---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: re:Otter Creek Copper Ale (darrell.leavitt)
  Scotch Ale / The BOB in Grand Rapids, MI (Nathan Kanous)
  Commercial Brewing the De Piro way (David Lamotte)
  whiskey malt (Jeff Renner)
  Baking bread with brewing yeast (Jeff Renner)
  To Pump or not to Pump (Kirk.Fleming)
  septic tanks ("Eric Panther")
  re:Imperial Stout Recipe (Charley Burns)
  Re:Innovations (Matthew Comstock)
  pump question ("Bayer, Mark A")
  Honk! Some answers ("Rich, Charles")
  25 years of homebrewing ("Maribeth Raines, Ph.D.")
  B-Brite in dishwasher (James Jerome)
  Dry Yeast (Brad & Lorena Kuhns)


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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 08:17:41 -0500 (EST)
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Re: re:Otter Creek Copper Ale

Ok, here is a recipe that turned out real good, trying to be a clone of
Otter Creek's Copper Ale:

6.5 lb Munich Malt
4.5 lb Halcyon 2 row
1/2 cup Special B

used 3 gal H20 into mash tun,
strike temp was about 158
did beta rest at 148 for 60 min
did alpha rest at 156 for 35 min
mash-out 168 for 5 min

first runnings were 1.099 SG

used Wyeast 1007xl gERMAN aLT

Hops:
1 oz Fuggles  at  start (4.5%)
1/2 oz Hal. Northern  at  30
1oz Saaz (4.2%) at finish

The original gravity was 1.068
FG was 1.016
%ABW was about 5.3%

When I put this into the secondary, I boiled a small amt of water , into which
I put a tsp of rice syrup solids (ran out of corn sugar) to purge the head
space of oxygen...then when I "pigged" the brew I used 1/2 cup of ricy syrup
solids...wasn't sure how this would carbonate the pig, but it did well..

For what its worth this was a real hit, and several folks who had tried Otter
Creek's Alt (Copper Ale) thought that it was the same/ very similar ...made
my day,..so I hope to try this one again.

 ..Darrell
<Terminally INtermediate Home-Brewer>


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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 07:31:38 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Scotch Ale / The BOB in Grand Rapids, MI

Greetings All,
Ted McIrvine posted a recipe for an Imperial Stout and Thomas Murray asked
about "Nessie Original Red Ale" which seems to be brewed with some whisky
malt.  I can't help either of them, but it got me to thinking.  Last year
at the Great Taste of the Midwest (shameless plug for a great beer tasting
event), The BOB from Grand Rapids MI had a smoked scotch ale on tap.
Apparently, they added a fifth (or todays equivalent of such) of scotch
whisky to a barrel of their scotch ale and I thought it was wonderful.
Since then, it's been in the back of my mind to brew something similar.
I've got some scotch whisky (please, no flames about "wasting" good scotch)
and I wonder who might have a respectable recipe for a scotch (or is it
scottish?) ale that would work well with a nice dose of scotch whisky at
bottling / kegging?  Any takers with a recipe?  TIA.
nathan in madison, wi




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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:47:42 +1000
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Commercial Brewing the De Piro way

It was good to hear from George De Piro again in HDB #3106.

But he will live to regret it as I am always interested to hear from
someone who has 'been to the other side' by moving from home to commercial
brewing.

I would like to know a little more about the fermentation and maturation
schedules used by commercial brewers.  George ( I think) post some time ago
about a number of different combinations of warm and cold temperatures to
replace the traditional long/cold lagering process.  I have now read in
Kunze some additional information, but it seems that all of the different
combinations take about 21 days from pitch to pack, and give similar
results.

What do you guys use out there in the real world ?

While I do not really have to worry about the heavy capital costs for
maturation tanks, it does mean that if I can produce a lager in 21 days
rather than 42, I only tie up half the amount of cornies in my scarce
fridge space.

AJ has done a fantastic job of explaining how home brewers may benefit from
the sensible application of commercial practises at home.  Perhaps this is
another area where the big guys can help those of us at home.

Best wishes to all those on the other side....

David Lamotte
Brewing down under in Newcastle N.S.W. Australia


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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:29:47 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: whiskey malt

ThomasM923 at aol.com asks
>does anyone know of a
>supplier of the Hugh Baird lightly smoked peat malt mentioned by Ted McIrvine
>in HBD #3103?

G.W. Kent distributes lightly and heavily peat smoked malt.  They also
carry German distillers malt, which is a non-smoked high diastatic (~320
Lintner) malt.  Your shop should be to order it.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:26:51 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Baking bread with brewing yeast

Dennis Himmeroeder <dennish at palmnet.net> wonders

>if anyone has ever used brewing yeast to bake bread with.

I have, and wrote an article for Zymurgy a couple of years ago.  I think it
was in the infamous bottle opener issue.

Ale yeast is what bakers used for centuries in brewing parts of Europe when
they didn't want to use a sourdough culture, and is the progenitor of
baker's yeast.  It doesn't make for very fast leavening, but the flavors
can be nice.  I'd suggest using at least 1-1/2 Tbs of solid sedimented
yeast from your fermenter per pound of flour to start with, and giving it
lots of time to rise.  Then you can adjust the amount for future batches.
Start early in the day so you have lots of time.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:16:56 -0500
From: Kirk.Fleming at born.com
Subject: To Pump or not to Pump

The most frequently used pumps are food grade impeller-type pumps.  These
are basically a floating paddlewheel held inside a sealed plastic chamber
and driven magnetically.  The most frequently used means of regulating them
(that I've seen) is through the use of yer basic ball shut-off valve (the
kind used in residential plumbing for water supply).

What I've READ (and I can't cite the source) is that these pumps have a
shear effect of the beer, and in particular proteins, and change the
character of the beer for the worse.  If true, this would especially be the
case when the outlet flow rate from the pump is reduced through the use of a
shut off valve.  In this case, the impeller is turning at its full speed,
basically churning the wort even more than it would if the flow rate were
unrestricted.

Again, I'm only repeating what I've read elsewhere, which of course doesn't
make it so; it seems intuitively plausible, tho.  Blood is another liquid
that is apparently designed specifically to change properties under shear.

All that said, my next RIMS system will be based on either diaphragm or
peristaltic pumps, rather than the impeller type.  All the benefits that
peristaltic pumps have for pumping blood, pharmaceuticals, etc., should
apply somewhat to wort as well (sanitizability & no shear).  This might be
considered absurd overkill, but that's exactly why it's so appropriate to
bring up in this forum.

Kirk Fleming
FRSL, FRSE


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Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 00:43:14 +1000
From: "Eric Panther" <epanther at somelab.com>
Subject: septic tanks

With all these "septic tank" posts this forum is becoming more of a
microcosm and less internationally oriented.

Eric Panther.



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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 08:00:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: cburns at jps.net (Charley Burns)
Subject: re:Imperial Stout Recipe

I brewed 40 gallons of this a year and a half ago (seach hbd archives for
"Two Tub"). I scaled it down to 5 gallons and brewed it again about 5 weeks
ago. Here's the 5 gallon version which is just excellent (IMNSHO).

King of the Valley Imperial Stout (SUDS Format)

   Category         :  Imperial Stout           
   Method           :  Full Mash
   Starting Gravity :  1.102 (actual)
   Ending Gravity   :  1.037 (actual)
   Recipe Makes     :  5.5 gallons
   Total Grain      : 28.50 lbs.
   Color (srm)      :466.5 (fairly dark...)
   IBUs             : ~87

Malts:
  1.25 lb. Chocolate (briess)
  2.50 lb. Crystal  60L (used hugh baird)
 21.50 lb. Pale Ale (used briess)              
  2.75 lb. Roast (Stout) Barley (briess)     
  0.50 lb. Malted Wheat                    

Hops (all whole):
 2.50 oz. Centennial      10.0% 60 min
 2.50 oz. Kent-Goldings    5.9% 10 min

Grain/Water Ratio: 1.0 quarts/pound
Mash Temperature: 158F for 60 minutes


Wyeast 1968 (leave it sweet)

Second runnings made porter, still settling in secondary (need keg space).



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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:26:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:Innovations

Greetings

First, thanks to Ken Schwartz for posting information about no-sparge
and batch-sparge techniques in #3105.  It was this information on Ken's
website (http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer) that finally got me to try
all-grain brewing.

********************
TIPS and INNOVATIONS
********************
I defer any further discussions about 'Innovations' to those that have
compiled them before.  What was I thinking.  A few:

http://brewery.org/brewery/Library.html
http://www.bodensatz.com from Alan McKay
http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer from Ken Schwartz
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/ From Al Korzonas

And for the heck of it, and since I already typed them out.  Here's a
few nuggets.

Mashing
- -------
1.  Mashing in a bottling bucket with a CPVC drain manifold.
2.  Adding DME to sparge water to lower pH.
3.  Mashing in a grain-bag in a kettle in the oven.

Wort chilling
- -------------
1.  Recirculating cold ice water with a pump through the immersion
chiller.
2.  Without a pump, filling a bottling bucket up with ice water, siphon
it through the chiller into a bucket and dump it back in the top.

Yeast/starters
- --------------
1.  Repitching as the 'best' starter method, like Frederick J. Wills
(Frederick_Wills at compuserve.com)in #2788 (I like that post)
2.  Using a microwave to boil wort in a mason jar for starter.

Brewing
- -------
1.  Rocks in the kettle to avoid boil-overs.
2.  Splitting the brew session into two days.  Mashing one day, and
boiling the next.

Primary Fermentation
- --------------------
1.  From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald), #3103, 
Subject: RE: Immersion cooler coil in corny primary?
"I have used a submersible aquarium pump ($25) to
circulate ice water in a small plastic cooler through vinyl tubing into
a larger plastic cooler with the fermenter and water therein.
I used a siphon hose for the return water to the small cooler.

Secondary
- ---------
1.  When transferring to a secondary add solution of boiled/cooled corn
sugar to help purge headspace of air with small ferment.

Bottling
- --------
1.  Store bottles with bleach solution in them and sealed with foil to
save time preparing for bottling.

OK, those are examples of some cool ideas I read here.  Sorry, I didn't
include links to all pertinent items, or give credit where credit is
due.  And some of these are items I posted or regurgitated.  If you've
got a website that isn't included in the links above (or on links
within those sites) and you've got some cool ideas, post the address
for the rest of us.

I'll stop talking about 'Innovations' now.  It has all been done
before, of course.  

Thanks

Matt Comstock in Cincinnati












_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com



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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:49:16 -0700
From: "Bayer, Mark A" <Mark.Bayer at JSF.Boeing.com>
Subject: pump question

collective homebrew conscience_

scott church asked about using a pump, and any ill effects regarding
compaction of the mash bed due to suction created by the pump.

one alternative to this is to use a grant, which is a separate vessel that
the mash liquor is allowed to drain into via gravity.  the mash liquor is
then pumped from the grant, so no suction is applied to the bottom of the
lauter tun.

in fact, if the grant is made from metal, and heatable, you can supply heat
to the runnings to maintain a reasonable temperature in the lauter tun
during recirculation.  the intrepid could extrapolate this setup into a
rims, with suitable automation of the pump and/or flame control.

brew hard,

mark bayer
stl mo


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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:00:10 -0700
From: "Rich, Charles" <CRich at filenet.com>
Subject: Honk! Some answers

Brewster Burley asks:
>Are you trying to say that you did not recommend p-cooking hops when >you
declared that you got ...[4X]... the bitterness by p-cooking them?

Here's what I wrote:
>"....  I don't recommend it because the effect is *so* extreme."

Now, how did you miss that??  Search the archives for "pressure AND
hopping", I've never recommended it because the results are squirrelly and
someone could overhop their beer.  But I think I will recommend it now.

I *do* think it could be a pretty neat hack, just needing refinement. It may
want a "massively hop-headed individual" (MHHI) to test those waters though.
Any takers, Please tell us all what you find.

>Is it possible that this exceptional bitterness you are experiencing is
from the >tannin in the malt husk ... [or hops]?

You might not know but tannins are astringent, hops are bitter.  Big
difference taste-wise.  If tannins were extracted under pressure they'd show
in p-cooked mash, but they don't. They don't show in p-cooked hoppage
either.  In fact hop flavor doesn't even show, just frank bittering.

>Based on the fact that a normal boil of 90 minutes at a normal SG yields
only
>about 38% extraction typically, ...

Where in the h*ll are you getting your facts from???  <Grin>
 
Tinseth's and Garetz's rates are ~25% for 1050 wort for 90-minute boil.
Ragen's (Zymurgy) are totally whacked, flattening at 30% after 45 minutes.

Pressure hopping is wide open territory ready for exploring.  I am not the
expert on pressure-hopping, I tried it a couple of times a few years ago and
walked away from it in my personal practice.  Why don't you do some
experiments instead of carping and kvetching??  We'd rather hear about your
*experience* 

>>"The manufacturer of my pressure cooker, "All American",
>>recommends using an inner vessel for these goods." 

>That does ease my concern a little,
>but I will look for a detailed reference.

Good!  Tell us what you find.

Cheers,
Charles Rich (Bothell, Washington)

Carpe Carpum, "Sieze the Carp!"  --Thomas Pynchon


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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 15:38:12 -0700
From: "Maribeth Raines, Ph.D." <raines at cerviel.radonc.ucla.edu>
Subject: 25 years of homebrewing

You are cordially invited to attend The Maltose Falcons Home Brewing
Society 25th anniversary banquet.  The banquet will be held at the Los
Angeles Equestrian Center in Burbank on September 18, 1999.   The
festivities start at 5 pm and include lots of great beer, the Falcons Blues
& Brews Band, a retrospective look at the Falcons and their role in
craftbrewing with a few words from some special guests.  In addition you
will receive a souvenir glass and bottle of IPA brewed in conjunction with
the new BJ's brewpub in Woodland Hills.

Why should you attend?  This is a historic event worth celebrating since
the Maltose Falcons are the oldest homebrewing club in the U.S.  Yes, we
were organized before homebrewing was legal!!  The Falcons have a rich
heritage and are known throughout the US and Europe.   As a fellow
homebrewer we would like you to celebrate with us. If you have been to one
of our festivals then you know how much fun we are going to have. If you
have not been to one of our fests, then be prepared to have a great time.

Tickets are $40 for non-members (this includes a one year membership to our
club); a second ticket can be purchased at the paid member price of $20.
Tickets must be purchased in advance by September 1, 1999.  Please e-mail
me at mraines at ucla.edu to arrange your ticket orders.

Please pass this on to any interested clubs.

Cheers!

MB Raines-Casselman
Anniversary Committee Chairman


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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 23:10:36 +0000
From: James Jerome <jkjerome at bellsouth.net>
Subject: B-Brite in dishwasher

Hi Ya'll

Does anyone have a reason or caution about putting B-brite in the little
compartment of my dishwasher normally reserved for detergent?  I would
like to reduce the time spent performing the odious task of sterilizing
bottles and this seems like a good idea.  Any warning flags?

Thank you in advance for your input.

Hoppily,

Jett Jerome
Ooltewah, TN


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Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:58:44 -0700
From: Brad & Lorena Kuhns <bnlkuhns at netzero.net>
Subject: Dry Yeast

Hi Group,

I just came across something I have never heard before. I brewed a nice Nut 
brown this weekend and used dry yeast and dehydrated 2 packages per the 
instructions on the back 105 deg for 15 min's. I pitched and expected it to 
take right off but 2 1/2 days later no activity at this point I am really 
worried. I went got some more yeast and pitched this time some White labs 
liquid and it took off 8 hrs later. The gal and my brew shop told me that every 
time she and other people have rehydrated at that temp they have gotten the 
same results. Did I kill the yeast? It kinda seems like it. Is there any 
validity to the statement the brew shop owner made?

Thanks for your help

Brad Kuhns
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