---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Phloaters, AHA ("Spies, Jay")
  Water Boiling Question ("Paul Ward")
  ORANGE PEEL FOR WITBIER ("David M. Campbell")
  p-cooking (Dave Burley)
  1st runnings, 2nd runnings ("Paul Valdiviez")
  Of Insects and Arachnids (Eric.Fouch)
  Sugars, Starters, and Falsies (loretta_)
  Advice Needed - Experiment in Progress (Eric Caldwell)
  short thin lines, pressure drop/cereal mashes/not sourmash... ("Stephen Alexander")
  pCooker/hops/botulism - the sequel ("Stephen Alexander")
  Immersion cooler coil in corny primary? ("C.D. Pritchard")
  Pressure cooking answers ("Rich, Charles")
  Re:Enyymes ("Frank J. Russo")
  fermentation is great (James Jerome)
  All Round Best RIMS/HERMS etc Request ("Gribbles IT Operations")
  Your inquiry to HBD # 3073 (Brett Spivy)
  Continuous yeast feeding (Brett Spivy)
  Eric Panthers Idea Of Brewing? ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  ADELSCOTT Receip (Djhbrew)
  rejuvenating pH 'trodes ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  Backyard hops (Joel Plutchak)
  Honey; Also Wort Chillers ("Swintosky, Michael D.")
  RE:  Brian, Changes at the AHA ("Dr. Pervo")
  Re: canning wort starters (Jim Layton)
  Hop garden woes ("Charles T. Major")
  Whirlpooling ("Spies, Jay")
  science/art (John Wilkinson)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 10:25:28 -0400 
From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>
Subject: Phloaters, AHA

All -

I've been out of the HBD loop for about a month now, and imagine my surprise
when I popped my head back in just in time for the semi-annual Phil's
Phloater Advice Phlurry.  :)   Anyway, here's a gadget I came up with for
use with my phloater, reposted from a 1998 HBD to save you all the searching
hassles.  It's not unlike the "slit tubing" thing, but IMO the "BB Snake"
seals better...hope some of you find it useful.

>>>HOMEBREW Digest #2744 Fri 19 June 1998
 ...with a good number of folks talking about using 10-gallon Gotts 
and Phils Phloaters, I thought I would share a gadget hint that has 
been of tremendous value.  I have continually had problems with the 
false bottom floating up at dough-in, leaking grains under the edge 
of the bottom and clogging up the works, even when I tried to manually 
hold the bottom down with a potato masher while simultaneously stirring 
and doughing in (there's a mental picture . . .)  Compounding this 
problem is the fact that the Gott that I use has a small bump right in 
the middle of the bottom where the exit elbow sits, making it hard to 
get a flush fit.  After many exasperating sparges where I had to blow 
into the outlet tube every 5 seconds or so to clear the damn thing, I 
finally found the perfect solution.  Take exactly 35" of 3/4" ID vinyl 
tubing (this fits around the bottom diameter of the Phalse bottom and 
the cooler wall, leaving just enough room to fit in a stopper / bulkhead 
and outlet tubing.  Get 2 #3 solid stoppers.  Soak the tubing in hot 
water so it becomes pliable, and jam one of the stoppers completely 
inside the tubing.  Fill the tubing with BB's.  Stopper the other end in 
exactly the same manner.  Place this "snake" around the outside of the 
Phalse bottom before adding your strike water, and dough in as usual. 
The weight of the snake holds the Phil's bottom down, and the width 
of the tubing ensures that there is a tight seal between the cooler wall 
and the edge of the Phalse bottom.  The snake weighs about 4 pounds.  
The B-wine was the 1st batch that I used this for, and *not one* husk 
leaked through.  I also got crystal clear runoff after about 2 pints of 
recirc.  No water leaked into the tubing, so the BB's were dry, and 
didn't contaminate the mash.  Try it, it works like a champ.<<<

Also, I read with disgust the firing of Brian Rezac.  Notwithstanding the
fact that Paul Gatza may be a fine administrator and swell human being in
his own right, I think the AHA made a tremendous mistake in firing Brian.
Why?  Because he was committed to the homebrewing community.  Period.
Judging from the amount of positive responses from people who had contact
with him (that's my experience as well), I'd say that he made more inroads
toward tying together the AHA and the community that it supposedly serves
than any other AHA figure in recent memory (Charlie P certainly ain't doin'
it for me...)  The AHA may have had valid personnel reasons for wanting to
relieve Brian of his post.  However, as Paul himself said, Brian had
"tremendous interpersonal skills".  OK, then, switch him over to another
position.  Losing the progress that Brian made with the likes of the HBD,
among others, is one step forward, three back.  Brian's not the
administrative type?  Fine, let him do what he does best.  I thought that
Paul was supposed to be the "administrator."  I'm not really sure *what*
Cathy does...  It's obvious that the AHA needs more personnel to adequately
do the job of acting as advocate and representative to the homebrewing
community.  Do Paul and Cathy plan on picking up the slack left by Brian's
departure, or will they just hire and fire another figurehead?  Jethro -
duck and cover, dude.

Hey AHA -- why not suck off a little of Uncle Charlie's overinflated salary
to fund a "homebrewing community outreach" position for Brian?  Why not
recognize the time, effort and positive contributions that he made?  WHY NOT
LISTEN TO YOUR MEMBERSHIP, AHA??  Aren't they supposed to be working for us?
Enough ranting...personally, I like Scott's idea of an alternate
organization made up of homebrewing advocates, instead of the parasitic
spectacle that the AHA has become.  I'm with you.

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD


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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 10:47:48 -0400
From: "Paul Ward" <paulw at doc.state.vt.us>
Subject: Water Boiling Question

Just a quicky for the knowledgeable:

How long do you have to boil 5 - 8 gallons (US) of water to get an
acceptable drop in disolved oxygen?  I don't have the luxury of pre-boiling
the night before.

You know, I never used to worry about things like this before reading the
HBD.

Paul in Vermont
paulw at doc.state.vt.us





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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 10:58:50 -0400 
From: "David M. Campbell" <David.Campbell at po-box.esu.edu>
Subject: ORANGE PEEL FOR WITBIER





I'm confused from an earlier post about using orange peel for flavoring a
Witbier.  I thought the "zest" of an orange was essentially the peel only.
Is this not true?  Also, for those of us who don't have measuring equipment,
how many orange peels constitute an ounce? 

Thanks,

Dave
>  


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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 12:17:25 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: p-cooking

Brewsters:

Charles Rich apparently didn't like being
identified as one of the "Charlies" in my comments
on p-cooking. Sorry, no intention to offend. Only
my girlfriends and wife ever called me "Davie".

Could this be the start of something?

I do have to underline my concern for Charles'
recommendation of p-cooking mash and hops.
Just because you do something a lot of times
does not mean it is safe to do it. People jump
off cliffs with parachutes, and usually survive.
Does that make this activity safe?

There may be a way to cook hops and mash
safely, but things that foam or can plug the
pressure controller should be used cautiously
and at a distance. Not really possible with a
p-cooker under normal home conditons.

The manufacturer of my pressure cooker
( Fagor) says:

"Do not cook such foods as apple sauce,
 cranberries,* pearl barley*, *oatmeal* or
*other cereals*, split peas, noodles,
macaroni, rhubarb or spaghetti.
These foods tend to foam, froth and sputter
and may block the pressure release valve."

I interpret this to include malt and adjuncts
in the "pearl barley" or "other cereals"
classification and to note this is *not*
recommended by the manufacturer who
I assume is an expert on this subject.

Frankly, I do not see the need
to p-cook the mash or hops. If you wish to
enhance the efficiency of recovery of bittering
components, hops could perhaps be cooked
separately from the wort and be done safely,
especially using the lidded inner vessel Charles
recommends. I wonder what effect the 

high temperature has on the hops' aroma?

Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley 

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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 10:05:43 -0700
From: "Paul
Valdiviez" <brewpab at iwon.com> Subject: 1st
runnings, 2nd runnings

First time poster, long time lurker.  Hopefully someone can assist.

The next batch I brew will be a double batch: Barleywine 1st runnings, Bitter
2nd runnings.
I would like to make 5 gal of each, but this is flexible.  Although I have
possible recipes to
use, I can not find any procedures to do this.  Mostly what I am interested in
is:  1) when to
stop collection for the barleywine, and 2) whether or not to re-mash the grains
after collecting
the for the Barleywine, and If I do re-mash, at what temps and for how long.
Any ideas?

Thanks.  (private e-mails okay)

Paul V.




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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 13:32:00 -0400
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com
Subject: Of Insects and Arachnids

I feel the need to dispel the dispensation of misinformation in this forum
once again!

Joy says:

"I'm in southern Virginia and there is a moderate size wasp finds every tube
like opening to fill with mud and larvae.  I think the wasp places an insect
with it's egg.  The combination of mud, insect or youngster, etc. completely
plugs the tube.  "

NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!

The Mud Dauber wasp does fill holes with mud and eggs, but they do not I
repeat DO NOT place insects in with the egg.  They stuff the tubes with stung
spiders.  Spiders are not insects, but members of the class Archnida.
Stung spider, stung spider, egg, seal with mud.  Stung spider, stung spider,
egg, seal with mud.  Stung spider, stung spider, egg, seal with mud.  Stung
spider, stung spider, egg, seal with mud.

GET IT INTO YOUR HEADS!!

I have seen larger wasps that that use grasshoppers and katydids instead of
spiders, but they are too large to plug an orifice of this size, they don't
pack mud, and prefer digging tunnels to stuffing holes.

Now I must change myself.

Fred Garvin


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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 13:35:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: loretta_ at alloymail.com
Subject: Sugars, Starters, and Falsies

Hello HBD'rs!

>From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
>Subject: Q: adding kettle sugars at END of the boil?

Hi Darrell!
One thing to watch out for would be inadequate mixing.
I once added a few pounds of honey to the last few
minutes of the boil to get some sanitizing of
the honey while retaining aromatics.  I stirred
(gently) during cooling, but upon racking to the
fermenter, I found most of the honey in the hot/cold
break in the bottom of the pot.


>What would the result be if I were to supplement the
>smack pack with one rehydrated Munton's Gold, or a
>Coopers dry yeast?  Would it make more sense to just
>run the risk of under-pitching....or should I use
>dry yeast with the Swedish #1742 WYeast?
>Thankyou in advance for any advice you can render. ...Darrell
<terminally intermediate all-grain brewer>

Most likely the dry yeast would overwhelm the pitched
smack pack.  Pitching the smack pack without
stepping it up will give you a 20-30 hour lag time.
Some brewsters let their wort cool this long before
pitching a good sized starter, but I would recommend
against either.

HEY JOE! (where you goin' with that gun in your hand?)

>I'm building a new 10 gal mash tun based on a
>Gott water cooler.  Does anyone have any tricks
>for sealing the false bottom to the sides and
>still being able to remove it?  Thanks.Joe,

If you used a piece of rigid tubing i.e. copper,
to run down through the center of the false bottom
to the spigot on the side, the rigid tubing would
hold the false bottom down.  Or, build a slotted
drain manifold out of 1/2" CPVC like I did.
It cost about $5 for the pipe and fittings.

Loretta!


- -----------------------------------------------
Get your free email at http://www.alloymail.com


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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 12:58:07 -0600
From: Eric Caldwell <eric at aob.org>
Subject: Advice Needed - Experiment in Progress

First time posting, but this seemed like a question y'all might have
some fun with...

I'm in the process of creating a hybrid dubbel/barleywine (barleywine
grains with Trappist yeast) and it's smelling really good coming out of
secondary.  I've been considering putting a slice of orange in some of
the bottles and wondering if anyone had experience in using whole fruit
slices during bottle conditioning.  I'm trying to figure out a) what I
could expect it to do to the brew, b) what it would do to the orange,
and c) would the orange stay preserved indefinately (important question
since it's a barleywine and may be stashed for a period of many many
moons).

Thanks in advance!
Eric Caldwell



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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 15:14:33 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: short thin lines, pressure drop/cereal mashes/not sourmash...

After David's post and my own calculation, I ran out and replaced a 1/4" x
~7.5ft Foxx line with a food grade vinyl 3/16" by 6ft.  It really does
reduce foaming (same beer, same head pressure) - even through a picnic tap
(which now remains wide open  at 15psig).  Looks like size does matter.

*** Page down a bit to skip over some flow equations ...

Then Roger mistakenly thinks I have made an error ...

>but I see a problem waaaay in  the beginning:
>
>   "dP = L (in feet) * 0.56psi + 0.43 psi    [ 1/4" ID tubing, 2.5
>   fl.oz/sec ]                           (where the  0.43 psi is the
kinetic term)"
>
>   You have an equation which contains a sum of factors with different
>   units,

No Roger.  The original equations were, as usual, unitless (not
dimensionless) and I *explicitly* deleted the unit and dimension from the
'L' factor when I wrote "(in feet)". which is a convention more widely used
than writing "L/ft".

If you prefer then read the equation as  "dP = L * 0.56psi/ft + 0.43 psi"
that's fine too.  There is no error in my previous post.

>  also: "differential (dP above) is proportional to v_2."
>     don't see any squared term where does this come from?  Not saying
>    you're wrong, you just don't make a case like that!

Because of the recent tirade against the technical, and space limitations I
presented only the results not the development.  Since someone is
interested, one example tersely follows.  Tho' knowing that the pressure
drop is (almost) linear with V^2 is very useful info - probably more useful
than memorizing the derivation.

First determine if the flow is turbulent of laminar. ...
The reynold number 'RN'  =  rho*vbar*Diam / mu ,
where rho is the mass density, vbar is the mean velocity, mu is the
viscosity, and 'Diam' or 'D' is the tube diamter.  I assumed a (mu/rho)
value around
1.4 ^10^-6 meter^2/sec
which matches very cold water. The reynolds number assuming any reasonable
velocity and tube diameter is turbulent (not laminar) [RN >>2200] flow and
so the total pressure drop (smooth round tube turbulent flow assumption) is"

dP  = [ C' * (Length/Diam) + k ] * [ (rho * vbar * vbar)/2 ]

Where 'Length' or 'L' is tube (pipe) length  C' is the Prandt-Karman Law
coefficient (unitless) available from tables and approx formula (and in our
case is  0.030 +- 15%) and dependent only on the reynolds number. 'k' is a
unitless coefficient of the kinetic term which varies a bit based on the
tube entrance shape from (1.09 rounded to 1.40 squared).

Of course for a fixed flow rate F (assume we fill a glass in a fixed time)
    vbar = F / Area = F * 4 /  (pi  * Diam * Diam)
where F is flow rate.

substituting for vbar and the coefficients ...

 dP ~= [ 0.030 * L/D + 1.09] * rho * 8 * F^2 / [ pi^2 * D^4 ]
 dP ~= [ .0243*L/D + 0.883 ] * rho * F^2/D^4

Applying some units, known quantities and conversion factors we have ...

rho  ~=  1gm/cc  (the density of water or beer approx).
F       = 2.5fl.oz/sec = 74cc/sec (my guess for a decent flow rate)
F^2    = 5476 cm^6/sec^2
D       = 0.635 cm          ( for 1/4" ID tubing )
D^4    = 0.1626 cm^4
1gm/cm-sec^2 = 1 dyne/sq.cm (from definition of dyne)
1psi    = 68947 dynes/sq.cm   (a conversion factor from tables)
1ft      = 30.48cm

then ...
dP = [ 0.0243*L/(0.635cm) + 0.883] * 1 * 5476  /  0.1626  <gm /cm-s^2>
dP ~= [1289 *(L/cm) + 29755] dynes/sq.cm
dP ~= [1289 *(L/cm)(30.48cm/ft) + 29755] dynes/sq.cm  *
                        (1psi/68947 dyne/sq.cm)

dP ~= 0.57psi * L/ft + 0.431 psi

which is the previously posted result for 1/4" tubing, 2.5fl.oz/sec flow.
Anyone interested can (with a table of coefficients) derive the results for
other tubes.

==

Jeff Renner writes of 30% malt in a grit mash.  I purchased (thru Jeff, and
the auspices of the good guys in AABG) some Durst distiller's malt.  My
initial conjecture was that this extremely diastatic malt might impart a
green or off flavor.  It does not. After using some in an ale, it appears to
have a relatively soft and neutral flavor profile.  What I did find out was
that 11% distillers malt and 89% raw wheat not only is sufficient for a good
cereal mash, but achieved a negative iodine test at <60 min  at  65C and a bump
to 72C !!  [ realize that additional starch was released by the time I
boiled the raw wheat]  Durst distiller's malt is an excellent choice for
cereal mashes and certainly the malt I will use in my next corn grit
pre-mash - at perhaps 10-15%.
==

As long as everyone is breaking out those dictionaries - note the difference
between a (bacterial) acid rest and a sourmash.

 -S





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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 17:00:40 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: pCooker/hops/botulism - the sequel

I agree that clogging a canner or pCooker is a safety issue, but
underfilling a 22qt canner to 3.5 gallons has never in my experience clogged
even the pinhole release, much less interfered with the other two ~1/4"
safety releases.  Use your own judgement, *BUT* be aware that a
sealed/clogged heated pressure vessel is essentially a bomb, and metal
shrapnel is unfriendly to lifeforms.  Charlies internal 3gal pot makes good
sense.

I (as usual) agree with most of what Charlie Rich writes but on the hops
issue - Charlie suggests:
>Use less a tenth of the boiling hops you'd expect and you may still overdo
it,
The bittering level cannot hit 10X - that is impossible.  A normal 60 minute
boil extracts and isomerizes about 25% to 35% of the bittering agents.  My
experience indicate that the bittering is very roughly 2X during an
extensive (40') pCook.

I do not generally use pCooking as a super efficient means of bittering beer
(tho' it can be).  Instead I add a small amount of the bittering hops to the
pCooker/canner in order to decrease potential foaming and to improve break.
===
Someone asked about canning starter wort.  20' can at 15psi will do it.  Try
to hit starter SG values in the wort (1.030 to 1.040) otherwise you will
have to dilute the wort and sanitation issues arise...
===
I have to disagree with Joy Henson a bit.  The CDC website notes that
honey/clostridium  is a specific threat to infants.  Infant digestive tracts
are insufficiently acid to prevent clostridium growth and that is the source
of the problem.  Adults can and do eat spores without incident.  CDC papers
from 1989 show 98 deaths in 23 reporting (US) states that year from
botulism. 75 were infants.  "To help prevent infant botulism, infants less
than 12 months old should not be fed honey." - so says the CDC.

 -S




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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 17:13:19
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: Immersion cooler coil in corny primary?

After trying an ice/fan box (like Ken's) and cooled water baths as
fermenting chambers, I'm building something less bulky and hopefully more
efficient: a long, small diameter copper immersion cooling coil inside an
insulated corny keg primary fermenter.  Cooling water will be pumped from a
ice water bath through the cooling coil.  Temp. control will be by cycling
the pump on and off or by varying the pump speed.  

Has anyone been done this before or have any thoughts on the approach?   
TIA!


c.d. pritchard cdp at chattanooga.net 
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/  



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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 15:38:40 -0700 
From: "Rich, Charles" <CRich at filenet.com>
Subject: Pressure cooking answers

In HBD #3098 Scott Moore asked about pressure cooking wort:

>Is it advisable to put the wort directly in the cooker or are there better
>methods to avoid scorching?

I have done it that way a few times but don't recommend it, mostly just to
keep my cooker clean.  I now always use a lidded inner vessel, described a
few days ago, and recommend it.  As far as scorching goes with a directly
filled p-cooker, once up to pressure you'll use a pretty small flame to
maintain temp.  Less than a simmering flame, so there's not much occasion
for scorching.

If there were a problem with foamover (I've never seen it) the lid would
help to spoil it and direct the foam to the sides and to the waterbath
underneath instead of to the guage and vent above.  

Foaming can only occur with cavitation (boiling) which doesn't happen in a
closed system like the p-cooker.  The vapor pressure is the same as the
pressure inside.  If your p-cooker has a jiggler relief valve then possibly
you'd have some while it jiggles and equilibrates,  but that should only be
brief and not a big pressure differential.  However, you *would* get a
riotous boil and foamover if you removed the jiggler prematurely; before
your cooker cooled to normal boiling temps or atmospheric pressure.   This
is a very important part of learning how to use your p-cooker safely.

>Is there an advantage to separating the hot break when I put it back in the
>kettle or should I just dump in everything?

Just leave the hotbreak behind.  But more importantly I wouldn't just "dump
everything in".  That's a lot of hot liquid to handle and could be
disasterous if spilled.  Try ladling it gently with a pan until it's a
manageable sized volume.  If you have a pump, I simply put my takeup into
the p-cooked wort and transfer it that way.  Much safer and airless to boot!

>Pressure cooking the wort may turn out to be the best advice I've ever
>gotten and the idea was born here on the HBD.  My thanks to both Charlies
>and others for their inspired thought.

Thanks!  I got the idea from Charlie Scandrett in the old HBD's and I
believe he referenced Alfa Laval, the European megabrewery fabricators for
some of his information.

PS: I noticed a typo when I talked about pressure hopping in my last post: 
>... I don't recommend it because the effect is *so* extreme. Use less a
tenth of the boiling hops you'd expect and you may still overdo it, even
when added back to the main collection.
>
That should have been, "use less than a tenth of the boiling hops ..."


Cheers,
Charles Rich (Bothell, Washington)


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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 18:43:55 -0400
From: "Frank J. Russo" <FJRusso at coastalnet.com>
Subject: Re:Enyymes

I want to take just a minute to thank Steve Alexander for his dissertation
on enzymes.  It is one of those writings I plan to keep and past on to my
brew club.  Informative and not boring.

Good Job Steve, and thanks

Frank Russo
Havelock, NC



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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 21:17:21 +0000
From: James Jerome <jkjerome at bellsouth.net>
Subject: fermentation is great

Hi All,

I have a 5 gallon batch of Scottish Ale bubbling along nicely.  Does
anyone remember the joy felt and the grin experienced when that
fermentation lock is steadily bloop-bloop-blooping away?  Hopefully, the
joy will still be there when is properly conditioned and sampled. Must
have patience....must have patience....(repeat mantra hourly, daily...)

As to AHA and Zymurgy...
Yeah, I renewed my initial membership (read subscrcription) to AHA last
week, and I also succumbed to the offer from BYO.  I'm starting out and
I want all the info I can get.  At the very least I know the grain of
salt I have to apply, but I haven't been around long enough to wade
through the politics and back issues of HBD and make a comittment to one
side or the other. Charlie P.s book got my attention, and it made the
whole process seem less intimidating.  Now, I am homebrewing...I have
FOUND my hobby---soon to be obsession.  Thus CP can't be the devil. 
However I have expanded my base of resources and have found that there
is a great deal more out there than TNCJHB.  I think I'll wait a year or
so before pronouncing my opinion on the AHA, Brian's firing and related
threads.

Thankx to Jeff Renner as to the John Smith's Extra Smooth Bitter
information, and the whereabouts of the Real Ale Almanac (my local
bookseller has it on order for me).

Concerning Grits;
I asked and I received.  All I wanted to know and more.  Thanks to all
who replied in the forum and privately.  Stanford's database and the
Cat's Meow hate my system, but I'm learning how to get around the
problems.  

The nice brew-related meatiness of HBD #3098 and #3099 were well
appreciated.  I've saved them to disk for future reference.  One day
I'll need the info.  I thank the originators and contributors to HBD for
the forum.  Now I KNOW where to go with a question.

Lastly, as a new resident of the Chattanooga area, I must recommend The
Big River Restaurant and Brewery in downtown Chattanooga to any and all
who travel this way.  Great service, and a really excellent brown ale
named 'Sweet Magnolia Brown Ale' (GABF gold medal winner).  They also
have a menu item called a "drunken ribeye" which is a steak marinated in
their house Ironhouse Stout---absolutely out of this world good.   

Enough babbling for now, gotta go stare at my
fermenter--bloop-bloop-bloop.


Fermenting and happy,

Jett Jerome
Ooltewah, TN


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Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 14:29:37 +1000
From: "Gribbles IT Operations" <mellis at gribbles.com.au>
Subject: All Round Best RIMS/HERMS etc Request

G'day Gang,

Although I have scoured this group for 4 years and chased info all over the
place , I still cannot make up my mind on building the best all round
RIMS/HERMS system at home. One does this, another does that. Could someone
point me towards plans, or people who have built one with really good
functionality and is user friendly. I know, I know,  how deep is half a hole
etc, but I think you might know what I am getting at. Appreciate all
opinions.

Regards

Mark Ellis

Computer Services Assistant
Gribbles Pathology (I.T)
14 Yarra Street. South Yarra. VIC. Australia. 3141



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Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 14:39:43 -0500
From: Brett Spivy <baspivy at softdisk.com>
Subject: Your inquiry to HBD # 3073

Dr. Brown (I'll simply have to assume that you are in fact a doctor and
this was not some maniacal
attempt to misguide innocent HBD posters as to your decorating and or
color coordination abilities),

    I was reading through some long-ago filed, but never actually read
forums and providentially came
across your plea for help in attaining 'that nutty character" in a nut
brown ale.  I could find no
responses in a quick search of the archives.  Did you receive any? Were
they worth the electrons it
took to display them on you monitor?  If so, I would appreciate any help
you can give me as this will
be my next brew and the best recipie I could extrapalate from several I
read looks NOTHING like
what you posted on the 3rd of July.
    I am Cc: posting this letter to the HBD in the hopes that in
addition to your reply I might solicit any
and all other opinions, data points, scientific dissertations on beer
nuts, and maybe even a recipie or
two.
    What follows is a copy of Dr Brown's (if that is his/her name and
title) original post:



In a valiant effort to evince the nuances of what constitutes a "nutty"
flavor in beer, I beseech those who have gone before me to elucidate on
the
aforementioned conundrum that I face. I've tried Caramunich II, Honey
(malt), Special Roast, Toasted, and Victory malt as well as all the
permutations of the above to no avail. Good Brown Ales were made, but
sadly
lacking in the "nutty" character I'm seeking. I tasted a wonderful Nut
Brown
Ale (of the Northern English variety) during the Spring Beer Festival
(http://www.springbeerfest.com/) made by a gentleman named Greg (don't
recall his last name) from Montana (or was it Wyoming?) and it was the
grail. Well, maybe a grail shaped beacon ;^) At any rate, he was tight
lipped about grain/hop bill and yeast, but said I was "...on the right
track...", whatever that means. Any ideas, suggestions, opinions? Below
is
my most recent recipe (206th attempt) so far, and there's still another
514
permutations left!


O.G 1.052
T.G. 1.013
Alc % 5.0
I.B.U. 24.7
S.R.M. 62.8
Ingredients for 5 gallon test batch:
      5 lbs Pale Ale Malt
      4 lbs Brown English Malt
      4 oz Caramunich II Malt
      4 oz Honey Malt
      4 oz Special Roast
      4 oz Victory Malt
      0.5 oz Bullion 9.4% Boiled for 90 minutes
      1 oz Kent-Goldings 5% Finishing hops  at  end of boil
      1 tsp Calcium Chloride
      1 tsp Irish Moss
      16 oz Danstar Nottingham Dry yeast slurry
    Boil Time: 90 minutes
    Mashing Procedure:
      Mash Efficiency 75% with my system
      Add  3.125  gallons  of water at 168 F to heat mash to 150 F
      Sparge with 4.25 gallons of water to yield 5.00 gallons to primary

       Ferment  at  65'F for 3 days, transfer to carboy for one week, then
condition for  another 2~3 weeks. Share, and enjoy!

                Dr. Michel J. Brown, D.C. {Portland, OR}

Thanx . . .
Brett A. Spivy
Shreveport, LA
Brewer (newbie), baker, never made a candlestick though I've often
photographed them . . .



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Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 15:31:02 -0500
From: Brett Spivy <baspivy at softdisk.com>
Subject: Continuous yeast feeding

Bob P. posts, in part, in HBD #3098:
    I would think that maintaining a sterile, infection free supply of
wort would
be the greatest challenge:  Is there a vessel which could be sterilized
(along
with the wort) in a pressure cooker, from which the wort could later be
dispensed?
 Now this is a post that interests me, and frankly except for CAP posts,
CACA posts, and a vast number of new brewer questions, not much else
does.
    Couldn't you just use a sterile 1l IV drip bag?  You could boil the
wort, take an SG reading, can at that point sanitized (if not truly
sterile).  Then when you wanted to step-up a stater over a 20 hour
period, alcohol swab the outside of the canning jar lid, open a sterile
IV drip set, pouo into the once-sealable pouch, set the drip for its
tightest setting, run the abreviated (maybe 2') drip tube past a groove
in the side of a #6 drilled stopper with airlock, on top of an ongoing
yeast starter in an erlemyer (sp?!?)?
    I'm not sure why you would want to do this, but it certainly seems
doable.

Brett A. Spivy



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Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 19:07:56 +1000
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Eric Panthers Idea Of Brewing?

     I seem all too often to be making unpopular comments and just when I
was in the process of formulating a "science versus tradition" post and
thinking maybe I could make it a friendly sort of discussion, on to the
scene bursts Mr Panther with an unbelievable array of suggestions for us to
consider on brew day.
     Eric, I don't know from what height you dropped in from but you have
got to be kidding! In case someone missed it, here is a bit of what Eric
suggests

> Ways to minimize HSA include:
>  - mash in at the highest temperature possible (ie. no protein rest!), to
> reduce oxygen solubility in wort and accelerate denaturing of lipoxygenase
>  - use deaerated or preboiled water for all operations (store with lid on
to
> prevent O2 pickup)
>  - prefill mash/lauter/boiler with N2 or CO2 to minimize oxygen pickup
during
> mash-in and transfers
>  - avoid copper or iron brewing vessels or elements (to minimize the
> formation of activated forms of oxygen)
>  - use an inert gas blanket on top of mash and wort
>  - ensure the clearest possible lauter runoff, to minimize wort
unsaturated
> fatty acid composition
>
> I would say that unless a homebrewer followed these procedures, one could
no
> t really claim to have climbed the Everest of the art.
>
> Any Sir Edmunds out there, or just a bunch of weekend bushwalkers?
>
> Eric Panther.


Well Eric, I am proud to be a bushwalker!! You are nothing short of a
maniac! You probably are not aware that at least one of our posters has lost
more than his share of sleep over HSA and you have to come up with a post
like this! Are you seriously going to tell us the above ideas and God knows
what else you have read is actually incorporated into your brew day?

Phil Yates
(nearly a "science versus tradition" poster but this one has flattened me)!



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Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:07:08 EDT
From: Djhbrew at aol.com
Subject: ADELSCOTT Receip

My wife and I where in France (you know were the coneheads are from) and we 
both enjoyed a beer called ADELSCOTT. It is amber colored with low hop 
bitterness, low hop aroma, smoky malt sweetness with medium body. Overall a 
pleasant brew. 

I'm looking for recipe, information or input on recipe formulation. Here is 
the information from the label:
ADELSCOTT
Beer with peat smoked whisky malt
Brewed by Fischer & Adrlhoffen
BP48 67300 Schitigheim
Cedex-France EMB 67447

Ingredients: Water, Malt, Maize, Whisky malt, Hops, Caramel, Sugar, Aromatic 
compounds and Ascorbic acid. 15.8 degree Plato, 6.6%V.

By this list you can see why I have some questions, aromatic compounds, and 
caramel?

Any and all responses would be appreciated. Privet e-mail or posted.

Darryl Hickey (djhbrew at aol.com)
Miami Area Society of Homebrewers.
Brewing in the tropics at ten feet above sea level with bar stool correction!




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Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:12:04 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: rejuvenating pH 'trodes

AJ mentions >>but better still are special
pH electrode cleaners incorporating proteolytic enzymes. All World
Scientific in Lynwood, WA sells such a product for brewers.<<
  

  Nearer at hand (and cheaper too probably) is Adolph's meat tenderizer
available in your local grocery store. I don't remember where I saw it
recommended (BT article on pH I think) but a soak in papain and
a distilled water rinse should clear off protein build up and be less
damaging to the electrode than a NaOH soak. 

 For you anglers, meat tenderizer is also effective for the occasional
stingray or catfish "sting", breaking down the proteins that are
causing the painfull reaction.
 


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Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:31:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Backyard hops

In HBD #3100, kevin F schramer <humulus at megsinet.net> in IL writes:
>I just harvested 9 oz chinook hops off my backyard vine....
>anyone else have an early season like this? I usually don't
>harvest for over a month.  

 ...and Stew Cady <stewcady at msn.com> in MA asks:
>as anyone else experienced, 1) an early harvest this year...

   Down here in East-central Illinois, my 3rd-year hops also
shot up fast.  I have a fair amount of Cascades that need to
be harvested, while the Chinook are only a week or two behind.
   The weird thing is that while talking to MI brewers/growers
at the Michigan Brewers Festival a week or so ago, they said
they were just now getting little hop-baby burs.  Southern
Michigan weather isn't *that* much different from northern/central
Illinois, is it?
   Oh, and after all the talk about japanese beetles, which I
smugly ignored since I didn't have a problem with them, I
looked up one of those on-line images and found out that the
nifty-looking bugs on my rose bushes are... japanese beetles.
I hope they like the roses better and stay the ! at #$%^& away
from the hops.  ;-)
- --
Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>

Sticky-fingered (from hop harvesting, Fred & Eric) in east-central IL



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Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:36:44 -0400 
From: "Swintosky, Michael D." <Swintosk at timken.com>
Subject: Honey; Also Wort Chillers

Tommy and Joy wrote excellent responses to my post regarding honey and
infant botulism.  Rereading the post, I was definitely recklessness with
what I presented.  I should have included something along the lines that I
was not trying to debunk the guidelines to not feed honey to infants less
than 1 year old.  I generally try to err on the side of safety in everything
I do, but I clearly failed in this case.  Thanks for bringing this to my
attention.

Wort Chillers
I've read quite a few posts about wort chillers but I don't recall seeing
how one cleans the ID of newly purchased tubing to be sure there are no oils
or other contamination left from the manufacturing process.  Could someone
elaborate on this?

Mike Swintosky
A much more humble beekeeper


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Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 06:47:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Dr. Pervo" <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE:  Brian, Changes at the AHA


Ed, 

I do value your words and your opinion as I do Gumps... But why
should any of us believe that the AHA is "Changing"? That excuse or
phrase has been used for a long time and nothing has ever changed. 

Why should this time be different?

I am asking an honest question. 

 -Scott Abene
===
ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT
Scott Abene <skotrat at mediaone.net>
http://skotrat.dynip.com/skotrat (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page)

"The More I know about beer politics, The more I wish I made 120k"
_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com



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Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 08:51:07 -0500
From: Jim Layton <a0456830 at rtxmail1.rsc.raytheon.com>
Subject: Re: canning wort starters

Thought I'd add just a bit to the excellent responses Matt Birchfield
received on his questions about canning wort. If you purchase a new
pressure canner it should come with decent instructions. If your canner
has no instructions, I suggest buying a canning book from either Kerr or
Ball (two big names in the US home canning market). Look for a plug for
their home canning book on a package of their jars or lids and send for
the book. These books are pretty cheap and contain easy, illustrated
instructions for the jars, lids, and canner that make the whole
procedure about as foolproof as can be. You can avoid the aggravation of
failed seals and broken jars. They also have lots of recipes for
homemade pickles and stuff, of course.

Jim Layton
Howe, TX


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Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:22:58 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: "Charles T. Major" <ctmajor at samford.edu>
Subject: Hop garden woes

My first-year hops (1 Bullion and 1 Nugget) aren't doing so 
well as the harvest approaches.  They started out well 
enough but have been doing poorly lately, especially the 
Bullion. 

The leaves are yellowing from the  bottom up and developing 
some necrosis.  I found a web page with pictures of hops 
suffering from deficiencies of the three major nutrients, 
and my hops seem to be suffering from a potassium 
deficiency.  I've used fish emulsion thus far as a 
fertilizer, and I'd like to continue with organic 
fertilizers, if possible.  Can anyone suggest a good 
organic source of potassium?

Additionally, I have a scale infestation.  Keeping in mind 
my desire to garden as organically as possible, does anyone 
have suggestions for combatting scale?

Tidmarsh Major
Birmingham, Alabama



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Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:28:39 -0400 
From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>
Subject: Whirlpooling

All -

AJ deLange's comments about whirlpooling got me thinking.  I'm currently in
the process of designing a homebuilt heat-exchange recirculating mash brew
system, and was going to incorporate a whirlpooling feature in the brew
kettle.  I'd like some feedback from the HBD collective on whether or not
you all think it might work...

Here's how it would go.  The brew kettle would have a 1/2" ball valve
mounted in the lower side for a drain, with no internal piping (i.e.: just a
hole on the inside).  The outflow of cool wort will have the ability to be
directed past a pump, and then up to the side of the kettle about 2/3 of the
way up, where it will go through the keg wall and make a 90 degree right
turn.  With the pump on full throttle, the outflow through this elbow, I am
hoping, will produce a whirlpool motion of the cooled wort (the constant
*gentle* recirculation of the hot wort can also help speed cooling with the
immersion chiller).  Once a vigorous whirlpool of the cool wort has been
established, the pump will be turned off and the trub allowed to settle in
the middle like the big boys.  Does this sound reasonable, or would the
suction out of the bottom side drain prevent a true whirlpool from ever
forming?  Would a bottom *center* drain (via an elbow in from the side
drain) be more efficient in producing a whirlpool?

Any thoughts would be appreciated, as I only want to design and build this
puppy once...

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD


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Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:56:52 -0500
From: John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: science/art

I don't like to get involved in internecine squabbles but I am moved to make
a few comments about the science/no science debate.  Pat Babcock probably
said it better than I can but I do want to add my thoughts.

First, I think there is a lot of misunderstanding between the opponents in
the argument.  This seems to be quite common in e-mail discussions.  A lot
seems to be lost in transmission.  For one thing, I don't think most of the
people alluded to as anti-science really are.  To me what Dr. Pivo and others
have been saying is that what we are doing is not science.  Certainly there
are scientific explanations of the processes but at a homebrew scale the
practice is far from scientific.  I enjoy reading explanations by A. J.,
Steve, and others of the science behind the effects we see but trying to define
the process to a degree of accuracy not found in our data seems foolish.  By
that I mean, as homebrewers there are so many uncontrolled variables that many
effects are, as Jack Schmidling would put it, "lost in the noise".  Maybe I
shouldn't assume everyone's brewing is variable as mine but I suspect most of
it is.  As Pat pointed out in the hose length debate, "In the pure sense,
you're both dead on, but attacking a practical notion merely for the sake of
scientific accuracy is not, in my opinion, value added."  It can be interesting
to know what the processes are and it is good to hear from experts in various
fields who can explain the reactions.  Practical brewing is often quite a
different matter, however.  For instance, I read and believed all the horror
stories about HSA.  However, on occasions when I have inadvertently grossly
aerated hot wort I have not detected any bad effects in the product.  I didn't
do a double blind triangle test of brews which were exact duplicates except
for the aeration, that being all but impossible, but if there were bad effects
they were undectable by me.  Therefore, I try to avoid splashing but, in my
case, it is nothing to lose sleep over.  I present this only as an example of
the sort of thing I think homebrewers face.  If the effects are undetectable or
lost in the "noise" brought on by our variability of process then they are
probably not worth worrying about.  That doesn't mean they aren't there but
may be relatively unimportant in our cases.  In the meantime, keep the
scientific explanations coming.  They are interesting and make it easier to
know what may be important and what is not.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas


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---