don't get it myself.  I
have never been an AHA member, and have rarely read Zymurgy.  But I will
say this about Charlie P. - a friend of mine wants me to teach him how
to brew and I just bought him a copy of TNCJOHB.  Other digest members
would go with a different book for a beginner.  But, it is my opinion
that Charlie's whimsical style puts you completely at ease, especially
when you are just beginning.  If I would have started out with one of
those other books (which ARE great works themselves), I don't think I
would have been captivated by the hobby to anywhere near the same
degree.

Thanks for the space.  Now....back to brewing....
Peace and Long Life,
Randy
Middle Earth Brewing Company - Salisbury, NC
Jeff Renner is welcome to stop by for a beer.....




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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 19:03:17 -0400
From: Steve Milito <milito at radonc.musc.edu>
Subject: Lager Temperature



I have just finished building my behemoth lager chamber (~40 cu ft)
which holds two 12.5 gal conical fermentation vats. The cooling unit is
an old 19 cu ft frost free refrigerator. I am venting the cold air
through a 4" duct with a muffin fan to blow air from the freezer. Air
returns into the lower refrigerater via a 4" vent. Box is insulated with
fiberglass. Fairly airtight. The unit will only cool down to ~48 F.

How low of a temperature do I need to do a lager a classic German style
pils. The Miller book says you need to run the secondary fermentation at
32 F, is that necessary, or can I do the primary at 50-55F, and the
secondary at 45-50F.

Any suggestions on how to get the temperature lower.





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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 18:18:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: cburns at jps.net (Charley Burns)
Subject: Aging

Well the 1.125 SG Barleywine is down to 1.040 but the flavors are clashing a 
bit. The last barleywine I made is two years old now and has really blended 
nicely (harsh at first). My question is "what are the best aging 
environmental factors?". Should it be warm (80-90F), cool (70-80F) or cold 
(33-45F)? Should it be carbonated or non-carbonated? Should it be in glass 
or stainless? Bottled, kegged or left in the carboy? 

My gut tells me that reactions between the malt compounds, yeast, yeast 
byproducts (alcohol) and hop compounds will take place more rapidly at warm 
temperatures and I would like to wait less than 2 years to drink this 
barleywine. On the otherhand, I sure wouldn't want to spoil the brew. 

Right now its in a 5 gallon carboy under an ounce of whole cascade absorbing 
flavors and aromas (as of this am). 

Has anyone done any experiments (and recorded the results) with a single 
batch split into various aging categories such as those described above? If 
so, what were the results? 

Charley 



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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 11:43:48 +1000
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Results of Aeration at Bottling Experiment

Dennis Johnson dodges dogma and frivolous subjects by posting the results
of his bottling experiment and has concluded that for him, and for his
recipes and methods, even fairly aggressive aeration during bottling has no
perceptible influence on his beer.

While I thank him for taking the time to report his results, I do believe 
that it is difficult to extend his observations and conclusions to our
situations without some additional information.

1. There is no guaruntee that pouring the beer back and forth between
bottles actually resulted in significant oxygen dissolution.  Dennis
reported that the beer foamed excessively, due perhaps to the dissolved CO2
coming out of solution, and this may have protected the beer from coming
into contact with much oxygen.  This is actually a method of reducing
oxygen contact and why it is recommended that we 'cap on foam'.  Dennis can
you please provide any additional information on what happened during the
'airation' step ?

2. Pouring the beer through the air would not normally allow much mixing of
the beer with air due to the smooth laminar flow pattern.  A more turbulent
flow would be required to mix air into the beer.

3. In addition to the presence of oxygen, the storage temperatures of the
beer has a large effect.  George Fix in his recent BT article reported that
beer with low oxygen levels faired no better then ones with high levels
when stored at 86F(30C).  Dennis, do you have any details on the storage
temperatures experienced by your samples during the six week period ?

4. Fix's data also shows that beers with high oxygen levels, when stored
cool (43F/6C) did not start to show any staling until after 10 weeks. 
Maybe the 6 week period was too short for any effect to become apparent. 
But, if you always drink your beer within this period ( I know that I
always do) then there is no problem.

Perhaps a follow-up experiment would be to split a batch in half to give
more samples.  This would allow one sample and a control to be tasted say
once per week and any differences noted.  This would also provide
information on how the general flavour profile was changing over time. 
Perhaps you are drinking all your beers too soon, or too late.

Finally, I would like to suggest an alternative conclusion to Dennis's
posted results.  The control was actually a low oxygen pickup sample and
that Dennis can take some comfort from the fact that his normal bottling
procedure has produced the same flavour profile as the low oxygen bottle
over the six week storage period.


David Lamotte
Brewing down under in Newcastle, NSW Australia


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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 22:46:14 EDT
From: Utesres at aol.com
Subject: Inimitable English ale 

There's an underlying flavor in English ales that no other beer or American 
imitation seems to have.  It's a sweet, syrupy, honeylike (excellent) flavor.
Fuller's, Youngs, Samuel Smith, Bass...they all have it.  Seems that 
calculated additions of gypsum to the mash and sparge water brings my ESBs 
etc. close, but not quite there.  What gives?

Mike Utes
Hollow Leg Brewery
Big Rock IL

Give me a siphon and I shall move the wort.


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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 22:44:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: jgibbens at umr.edu
Subject: making starters

Hello all.

Is it possible to sanitize by heating at any temp below 212F?  I'm trying
to make a starter by boiling the wort in the glass starter bottle.  Not
much luck.  There just isn't enough heat transfer around 200F to bring
the liquid in the bottle to boil.  Is there any commonly available
chemical (other than etheylene glycol) that can be added to water to
raise its boiling point?  No, I don't have a pressure cooker.
Thanks.

Joe Gibbens


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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 22:54:40 -0500
From: "Stan Prevost" <sprevost at ro.com>
Subject: DamYankee in Kentucky???

Dan Listerman displayed apparent pride in being a former DamnYankee in
Kentucky.

Any Yankee who stays up yonder in Kentucky is called a Good Yankee in
Alabama.

Stan Prevost
Huntsville, AL
(north Alabama, so considered a Yankee by many)
Only 20 miles from Yankeeland (Tennessee)




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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:25:17 -0500
From: David Whitman <dwhitman at rohmhaas.com>
Subject: Application of Science...

Paul Niebergall offers an interesting comparison between brewing and
baking, and makes the (IMHO) excellent point that it would be absurd to
study the process of Twinkie(tm) baking to learn to make good pastry.  I
buy that argument, and don't see a lot of value in studying the process of
making B*d in trying to make beer.  

That said, I still think a good understanding of brewing and food science
is incredibly useful in making good beer and food.  With an understanding
of the underpinnings of what's going on, you can develop your own recipes,
optimized to acheive what YOU'RE looking for.  The exact same science that
teaches how to make a Twinkie that doesn't get any worse if stored for 100
years can reveal how to make a delicate pastry that needs to be eaten
within minutes of coming out of the oven...and is worth hanging out by the
oven to eat.

>Why would I?   I get my information from trusted cook books and T.V. shows.  
>Gasp, did I say T.V.? - that wasteland you say, considered a quality source 
>of information?  Well you should check out Emeril Lagasse some time.  
>I have never seen him start spouting chemical formulas concerning the 
>Malliard reactions involved in browning a pork chop!

I've worshipped at Emeril Legasse's temple in New Orleans, and you won't
hear *me* second guess a man who can do things like that to food.  In fact,
I have a couple of his books...sitting on my shelf right next to Harold
McGee's excellent food science book "On Food and Cooking".  When I want to
follow a specific recipe, I'm often using Emeril.  If I want to change a
recipe or create one of my own, I'm boning up on the relevent science in
McGee.  YMMV, but if you want to have any chance of duplicating my (world's
best, IMHO) barbequed chicken recipe, read McGee...paying particular
attention to the section on the Malliard reaction.


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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 08:24:35 +0100
From: "Nigel Porter" <nigel at sparger.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Why Homebrew

>It would be interesting to know if cost
>is the main reason people got into homebrewing.

I originally started homebrewing to obtain cheap alcohol when I was 
at university. Didn't taste that good, but made the envy of my mates.

Now quality beer and the enjoyment of tinkereing with different 
ingredients are the reasons for brewing. Cost doen't really come into 
it anymore.

Nigel


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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:44:16 -0400
From: rdavis at gator.net (Dave Williams)
Subject: re: basements

Jeff Renner asks why only Yankees have basements:

why aren't basements standard in all of the country (excepting areas with
rock right below the surface or high water tables)?  They add very little to
the cost of a house and double the square footage in the case of one story
houses, or by 50% in the case of two stories.  <snip> Any ideas?
 
Actually a basement adds a pretty good chunk of change to the price of a
house.  I know, I've got one, and I built it.  The same square footage above
ground would have cost half as much.  Makes more sense to build up than
down.  The hole is pretty cheap, but the heavy duty walls needed to keep the
dirt from caving in the basement are pretty pricey. 
 
The reason that Jeff and others of Northern persuasion have basements is
because the foundation of a house has to be below the frost line (and we
don't have one of those in Florida).  Otherwise, water can seep underneath,
freeze, and heave the foundation (and house) out of place.  Since you're
digging a hole to get the foundation below the frost line, and you have to
have those tall foundation walls anyway, it only makes sense to make the
space between them useful.  Thus, basements were born.  
 
In order to justify this as a topical post, I must add that I keep my
fermenting and lagering fridges in my basement.  Store my malt there too. 

Cheers,
Dave Williams
Back Pocket Brewery
Newberry, Florida



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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 06:35:52 -0500
From: Gary D Hipple <ghipple at mmmpcc.org>
Subject: REF: Why HomeBrew?


In HBD 3083 Randy Pressley asks:

>It would be interesting to know if cost
>is the main reason people got into homebrewing.

I certainly don't homebrew because I want to save money. I homebrew for 
the suspense! "What am I going get this time?" From this statement, you 
can deduce I am not a "style" brewer. I can buy "styles." Ahhh... Miller 
Lite, the "classic pilsner!" :-( :-o :-(o)

For instance: I make an IPA with a whole Cascade hop in every bottle. 
Talk about hop nose! I have also added hops to my priming sugar, boiled 
and bottled. Interesting affect. I brew with tree bark, tree sap, spruce 
needles, cat litter (well, that's stretching it a bit). Beers like these 
are hard to find on the shelf. They also do not fair well in 
competitions, but the hell.

I brew for the experimentation, the experience. Not to save a few pennies.



G Hipple
    4455'N
    935' W


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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 07:50:43 EDT
From: KTNeall at aol.com
Subject: What's in a name/growing hops/refractometer corrections/learning

       I guess I could not stay out of the conversation any longer.  Titles 
in our society are important and they do carry weight.  How many times have 
you been introduced to somebody as Dr. So-and-SO?  or Captain So-and-So?  For 
example, my father in law spent much of his adult life in the Navy as a pilot 
and achieved the rank of Captain before retiring.  (We address him as Captain 
Dad, but that is not the point.)  He rents boat slips to people.  One renter, 
formerly an NCO in the Navy, decided to fly the two star admiral flag above 
his boat.  This upset my father in law, as well as the admiral who lived next 
door?  Why?  Because titles carry weight and when the title is unearned the 
status is not deserved.  Certainly not everybody would care or be offended, 
but some would.  I believe Jeff made valuable contributions to this forum, 
and am sorry to see him go.  And that's all I have to say about that.
      I have a first year Willamette hops plant in my backyard.  It appears 
healthy and has a nice green color.  It is fertalized and watered frequently, 
but seems to be stuck at about 16 inches in height?  Any thoughts on why?
      I have recently purchased a refractometer and am anxiously awaiting its 
arrival.  Could somebody email me privately the correction formula with a 
quick explanation.
	Finally, do we have anything to learn from the big commercial 
brewers?  Personally, I think this is an idiotic question.  The answer of 
course is yes.  The simple act of reading about or looking at or talking to 
somebody else about their practices makes you or should make reflect on your 
own practices.  Perhaps you will discard information that you learned as 
unimportant in your own methods, but it forced you to be a critical thinker 
and then a better problem solver.  This might sound stupid, but the worst 
thing you can do is shut out a source of information because you think it 
will be unimportant or not relevant.  You will get stuck in sort of an 
information rut.

Tim Neall


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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 07:53:55 -0400
From: fridge at kalamazoo.net
Subject: Temp controller

Greetings folks,

 In HBD#3083, Randy Ricci asks about potential temp controller 
probe damage from using alcohol as a thermal mass medium.

 I looked at Hoptech's site and it appears that they are selling a 
Johnson Controls A19 series controller. This controller has a tinned 
copper capillary tube and probe. Alcohol shouldn't harm it.

 Be aware that some A19 controllers have an adjustable differential. 
If so, the differential may be changed by moving a small lever inside 
the controller.

 If adding a thermal mass to the probe is necessary, consider using 
either mineral oil automotive antifreeze. Neither material would 
evaporate nor support mold growth. A small bottle with a screw top 
could be used as a container by drilling a hole in the cap large 
enough to pass the probe through and then sealing around the 
capillary with putty or silicone sealer. Be aware that most antifreeze 
solutions are toxic so keep them away from children or pets. 

Hope this helps!

Forrest Duddles - FridgeGuy in Kalamazoo
fridge at kalamazoo.net



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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:03:08 -0400
From: "Jeff Beinhaur" <beinhaur at email.msn.com>
Subject: Page Down Key.....

My page down key finger is getting sore. I'm concerned about carpal tunnel
syndrome. How will I ever be able to pick up my carboys and kegs with such
an affliction. Worse yet, will I be able to lift a pint of beer.  Can we now
finish up with name calling, dogma, catma, science vs. art, big boy
techniques, etc, etc, and get on with the "HOMEBREW" Digest.

Now for a "HOMEBREW" question. I made the mistake recently of putting my
cleaner (B-Brite) in a carboy after fushing it out and then filling with
water and then left it sit for nearly a week outside on the mecadam (sp?)
driveway in the recent heatwave we had hear in the east. When I finally got
around to actually cleaning them they had a film on the inside that I don't
seem to be able to get off. I used my brush that I have for cleaning the
carboys (why can't anyone invent a decent carboy cleaning brush) but that's
not much help. Any suggestions?

By the way, a number of months ago I asked a question concerning what people
were using for mash paddles. I finally got around to getting a new one.
Although a number of people suggested a number of inexpensive solutions,
being a gadget person I decided to buy a 36" SS paddle from St. Pats. For
about $26 (including shipping) this seems like a deal. It's a very heavy
duty paddle and since it's SS I don't have to many cleaning worries. No
affiliation, just a happy customer, yada, yada...........

Jeff Beinhaur, Camp Hill, PA
Home of the Yellow Breeches Brewery





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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 09:38:08 -0400
From: Jim Haynes <Jim.Haynes at dstm.com>
Subject: Snow Goose Winter Ale


Does anyone have a recipe for Snow Goose Winter Ale?  Extract version
preferred, but I'll take what I can get.  

Thanks,
Jim


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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:03:00 -0400
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com
Subject: False Bottoms,The Beetles

HBD-

>From: "Biggs, Gardner" <Gardner.Biggs at sci-us.com>
>Subject: Final RIMS equipment
>
>I have almost completed my RIMS setup and am looking for a few more items.
>
>A mash screen for a 15.5 gal keg
>
>Bimetal temperature probes (3 inch dial with approx 6 inch probe and 1/2inch
>male NPT fitting) one of which must able to be bendable for easy reading.
>

If you still have the top that was cut out (provided you cut out the top, not
cut off the top) you could do what I did-  Drill a couple hundred holes in the
top, and use it as a false bottom.  I covered the tap hole with some brass
shim stock, and crimped it in place.


>From: "Greg Mueller" <brew_meister at hotmail.com>
>Subject: #%$& at * Beetles
>
>I have about a dozen hallertau hope vines growing and are about 20 feet now
>with small cones.  Up until a couple of weeks ago, the were beautiful and
>very healthy.  Then came the infestation of kamikaze beetles.  The remaining
>foliage now looks like mesh.
>
>I've been growing for the past three years and never had a beetle problem.
>I've tried diazinon with no luck and they don't seem to like my beetle bag
>placed 30 feet away.  I've read in the archives that beetles are repelled by
>dead beetles.  I don't thing my spouse would appreciate me making a beetle
>Daiquiri in the blender.
>
>Any suggestions?

I have quite a few Japanese Beetles too.  They don't bother my hops, though.
Why?  Because they are far more interested in the raspberry bushes nearby.
They damage the raspberries, but they don't seem to have affected their yield
appreciably.  I don't know if I could use Grub-X on the raspberries, and get
'em in the grub stage?
As long as they don't reach some critical mass and explode onto the hops, I'll
just leave them alone (although while picking raspberries, what beetles I can
grab, I throw in the pool and let the skimmer get 'em)

I guess my suggestion is plant some sacrificial raspberries.  Then make some
raspberry ales, meads and wines.


Loretta


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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:24:27 EDT
From: Biergiek at aol.com
Subject:  He's Not Qualified to Post Data on the HBD

>Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:08:02 -0500
>From: Dean Fikar <dfikar at flash.net>
>Subject: No-sparge advice
>If I can get off my rear and get motivated enough, I'll >post my no-sparge 
data series along with a best fit >formula which has a pretty impressive 
R-value of about >0.92 for predicting the runoff SG, if there's much 
>interest out there for such esoterica.

Gee Dean, I am not sure if you can do that.  I mean you don't have a post 
graduate degree in physics, chemistry, or microbiology, I don't care if you 
really are a board certified medical doctor.  Hell, you haven't even been 
published in BT yet.  One thing is for sure, if you do decide to post your 
data series you better couch it by identifying it as a "questionable data 
alert", and you damn sure better cite no less than 2.94 X 10^73 technical 
journal references, including the chemical diagrams... don't ever forget 
those molecular diagrams. You wouldn't want to piss off the data cops of the 
HBD because you probably didn't perform your experiments with the proper 
statistical controls, so basically your efforts are meaningless.  If you 
decide to post the data, never, never, never, and I mean never use a moniker 
that would falsely ascribe an academic title to yourself, this would be 
unthinkable heresy.

Kyle, aka Dr. Biergiek
Bakersfield, CA

 ..and if you think this post was serious, you need to tour the cellars of 
Iceland with Dr. Pivo (get the gold package, it is highly recommended), long 
live the Peeve! Dean, please post the data.


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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:31:51 -0400
From: Joe Rolfe <rolfe at sky.sky.com>
Subject: Building codes for 10x10 "closets"

Gary Tucker and his 10x10 basement room,

Sounds like you told the code enforcement officals way to much and did
not get the building code before making the plan. Did you mentioned
brewery/fermentation (bad news that smells of commercialism to a
building inspector)? Should have just told them a basement closet, and
screw them - let them ask the next question. If they tell you 10x10
needs this, that and the other thing...make the closet 9'11x9'11, then
see what they say. For the electrical, you should not need conduit in
a closet. What is a french drain anyway? (the old "beg for forgiveness
/ rather than ask for permission" phrase and "over, under, around or
thru" fits here).  I would redo the terms in the plan. Make it very
brief, and offer not added informantion unless they ask specifically
for it. Call it a closet with a lite. Build that, then after the
inspector comes and does his thing, do yours. Just insure the
electrical and any other utilities that could have effect on your home
insurance is met. Sounds bad, but hey why should they cause you to
spend $30K on something they have not a clue about. Did they send you
to a specific contractor/builder (like the guys brother)?  Excuse me
for this but "F'em". What they dont know wont hurt'em. If you want it
bad enough, you can do it, within your budget.

Go for it.
Joe Rolfe


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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:52:36 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Basements

Thanks to all who responded both on HBD and privately to my question about
the lack of basements in the south and west.  I think that it boils down to
economics, although it's not simple cost of doing it.  As was pointed out,
we in the north have to dig footings below the frost line (42" here in at
0,0,0 Rennerian), so it's not so much additional trouble and cost to go
ahead and build a real basement.  In the south and west, where footings can
be very shallow, there is a good deal work involvedt.  However, there is
more - since builders in these areas don't do build them often, they are
not familiar with them, and apparently charge a whole lot more than here
where they are the norm.

As an example, we bought a quad-level house here in 1982 that was built in
the mid 60's for ~$22,000.  Had it been built as a tri-level without the
half basement and a crawl space without a slab, it would have been $600
less.  Strangely, most of the split levels in the subdivision were built
without the half basement, but all of the ranches and colonials were built
with basements.  Don't know why.  Perhaps the split levels offered more
square footage per dollar and so appealed to the economy buyers.

It's very clear that our northern basements are widely envied!

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 10:04:49 -0500
From: "Rob Dewhirst" <robdew at my-deja.com>
Subject: RE: Temp controllers

Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us> asked:

> Then I remembered reading about how some people have trouble with molds
> growing when too much moisture builds up in the freezer. I thought I could
> avoid potential problems (mold,scum in the water that holds the temp
probe)
> by using rubbing alcohol or vodka for the liquid medium for the temp
probe.

> Would either of these alcohols harm the temp probe? TIA

If you're worried about harming the probe or cleaning it, you can encase the
probe in a small section of copper tubing. Take a very short section and
either crimp the end shut or solder a cap on the end, then place the probe
down inside the copper tube, then place the tube wherever and in whatever
you want (that won't hurt copper).

The key here is you would need some heat transfer compound inside the copper
tubing to help guarantee your probe is closer to the temp of its
environment.  Also keep the mass of the whole assembly as small as possible.

It would also make the probe icky if you ever pulled it out of it's
"cocoon."  Heat Transfer Compound is available from Grainger (part #4E847)
or a good HVAC supply shop.

Personally, I don't put my probe in anything and wipe down the inside of my
converter freezer daily.   The thermometers on my fermenters and the
thermometer on the external thermostat rarely differ by more than a degree
or two.



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---