---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Fw: ("Matt M. Smiley")
  Cleaning a CF wort chiller (Harlan Bauer)
  Fw: Homebrew Digest Request (August 24, 1999) ("Matt M. Smiley")
  vacuum sealer bags (Chester Waters)
  EisBock ("Jeff Beinhaur")
  Cleaning/Sanitizing a CF Chiller ("Eric R. Theiner")
  yeast, theory etc (jliddil)
  Re: ice beer (Jeff Renner)
  Re: NEW Topic YEAST! (Jeff Renner)
  Are you now or have you ever been a homebrewer? ("Christopher Farley")
  Ice Brewing ("Christopher Farley")
  Re: Cleaning CF Chillers ("Mercer, David")
  Ice Cider ("Donald D. Lake")
  Cleaning Licorice ("Paul Niebergall")
  Bulkhead Fitting for Mash Tun (Chuck Cubbler)
  Attenuation Control (Eric R Lande)
  attenuation control ("Bayer, Mark A")
  Re: Licorice beer (Scott Murman)
  White Labs & homebrew shops (Scott Birdwell)
  Franziskaner Clone? (Victor Macias)
  Japanese Brewery to stop using GM Corn (reposted from another list) (darrell.leavitt)
  Re: Ice beer (Spencer W Thomas)


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 01:31:57 -0500
From: "Matt M. Smiley" <msmiley at UTMB.EDU>
Subject: Fw:




> In response to AJ deLange's post regarding something I posted a week or so
> ago...
>
> >>Matt Smiley posted
>
> >>(EtOH + NAD+ ---> acetaldhyde +NADH).
> >>The second step uses the enzyme aldehyde dehydrogenase (acetaldehyde +
> >>NAD+ ----> acetate + NADH).....
>
> >and then implied that it was not brewing related. Well, no need. Of
> >course it is brewing related especially if we add the first part of the
> >path in thus:
>
> Actually I was talking entirely about ethanol and aldehyde metabolism by
the
> human liver -- I had nothing to say in that post about yeast -- so, yes,
> that information is not brewing related it is DRINKING related. I'm pretty
> sure the ADH in yeast and the ADH in human are chemically different but
with
> very similary mechanisms.
>
> If you study the yeast fermentation and respiration cycle (it looks like
you
> have - I haven't for a couple years) many of the enzyme names and
inhibitory
> processes are similar. In fact I remember back in biochemistry class that
> yeast alcohol dehydrogenase reactions were used to demonstrate all sorts
of
> enzymatic mechanisms.
>
> ---------------------------
>
> Matt M. Smiley
> Port Bolivar, Texas, on the scenic Redneck Riviera
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> "Beer - the cause of (and the solution to) most of life's problems."
> -- H.J. Simpson
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 01:38:42 -0500
From: Harlan Bauer <blacksab at midwest.net>
Subject: Cleaning a CF wort chiller

Tom O'Conner asked about cleaning a CF wort chiller. I would recomend 2
products by Birko, ACID BRITE and BRU-R-EZ. This is what I use at the
brewpub where I brew and used on my copper CF chiller when I homebrewed
(I still use my home system for yeast propagation). Check the archives
for my recent post on homebrewed CIP. I really can't say enough good
things about these cleaners--they work!

Also, I would suggest attaching shutoff valves to both ends of the CF so
that the chiller can be packed with iodophor for storage.

Hope this helps,
Harlan.


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 03:21:27 -0500
From: "Matt M. Smiley" <msmiley at UTMB.EDU>
Subject: Fw: Homebrew Digest Request (August 24, 1999)


> Response to Alan Meeker, Baltimore, MD:
>
> Alan, you have a big post, so you're getting a big response! (I do my best
> typing and thinking while having a few beers when I'm supposed to be in
> bed!) Sorry - had to truncate some of your original text to stay within
the HBD 8K limit. Hopefully folks that are insterested will refer to the
previous message in previous digest
>
> >Matt and Todd have been having an interesting conversation on diet and
> >ethanol. Here's some info and some questions of my own.
>
> - ------------------------------------------------------------------------
- --
> -
> >Ketone bodies, nitrogen balance,  and protein diets:
>
(MS)
> Alan, protien catabolism is a little out of my league at this point, but I
> do have one general statement to make. While the body burns numerous types
> of molecules as fuel, different types of molecules have different "costs"
> associated with their metabolism. Glucose is preferentially used because
the
> catabolism of the molecules and conversion of same to energy have a very
low
> associated cost. Fats, surprisingly, are rather "expensive" to metabolize.
> When you ingest a gloubule of fat, your digestive system literally has to
> take it completely apart in order to transport it to the places where its
> energy will be used and then it has to almost completely reassemble it to
> make it useful again (kind of like when they used to relocate volkswagens
> into your college dean's office). Because, however, the relative energy
> content in fats is so great, the body still realizes a net energy benefit
> from doing all this work. This is not the case (I believe) with proteins,
> however. The metabolism of various protiens can be a costly and
complicated
> process and is worth it to the body not necessarily because of the energy
> gained, but because amino acids are structurally essential and the body
> cannot synthesize a number of them (8 of the 20, I think) and must
> aggressively glean these from the diet (certain fats are essential in the
> same way).
>
>
> (AM)
> >There are some currently fashionable diets that stipulate that a high
> >proportion of total calories from protein. A caution often heard from
> critics
> >is that this can lead to unhealthy levels of ketone bodies in the blood
> which
> >may lead to ketosis or even ketoacidosis. Does anyone have any actual
data
> on
> >this? I'm wondering how much of a problem this is with these protein
diets.
>
(MS)
> From what I have read, a human cannot go into DKA (the dangerous diabetic
> ketoacidosis) from restricting carbo intake or existing on pure protein as
> long a their liver is making glucose and the pancreas is makeing insulin
> with which to use it. HOWEVER, the urine test strips that are often used
by
> diabetics to test for DKA will often go "off the scale" on a person who is
> in significant dietary ketosis. These test strips are not designed for
> dieters, however, there are designed for diabetics to warn them of an
> disease condition that in their case will soon progress to a dangerous or
> deadly state. What I have heard about super high protein diets is that
they
> can stress out and possibly damage the kidneys. This is a problem for
> bodybuilders who consume unnatrual amounts of purified protein from a jar
> trying to build muscle, not guys like me who occasionally (or frequently)
> sit down and eat a pound and a half of juicy ribeye steak. If you're
> interested in the normal benign process of non-diabetic ketosis, pick up a
> decent textbook on nutrition and/or biochemistry and read about the
> starvation process in humans. It will enlighten you as to the processes
that
> work in these diets.
>
(AM)
> >Of all the blood-borne energy sources the ketone bodies seem to have the
> >largest variations in concentration normally. So, while blood glucose
> levels
> >are kept within fairly tight limits  (maybe a two-fold variation in
> >concentration) and fatty acids fluctuate about ten-fold, the ketone
bodies
> can
> >range some 100 - 200 fold. Normal levels are < 1mM which increases to
about
> >5mM during fasting ("normal" physiological ketosis) but can increase to
> about
> >20mM  in the ketoacidosis of diabetes. Where exactly do these protein
diets
> >place a person and where along this continuum does one start running into
> >trouble? This is what I haven't seen addressed.
>
(MS)
> Actually, blood glucose levels are not normally kept in tight limits at
all.
> Even a two-fold increase is a huge variation, but non-diabetic insulin
> resistant folks who "misbehave" (i.e. eat a quart of ice cream or
something)
> will have a massive surge in blood glucose levels, often follwed by a
> hyperactive insulin response that will drop those blood sugar levels to
true
> hypoglycemic states in a matter of an hour or two (this is why some people
> literally pass out after a bug sugar binge). Normal non-resistant people
> experience wide fluctuations in blood sugar too but don't get
hypoglycelmic.
> That's why they always test your blood sugar in the morning after an 8
hour
> fast or so.
>
> As for normal ketone levels, I really know nothing about that, except that
> the liver constantly produces ketones as a result of fat and protein
> metabolism and the body is designed to readily consume them as fuel. I
would
> suspect that increased dietary intake of ketogenic precursors would, like
> the sugar, result in elevated ketone levels after processing.
>
> (AM)
> >Also, ketosis is supposedly  dangerous for the developing fetus
> >(specifically the brain). It seems therefore that protein diets wouldn't
be
> a
> >good idea for pregnant women aside from the lob-sided nutritional aspects
> >clashing witht the nutritional needs of the developing fetus.
>
(MS)
> This too I would know nothing about, but I do know that pregnant women who
> try any sort of unusual diet to try keep extra pounds off while a new life
> is rapidly developing inside them are foolish. They should be allowed to
> enjoy themselves and eat healthy amounts of whatever they want with the
> exception of alcohol and cigarettes, and deal with the extra pounds after
> the baby has been born.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Nitrogen Balance and amino acid metabolism:
>
> >Another aspect of amino acid metabolism I haven't seen discussed in
> relation
> >to these diets is that of nitrogen balance. Amino acid metabolism by the
> liver
> >generates ammonia which usually gets converted to urea for excretion by
the
> >kidneys. It seems than that a diet relying heavilly on protein would
place
> >extra stress on the liver and kidneys. In fact, protein-restricted diets

>
> *I suggest you read my previous post of a week or so ago called "beer
> metabolism" Or, what the hell, I'll just mail it to you, 'cause it's
getting
> late!
> - ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 -
> Apparently in well-fed normal individuals blood glucose actually
/increases/
> following ethanol ingestion. However, if glycogen stores have been
depleted
>
> *Again, see previous dissertation. On it's way to you.
>
> Eating fructose used to be touted as a way to defeat the breathalyzer
> because
> it can help restore NAD+ levels. While this is true, it really wont help
you
> beat a breathalyzer so don't bother switching completely over to fruit
> beers!
>
> How bout pure fructose you can buy in the bottle? Will that help me beat
the
> cops?
>
> Hope this was useful
>
>  -Alan Meeker
> Baltimore, MD
>
>
>
> Matt M. Smiley
> Port Bolivar, Texas, on the scenic Redneck Riviera
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> "Beer - the cause of (and the solution to) most of life's problems."
> -- H.J. Simpson
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>
>



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 04:31:24 -0500
From: Chester Waters <cwaters at home.com>
Subject: vacuum sealer bags

May I ask the collective to pursue the vacuum sealing bags some of us
use in storing  whole hops. I like to buy in 1 LB. quantities so I'm
never ' just a few grams shy' of the amount I need for a given brew. I
vacuum-seal with a Foodsaver using their bags (by Tilia), and store in a
 -20F freezer. The bags do hold a vacuum well, but of course that doesn't
mean that some oxygen enters over time, and sometimes I have hops stored
well over a year  beyond harvest. Has anyone found a source for TRUE
"oxygen-barrier" - e.g.foil/mylar - bags, and tried them in a vacuum
sealer? I wonder whether it would make a significant difference if hops
are in frozen storage for extended periods.  Thanks - C. Waters
                                            
(Waters Wort Works, or the "Under the basement stairs Brewery")


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:04:27 -0400
From: "Jeff Beinhaur" <beinhaur at email.msn.com>
Subject: EisBock

So now that we all know about the term "ice beer" how would one go about
producing a home brewed version. I never brewed a barley wine or a
Oktoberfest in time for the holidays so I'm thinking that an EisBock might
be a good alternative. I would assume a high gravity lager with a normal
primary and secondary fermentation process and then the "icing" process. If
my assumption is correct so far then it seems that one would have to do the
lagering/icing in some sort of container that would allow you to skim the
ice like a plastic fermentor. So again if my assumptions are correct so far
wouldn't I be taking a huge risk of introducing nasties during this
"skimming" phase? Does anyone have any practical advice on this process?

Jeff Beinhaur, Camp Hill, PA
Home of the "new" Yellow Breeches Brewery





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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:08:44 -0700
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: Cleaning/Sanitizing a CF Chiller

IMHO, the best way is through simple boiling water.  It is true that we
make cleansers for use in brewing, but in my brewhouse, the only thing
to touch the inside of my CF chiller is wort and water-- I really think
that using anything else is a) potentially hazardous to the life of your
chiller, and b) a waste.

Copper is obviously a soft metal, and it is susceptible to corrosion in
the presence of both alkalis and acids.  Unless you can be absolutely
certain that you have rinsed the entire length completely, I wouldn't
trust the chance of residuals.

I realize that this is rather anal and unreasonable, but I didn't get
the occasional nickname of "Brew Nazi" for nothing!<g>

Anyway, before and after brewing, I boil about 2-3 gallons of water and
run that through the chiller (with cooling water off and hoses
disconnected-- my chiller is made with hose designed to take quite a bit
of heat, so this might not work for some).  I don't worry about
sanitation on the hot end (it's pretty close to the flame during boiling
and is probably in excess of 200 F for much of that time, and I use some
acid based sanitizer applied with a toothbrush to the other end just
prior to use (to be safe).

Never had a skunked batch yet.

Rick Theiner




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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 07:27:32 -0700 (MST)
From: jliddil at VMS.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: yeast, theory etc

I want to clarify my post about data on the Wyeast site. My point was that
I realy do not think that Dave Logsdon did the experiment to determine the
data he presents there.  And he does not rpovide a reference for the data.
Thus one ehsould question is it valid data.  This goes for anything.

As tot he shop owner who is getting asked to switch from one brand to the
other I would suggest he ask a few questions.  How is the manufacutuer
doing qc/qa testing.  Is every batch tested?  Waht are the limits of
sensitivity for the testing methods being used?  Is there a master culture
and working cultures and how often does the lab go back to the master
cultures?  What testing has been done on the strains being used?  For
example has the lab used something like the Biolog system to trakc the
yeast for characterisitc changes?  Is the lab willing to provide actual
testing data from their lab?  Are they willing to undergo FDA inspection?

WRT to pumps and reynolds etc.  I think we all need to read the posts and
try not to get glassy eyed by the numbers etc.  Do the arguements posted
seem reasonable?  Are the numbers in the ball park?  And one can post all
the theoretical stuff they want but it is really not validated until one
has done the experiment with the materials in question.  Is anyone going
to do some pumping experiments and then run some PAGE gels to look at
protein breakdown?

Jim Liddil North Haven, CT



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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:38:24 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: ice beer

I wrote:

> It, as I recall,
>reduces lagering time and increases stability by removing certain size
>proteins, and, I think, some maltiness,

This poorly constructed sentence was intended to say that I think it
increased maltiness.  It is still a QDA.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:13:55 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: NEW Topic YEAST!

Roger Ayotte  <<RCAYOT at solutia.com> writes:


>Are there any 

>     other fruity yeasts out there that are also top fermenting? 
Anyone 

>     try the "Ringwood" yeast?  What does it compare to?  Is it
available 

>     to homebrewers?


A favorite of mine - top fermenting yeasts - ones that throw up a thick
pancake of yeast.  There is some confusion about the Ringwood yeast,
which is a definite top fermenter.  As a matter of fact, our local
Ringwood brewpub, Grizzley Peak, throws in a submersible pump on the
second or third (?) day and sprays a fountain of fermenting beer over
the yeast head to reoxygenate the beer.  This results in a distinctive
diacetyl house characteristic, needless to say.


Some have claimed that Wyeast 1968 is Ringwood, others have disputed
this.  I don't know.  Others have claimed that 1968 is NCYC 1187, and
that this is Ringwood.  This I can refute.  1187, which I have used
from Yeast Culture Kit Co., does *not* make a yeast head.  As a matter
of fact, it acts like a bottom fermenter - it really drops out fast
when it's done.  YeastLab sells it as A10 (available only to micros and
brewpubs in large amounts) as ideal for unitanks because it drops so
well.  YCKC also sells it.  Don't know the number.


YeastLab A09,  English ale yeast, is definitely Ringwood.  Dan
McConnell, who owns YCKC and produces YeastLabs liquid yeasts, posted
this to HBD in Dec., 1994.


A really fine top fermenting English yeast is NCYC 1332, which is
called Strathcona in homebrew circles because it was used by the now
defunct Strathcona micro (BP?) in Edmundton.  YCKC sells it.  It
produces nice complex flavored ales.  


The NCYC site http://www.ifrn.bbsrc.ac.uk/ncyc/ does give the
information Roger wanted (but they won't give the original source of
the yeast).  Here is what they say about 1332 (the site tells how to
interpret the numbers).  Note that it mentions good head formation
(>15mm!):

Species: Saccharomyces cerevisiae

Strain no. 1332

Head formation. good head

Deposit - amount of yeast deposited. > 15mm

Attenuation. 1.006-1.008

Rate of fermentation. 6-8

Clarity of the final beer. 0-10


My new favorite English top fermenter, which gives that fruitiness that
Roger wanted, is from Ridley's in Essex, UK.  I brought home a
contaminated sample from the brewery this March which Dan cleaned up
for me.  (They have a new head brewer and my man in Essex says the
beers are improving).  It really wants to climb to the top of the beer,
and maybe out of it.  It produces a really authentic English flavor
profile.  Fruity with other complexities.  I just finished a really
nice mild made with it.  Dan sells slants of this yeast through YCKC. 
As someone recently mentioned, Dan has lots he doesn't mention in his
catalog.  Just ask him mailto:YCKCo at aol.com.  Usual disclaimer.   Dan
is a friend and gives me starters for his own QA and because he's a
nice guy, but, as Dave Draper liked to quote me when he posted here, "I
can't be bought for a mere $3.50."


Jeff


And now for a change of quote on the signature:

 -=-=-=-=-=-

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA c/o nerenner at umich.edu


"I have found that alcohol taken in sufficient quantity produces all
the effects of drunkenness."  Oscar Wilde (1854-1900), Irish author,
playwright and wit.


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:44:58 -0500
From: "Christopher Farley" <chris at northernbrewer.com>
Subject: Are you now or have you ever been a homebrewer?

Dic Gleason ponders:
> The General made the statement that anyone that
> homebrews is able to produce biological weapons. This shines a new light on
> the Art vs. Science discussion now going on. Are we home brewers or
> potential terrorists?

It's just that homebrewing represents the perfect intersection of those who
have the technical ability to work with biological weapons, and those who fit
the psychological profile. What *exactly* is your problem with mass produced
American beer, buster? Are you some kind of communist?

Christopher Farley
Northern Brewer, Ltd.
Saint Paul, Minnesota
www.northernbrewer.com
(800) 681-2739




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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:08:07 -0500
From: "Christopher Farley" <chris at northernbrewer.com>
Subject: Ice Brewing

Jeff Renner writes:
> It seems that this is a procedure that is easily adapted to amateur scale.
I
> was convinced enough of the advantages that I intended to use it.

Before me and my brewing partners upgraded our lagering fridge, we spent a
winter unintentionally making ice beer. The back row of the fridge was
particularly conducive to freezing up the kegs. We often wouldn't know for
sure whether the beer was iced until the filtering process, in which case we
would yield a much lower volume.

Apart from a rather elevated alcohol content, the thing I noticed most about
the beers was their clarity and stability, as Dr. Fix has apparently noticed.
We iced pilsener, bock, maerzen and just about every style imaginable.

After the first icing, we were quite enthusiastic about the process. We tried
to duplicate it. This proved problematic. Even if you have extremely precise
temperature control, isn't "icing" difficult to control because you have to
capture the beer in its transition state (from liquid to solid)? And doesn't
that depend on how much time the beer spends in the transition state? With a
very small mass of beer, and the impossibility of visually monitoring or
otherwise measuring the degree of "icing", how do you adapt ice brewing to an
amateur scale?

Christopher Farley
Northern Brewer, Ltd.
Saint Paul, Minnesota
www.northernbrewer.com
(800) 681-2739




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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:14:31 -0700
From: "Mercer, David" <dmercer at path.org>
Subject: Re: Cleaning CF Chillers

Tom asked about cleaning CF chillers, a topic that comes up every now and
then. Here's how I do it:

After I've finished with it, I back flush the chiller with high pressure
water from my garden hose, make sure the casing is completely drained of
cooling water, then run about a gallon of moderately strong TSP solution
through the chiller. (Actually, I use a non-phosphorus TSP substitute made
by Red Devil called TSP-90. It works great for all kinds of cleaning. I am a
big fan of this stuff. Even used it this past weekend for an, almost,
no-effort cleaning of my deck.) After the TSP-90 flush, I flush with a
gallon of boiling water, drain all the water out of the chiller, and STORE
IT DRY. On brew day, right before I use it, I run about a gallon of boiling
water through the dry chiller, then I leave the tubing full of boiled water
and immerse the racking cane end into the boiling wort. The boiled water in
the tubing starts the siphon when it comes time to rack. 

I cannot over-emphasize the advice about storing the chiller dry. I know
several people in this forum have advocated storing chillers filled with
iodophor solution. I, too, used to do this. But I found it corroded the
tubing. The first time I used TSP-90, after about two years of routinely
storing my chiller filled with iodophor solution, the TSP-90 flushed big
disgusting chunks of black crud out of the tubing and the water was tea
colored. I had to use three gallons of strong solution plus an hour in a
pure vinegar soak to get the tubing clean. I don't think this stuff was
necessarily infectious, because I've never had a problem with infected
batches. But it was gross looking and not something I'd want to get into my
beer.

Anyway, that's how I clean and store my chiller, and the system works for
me.

Dave in Seattle


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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:33:14 -0400
From: "Donald D. Lake" <dake at gdi.net>
Subject: Ice Cider

I have a client who's an old farmer from upstate New York.  Back during
the prohibition, his neighbor used to make hard apple cider and leave
let it freeze in the the barrel during the winter.  After it froze, he
would force a hot poker down the center of the frozen barrel.  They
would pour off the "distilled" apple jack and use it to keep warm for
the winter.

Thoses were the days.

Don
- --
************************************************************************

Donald D. Lake * Vice President * American Municipal Securities, Inc.
             2699 Lee Road, Suite 410 * Winter Park, FL  32789
            Phone: 407-644-4998  800-768-8585 * Fax 407-644-1005
             E-mail:  dlake at amuni.com   http://www.amuni.com
              "Specializing in Tax-Advantaged Investing"
************************************************************************





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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:22:07 -0500
From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject: Cleaning Licorice

Thomas O'Connor writes about sanitizing/cleaning counterflow wort chillers

>The question is... how the hell do you clean the damn thing?  I've 
sifted 
>through my books and mags (Z and BT's) and haven't found an 
authoritative 
>recommendation on how best to do it.  I've used the  chiller for 
years, 
>actually, and have lived in less-than-blissful ignorance by running 5 
gals 
>of boiling H2O through in before and after using it.

All I have ever done is run about 5 gallons of boiling water through mine 
before use.  After use, I run hot tap water through it and then just shake 
(while twirling or rotating) out the excess water.  This has worked just 
fine for me for the past 5 years or so.  If you start to get second 
thoughts and think that you need something a little more effective than 
plain old boiling water, just grab a hold (for a second or two) of the 
copper input coil while flushing to remind yourself just how effective it 
is.

>This has served me pretty well, as rarely does a batch end up funked, and 
then I cannot say 
>that it wasn't from some other source (faulty yeast starter, long lag 
time, carboy contamination, >etc.)

If your cleaning method aint broke.....

>I must admit I've dabbled with running through some of the same boiling 
water with a few >droppersful of phosphoric acid (reagent grade) or some 
unknown powerful alkali powder a >friend gave me in it (some hydroxide of 
one sort or another), but obviously I don't  know what >I'm doing.  The 
tubing is, of course, copper.  My  well-intentioned efforts and the fact 
that my >beers taste good have given me no  comfort...as GOD only knows 
what's growing inside that >thing.So, my HBD colleagues, what'd you 
recommend as THE right cleaner/sanitizer??  MANY >THANKS

If you have no reason to believe there is a problem (beer tastes fine, 
proper carbonation levels, etc.), then there is probably isnt one.  I 
tried a few on mine (bleach solution, iodine, TSP, among a others), but 
since I didnt want to disturb the chemistry of the copper tubing, I gave 
up on the use of cleaners and sanitizers.  I really dont know if you will 
ever get consensus on "THE" right cleaner/sanitizer.

George writes about ethyl hexanoate: 

>Ethyl hexaoate, an ester, is perceived by some as licorice (that's how 
>I taste it), but is found to be more like apples by others.  This 
explains several of 
>the points in recent posts:

>1.  Only some people taste it.
>2.  The brewery denies the licorice addition.

>Fermentation conditions and yeast strain will greatly effect the level 
>of ethyl hexanoate found in the beer.  Granted, it does seem to be 
relatively rare
 >(I have only tasted it once in years of homebrew judging), but it could 
be what's
 >going on in OP.

More precisely, Ethyl Hexanoate (CAS = 123-6-0) is a saturated, open 
chain, non-aromatic ester My flavor reference (Aldrich) includes fruity, 
wine-like, apple, banana, brandy as the flavors associated with this 
compound.  Licorice is not listed.  Im not saying that you dont perceive 
Ethyl Hexanoate as licorice, but if I was looking for licorice flavor, I 
would choose something else.

According to NTP Chemical Repository (Radian Corporation, August 29, 
1991), the following chemicals or compounds can contribute to a licorice 
flavor:

anethol
p-propenylanisole
anise camphor
isoestragole
p-methoxy-beta-methylstyrene
1-methoxy-4-propenylbenzene
nauli "gum"
oil of aniseed
1-(p-methoxyphenyl)propene
p-1-propenylanisole
4-propenylanisole
p-propenylphenyl methyl ether
1-methoxy-4-(1-propenyl)benzene


Paul Niebergall
Burns & McDonnell
pnieb at burnsmcd.com
"Illegitimis non carborundum"


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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:10:22 -0400
From: Chuck Cubbler <chuck at maguire.com>
Subject: Bulkhead Fitting for Mash Tun

Eric asked about making a bulkhead fitting for his chest-type cooler to 
mash tun conversion.

I puzzled over this also.  Finally used a plastic valve from a bottling 
bucket.  Cut away the "outer" shell of the cooler large enough so that the 
body of the valve fits thru.  Now insert the male threads thru the inner 
lining.  Install rubber washer and nut so that you tighten on the thickness 
of the inner lining only.

Now, use a Female adapter, that is 3/4 Fem Pipe thread by, in your case, 
3/4 sweat fit.  Thread onto the remaining male threads of plastic valve.  I 
assembled on a bench first, and used a center punch to dimple all of the 
copper to copper  fittings so they fit more snugly, yet are easily 
disassembled.

Chuck
Brewing in NJ, finally one I can answer.

PS Anyone know why I cannot post from my mailcity.com account.  I get an 
error message from hbd auto responder about lines containing too many 
characters, or something????


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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 12:45:23 -0400
From: Eric R Lande <landeservices at juno.com>
Subject: Attenuation Control

In HBD #3118 Scott Church asks about stopping fermentation early to
achieve a high FG.

Scott, a few concerns come to mind with the idea of stopping fermentation
before it is done.  The first thing that comes to mind is that the
finished product will be more sweet and/or less clean tasting.  Also,
bottling is out.  In order to stop the fermentation you will have to
remove (filter) or kill (pasteurize) the yeast so there will be no way to
carbonate the beer.  If you are set up for kegging this is not a problem
because you can force carbonate.  The next item that come to mind is that
one of the great things about "living beer" is that, just like you are I,
beer changes over time.  I brewed a Strong Scotch Ale almost two years
ago.  It was hideous at racking time.  I bottled it and tried it in a
month and it wasn't bad.  After six months it got rave reviews from
people who tried it.  I brought a bottle to a Homebrew Club meeting a few
months ago at around eighteen or nineteen months and even the experienced
judges in the club were looking for a second taste.  Now at, 1 year 45
weeks, I have a bottle or two left and think that I will save it for new
years eve 2000.

Anyway, instead of stopping the fermentation early, try mashing at a
higher temperature.  By mashing at, say 156-158F, you will form more
dextrins (unfermentables) thus increasing the FG and the mouth feel.   If
you extract brew you could try a less attenuative yeast and a malt
extract that has a lower rate of fermentability.  I'm sure that you will
get other suggestions from the HBD group.  Good luck and happy brewing.


Eric Lande
Brewery to be named when I finish it
Doylestown, PA


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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:38:10 -0700
From: "Bayer, Mark A" <Mark.Bayer at JSF.Boeing.com>
Subject: attenuation control

collective homebrew conscience_

scott c wrote:

>I have had a few beer come out with much lower gravities than I would have
>liked.
>How to avoid this?:   should I just stop the Primary fairly early?

you can affect your final gravity by choosing a less-attenuative yeast.
also, you may be able to finish a little higher if you are an all-grain
brewer and you saccharify at a higher temperature.  i believe some of the
crystal malts (and maybe others?) will also boost finishing gravities, but
that's a malt bill change and it may not be appropriate for the beers you
brew.

"stopping" the primary fermentation (via filtration, crash chilling,
potassium sorbate ?) might leave some "worty" tastes in your beer that you
won't like.  i've had fermentations that didn't go all the way to completion
due to poor yeast health/low population, plus my impatience to get the beer
in the lagering tank.  i had a vienna-style lager a couple years ago that
finished at 1.018.  i thought that was fine until i tasted the beer.  it had
a worty taste component, similar to the taste of a wort gravity sample.

on an aside, it's not only the malty unbalanced sweet portion of the worty
taste that i dislike, it's also a sort of an "unrefined" hop flavor.  i get
this same flavor in some beers that are dry-hopped, even though they may be
properly attenuated.  i wonder sometimes if the reason some german brewers
(e.g. prince ludwig) blanch their hops before dry-hopping is in part to try
and change this raw hop flavor slightly.  (the other reason would be to
avoid infection)

i would recommend experimenting with yeast strains and mash temperatures
before moving on to other methods of final gravity adjustment.  beyond the
ale/lager distinction in attenuation capability, an unattenuative yeast
strain (e.g. wyeast 1968) that is treated properly and ferments strongly
will be an easier (and hence more repeatable) method of controlling final
gravity than trying to intervene at precisely the right moment to stop the
yeast from fermenting the beer further.

what would be interesting would be to combine attenuative yeasts and high
mash temps and contrast that with unattenuative yeasts and low mash temps,
for the same malt/hop bill and fermentation schedule.  for similar finishing
gravities, what would the flavor differences be?  it might be tough to
distinguish the process-derived differences from the differences due to
using different yeasts.  i guess a lager recipe would be more conducive to
getting decent information.  this is turning into a ramble-fest. 

good to hear from george de piro.  i hope he doesn't let the demand for his
beer  cause a compromise in methods.  that might turn into a self-correcting
problem.  so easily proclaimed by a home-brewer, right george? ; )

brew hard,

mark bayer
stl mo


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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:38:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: Licorice beer


I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned, but one possible source of
licorice-type flavors is hop resins.  I know Northern Brewer is a
variety that's been accused of providing these accents.

 -SM-


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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:28:24 -0500
From: Scott Birdwell <defalcos at insync.net>
Subject: White Labs & homebrew shops

Regarding Chris Farley's post in #3116 concerning Wyeast & White Labs:
 
"Wyeast's David Logsdon has been trying to convince me to stop carrying
Wlabs
yeast vials and become an exclusive Wyeast supplier. As a retailer, I
value
having a diversity of cultures, but according to Logsdon, "the products
Wlabs
sell, are in most if not all cases sourced from us." I have used every
Wyeast
lager culture, and have never seen a yeast ferment like Wlabs Pilsen
yeast.

Is Logson correct in stating that Wlabs has sourced "most if not all"
their
cultures from Wyeast? Logson also claims that Wlabs production and
management
of the strains has been questioned by many brewers, but I have found
Wlabs
yeast to be completely consistent. Additionally, I've followed the HBD
for a
while and can only recall hearing positive things about Wlabs."

Far be it from me to tell another homebrew shop owner how to operate
their own shop. . . people have been trying to tell me how to run mine
for the last twenty years (ever notice how good these people are at
running other folks' business & poor at running thir own. . .?).  But,
if you want my two cents worth, I'll give it to you.  First, do you
really care if White Labs sourced their strains from Wyeast or directly
from other yeast banks?  The real question is whether or not you and
your customers like the quality and convenience of the White Labs
yeasts.  We have been selling them about a year and a half now and are
very pleased, indeed.  I originally planned on only handling 4 - 6
strains, because I was very concerned about turning the product over. 
This has turned out, thus far, to be a non-issue.  We typically run very
low  or out of these yeasts before the next order arrives, i.e. they
selling extremely well!  We are currently up to about a dozen different
strains, too.  Despite the fact that we charge $2 more for them, they
have taken probably 30% of my liquid yeast sales and remarkably enough,
even some of my dried yeast sales!  I don't anticipate them replacing
the "smack packs entirely.  I still like the storage properties and
"hands-off" mini-yeast starter properties of the smack packs too much.  
        BTW after we had been selling the White Labs for a few months,
Dave
came out with his version of the vials.  We simply did not have as good
a luck with them as with the White Labs, plus by that time my customers
were accustomed to the White Labs products.  Don't get me wrong about
Wyeast or Dave Logsdon.  I have the utmost respect for his products and
how he has revolutionized our industry.  I just think their is room for
more than one yeast supplier, just as, I am positive all the
distributors will tell you there is room for more than one retailer for
their products.  
        Personally I don't like manufacturers and distributors trying to
tell
me what products I should handle and which ones I shouldn't.  Let's face
it, they have a vested interest in making sure we only buy products from
them and them alone.  In my opinion, however, we, as retailers, owe it
to our customers and ourselves to offer a wide array of quality
products.  This is what keeps the customer coming back and ultimately,
paying the bills.  
        Anyway, that's my perspective.

Scott Birdwell
DeFalco's Home Wine & Beer Supplies
Houston, TX
(considerably south of Jeff Renner)


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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:59:38 -0700
From: Victor Macias <VMacias at foxsports.net>
Subject: Franziskaner Clone?

Greetings.  I'm 6 six brews into my homebrewing life, and I'd like to make
an extract clone of Spaten Franziskaner Hefeweisen.  I'll definitely use the
Wyeast Weihenstaphen, but I'm not sure about the extract/specialty/hops
part.  Anyone out there have any success with such a thing?  Thanks!


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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:19:26 -0500 (EST)
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Japanese Brewery to stop using GM Corn (reposted from another list)

retransmitted from another list:
- ----------------------
From:	IN%"jeaton at fox.nstn.ca"  "Janet M Eaton" 24-AUG-1999 14:27:03.06
To:	IN%"mai-not at flora.org"
CC:	
Subj:	Kirin- Japan. Beer Co. - to end use of  GM corn
Comments: Authenticated sender is <jeaton at fox.nstn.ca>
Original-recipient: rfc822;LEAVITDG at SPLAVA.CC.PLATTSBURGH.EDU

" Kirin .... will stop using genetically modified (GM) corn to
make beer by 2001, due to consumer concerns over the safety of
bioengineered crops. "

Consumer pressure seems to be  bearing results all over the world.  

FYI,
janet 

==================================

- ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
From:          "Biotech Activists" <biotech_activists at iatp.org>
To:            jeaton at fox.nstn.ca
Subject:       Kirin to end use of gene-altered corn in beer
Date:          Tue, 24 Aug 1999 09:08:55 -0500


================================							
Date Posted: 08/24/1999
Posted by: stauber at compuserve.com		
================================

- --------------- Forwarded Story ---------------

Headline: Kirin to end use of gene-altered corn in beer
Wire Service: RTf (Reuters Financial Report)
Date: Tue, Aug 24, 1999

 Copyright 1999 Reuters Ltd.  All rights reserved.
The following news report may not be republished or redistributed, in whole
or in part, without the prior written consent of Reuters Ltd.
 
    TOKYO, Aug 24 (Reuters) - Leading Japanese beer maker Kirin Brewery Co
Ltd said on Tuesday it will stop using genetically modified (GM) corn to
make beer by 2001, due to consumer concerns over the safety of
bioengineered crops.
    Although beer is exempt from Japanese requirements for labelling of
genetically altered food which take effect in April 2001, Kirin plans to
switch to non-GM corn, saying it cannot ignore consumer doubts about the
safety of such food.
    "We believe GM corn is safe. But as long as consumers are worried about
its safety, we want to take measures that will wipe out their worries," a
company spokesman said.
    Kirin has not so far distinguished between GM and non-GM corn when
buying raw materials.
    It uses nearly 200,000 tonnes of corn annually, most of it imported
from the United States.
    Kirin is considering signing new contracts with U.S. farmers and
distributors to supply exclusively non-GM corn, he added.
    The corn would be imported by the Japanese trading house Mitsubishi
Corp <8058.T>. Kirin is a member of the Mitsubishi group of companies.
    Under its food safety guidelines, Japan has approved 22 varieties of GM
crops for import and sale, including soybeans, corn, rapeseed, potatoes,
cotton and tomatoes.
    But the government earlier this month decided to impose labelling
requirements on these crops and food products made from them in order to
allow consumers to make an informed choice.
    It has exempted some processed food products, such as vegetable oil,
for which existing technology cannot determine if they were made using
genetically-altered ingredients.
    Japan imported 9.13 million tonnes of corn in the first half of 1999,
of which imports from the U.S. accounted for 8.82 million tonnes or 96.5
percent.
    Japan's farm ministry estimates GM corn accounted for 23 to 34 percent
of total corn planted acreage in the U.S. in 1998.
 
 REUTERS




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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:40:47 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Ice beer 

The Labatt (US) patent on the ice brewing process can be found at

http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US05695795__

It is patent number US 5695795: Methods for chill-treating
   non-distilled malted barley beverages

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)


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---