---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Honey/Electrode Cleaning/Phytic Acid pK's/Tip (AJ)
  Brian, Changes at the AHA (Ed Busch)
  Cheap burners and pot (Bob Devine)
  hoses & foam ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  hop harvest (Mary Howard Schramer)
  Mine has a propeller on top (ThomasM923)
  Re:bt and japanese beetles (Rod Schaffter)
  New Users' Guide to the HBD (Kevin or Darla Elsken)
  Pressure Canning Wort Starters (Eric Schoville)
  No sparge revisited (Louis Bonham)
  Mid-life priorities, and no-sparge questions ("Guy and Norine Gregory")
  Primary vs Secondary (Kirk.Fleming)
  Starters from -after- the last runnings? ("Michael Gasman")
  Starter stuff... (Jason Henning)
  Primary vs. Secondary revisited (Eric R Lande)
  13th Annual Great Taste of the Midwest! (Madison Homebrewers)
  Early hops harvest, oxygen barrier bags ("Stew Cady")
  Under pressure (dum-dum-dum-duh-duh-lum-dum...) (Pat Babcock)
  assumptions about the AHA (Marc Sedam)
  Pressure Canning wort starters ("Sieben, Richard")
  re: Charlie Bamforth goes HSA crazy! ("David Kerr")


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

* The HBD now hosts eight digests related to this and a few other hobbies.
* Send an email note to majordomo at hbd.org with the word "lists" on one 
* line, and "help" on another (don't need the quotes) for a listing and
* instructions for use.
*


Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org. 
**SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and
  the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail!

Contact brewery at hbd.org for information regarding the "Cat's Meow"

Back issues are available via:

  HTML from...
        http://hbd.org
  Anonymous ftp from...
	ftp://hbd.org/pub/hbd/digests
	ftp://ftp.stanford.edu/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer
  AFS users can find it under...
        /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer

COPYRIGHT for the Digest as a collection is currently held by hbd.org 
  (Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen). Digests in their entirity CANNOT be 
  reprinted/reproduced without this entire header section unless 
  EXPRESS written permission has been obtained from hbd.org. Digests
  CANNOT be reprinted or reproduced in any format for redistribution
  unless said redistribution is at absolutely NO COST to the consumer.
COPYRIGHT for individual posts within each Digest is held by the
  author. Articles cannot be extracted from the Digest and
  reprinted/reproduced without the EXPRESS written permission of the 
  author. The author and HBD must be attributed as author and source in
  any such reprint/reproduction. (Note: QUOTING of items originally
  appearing in the Digest in a subsequent Digest is exempt from the
  above. Home brew clubs NOT associated with organizations having a
  commercial interest in beer or brewing may republish articles in their
  newsletters and/or websites provided that the author and HBD are
  attributed. ASKING first is still a great courtesy...)

JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 01:36:50 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Honey/Electrode Cleaning/Phytic Acid pK's/Tip

The tale on botulism, honey and infants is that honey does indeed
contain botulinus spores (as do many, many things on the face of the
earth). Botulinus spores cannot germinate at low pH. This is why we can
can (can tin?) acid foods like tomatos without pressure sterilization.
In the adult stomach the pH runs 1 - 2 or so  i.e. plenty low enough to
squelch botulinus spores thus no problem for adults eating honey. In
infants the pH is substantially higher for the first couple of years
hence the reasoning that botulinus spores might be able to germinate and
the recommendation that honey not be given to infants.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Jack Schmidling asks about making up 0.1N hydrochloric acid.  Hardware
store hydrochloric acid seems to run about 9 N. Thus diluting it 89:1
with water would give you approximately 0.1N (approximately beacuse the
specific  gravity of strong HCl solutions are not quite 1 and because it
is sold in various strengths in hardware stores). pH meter electrode
rejuvenation often calls for cycling back and forth between 0.1N HCl and
0.1N NaOH. The latter can be bought as part of wine acid testing kits.
In brewing. a protein coat is often part of the problem. The low pH of
the HCl will aid in removal of the protein but better still are special
pH electrode cleaners incorporating proteolytic enzymes. All World
Scientific in Lynwood, WA sells such a product for brewers.

Given all of the above the sad fact is that pH electrodes have a limited
life. If you get 2 years out of one used in brewing you have done well.
There are lots of things that can result in a life shorter than 2 years.
Heat is a real destroyer. Plugged reference junctions are simple to
clear in some designs but impossible (or nearly so) in others. Non
refillable electrodes are useless when the electrolyte in the gell is
depleted.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Warning: Heavy Science follows.

A month or two back there was heated debate about the pK's of phytic
acid. Just why this was I don't remember but I have a file of
correspondence somewhere. Anyway, I have some estimates. They are 1.11;
1.16; 1.88; 1.92; 1.93; 2.98; 5.98; 7.49; 9.62; 11.59; 12.10 and 12.68.
I probably have no business putting the second decimal place on  as
these values were obtained by a simple experiment. I'll be brief in
describing it. Interested parties can contact me for further details. I
put 0.3 mL of approximately 50% phytic acid solution into 50 mL of water
and titrated with sodium hydroxide in small pH steps. I plotted total
milliequivalents of base added vs pH. I then mathematically modeled an
acid with 12 protons. It is quite clear from the shape of the data curve
that there are lots of protons with pK's around 2 (I'd figured there'd
be 6), several around 12 one or two at 7 and one around 10. I put values
like those into the model and calculated the base required to acheive
the various levels of pH.  A curve from these calculations was overlain
on the experimental curve and the pK's manually tweaked to improve
agreement. Final tweaking of the pK values was done with "simulated
annealing", an inelegant but powerful technique which will get the
analyst out of many a dark corner. The results reported above are those
from the annealing algorithm.

The significance of this is that at dough in pH (5.2 - 5.8) half of the
releaseable protons are dissociated (because their pK's are all well
less than dough-in pH values). A corner (there are 6) of phytic acid
looks like

    |
H-C-O-P(O)(OH)2. The carbon is bound to the carbons at adjacent corners
    |

The two hydrogens (total 12) in the (OH) groups
are available as confirmed by the data. Thus at mash pH the acid's
corners look
           |
like H-C-O-P(O)(OH)O+ i.e. they are ionized. In a real mash these ions
are the
           |
result of hydrolysis of phytin i.e. the calcium/magnesium salt of this
acid. Further hydrolysis of the acid ion catalyzed by phytase, results
in the release of inorganic phosphate in various stages of protonation
and if calcium is present, as it will be from the phytin and more so
where the brewer has augmented it, precipitation of calcium phosphate
with concomittant pH reduction will occur.

My gut feel was that the phosphate groups would be far enough apart and
sheilded from one another by the carbon ring that the first protons
should have behaved similarly to those of phosphoric acid (for which pK1
= 2.12). These data confirm that hunch to a certain extent and now you
know my bias going in.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Finally, we need a tip from commercial brewing to keep alive an
appreciation that so much of what we do as homebrewers is derived from
commercial practice. How about whirlpooling? In modest size breweries
(the giants tend to use filters and centrifuges) the hot wort is often
led from the kettle into a shallow cylindrical vessel. You'll have no
trouble recognizing it on your next brewry tour by the fact that the
wort pipe enters tangentially. This imparts a swirling motion as the
wort is pumped in. To see what happens take your brewing pot, put a few
inches of water in it then break up a tea bag and dump in the leaves.
Now genty swirl the water with a spoon, paddle etc. All the tea leaves
collect in the center and this is exactly what happens to the hot trub
in the brewery. Many homebrewers whirlpool as one does in the tea
experiment i.e. by stirring with a spoon. They then siphon off the
de-trubbed wort from the edge of the vessel.

- --
A. J. deLange
Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.




Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 20:46:04 -0400
From: Ed Busch <filter at rcn.com>
Subject: Brian, Changes at the AHA

To: all HBDer's:
>From : Ed Busch

Subject: Brian, changes at the AHA

	I've seen some of the postings on HBD about Brian Rezac's situation.
They're frustrating. I've seen calls for quitting the AHA, starting a
competitive association, and boycotting the Y2K conference. This is
occurring at a time when things are really changing at the AHA.
	This year, for the first time, the conference was run by members. Alberta
Rager and the volunteers from the Kansas City area did a bang-up job.
Attendees paid a lot less than in previous years and had a better time.
This is the format that we're looking at for the future: AHA member-run
conferences.
	The Board of Advisors is getting more and more involved in the activities
of the AHA, and the BOA is now an elected board. Rob Moline was the first
elected member. This year, three or four seats will be up for election. The
current members will have to stand for re-election against all-comers every
three years. This means that the board members must be responsive to the
members' wants and needs, or they will lose their seat. Someone else that
the membership really wants will replace that person.
	If you really think that you are good enough, run for a seat. If you're
elected to one of the seats, you will have more responsibility and more
involvement in AHA programs than ever before.
	We're just in the early years of electing board members. Rob Moline was
the first elected member. Every seat is an elected seat for a term of three
years. Right now, we're setting the schedule of which seats are elected
what year. You can only be re-elected for two more times, unless you become
an officer. Even then, after your stint as an officer, you will have to
resign from the board for at least one year before you can run again. 
	I'm the one who wrote the bylaws for the BOA (with help from Cathy Ewing).
The term limits affect me as well. I step down as chairman at the end of
this year. I remain on the board for one more year, and then I have to
resign. I have to stay off the board for at least one year before I can run
for election again. My hope is that this enforced turnover will get more
AHA members involved.
	AHA members will also run the yearly conferences. This year, the Kansas
City brewclubs ran the conference. Next year, AHA members in Michigan will
run the conference. After that, we're asking other clubs to submit bids for
2001 and 2002. Tell the BOA why your club(s) should be the next one to run
the conference. The BOA will pick the locations of the conferences.
	In the middle of these changes, a personnel problem has the the vocal part
of the HBD yelling and screaming. I hope they'll get over this, but I fear
that in their zeal to exact a pound of flesh, they'll punish homebrewers
like you.

Ed Busch
Chairman, AHA Board of Advisors
Member, AOB Board of Directors.





Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 22:05:50 -0600
From: Bob Devine <bob.devine at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Cheap burners and pot

If anyone is looking for a large boil pot and a burner,
take a look at:
http://www.ubid.com/misc_asp/GenAuctionFrame.asp?AuctionID=173187&CategoryID=21

If the link doesn't work, use the search feature to look
for "turkey" because U-Bid seems to carry this item on
a fairly regular basis.

This is the turkey deep fryer that you can sometimes find
in Price/Costco style stores but the auction format means
you might save a few bucks.  When I last looked, the winning
bids were in the $60-$80 range.

I haven't bought one from U-Bid so I can't vouch for the
quality but it looked like a cheap way to do full-boils for
large batches.

Bob Devine


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 00:18:16 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: hoses & foam

Dave Burley queries >>Personally, I cannot see how it would work,
at least the way it has been explained in the  past
(assigning some pressure drop per foot of line)
makes absolutely no sense to me.  

  Well, part of your misunderstanding is that the pressure
drop per length of hose is not just assigned, it is measured.
These pressure drops remain *for most practical purposes*
linear through a wide range of pressures and velocities.
  To avoid foaming a beer you don't want turbulence or
sudden drops in pressure. So if the kegs' head pressure
is dissipated through a length of hose and there is no severe
drop of pressure as the beer exits the faucet, you get minimal
foaming. The beer doesn't foam in the tubing because the
pressure drop is slow and consistent through the length of
the tubing, and with beverage tubing the walls are intentionally
ultra-smooth to minimize turbulence, not to say there is no
turbulence, but so little we can deal with it. Also if you adjust
the length of the tubing so that output is approximately
1 gallon a minute; when the beer strikes the mug the turbulence
will be enough to raise a nice collar to make a pleasing presentation.
No turbulence + no sudden drops in pressure=nice smooth pour.

Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 05:50:44 -0500
From: Mary Howard Schramer <maryschramer at mailexcite.com>
Subject: hop harvest

I just harvested 9 oz chinook hops off my backyard vine....anyone else
have an early season like this?
I usually don't harvest for over a month.  These are three year old
vines...would that have anything to do with it or just the weather?  It
looks like I will get more hops later.  Anyone ever harvest twice in one

year?
I'm in the chicago, IL area btw...
thanks and see you....
- ------
kevin F schramer
humulus at megsinet.net




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 08:19:53 EDT
From: ThomasM923 at aol.com
Subject: Mine has a propeller on top

In HOMEBREW Digest #3097, Brad McMahon wrote:
 
"Q. How did house brewers know what temp. to mash at before the 
invention of thermometers?

A. If the water was just too hot to stick your hand in, you've
reached strike temperature!

Some times you just have to look at brewing without the
science hat on...."

I, on the other hand, would rather don my science cap (and use my magic 
science stick) just long enough to avoid scalding my hand.

Thomas Murray
AKA Male Nurse Fermentum
Maplewood, NJ

"Are we not men? We are Pivo!"


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 08:50:09 -0400
From: Rod Schaffter <schaffte at delanet.com>
Subject: Re:bt and japanese beetles

JPullum127 at aol.com asks:

> now that we have thouroughly  covered japanese beetles, what do i 
>do about the nutsedge that is taking over my front lawn?

Take the hot water from your wort chiller and pour it on each plant. 
Cooks them alive, and waters the grass at the same time.  Don't miss,
though, or you might end up with some interesting designs in your 
lawn.

Cheers!

Rod Schaffter, the Master of all he Surveys (and yes, I _do_ have the
diploma, so I can say that!) ;-)


Hockessin, DE


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 09:09:31 -0400
From: Kevin or Darla Elsken <kelsken at adelphia.net>
Subject: New Users' Guide to the HBD

I know that there are many new home brewers out there who are reading
the HBD who are looking for useful and practical tips on how to make
beer at home.  As a new brewer, it can be difficult sometimes to decide
what aspects of the crafts are the most important to master, and which
aspects can be largely ignored with little critical effect on the beer.

As an example of the latter, I offer the post from Eric Panther
concerning Charlie Bamforth and Hot Side Aeration:

>  Ways to minimize HSA include:
>  - mash in at the highest temperature possible (ie. no protein rest!), to
>    reduce oxygen solubility in wort and accelerate denaturing of lipoxygenase
>  - use deaerated or preboiled water for all operations (store with lid on to
>    prevent O2 pickup)
>  - prefill mash/lauter/boiler with N2 or CO2 to minimize oxygen pickup during
>    mash-in and transfers
>  - avoid copper or iron brewing vessels or elements (to minimize the
>    formation of activated forms of oxygen)
>  - use an inert gas blanket on top of mash and wort
>  - ensure the clearest possible lauter runoff, to minimize wort unsaturated
>    fatty acid composition

Trust me, you can make very good, excellent, tasty, "your friends will
love it" beer without doing the above.  I have done it over 20 times
myself.  

Now let me point out some of these suggestions do make sense (for other
reasons).  There have been many plausible and practical arguments for
doing single temperature infusion mashes (and that can have a huge
effect on the character of your beer).  Also, it is good practice to
avoid splashing hot wort.  Why?  Its hot! It could burn you!  You could
put an eye out!

In short, there are some important aspects to control in home brewing. 
The above suggestions fall wayyyyy down on that list (like right before
No. 157, Remember to close the garage door when you are done).

Eric's final thought:

>  I would say that unless a homebrewer followed these procedures, 
>  one could not really claim to have climbed the 
>  Everest of the art.

>  Any Sir Edmunds out there, or just a bunch of weekend bushwalkers?

Why climb Mt. Everest?  "Because it is there."  Why go completely anal
in worrying about HSA?  "Because I think it is there."    For me, I
don't see it, it is not there, I choose not to climb.


Kevin Elsken
Little Boy Brewery


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 09:30:37 -0500
From: Eric Schoville <eschovil at us.oracle.com>
Subject: Pressure Canning Wort Starters

Matt Birchfield asks some questions about Pressure Canning Wort
Starters

>1- What should the S.G. of the canned wort be, or does it matter in
>relation to my second question?

Instead of worrying about a specific S.G. for my wort starters, I
simply can the extra wort from the brew kettle.  

>2- What temperature, pressure and time should be used for safe
>canning, and how full should the jars be?

I typically pressure can at 10 to 15 psi for fifteen minutes.  For
lighter starters, I typically use the lighter pressure, because the
wort darkens _significantly_ when pressure cooked.  I over pressure
cooked some pilsner wort, and it turned out to be a medium amber
color!  

>3- How long will the canned wort last?

Theoretically, it should last indefinitely as it is sterile.  I have
only been pressure canning starters for about six months, and the
first wort that I did is still good.

>4- Are there any special steps (boiling again, etc.) that should be
>taken to use the canned wort, or just flame the jar, pour it into the
>starter fermentation jug and pitch yeast?

Because it is sterile, just flame the jar, pour it in the jug and
pitch the yeast.  It is way too easy!

>5- When canning wort do you need to pressure can, or can you "steam
>can"?  How 'bout immersion in boiling water?

I pressure can, because I have a big pressure cooker.  I know people
who have "steam canned", with success, but when "steam canning" always
be sure to check that your wort hasn't gone off.

>6- What are the chances, circumstances, risks, etc., or doing it
>wrong?

If you read your pressure cooker manual very well, the chances of
doing it wrong are fairly miniscule I think.

Good Luck!

Eric Schoville
Flower Mound, TX
http://home1.gte.net/rschovil/beer/3tier.html


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 12:11:38 -0500
From: Louis Bonham <lkbonham at hypercon.com>
Subject: No sparge revisited

Hi folks:

Bob Uhl and Bret McMahon muse about no-sparge brewing and the technique of
making several beers from one mash.  As they both note, this is an ancient
technique; as I mentioned in my BT article on no-sparge brewing (BT, July/August
98), the practice is even alluded to in Shakespeare (King Henry VI (Part II),
Act IV, Scene 2).  Indeed, as Randy Mosher discussed in his article on
parti-gyle brewing (BT, March/April 1994), the modern technique of "entire"
brewing (i.e., boiling the first and sparged runnings together, as opposed to
making different beers from each set of runnings) is a fairly recent innovation
in commercial brewing.  Until about the late eighteenth century, brewers could
have mash / lauter tuns that were pretty much as big as they wanted (think: big
wooden vats), but the size of the kettles that could be fabricated and fired was
limited.  Once the technology developed that allowed for the construction and
use of significantly larger kettles, it became more economical to simply make
one beer out of all the runnings.

Since the BT article came out, I've received dozens of comments from folks who
report that they have tried the no-sparge technique and have found that it makes
a significant quality difference in their beers.  If you've not tried it, please
do . . . you'll get better beer with less work.

Another neat no-sparge / parti-gyle trick . . . Paul Farnsworth tells me that
when he used to work in the breweries in England, they'd make barleywine from
first runnings, then add a little bit of chocolate or black patent malt to the
mash tun, refill it, and use these the second runnings to make mild.  (I've
found that using carafa works particularly well.)   This works out great . . .
on my system, I can fill the mash / lauter tun (converted 1/2 bbl. keg) with
about 40 lbs of grain and mash very thick (0.75 q/lb).  The first runnings from
this will easily yield 5 gallons of 27P (SG 1.111) barleywine.  Add about 1/3 lb
of carafa to the grist (a little less if you used a fair amount of crystal in
the mash, a little more if you didn't) , refill and recirculate a bit, and
depending on your desired OG and how hard you sparge the grist you can easily
get 12-15 (or more) gallons of very nice mild.

LKB



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 11:04:15 -0700
From: "Guy and Norine Gregory" <guyg at icehouse.net>
Subject: Mid-life priorities, and no-sparge questions

Colleagues:

I'm not a doctor.  Perhaps we should just call Jeff "Doc Pivo" in honor of
his good contributions. Please come back, Doc.

Sorry you lost your job, Brian.  You'll find another.

I'm not a member of the AHA.  If you don't want to be either, please send
them no money immediately.  You won't be recieving a lot of things folks
seem to whine endlessly about. .  I will not be a member of IHA or BFDHA or
whatever, either (Sorry, Skot) so I won't be whining about that
organization.  At this stage of my life, I have other things to whine
about....hair in the ears, etc.  End of whining about whining.


No sparge:

Has anyone tried to no-sparge brew a rye?  I usually use about 10 lbs of
grain, about 20percent of which is rye....and I mash at about 1.5 quarts per
pound, sparging with about 1 quart per pound. Rye beers seem to retain more
water than a straight barleymalt base, so I'm somewhat concerned about
yield...I brew for taste, variety, and volume, so..If I must give up volume,
I'm wondering about the taste.

Perhaps others with experience no-sparging rye or corn added beers could
discuss the charachter of the beer relative to sparged brews of the same
recipe.

I'd love lots of numeric data, but as a daytime scientist, I'm really more
into the art and craft of brewing..so just some empirical observations would
be nice.  Thanks.

Cheers!

Guy Gregory
Lightning Creek Home Brewery
Spokane, WA

Now in an easy-open, new beer fridge.




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 14:18:35 -0500
From: Kirk.Fleming at born.com
Subject: Primary vs Secondary

RE: #3096 where Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com> asked about
better performance with 2ndary fermentation.  For pale ale, at least,
I've seen no benefit to a 2ndary.  Since I think you indicated the same
personal experience I wonder why you're bothering.  The purging of the
headspace to remove air is also, IMO, a crock of hooey.  Of course, I
may be biased since I only do open fermentation where headspace volume
approaches infinity, and any attempts to purge it are contraindicated.
:-)

Kirk Fleming
FRSL, FRSE




Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 20:57:53 -0700
From: "Michael Gasman"
Subject: Starters from -after- the last runnings?

I have used many techniques for creating wort for starters and my latest
technique seems too simple and cheap to be without a drawback.

I have developed an Excel spreadsheet that does calculations of the water
needed for brewing using the ideas in "Designing Great Beers".  I stop
collecting wort when the calculated volume is in the boiler - this leaves at
least a gallon of last runnings which become progressively more dilute.
This excess wort emerges from the grain which holds less liquid than all the
references predict (0.2 gal/#) and the volume under my false bottom.  I have
used the first two quarts to build starters (SG - 1.020-1.025 - I pressure
can) and have seen no evidence of yeast related problems.

Lipids, proteins and sugars would all be less than optimal - but are there
solid reasons not to do this?

Michael Gasman
Redding CA



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 08:12:39 GMT
From: huskers at voyager.net (Jason Henning)
Subject: Starter stuff...

Hello Friends,

In HBD 3097,   Matt Birchfield <peridot at usit.net> asks pressure canning
wort starters:

+ 1- What should the S.G. of the canned wort be, or does it matter in
+ relation to my second question?

I would make my starter about 1.070 and I dilute with boil water. I
would make my first step about 1.040 and build up to my expected OG.
 
+ 2- What temperature, pressure and time should be used for safe
+ canning, and how full should the jars be?

15 psi at 250 is thrown around a lot.

+ 3- How long will the canned wort last?

Properly done, forever
 
+ 4- Are there any special steps (boiling again, etc.) that should be
+ taken to use the canned wort, or just flame the jar, pour it into the
+ starter fermentation jug and pitch yeast?

The whole point of pressure canning is to kill everything. You shouldn't
need to boil again.

I see the flaming procedure mentioned quit often and wonder how
effective it is. I'd rather use StanStar (or some other sanitizer) for a
few minutes. Can the Liddel-Whiteman types confirm that flaming (the
jar, not the poster) is effective?
 
+ 5- When canning wort do you need to pressure can, or can you "steam
+ can"?  How 'bout immersion in boiling water?

Immersion boiling will not kill botulism. But then again, I haven't seen
a single data point that botulism is a threat with malted barley. I've
heard that botulism can be cultured in malt base media. But, like I
said, I haven't heard of a single example of naturally occurring
botulism in malted barley.

- -----

Here's what I do sometimes. I'll do a no-sparge or very limited sparge
mash. I get my wort and then I'll collect a couple of gallons of
run-off. I'll boil it down to a gallon. I put that wort in a milk jug
and freeze it. When I need some starter wort, I thaw it out enough to
get what I need and refreeze it. I dilute and boil the portion I need.

Jason Henning
(106,16,rt) Rennerian, soon to be (714) Rennerian

Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 13:31:53 -0400
From: Eric R Lande <landeservices at juno.com>
Subject: Primary vs. Secondary revisited

In HBD #3096  Matthew Comstock asks about ways to reduce possible
oxidation in the secondary.

If you do get a CO2 setup, you can use a closed transfer from one carboy
to another or directly to a Corney keg.  Using this same setup, you can
purge the receiving vessel with CO2 first.  There is an article in the
July/Aug 1994 Brewing Techniques by Bennett Dawson that details this
system.  I found it on the web at

http://www.brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.4/dawson.html

This should solve your dilemma.


Eric Lande
Doylestown, PA


Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 16:14:19 EDT
From: Madison Homebrewers <nghab-news at juno.com>
Subject: 13th Annual Great Taste of the Midwest!

     The Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild presents the 
             13th Annual Great Taste of the Midwest<sm>
Saturday, 14 August 1999 (always the second Saturday in August), 1-6pm
        Olin-Turville Park, John Nolen Drive, Madison, Wisconsin

Tickets for North America's second-longest-running craft beer festival
(to our knowledge second in longevity only to the GABF) are sold in
advance (none at the gate) by mail or at various locations in Madison for
only $18, which includes nearly unlimited sampling (limited by your sense
of responsibility), a beautiful commemorative silver-rimmed German
tasting glass, a comprehensive program, music, and the best time you can
ever expect to have at a beer festival!

95 of the Midwest's best craft brewers will offer a total of about 400
different beers for your sampling enjoyment.  Food of a non-fermented
nature will be available for sale by local restaurants.

Ticket ordering information can be found at
www.globaldialog.com/madbrewers or at 608.682.9973.

Tickets are usually sold out by this time, but an equally large event in
town the same week has taken its toll on local hotel space, so we expect
a higher-than-usual ratio of local : out-of-town patrons this year.  BUT
if you are coming from outside Madison, there are still ways to get to
the big event.

* BUS TRIPS.  Several groups in Wisconsin and Illinois are running bus
trips, among them the Chicago Beer Society, AB-Normal Brewers (that's
Bloomington-Normal), Sheboygan  Sin-City Suddzers, a couple of groups in
Rockford.

* SCHEDULED BUS SERVICE  VanGalder Bus line (www.vangalderbus.com) has a
Madison-O'Hare shuttle that also has stops in Rockford, South Beloit, and
Janesville.  If you live within easy driving distance of one of those
places, you can drive to their bus and let them do the driving to
Madison.  From the stop at UW Memorial Union, you can walk to Angelic
Brewing Company or Great Dane Pub and Brewery to catch a FREE shuttle bus
to the fest.  Check their website for schedules and fares, and allow a
little extra time for walking and shuttling in Madison.  If you live
farther away, you could consider one of several hotels near the VanGalder
bus depots.  Note, however, that the hotel situation in Janesville is
little better than in Madison that weekend, but the Rockford convention
bureau lists availability at a half-dozen hotels within easy walking
distance of the bus.  Not that we like to recommend that people spend
their money in Illinois ;-), but that's where there's space to get a room
so you don't miss the big event!!  See www.gorockford.com.

* For those who are patient in calling around, there are available rooms
in Madison if you look for them

 - - - - -

OTHER NOTES FOR THOSE PLANNING AHEAD!

PARKING: Parking at the festival grounds is limited and reserved for
staff and brewers (after all, there's no fest if they can't get their
beer and gear in the park!), and driving directly to and from the fest is
not advised anyway.  Parking in downtown municipal and county parking
garages is only $1 on weekends and evenings, and from there you can
either walk about 1/2 hour to the fest or walk to Angelic or Great Dane
for a free shuttle.  J.T. Whitney's Brew Pub and Eatery (Whitney Way at
Odana Road) has ample free parking and is also providing free shuttle
service.    Don't drive to the festival grounds, and don't drive drunk
after the event!

SMOKING: Smoking under the tents is PROHIBITED as a matter of fire
safety, and anyone who lights up under the tents risks being ejected from
the festival on the spot.  Smoking is also a health and comfort issue (as
well as a hindrance to the appreciation of the subtle characteristics of
many beers)  for many of the 5,000 other happy beer enthusiasts at the
festival, as well as a clean-up issue (anyone who has ever had to pick up
hundreds of butts out of the grass the next day knows this all too well. 
 Festival volunteers will provide re-entry hand-stamps for anyone who
wishes to leave the festival temporarily to smoke.

END OF FESTIVAL:  Our licence ends at 6pm.  After five hours of enjoying
great beer, you really don't need "just one more."  Please cooperate by
finishing your last sample and exiting the grounds by 6pm.

 - - - - - 

See you in Madison!

Now go have a beer,

Bob Paolino, Vice President
Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild and Great Taste of the Midwest

___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.


Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 16:49:05 -0400
From: "Stew Cady" <stewcady at msn.com>
Subject: Early hops harvest, oxygen barrier bags

Hello all,

I just finished my earliest first hops harvest and was too late for many of
the cones.  It must be due to the weather here in MA this year.  I have
established stock (5 years), with 4 stringers of Willamette (8 to 10 bines)
and 6 stringers (12 to 18 bines) of Cascade in a 3' by 12' plot.  The bines
grow up 20' of nylon twine on a 20' cantilevered trellis.  Unlike prior
years, the Willamette has been about 3 weeks ahead of the Cascade (it's
usually 3 weeks behind), thus I only salvaged 6 (wet) ounces of Willamette
and 2 (wet) pounds of Cascade.  I'll go after the rest of the Cascade next
weekend.  Has anyone else experienced, 1) an early harvest this year and 2)
my seeming switch in the growing habits of these two varieties.  I have
cross checked the cones with the pictures in the Zymurgy 1990 special issue
on hops and they are the correct varieties.

My other question has to do with the availability of oxygen barrier bags for
home use.  I just ordered the heat sealer unit from HopTech (no commercial
relationship, etc., etc.) with the material that they say is a pretty good
oxygen barrier product but not as good as the real thing.  Does anyone have
a source for something that is as good as the 'real thing' for bagging dried
hop cones?

TIA,

Stew




Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 17:07:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: Under pressure (dum-dum-dum-duh-duh-lum-dum...)


Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Matt Birchfield <peridot at usit.net> asks...

> 1- What should the S.G. of the canned wort be, or does it matter in
> relation to my second question?

I make all my pressure canned starters 1.040. Ideally, you want your
starters to be somewhere near the target gravity, and you want to work
them up to the higher gravity beers rather than just dump them directly
into, say, a 1.100 wort. (The converse it true, too, I guess...) Me? Being
basically lazy, I make all my starters 1.040. Not too far from the LG
worts, not to far from the typical HG worts. And I can always dillute or
boil up a concentrated SG-boosting syrup should I get "religion" and
decide to practice what I preach regarding starter matching ;-) 
 
> 2- What temperature, pressure and time should be used for safe
> canning, and how full should the jars be?

15 psi for about 30 to 45 minutes. Temperature is a moot point - the
pressure will drive the temperature, assuming there is a thermal input to
this particular system (using a "pressure cooker"). The higher the
pressure, the higher the temperature will get. Your elevation probably has
an effect as well, but, for the sake of your sanity, think of the canner
as a closed system and forget about it.  I could look up my Thermodynamics
book to tell you what the temperature should be, but suffice it to say it
will be over 212'F (100'C). Fill the jars as you would any other canned
item. Typically within 1 inch to 3/4 inch of the top. If you over fill, it
just makes the jars a pain in the arse to open without spilling - the
excess will breach the lid during canning, and, barring any solids getting
trapped between the sealing material and the jar, will still seal just
fine. Some will breach even when you fill only within an inch, as
evidenced by the look and smell of the canning water...

> 3- How long will the canned wort last?

Until the lids rust off of the jars, basically. I just used some I canned
in July, 1996 (guess the gravity :-). Smelled tasted, looked fine, and the
yeast gave it two thumbs up. Or two buds up. Something like that....

(The gravity was - you guessed it! - 1.040)
 
> 4- Are there any special steps (boiling again, etc.) that should be
> taken to use the canned wort, or just flame the jar, pour it into the
> starter fermentation jug and pitch yeast?

I swab the lid with vodka, then flame around it on the glass (after the
ethanol dries). The flaming burns off any bacteria-laden dust that has
collected in the area. As an added bonus, it also softens the seal on the
lid, making for a less violent pry when I take the lid off.

The ones I just used were particularly dusty since I've been doing a
to-the-concrete overhaul of the basement over the last several years, too.
Just wash the jars, keep your work area clean, and take whatever simple
precautions are avaiable to you (swab, flame), and you'll be fine.

NOTE: If you don't let the ethanol dry, the flame will not reach the
temperature of the propane or butane torch you use to ignite it (wet
flaming). Ethanol burns at a ridiculously low temperature, and the surface
it's burning on usually doesn't get all that hot. Unless it catches fire
itself. That'd be a totally different story. Kids: don;t try this at home.
 
> 5- When canning wort do you need to pressure can, or can you "steam
> can"?  How 'bout immersion in boiling water?

You can use immersion canning, but the temperatures will not get as high,
and there is more likelihood that something in the wort would survive the
process. That's the theory part. In practice, I've never canned wort with
immersion canning, but have canned many other foods this way and haven't
had a problem. Of course, the theory IS valid, and I try to not keep
immersion canned stuff around to horribly long. Pressure canners are
expensive, but they're all but indestructable if you handle them right.
They're also versatile and make a stunning pork roast and kraut for
consumption during football and hockey seasons. 

Wort broths are one of the microbiological favorites fro growing stuff, so
better safe than disappointed. Buy the canner. (OK, Mirro? Where's my
kickback? [Just kidding!])

I *think* steam canning and pressure canning are two different terms
referring to the same thing.

I normally can several 6 oz, pint and quart jars when I do my starter
canning (nice for stepping. Rather than worrying about or throwing out a
portion of a quart jar, I have the steps canned). Using the 45 pgp for
DME, I weigh out enough for the volume I'm canning, add a hop pellet (more
for the hell of it than because I believe it helps - eveyone must have a
superstition...), put in a measure of yeast nutrient (I don't recall at
this time, but scale down the amount your particular nutrient says to add
per gallon), put my pre-boiled and softenned lid on, and cap with a
finger-tight ring. Then, it's canner city. The amount of break in the
finished jar is stunning...

Additional tips:

o Like anything else in brewing, START WITH CLEAN JARS! And new jars ARE
  NOT clean jars. Wash them.
o Do not skip the boiling of the lids. This gest cardboard dust off but,
  most importantly, it prepares the sealant for adhering to your jar.
o As the finished jars cool, the lid should "boink" downward as the
  material in the jar contracts. Do not remove the band until the lid has
  boinked. And *DO* remove the bands before putting the jars up. The lids
  will be fine without them, and the mineral deposits from the canning 
  operation in the threads will make them damned tough to get off later.

Something fun to see:

After the canning, when the jars are cooling, put a cool, damp cloth on
the lid, and what as the resultant contraction of the gasses in the
headspace literally cause the wort to boil. Heh! Vacuums are cool...

 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 08:06:01 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: assumptions about the AHA

You know, members of the AHA seem pretty bent on making sure
everyone on the HBD feels that the decision to can Brian was
justified.  Unfortunately they're not providing any justification
other than to support those saying "Well, if they fired Brian it
must have been for good reason."

David, if you're not going to provide better details on the
decision-making process don't bother trying to defend your
position.  The message is clear--Brian was fired, the AHA thinks
it was (and it may have been) justified in doing so, and that
decision won't be reversed.  Fine.  Let's get back to talk on
fermenting beer, not beer politics.

Oh, thanks all for the notes on where to eat and drink in
Portland.  I have some good leads now.

Cheers!
Marc Sedam



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 08:14:17 -0500 
From: "Sieben, Richard" <SIER1 at AERIAL1.COM>
Subject: Pressure Canning wort starters

Matt Birchfield asked about procedures for pressure canning wort starters:

'1- What should the S.G. of the canned wort be'
 You can mix up a batch of DME like you usually do for priming and can it or
I now just make an extra gallon of wort when I brew and can that, whatever
the gravity may be.

"2- What temperature, pressure and time should be used for safe
canning, and how full should the jars be?"
Pressurize to 15lb for 15 minutes and let the pressure cooker cool on it's
own.  The jars should be filled to about 1 inch from the top.  If the seal
is good (top of Mason jar lid does not flex at all) you are done.

"3- How long will the canned wort last?"
I don't know, I just keep them out of light so they don't skunk.  I would
bet about the same life as beer.

"4- Are there any special steps (boiling again, etc.) that should be
taken to use the canned wort, or just flame the jar, pour it into the
starter fermentation jug and pitch yeast?"
Nothing special, just pop it open and use it.  I also use these for priming
sugar, but you have to know the gravity and calculate how much to use, I
tend to overprime like an idiot, that's why I switched to kegs.

"5- When canning wort do you need to pressure can, or can you "steam
can"?  How 'bout immersion in boiling water?"
Pressure canning is a more surefire way to prevent infection, but you can
immersion can as well.  The difference is that you will need to boil for a
longer period than pressure canning, as to how long I don't know since I
have a pressure canner ($60 to $70 for a decent sized one).  I actually have
a pot that was used for boil canning, but I never used it since I think
pressure canning is safer from bacteria point of view.

"6- What are the chances, circumstances, risks, etc., or doing it
wrong?"
Well, nothing that can kill you will grow in wort, but you might get
exploding jars and the glass may hurt you, aside from the mess.  I check my
canned wort periodically to make sure the vacuum seal is holding, if I ever
find one that didn't keep it's seal, I will dispose of it.  Hasn't happened
in two years though.

good luck

Rich Sieben
lat42deg 16min
long 88deg 12min
(northeast nowhere illinois)



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 09:55:50 -0400
From: "David Kerr" <dkerr at semc.org>
Subject: re: Charlie Bamforth goes HSA crazy!

Eric Panther quoted from the Journal of the Institute of Brewing :

>Ways to minimize HSA include:
>- mash in at the highest temperature possible (ie. no protein rest!),
to
>reduce oxygen solubility in wort and accelerate denaturing of
lipoxygenase
>- use deaerated or preboiled water for all operations (store with lid
on to
>prevent O2 pickup)
>- prefill mash/lauter/boiler with N2 or CO2 to minimize oxygen pickup
during
>mash-in and transfers
>- avoid copper or iron brewing vessels or elements (to minimize the
>formation of activated forms of oxygen)
>- use an inert gas blanket on top of mash and wort
>- ensure the clearest possible lauter runoff, to minimize wort
unsaturated
>fatty acid composition

Eric- was there any mention as to the degreee of HSA attributable to
any of
these processes?

I don't preboil water, but treat with Campden tablets to dechlorinate,
and am
not about to buy a CO2 tank for just this purpose.  Relative to the
other practices,
does preboiling all water provide the biggest benefit?  My intuition
tells me yes.

Is O2 solubility vs. temp a linear function, (is a 150F vs 156F mash
temp
statistically significant regarding O2?)

(QDA - subjective, non-scientific method derived comment follows):
Since I've begun recirculating approx. 2 gallons of wort prior to
collecting runoff
in my lautering, I've noticed a substantial improvement in the clarity
and freshness
in my beers - this seems the easiest procedure from the list to adopt.
In terms of
bang for the buck, where does a clear lauter fall in this list?

Dave Kerr - riding the Tim Wakefield rollercoaster in Needham, MA




Return to table of contents

---