---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  What's in a name (Paul Haaf)
  No-sparge advice (Dean Fikar)
  Spaten ("dave dow")
  Ramblings (Kevin or Darla Elsken)
  fruit fly starters (Randy Ricchi)
  Irony, Idiots, No Sparge and Sex Change (Lester Long)
  temp controllers (Randy Ricchi)
  What's in a name ("Stephen Alexander")
  re: Yeast health question (Mark Tumarkin)
  Jeff Renner for President ("Luke Van Santen")
  plambic stuff (Jim Liddil)
  Top 10 on the HBD ("Michel J. Brown")
  Aeration at Bottling Experiment (Rick Foote)
  Re: Narrow range pH test strips ("Bob Scott")
  Re: Aplication of Science and Big Boys Techniques (Joel Plutchak)
  Mash out (Demonick)
  Final RIMS equipment ("Biggs, Gardner")
  Building Codes, Temperature controlled Fermentation (RCAYOT)
  Re: Secret Squirrels and Charlie P is Gunna Cop It!! ("Carmen J. Salvatore")
  #%$& at * Beetles ("Greg Mueller")
  Re: Baking, Brewing & All-grain (uhlb)
  Rice as adjunct and ale yeast in pseudo CAP (Jeff Renner)
  Measuring Oxidation (AJ)
  Re: Aplication of Science and Big Boys Techniques (Jeff Renner)
  Why Homebrew (randy.pressley)


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 18:55:26 -0400
From: Paul Haaf <haafbrau1 at juno.com>
Subject: What's in a name

  Page down alert.  Like driving by a car accident, I couldn't help but
read and finally comment on the 'Dr. Pivo' debate.  What about Dr. Pepper
(a soda)?  Dr. J (former basketball player for the Phila. 76'ers, and
part owner of the Phila Coca Cola bottling plant)? How about Dr. Demento
or Dr Johnny Fever (radio DJs, one real, one fictitious)?  There are many
others, and we don't really believe they are real doctors, M.D. or PhD. 
One of the brew mags (or is it a brew shop newsletter?) has a Dr. Hops
and a Mr. Barley.  Are these people really who they say they are?  Who
cares!  If you are informed (or entertained) by them, and are happy with
the results, let them call themselves King Louie the XIII for all I care.
 If not page down, as I hope many do to this post.  Can't we all just get
along?  Of course not.  RDWHAHB.
  Now to make this a beer related post.  I don't know if I could tell the
best thing I learned from the HBD in one sentence, but I can say that
throwing rocks in my brew kettle is one of the most off the wall.  Ever
since that, I haven't had a boil over, or the mess to clean up afterward.
  In accordance with the Rennerian statute of identification-
Paul William Haaf Jr
President, CEO, COO, Head Brewer, Head bottle washer, Royal Taster, and
gofer
Egg Harbor Twp, NewJersey  (That's SOUTH Jersey, rumored to actually be
below the Manson / Nixon line, where the Po-lice have the mirrors on the
insides of their glasses*)  
Paul
"Too many freaks, not enough circuses"
* M/N reference is an obsure Robin Williams bit.  Just giving credit /
blame where it's due.  {8^)}
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.


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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 20:08:02 -0500
From: Dean Fikar <dfikar at flash.net>
Subject: No-sparge advice

Adam Holmes asks how us no-sparge brewers suggest planning the first
no-sparge brew.  This will vary from brewer to brewer but here's my
experience:

In my old sparging days I used to get a pretty consistent 82-85%
efficiency with a normal gravity batch.  With no-sparge, I get about 60%
efficiencies for 1.050 to 1.060 OG batches.  My liquor/grist ratio is
usually about 15.-2.0 qts. water/ lb. of grain for no-sparge.

I would suggest, for the first attempt, making a best bitter and aiming
for an OG of about 1.045-1.048.  If you're off the mark you'll end up
either with an ordinary bitter or an ESB.  No big deal either way.

If I can get off my rear and get motivated enough, I'll post my
no-sparge data series along with a best fit formula which has a pretty
impressive R-value of about 0.92 for predicting the runoff SG, if
there's much interest out there for such esoterica.

Dean Fikar - Ft. Worth, TX



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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:29:56 -0400
From: "dave dow" <dlkd at ime.net>
Subject: Spaten


Hey everyone,
I am looking for a partial mash recipe or an all grain recipe for a Spaten
Premium Lager.  I can't get enough of the stuff.  I found a Munich Lager in
Cat's Meow.  I suppose that would be close but does anyone have a recipe
that they have tried and loved?
Any help will be appreciated.
Dinky Dave
dinkydav at ime.net




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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 22:50:30 -0400
From: Kevin or Darla Elsken <kelsken at adelphia.net>
Subject: Ramblings

So this is my first post to the HBD so I might as well cover all the
bases...

Let's start with a totally non beer questions posed by Jeff Renner. Why
no basements in the South and West? As with most things in this world,
money I think.  In the North you must dig a foundation below the frost
line, so adding a basement is quite practical.  In the south you don't
have to dig so deep, so it is an extra expense. And in some places (New
Orleans?) the water table is so high you don't even bury the dead below
ground!  As for the west, the same may apply, but I also had a brother
in law who built houses in Las Vegas.  They would occasionally run into
rocks below grade, and digging through that was just not practical.

I also must add my 2 cents on the apparent departure of Dr. Pivo.  I too
will miss him.  He always encourage people to experiment for themselves,
and not accept...oh, I hate to use the 'd' word...dogma.  Of course,
anything is dogma if you don't have all the facts.  So everyone here
preaches a little dogma.

Alan McKay brought up dogma, and other posters have even suggested
splitting the HBD into 'science' and 'art'. Well I would hate to be the
one to have to divvy up the posts based on that criteria!  As others
have suggested, the page down key is the best tool here (and by now, I
am sure many of you have used it...).  The HBD is a great resource for
the home brewer.  And if I am having problems with my beer, I am happy
to listen to either scientists or artists if it will help.  OTOH, if you
like your beer, don't worry, yadda yadda.

Now that I have solved all the HBD's problems, I will crawl back into my
hole.  Next post: how to cure world hunger...

Kevin Elsken, BS (you decide)
Little Boy Brewery


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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:02:24 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: fruit fly starters

I just cultured up some wort for building yeast up from slants. The jars
and tubes I use for the wort were first soaked in a bleach solution, then
rinsed, then boiled in a pot of water. I then took the jars and tubes out
of the boiling hot water, filled them with boiling hot wort made from dry
extract, screwed the covers on and let them cool; in effect, canning the wort.

It was then that I noticed that the little black fleck of something that
was floating around in the water that I boiled my containers in was a fruit
fly. At first I thought, no problem, it was boiled (5-10 minutes).

Then I started to wonder...will 5-10 minutes of exposure to boiling hot
water kill the acetobacter present on one fruit fly???

Please, tell me yes (and be correct!).



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Date: 14 Jul 1999 03:33:40 -0000
From: Lester Long <LesterLong at redneck.efga.org>
Subject: Irony, Idiots, No Sparge and Sex Change

IRONY

Stephen Alexander wrote:

>That so many are offended when I call Dr.Pivo by name and go to such great
>lengths to rationalize their feeling of insult says something about the
>power of his posts.

I'm not even sure I understand this, but it can be taken to mean Dr. Pivo has
mesmerized gullible rubes, in the manner of an old-fashioned medicine show con
man peddling Injun cures off the back of a brightly-painted wagon, and that
these rubes then go about singing the praises of the miracle elixir.  Since
I've recently been the most long-winded of the Pivo defenders, I'll assume I'm
included in the above reference to "rationalization of feelings".  I find the
phrase insulting.  It assumes that thought is superior to emotion and that I
was trying to elevate emotion to the status of thought.  That premise is faulty
and the conclusion without basis in fact.  I think I was very clear in
separating how I felt from what I thought.

As to the idea that some newbie will be confused and/or damaged by believing
that Pivo is a "real" doctor, let's get real.  This is the Internet for God's
sake.  If I'm looking through the phone book for somebody to pull my tooth, I'm
more likely to choose "Dr. John Jones" than plain old "John Jones" and I would
hope Jones has earned the title in the manner dictated by we the people in the
form of laws regulating his practice.  If I'm reading something on the
Internet, I take it with a grain of salt, no matter how many titles are
appended to the writer's name.  That's exactly why I don't care how many "real"
doctors are contributing to this group, using their titles or otherwise, unless
they happen to be doctors of *brewing* and even then I would take all that they
say with a healthy dose of scepticism.

In any case, the "problem" is quickly dealt with:
Newbie: Hey guys, is that Pivo a real doctor or what?
Somebody (maybe even Pivo): No, he just calls himself that.  It's a satiric
pseudonym.
Problem solved.  If the newbie is too careless or too scared to ask, then he
got exactly what he asked for.

Doctor John the Night Tripper (New Orleans pianist), his namesake (Voodoo
priest, contemporary of Marie Laveaux) and Doctor Death Steve Williams (former,
or maybe still, pro wrassler) come to mind.  Let's tell them they don't measure
up.  The results might be, respectively, getting a confused smile, getting
turned into a chicken, or getting turned into a bloody puddle on the floor.

IDIOTS

Paul Niebergall wrote:

>We already know that acid lowers pH and if you are trying to acidify your 
>water by adding a pre-determined volume or weight of acid without the aid 
>of a pH meter, you are an idiot.

I guess I'd better start looking for a tatoo artist who can tastefully execute
"idiot" on my forehead, because before I gave up sparging altogether, I used
high-quality pH *test strips* to track my addition of acid to sparge water. 
Apparently fooled myself into thinking the strips were telling me what I needed
to know, as well.  Paul, did you mean to exclude test strips, or did you simply
mean "without the aid of testing"?

NO SPARGE

Adam Holmes wrote:

>Do you see any glaring errors with this method? You brewers that
>have taken good notes on sparge vs. no-sparge batches should be able to
>determine if this is a practical idea that works or not and could report
>back (my notes were lost when my computer crashed). 

I have a spreadsheet that I use to calculate water, malt, hops, temperatures,
etc.  Pretty much everything that goes into the beer on is on one (Lotus 123)
page.  When sparging, I was never able to achieve much more than 77%
efficiency.  I learned to live with that, and that's the figure the spreadsheet
used.  When I quit sparging, I assumed the efficiency George Fix had published
in his no-sparge articles (high 50's, I think) and plugged that into the sheet.
 I then changed the sheet to reflect the percentage I actually achieved (less
than George's) for future uses.  In any case, I can plug any percentage into 
the spreadsheet with little effort and bounce back and forth for comparison 
if I want to. You're right, the hops are unaffected.  Not sure this is what 
you were asking, though.  HIH.

SEX CHANGE

Kris G. Mueller wrote:

>Those of you who assumed I am a woman are wrong.

Guilty as charged.  I apologize for calling you "she".   It occured to me that
Robin Griller could be either male or female so I was careful to remain
gender-neutral writing about Robin, but due to the nature of your post, I made
the assumption you were a woman.  No offense intended.

AND AS A FREE BONUS, MY VOTE FOR HBD HUMORISTS OF THE WEEK:

>Straighten out the kink in your brewery hose - Sandra L Cockerham

>From now on, you must all refer to me as "The Artist Formerly Known as
>Kap'n Salty" or risk my indignation. You wouldn't like me when I'm
>indignant. Of course you probably wouldn't like me anyway, but that's
>not really the point. - The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n Salty

Thanks for the memories,
Lester
 




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Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 23:27:06 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: temp controllers

I just ordered a temperature controller from Hoptech for my new chest
freezer. I remember reading on the HBD that a good way to keep the freezer
from cycling on and off too often is to submerge the temp. probe in water
in the freezer.

Then I remembered reading about how some people have trouble with molds
growing when too much moisture builds up in the freezer. I thought I could
avoid potential problems (mold,scum in the water that holds the temp probe)
by using rubbing alcohol or vodka for the liquid medium for the temp probe.

Would either of these alcohols harm the temp probe? TIA



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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 06:24:48 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: What's in a name

That Dr.Pivo is Jeff Irvine is a fact that was only partially available to
newer readers. and noting it was not intended to offend anyone.  Based on
off-line discussion, I did not offend Jeff and no one else has a right to be
offended over this issue.

The argument that this was some new discovery to gloat over is false.  See
the 1996 archives for Jeff/Pivos posts, or the explicit statement of the
pseudonym by Charlie Rich in 1997.  I clearly recall Charie's post.

What does disturb me is that so many are so willing to make slanderous
claims about my intent.  Claims that cannot possibly be based on an accurate
reading of what I wrote.  To the fellow who made the more blatant threat -
the police now have a copy.

I have been accused of fostering this high noise topic - nonsense.  The post
sat dormant for several weeks before Phil Yates, Alan McKay and lately
Lester Long and others decided to hurl personal insults at me and to make
rash and unfounded presumptions about my motive.  I didn't start this, but I
insist on defending my POV.

Alan writes ...
>Do you think any of us really thought he was a Dr?
Or Paul Niebergal
> Are you as feeble minded as Mr. -S is to believe that the person
>signing his articles "Dr. Pivo"  was actually a doctor?

I know from private email that at least one person did.  Obviously I didn't.
I could discuss Pauls' comment in terms  either of the logical error
contained or of the manners I supposedly lack but ... not here.

I can respect the POV that the "Dr." title was meant as irony, but
conversation over the years with many HBers reveals for example that their
respect for Dr.Fix (a mathematician) is in part based in the irrelevant
title and not on his stellar experience and work.  Some HBers have even made
up credentials for Mr.Fix (did I offend?) which do not appear on his CV.
Sad but true.  Titles do carry unfounded weight amongst HBers.  it is very
clear that even some entries in this thread are from people who did not read
all of Dr.Pivo's posts or understand that he did post technical experiments.

The idea that the title was irrelevant to everyone but me, yet these others
express furor and outrage (and now even threats) when it is noted to be a
pseudonym is non-sensical.  This reaction just proves the name carried some
sort of emotional baggage best left outside a technical discussion.  That is
certain.

That is my last email/post comment on the name issue - public or private.

Steve




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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:16:46 -0400
From: Mark Tumarkin <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: Yeast health question

Eric Reimer asks about using an out of date Wyeast package.

You mentioned that the expiration date was Feb '99, so it is just a few
months old. I don't think you will have any problem using this package,
it really isn't very old. QDA (questionable data alert). I want to state
that I am merely restating what has been said here in the HBD many times
before. No personal exp. I buy my yeast from Heart's Homebrew in Orlando
(no affiliation, just very satisfied cust, yada yada). Perhaps because
their yeast price is one of the lowest I've seen, they seem to sell a
lot of it and the packets I get from them tend to be very fresh.

However, questions of this type have been asked before and the consensus
seems to be that older packets can take longer to swell up but seem to
be just fine. I recall people reporting using very old packets, ie 1 to
2 years, without problem. You might run a search on the archives to get
more info. Also, maybe report back your results as another data point in
an ongoing, unstructured 'speriment.

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, Fl



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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 06:26:48 -0500
From: "Luke Van Santen" <Luke.VanSanten at dot.state.mn.us>
Subject: Jeff Renner for President

I thoroughly enjoyed the breath of fresh air posted by Mr. Renner the 
other day. He came right out and addressed a point of so-called dogma 
instead of engaging in name calling and finger pointing. For that reason, 
I would like to nominate Mr. Renner for President. He seems to be the kind 
of guy we need in that office.

In regards to basements, I know that they are generally not constructed in 
the Phoenix area because of the shallow "caliche" layer (very hard layer 
of minerals deposited during rising and lowering gound water levels). And 
talk about a place that could use some basements!

A Minnesota Yanqui that escaped the Southwest,

San Paco the Plaid

aka

Luke Van Santen
St. Louis Park, MN


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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 07:49:36 -0400
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at vms.arizona.edu>
Subject: plambic stuff




> 1) Liddil talks about using polycarbonate (PC) plastic bottles for
> fermenting. Are these the bottles normally used in water dispensers (big
> translucent blue bottles)? If so, this would be ideal as many plambic
> brewers seem to prefer fermenting in plastic and you can see all the
> action going on.
> 
That is correct.  I also have some of the PC carboys made by Nalgene.
HAving said that be aware that PC undergoes crazing overtime particularly
when exposed to pH=8 or more.  I have had two start to leak if left soaking
with bleach overnight. Only use short term exposure to detergents etc.
Even Nalgene cautions against any long term exposure to high pH solutions.
Now I am using only HDPE and polypropylene for normal beers.

> 2) Any suggestions for pitching schedules for the Brett and P. damnosus?
> Has anyone used or has success with Wyeast's 3278 blend? From what I read
> it's a regular ale yeast, brett, and some lactic bacteria all in one.
> Obviously, this would be the simplest solution, but is it the best (or
> even a good) way to go?
> 

I would prefer you boycott wyeast. :-)

When I move out east I knew things would be different. The whole yankee etc
thread is wacked.  

Some houses in arizona had basements, mainly older ones.  But the climate
in AZ is such that people are outside all the time.  I keep wondering when
summer is going to arrive in CT?  Winters in AZ are not severe and you
don't need or use oil fired furnaces. But if I were to build a new house in
AZ these days I wold have a basement now that I have one.


Jim Liddil



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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 05:35:54 -0700
From: "Michel J. Brown" <homemade at spiritone.com>
Subject: Top 10 on the HBD

1.) The term "Yankees" is a misnomer. It originally referred to a New
England tribe of Indians that became extinct due to small pox. They were
called "Yanquis", and they brewed beer using birch bark!

2.) As sexism is a noun, and sexist is an adjective, perhaps the verb form
should be used. Naw, then the static picture would need to become *active*.
My wife said that the caption should read "Thank you, God, for giving me
such a wonderful new dishwasher, and such a lovely husband to clean up
after..." Am I in trouble now, dear?

3.) Clinitest was used in the health industry by diabetics to see what their
blood glucose levels were. This replaced the Sulkowich reagent test which
primarily detected urine calcium levels, thought to be tied to glucose
levels. Silly scientists didn't even bother to do a double-blind Solomon
test cross experiment to validate the hypothesis!

4.) Aluminum is fine for brewing, as long as you don't clean it with strong
acids ;^) I prefer stainless steel, but as long as its food grade, what
difference does it make?

5.) Now, here, what's all this rubbish about dogma? What about birdma, or
catma? Even carma (sic) for those who enjoy fine automobiles named for cats
(like Jaguars).

6.) Eric (AKA Loretta) has the right to have babies, even though he has no
womb for one -- he still has the right!

7.) Pseudonyms are a simple way to fantasize. Who cares if someone doesn't
have proper credentials? I have more initials after my name that a well
known sci-fi author that started his own religion, but that's another story.
It doesn't seem to help me make better beer. What does, however, is making
careful notes, and changing one thing at a time. That, and not being anal
retentive (see # 9 below).

8.) Red beer? Are we talking communism in our beer now? To get a reddish
glow to your beer, try Mao's book, or more practically, use Vienna malt for
that matter.

9.) Anal retentiveness with tubular sausages? Sounds like a job for Captain
Colonic! He'll dilate that orifice faster than a speeding digit, more
powerfully than an explosive ferment, and is able to leap tall tales in a
single metaphor! All that without using any sausages, mustard, or relish.
Well, maybe a pickle or two...

10.) And remember what The Who said in Tommy: "So put on your eye patches,
put in your ear plugs, you know where to put the cork!"

   Dr. Michel J. Brown, A.A, B.A., B.Sc., M.B.A., M.P.H.,  D.C. {Portland,
OR}
Jeff Renner doesn't really exist, he's only a figment of the server's
imagination
                                  maxx_stryker at xoommail.com
                        http://members.xoom.com/Maxx_Stryker/
      "In the field of observation, chance favors only the prepared mind"

L. Pasteur




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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:07:30 -0400
From: Rick Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Aeration at Bottling Experiment

A possible explanation of the apparent no effect of aeration on bottling
could come from bottle conditioning.  Perhaps enough of the oxygen is
absorbed during bottle conditioning from yeast activity to nullify any ill
effect.  A counterflow bottled sample of homebrew might not fare as well.
It's the yeast.

Rick


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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 06:30:56 -0700
From: "Bob Scott" <rrscott at jps.net>
Subject: Re: Narrow range pH test strips

Eric Reimer asks about where to get the pH strips.  VWR Scientific Products
mail orders them:

http://www.vwrsp.com/

On their web page do a search on "colorphast".

Bob Scott



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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:34:29 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Aplication of Science and Big Boys Techniques

In HBD #3082, Dr. Beer says:
>However, I make bread and occasional french pastries at home and 
>never once researched the techniques used by Hostess, Wonder Bread, Dolly 
>Madison, or the Tasty Cakes Corporation.   Why would I?   I get my 
>information from trusted cook books and T.V. shows.
>...you should check out Emeril Lagasse some time.

   I see your point, and more or less agree.  However, the
scientist in me simply *must* point out the shortcomings of
your analogies.
   First off, when I set out to brew an export stout I sure
as shootin' did look into the recipe and brewing methods of
Guinness (extra stout).  Should I have not done so simply
because they're a large commercial brewer?
   Secondly, the cookbook issue.  A short perusal in any
bookstore will reveal racks upon racks of cookbooks.  Some
are good, some are adequate, some are excellent.  We can find
one for just about any style of cooking, and with a little
work we can find a good one.  Compare those shelves to the
homebrew section of your local bookstore.  What homebrew
section, you say?!  Precisely!  There are a few good homebrew
books, and there are those that tell us to use 6 Tablespoons
(or whatever) of gypsum in our beer.  It's a bit harder to
get a book or two and be able to trust the information
without some peer review and discussion (e.g., the HBD).
   Thirdly, Emeril owns a restaurant or two, and has a TV
show.  He's a >- gasp! -< *highly* commercial baker!  Run
away, run away!
   And lastly, I can point you in the direction of a few
people who apparently consider Tastee Kakes a delicacy.
(I don't trust their taste in beer, either. ;-)
- --
Joel Plutchak <plutchak at uiuc.edu>
A few hour's drive SSW of origin, Rennerian



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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 06:37:15 -0700
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Mash out

John_E_Schnupp at amat.com asked,

>When adding the water for mash-out the mash
>gets fairly "soupy" (at least it seems thinner than I'd like).  I'm
>using a spreadsheet someone sent me that seems to indicate that the
>first runnings are drawn off before the water for mash-out is added.
>Is this correct?  I've been having low efficiency and could see where
>it might increase my efficiency if I get the initial high sugar
>portion of the mash extracted before I boosted to mash-out.  If it is
>correct to take the first running before going to mash-out, do I need
>to recirculate twice?  Or do I add the mash-out water gently
>(sprinkler) so as not to disturb the grain-bed/filter I created
>during the recirculation I did to collect the first runnings?

Just unceremoniously dump in the near boiling water that you are using
for mash out, briefly stir it in, reseal the tun, wait 10 minutes,
then recirculate, then sparge.  You mash out, then sparge.  You only
establish a single grain bed (unless you are batch sparging).

IMHO gently sprinkling your mash out or sparge water just cools it
down and perhaps aerates it to some degree.

It doesn't matter how "soupy" the mash gets at mash out, because at
that point the mash magic is done.  

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax orders
demonick at zgi dot com

Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, '227, any and all
nonsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a download
and archival fee of US$ 500.  E-mailing denotes acceptance of these terms.



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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:37:37 -0500
From: "Biggs, Gardner" <Gardner.Biggs at sci-us.com>
Subject: Final RIMS equipment

I have almost completed my RIMS setup and am looking for a few more items.

A mash screen for a 15.5 gal keg

Bimetal temperature probes (3 inch dial with approx 6 inch probe and 1/2inch
male NPT fitting) one of which must able to be bendable for easy reading.

What is the vendor of choice for the HDB?

TIA

- --------------------------------------------
J. Gardner Biggs
gardner.biggs at sci-us.com

"During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in
creating the Internet." 
                         --Al Gore 


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Date: 14 Jul 1999 08:50:13 -0400
From: RCAYOT at solutia.com
Subject: Building Codes, Temperature controlled Fermentation

     Greg Tucker writes:
     "The county planners required a window for ingress/egress for
     any space larger than 10'x10'.  They also wanted a french drain,
     electrical placed in conduit, etc.  I sent the design out for bids and
     received prices in the neighborhood of $30,000.  All this for a 
     10'x10' room.  My solution?  Shitcan the basement and buy a chest 
     freezer, which I immediately did."
     
     Its too bad that the government has to get involved to such a degree, 
     what is happening?  Next thing will be the licensing of all 
     homebrewers, and then the confiscation of all homebrew!
     
     As for the recent discussions about controlling temperatiure for 
     homebrew, I for one think that the "fermenchiller" insulated ice-box 
     design I got off the internet is a really good solution for me.  I 
     highly recommend that anyone who wishes to improve thier beer by 
     controlling the fermentation temperature to look into this, it is  a 
     great alternative  to the extra refrigerator, actually, I have an 
     extra refrigerator, but it is usually full of beer at temperatures too 
     cold for fermenting ales!  
     
     Roger Ayotte


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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 09:55:23 -0400
From: "Carmen J. Salvatore" <carmen.salvatore at lmco.com>
Subject: Re: Secret Squirrels and Charlie P is Gunna Cop It!!

Phil or Jill Yates writes in HBD 3082:

<snip>

>Regarding the Association, I have no clues as to what has
caused so
>much anger. I am asking that someone may enlighten me on
these matters.

I would expect that a search of the archives would turn up a
whole bunch of enlightening information. More than you
probably care to read actually.

>I must say to you all that the HBD is regarded by many
potential contributors
>as something of a lions den, that is to say that you can
expect to be
>shredded if you dare to get involved.

Hmmm,  I don't think I agree with this or at least that it's
a problem. I am very much a lurker here and have been for at
least 6 years, probably more. I don't post much, for a
number or reasons, but certainly NOT because I'm afraid of
being 'shredded'. When I have asked questions or
participated, I have received an absolute overwhelming
number of responses and not a single one was in any way
shape or form insulting, condescending or argumentative. And
yes, many of the responses I received came from HBD
'regulars'  that seem to currently be under the gun by a
select few here for an over-scientific/commercial approach
to home brewing.

If by 'shredded' you mean challenged, corrected, debated,
etc. -  I guess I would have to say  'so what' - that's what
is supposed to take place here, no?  A question is asked, a
statement made, then a variety of viewpoints are presented
to either support or refute said question/statement. An
exchange of information and knowledge. Is that NOT what's
supposed to happen here? Sure things can get heated at times
 - they always will when people with opposing viewpoints are
together - big deal - I wouldn't let that stop me from
posting or asking/answering questions. When I have asked a
question or made a statement I _expected_ it to be examined
and commented on - negatively or positively. That's what I'm
here for I guess - to exchange information - theoretical,
experimental, practical, empirical etc. I don't know how one
can expect to do that without discussion or debate by people
with varying positions, opinions and viewpoints - some of
which can be held very dear to the heart.

>Personally I don't mind a bit of a
>shredding, makes you sit back and look at yourself, but I
am sad to think
>that many potential contributors don't want to get
involved.

Me too - but I don't see that much of a problem here. I
think those that don't want to get involved for fear of
getting 'shredded' are seeing a problem that doesn't exist -
or at the very least exists in rare cases in which other
circumstances are involved. I say post away, don't be shy,
don't be afraid to ask/answer questions, offer advice and/or
information.  But, most importantly, don't be so unrealistic
as to expect that what you have to say will be taken as
gospel and not challenged or commented on. Be ready to
defend what you say and be willing to listen to what's being
said in return.  Develop a bit of a thick skin and all will
be well.

Carm







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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 06:57:11 PDT
From: "Greg Mueller" <brew_meister at hotmail.com>
Subject: #%$& at * Beetles

I have about a dozen hallertau hope vines growing and are about 20 feet now 
with small cones.  Up until a couple of weeks ago, the were beautiful and 
very healthy.  Then came the infestation of kamikaze beetles.  The remaining 
foliage now looks like mesh.

I've been growing for the past three years and never had a beetle problem.  
I've tried diazinon with no luck and they don't seem to like my beetle bag 
placed 30 feet away.  I've read in the archives that beetles are repelled by 
dead beetles.  I don't thing my spouse would appreciate me making a beetle 
Daiquiri in the blender.

Any suggestions?


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com


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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 08:23:19 -0600 (MDT)
From: uhlb at cobank.com
Subject: Re: Baking, Brewing & All-grain

> Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 10:41:56 -0500
> From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
> Subject: Aplication of Science and Big Boys Techniques

An excellent post.  I had never thought of it that way before (we don't
research Wonder Bread when baking; why research Coors when brewing?), but
I think that I quite agree.  The only real argument which can be made is
that while baking and cooking are alive and well, brewing is a (mostly)
lost art which needs rediscovery.  I think that it's been rediscovered...

I brewed my first all-grain batch on Saturday.  Eight lbs. British 2-row,
2 lbs. Gambrinus ESB, 1 lb. Caramel 70, 1 lb. Munich, 2 oz. Kent Goldings,
1 oz. Fuggles.  It's bubbling happily away.  When it's done I'll post the
recipe if it's any good.  I haven't calculated it yet, but I had an SG of
1.050-1.060 (expected about 1.040), so I added water to 1.042.  I figure
that extract must have been fairly efficient.  Who knows 'til I run the
numbers.
  As an aside, this is the first time I've used my hydrometer in years.  I
normally don't care what my SG is, what my %ethanol is or when
fermentation is done (my method is to rack when foam subsides, then wait a
week; works for me).  But I figured that, this being my first all-grain
batch and all, I might find it worthwhile to see what I am doing.

Bob Uhl



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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:13:03 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Rice as adjunct and ale yeast in pseudo CAP

Brewers

I have often asked been asked questions about Classic American Pilsners
(CAP) - the use of rice and the use of neutral ale yeasts.  I used both in
my last batch, possibly confounding the results, but what the hey.

Rice - cereal mash and lauter went fine as described in an earlier post.
But I miss the flavor of corn.  The rice seems to have just diluted the
malt, whereas corn seems to add to the flavor profile and complement the
malt.  Corn also provides a kind of sweetness, or at least some similar
impression, that the rice does no.  The rice beer is drier.  This didn't
surprise me, but I am puzzled by the occasional references in old texts and
brewing logs to the apparent interchangebilty of corn and rice.


Ale yeast - I used Nottingham (3 packs/8 gallons) and kept the wort/beer
temperature at ~63F (~17C).  Fermentation was not terribly vigorous.  Then
I kegged and aged at 40F for 2 weeks.  There is a subtle fruitiness and the
beer isn't wuite "lagery," but it's a pretty good compromise.  I'm not sure
how much affect the cold aging had, but I think I can recommend pCAP
technique for those unable to cold ferment and truly lager.  Skip the rice,
though.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 10:10:16 -0500
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Measuring Oxidation

Caution: Contains information partially derived from professional
brewing literature. Those who are afraid of learning something from such
sources should page down now!

Mark Bayer asked if it is possible to measure the oxidation in beer
quantitatively. Yes, it is. You will find this discussed in DeClerk at
some length. Whether these measurements are meaningful or not is a
separate question which is on my ever growing list of things I'd like to
look into some day.

Briefly, one measures the oxidation-reduction potential (ORP) using an
inert (platinum, gold) electrode against a pH style reference electrode.
Combination (i.e. ORP/reference) electrodes are now available and cost a
little over a hundred bucks normally. The electrode is conneceted to a
millivolt meter. Most pH meters have a mV function and many are sold as
"pH/ORP/ISE" meters (with the last meaning "ion specific electrode").
The electrode produces a voltage

E = E0 + (RT/nF)ln([concentration of oxidized]/[concentration of
reduced]) + (RT/F)pH

T is the temperature, R is the gas constant  and F is Faraday's
constant. (RT/F) is about 58 mV at room temperature. Eo is a constant
associated with the configuration of the electrode, particularly the
reference. n is the number of electrons transferred in a particular
redox reaction (and there are many).

To use the electrode one needs to determine E0 and (RT/F). (RT/F) is
obtained by the use of a pair of pH buffers:  (RT/F) = (change in
measured E)/(pH1 - pH2)  where pH1 and pH2 are the pH's of the buffers.
Once (RT/F) is known it remains to determine E0 for the electrode and
this is done by zeroing out the ln term which is effected by placing the
electrode in a redox system with equal amounts of molecules in the
oxidized and reduced states. This is easily accomplished by adding a
pinch of ninhydrin to one of the buffer solutions. Then E0 = E(measured)
 - (RT/F)pH.  Now you are ready to measure ORP! But what does it tell
you?

First, if you are not very, very careful it will tell you that you have
exposed your sample to air. Oxygen is, of course, a very powerful
oxidizing agent and, if you attempt measurement on beer in the open air,
the ORP will steadily climb as oxygen from the air enters the sample.
DeClerk describes elaborate fixtures for obtaining samples and
presenting them to the reference and ORP electrodes without letting air
touch them. Homebrewers could doubtless kluge up arrangements of, say,
small flasks with tubes and pinch cocks such that they could be purged
w/ CO2 and then "counter pressure" filled from a Corny keg. For bottles,
I've fiddled a little with a disposable "glove box" which is a big
sandwich bag with gloves built in and an inlet tube for CO2 or nitrogen.
You cut a small hole in the bag, pass your pH, ORP and RTD wires through
it and then seal around the wires with a tie wrap. You put the beer, an
opener, beakers etc. into the bag, seal it, pressurize with nitrogen and
then open the beer, pour into a beaker and procede to measure.

I think that perhaps there is something to be learned from ORP but as I
don't see it referenced in more modern brewing texts (M&BS, Hardwick,
Kunze...) I assume that it has been at least temporarily discarded by
commercial brewers as a useful parameter. Beer ORP responds dramatically
to oxidizing and reducing agents. Air exposure has been mentioned
already. If you add a pinch of ascorbic acid to beer while monitoring
ORP you will see the ORP plummet. So suppose I have a beer with an ORP
you find offensively high. I just add a pinch of ascorbic acid while
your back is turned and abnnounce "Meter burped. ORP's OK now."  Have I
really fixed the beer? That's the kind of question I can't answer at
this point but this is a subject in which I am very interested. Mark
said "...if there is [ a way to measure], it would be
interesting to examine data for bottle-conditioned beers as a function
of
some of the "input" variables (headspace air, yeast strain, storage temp
and
time)."  Amen to that.

Note: DeClerk refers to "rH" rather than ORP.  rH = ORP/(RT/2F) and thus
is sort of on the same basis as pH. Beer rH's tend to run in the 18-22
range if I remember correctly.



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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:16:32 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Aplication of Science and Big Boys Techniques

"Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com> wrote
>So let me ask:  If you wanted to make nice crusty, yeasty,
>sour-dough rolls (umm, I hungry), would you research the techniques used
>by Wonder Bread? <snip> No you would not, because producing these
>products has nothing to do with quality baking at home.

Funny you should use that analogy, Paul.  As long time readers know, I have
a French bread bakery in a separate part of my home that I've run for
nearly 20 years, starting as a very part time business when I stayed home
with the kids (who are now grown), and now full time.  What you suggest we
wouldn't do is exactly what I did when I was developing my recipe for
traditional French baguettes, something that is virtually not available in
most parts of the country, and even much of France.  I produce on basically
an overgrown home-scale, not much like a regular commercial concern.  Early
on, I read all the bakery engineering and science texts I could lay my
hands on, which included such abominations as continual batch process
breads (some English process called Chorleywood sticks in my mind),
air-whipped doughs (for very short dough fermentations), etc. , and lots of
good science and research.  I learned what changes occur in dough and
gluten during fermentation, how to maximize flavor but still keep the dough
from becoming overmature and falling apart, and lots else.

What the Wonder Bread people are doing is trying to take as many shortcuts
as possible.  I just learn how to avoid doing what they do.  I found out
how traditional bread was made and the science that makes it work.  I
learned how steam affects crust, how salt affects dough structure and
fermentation, what kneading (mechanical development) does, and so on.  Now
I make my bread with perhaps 10% of the yeast that commercial bakeries use,
don't knead it, let it ferment (rise) at low 60sF twice over 18 hrs. before
shaping.  I have what I immodestly call "The Best French Bread in Town" and
could easily sell 10x what I can make, but I like working for (by) myself.
It's a triumph of tradition over science, but it was helped by science.

I also have taught many adult education classes on bread making, and am
able to tell students why they do something, not just what.  This helps
them get a feel for the bread and not just make it out of a cook book.
They can adapt recipes confidently.  I couldn't have done this without the
"big-boy" research and texts.  Similarly, I think we can learn from
"big-boy" brewing research, as long as we keep our eyes on traditional
technique and the final product.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Wed, 14 Jul 1999 11:49:49 -0500
From: randy.pressley at SLKP.COM
Subject: Why Homebrew

Several months ago I saw a post listing the
reasons people homebrew.  The main reason
being that it saves you money if you don't count
labor.  It would be interesting to know if cost
is the main reason people got into homebrewing.
As for me, I just thought it would be a neat
thing to try, which it was and inventory turns are
much faster than with wine.  By the way here's 
how much it costs me to make beer including
labor.

$70/six pack (what a deal!!)


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---