---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  over pressure boil/ altitude ("Micah Millspaw")
  The "New Brewing Method" ("Alan McKay")
  Ice Brewing (Louis Bonham)
  Acid Testing (AJ)
  Ice Beer (AJ)
  RE: Reynolds ... peristatlic pumps etc./shear calc needed (David Sweeney)
  [Fwd: ice brewing] (Marc Sedam)
  DeClerk (David Sweeney)
  Ice Beer (David Sweeney)
  Re: Mega brew terms (Bob Devine)
  Re: Mash Mixer ("Milito, Steve")
  Brewing weather ("bermingham")
  Dry Hopping and NEW Topic YEAST! (RCAYOT)
  Re: Mash Mixer/Evaporative cooling ("Timmons, Frank")
  Attenuation Control ("Scott Church")
  RE: Is hops our obsession? (John Wilkinson)
  Adding two kinds of hops at same time (Mark Dalton)
  Acid titration ("Christopher Farley")
  one more fermented item - Sauerkraut ("Alan McKay")
  procedures of the megas ... just ask ("Alan McKay")
  Re: licorice (Spencer W Thomas)
  Homebrew Shops in the Metro Denver Region (Matt Dickson)
  re: ice brewing (Jeff)
  Doing the Clinton Back Track (Eric R Lande)
  Ice Brew ("Dana H. Edgell")
  sanitizing/cleaning counterflow wort chillers ("Thomas O'Connor")
  Licorice beer ("Michael Josephson")
  Homebrewing and Biological Weapons ("Dic Gleason")
  Re: Ice beer (Jeff Renner)
  speedy maturation / ice beer / licorice ("George De Piro")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 06:57:00 -0500
From: "Micah Millspaw" <MMillspa at SILGANMFG.COM>
Subject: over pressure boil/ altitude

>From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
>Subject: over pressure boiling/ not boiling

>In 3116 Micah states,
> "Second, the chemical reactions 

>occuring in the boil (there are many) take place at the liquid/gas 

>inferace, at or near the surface of the wort in the kettle. THis is 
due 

>largely to the asmetrical cavitational collapse of the steam bubbles 
in 

>the wort itself."

>This is a puzzlement because, in speaking to a German Brewmaster at a 
>pub,
>he stated that to duplicate his recipe from Germany at sealevel that 
he 
>did not boil his wort because this would cause to much bitterness. He 
heated to 
>210 and held this because this was the boiling point at the altitude his
>recipes
>were made for. No boiling, no cavitational collapse but certainly
>isomerisation was going on, you could taste it in the beer.

It has been my experience (as a brewer ) that altitude, ie.. ambient 
atomspheric pressure does have an impact on the out come of a boil, 
especially hop utilizations. The lower the atmospheric pressure above the 
boiling surface of the wort the more rapid and efficient the isomerization 
will be, up to a point. Pressure reduction maybe natural (elevation 
change) or artifical (force venational). Expeimentation has shown that 
there is a cut off in improved hop utilization at a boil temperature of 
103F (aprrox 7500 ft.) 
Interestingly your German friend seems to be going the opposite way with 
his concept of what is going on. As the old saying goes, every one in a 
pub is an expert on beer. In any event, a master brewer should be able to 
brew anything, anywhere, without excuses. Not boiling the wort at all is 
likely to have other, perhaps more interesting effects over time.

Micah Millspaw - brewer at large


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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:20:51 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: The "New Brewing Method"


Hi folks,

Here's an interesting question posed in one of my German forums, and I
thought
I'd repeat it here.  Anyone know anything about this?  Translation below.
The original is at
http://www.bier-selbstgebraut.de/wwwforum/messages/395.html

hallo leute
ich hoere schon seit einiger zeit geruechte ueber neue braumethoden.
es ist von brauen ohne malz nur mit gerste und sehr niedrigen energieaufwand
mit gleichzeitig sehr guter qualitaet des bieres die rede. ich hab auch
schon
bier im handel gekauft mit dem vermerk "nach neuer braumethode" .
wer kennt diese neuen methoden ??? Bitte um info 
=== BEGIN ===
Hello people,
I've been hearing for some time noises being made about a new brewing
method.
Something about brewing without malt and only with barley with very low
energy requirements and at the same time with very good beer quality.
I've also bought commercial beer with "according to the new brewing
method" on the label.  Does anyone know this new method?
=== END ===
cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration	613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks		All opinions expressed are my own



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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 07:34:03 -0500
From: Louis Bonham <lkbonham at hypercon.com>
Subject: Ice Brewing

Hi folks:

Contrary to conventional wisdom (as articulated by a few folks in today's HBD),
the "ice-brewing" process actually *is* more than marketing hype.

First, let's make sure we understand what "ice-brewing" (as that term is used by
the big guys) actually is.  It is *not* the process of concentrating the alcohol
in the beer by dropping it to freezing temps and periodically removing the ice
which forms.  This process (used in producing eisbocks) is ancient, but is
verboten in the US (at least for commercial brewers), as the BATF and most
states treat it as a form of distillation which requires a distiller's permit.

"Ice brewing," OTOH, refers to a specific process patented a few years ago.  The
process involves chilling the beer to about 30F, and racking the beer off the
ice slurry just as it begins to form.  By so doing, the alcohol is not
materially concentrated (indeed, I believe that the big boys add a bit of water
back to the beer so that the alcohol level is utterly unchanged).  George Fix
acted as an expert witness in a patent infringement case involving this patent,
and is our resident expert on this subject.

The benefit of the process, according to George, is that the ice traps a number
of protein and other compounds that would normally drop out in extended
lagering, and thus this process dramatically shortens the required lagering
time.  George gave a technical presentation on this at the MCAB in February, and
says his split batch experiments demonstrate it does in fact produce significant
beneficial effects for lagers.

Perhaps if George has settled in in his new digs at Clemson he could comment a
bit here . . . . .

Louis K. Bonham



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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:59:16 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Acid Testing

Jack S asks about acid test kits. The basis for the kit that you are
using is that one milliequivalent(meq) of acid requires one
milliequivalent of base to neutralize it. What's a milliequivalent of
acid? For the purposes of this discussion it is 6.02E20 hydrogen ions.
0.2N sodium hydroxide contains 0.2 meq per milliliter so that if you put
15 mL (cc) of wine in a container and it takes 5 mL of 0.2N sodium
hydroxide to neutralize it then the 15 mL of wine contained (0.2)(5) = 1
meq per 15 mL. If you dilute the wine with any reasonable volume of
water you dilute the acidity but it's still 1 meq and it will still take
5 mL of sodium hydroxide to neutralize it. Thus it is the volume (or
weight) of the sample that is important - not how much you dilute it in
the course of making the measurement.

The milliequivalent is a very fine unit of acidity but various
industries can't seem to accept this and want their acidities expressed
in terms of particular acids that are relevent to their industry. In
brewing it's lactic, in the water industry it's carbonic and in the wine
industry it's tartaric for the total and acetic for the volatile (also
acetic for beer when beer volatile acids are measured). For cheese?
Don't know. Expressing the acidity "as" one acid or another gives you a
percentage value which would be the fractional weight of the particular
acid based on the assumption that it is the only acid in the sample.
Expressing acid "as" something requires multiplication by a factor which
depends on the acid designated. and the weight or volume of the sample
titrated. Thus if your kit reads percent as tartaric from a 15 mL sample
of wine its factor is innapropriate for other volumes. It would be best,
therefore, to use the milliequivalents (0.2 times the number of cc) and
divide by the volume thus in the example above of 1 meq/15 mL report
1/15 meq/mL or 16.7 mEq/L. Using the same kit for milk with a 10 mL
sample report x meq/10 mL or 100x meq/L.

The last two questions...
Both methods call for the same 3 drops of phenolphthalein.  Why not 1 or
10 or
why does not the amount of this effect the measurement.

What is the relationship between t.a. and pH?

 ...are related. pH is merely a way of telling when the acid has been
"neutralized". pH is a measure of the number of hydrogen ions in a
solution. Low pH means high H+ concentration and high pH low (there is a
reason for this). Neutral is defined in terms of water whose pH is 7. If
you measured the pH of a wine sample with a meter you'd find the pH
quite low (3? - I never drink wine) and as the NaOH is added during the
titration you'd see it go up. The "end point" of the titration is when
all the excess (over the number found in pure water) hydrogen ions have
combined with OH- ions from the lye to form water. At this point the pH
would be 7 and the acid would be said to be neutralized. Phenolpthalein
has the property that it turns red at a pH of about 8.2. It is, thus,
used in place of the pH meter (and as a laxative). It requires you to go
a little past neutrality to get the color change but not very far so
that the results are not very different from those that would be
obtained with a pH meter titrating to true neutrality. In any event, the
formal definition of total acidity is by titration to the phenolpthalein
end point. If you use a pH meter instead of the indicator you would
titrate to pH 8.2, not true neutrality (pH 7). As an aside, alkalinity
of brewing water is defined in terms of a titration with acid to pH 4.3.
As phenolpthalein is only a pH indicator the proper amount to use is
just that amount that lets you see the color change easily.

- --
A. J. deLange
Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.




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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:05:32 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Ice Beer

Can't agree with Eric Lande's asessment of ice beer. Ice beer is beer
brewed by a patented process in which the fermented wort is brought to
cold enough temperature that a bit of slush begins to form. This is
removed thus pulling out some condensend polyphenols and some water. The
beer is thus slightly more alcoholic and smoother. Have the patent in
this clutter somewhere and will look for it if anyone is interested.

- --
A. J. deLange
Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.




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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:22:10 -0500
From: David Sweeney <David at stulife2.tamu.edu>
Subject: RE: Reynolds ... peristatlic pumps etc./shear calc needed

Hey Guys!

Let's just brew beer.

David Sweeney
Texas A&M University
David at stulife2.tamu.edu <mailto:David at stulife2.tamu.edu> 
- --I'm learning big things
- --David's 3 year old daughter



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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:42:15 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: [Fwd: ice brewing]

A stronger version of bock called "Eisbock" was/is made in
Germany by chilling the beer down to a slush and pulling off the
ice crystals.  Since alcohol freezes at a colder temperature than
does water, a resulting increase in alcohol content (and
corresponding decrease in overall volume) occurs.  You can find
more detailed information about this in "Bock" by Darrel
Richman.  There is a brewery in Canada, Niagara Falls Brewing
(methinks), that still does this process once a year.

Anecdotally, I've heard that the hella-megabreweries DO chill the
beer down and skim off the ice...only to replace it with the same
volume of water prior to packaging thus keeping the alcohol
content and taste the same before and after the ice process.
This process does shorten the lagering time somewhat (perhaps
enough to be worth the extra processing cost?) as it's the most
effective way to clear the beer (helps protein settle
quicker??).  Does it qualify as "Ice Brewed"?  Well,
Merriam-Webster says of brewing...

Main Entry: brew
Pronunciation: bru
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English brEowan; akin to
Latin fervEre to boil -- more at BARM
Date: before 12th century
transitive senses
1 : to prepare (as beer or ale) by steeping, boiling, and
fermentation or by infusion and fermentation
2 a : to bring about : FOMENT <brew trouble> b : CONTRIVE
3 : to prepare (as tea) by infusion in hot water
intransitive senses
1 : to brew beer or ale
2 : to be in the process of forming <a storm is brewing>


You could stretch English and say that it qualifies under the
second intransitive definition, but seems to me that "brewing"
traditionally has something to do with hot water.  An oxymoron at
best, brewing trouble at worst.  ;-)

Cheers!
Marc


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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:44:20 -0500
From: David Sweeney <David at stulife2.tamu.edu>
Subject: DeClerk

Can some give this newbie bibliographic information on the book(s) by
DeClerk?

David Sweeney
Texas A&M University
David at stulife2.tamu.edu <mailto:David at stulife2.tamu.edu> 
- --I'm learning big things
- --David's 3 year old daughter



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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:52:53 -0500
From: David Sweeney <David at stulife2.tamu.edu>
Subject: Ice Beer

I don't remember where I read this, but there is a technique to making "ice
beer."  Although Eric is correct that it is not a type per se.  The
technique involves high gravity lagers which are lagered below freezing.
Over time, a layer of ice will form at the top of the fermenter.  This
(water) is removed, thus increasing the gravity of the beer.

David Sweeney
Texas A&M University
David at stulife2.tamu.edu <mailto:David at stulife2.tamu.edu> 
- --I'm learning big things
- --David's 3 year old daughter



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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:26:25 -0600
From: Bob Devine <bob.devine at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Mega brew terms

Darren Robey wrote:
> There is a mega brewed low alcohol beer here in Australia that uses as a
> marketing term "Ultra High Gravity Brewed"  and I thought WOW and bowed to
> it in amazement for since its brewed like this it must taste great!
> Ice brewed? I dont know, but marketing terms dont have to mean much at all.

Sleazoid marketing of beer is not new and it will be interesting
to see what new twisted phrases emerge in the coming years (how
about 

Other folks will probably tell what "ice brewed" is (deeply chilled
to precipitate out some smaller proteins due to filtering when slushy).

High gravity brewing is a common technique among the majors because
it yields more taste, but more importantly, it saves enormously on
equipment capacity costs.  After brewing a high-gravity beer, it is
thinned down with water at packaging time.

Bob Devine


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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:37:42 -0400
From: "Milito, Steve" <milito at radonc.musc.edu>
Subject: Re: Mash Mixer

Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 19:10:22 -0700
From: "Dana H. Edgell" <edgell at far-tech.com>
Subject: Mash Mixer

I have an ice-cream motor and a fan blade that I am attempting to use as a
mash-mixer. The problem is that the motor goes clockwise and the fan blade
is counter-clockwise which results in the mash being pulled up from the
bottom by the mixer. 

I don't think it really matters which way the mash circulates, as long as
the mixing is througough and gentle. AC motors are not reversible. I can
thing of too methods of reversing direction with you setup. You can use
gears instead of pulleys to transfer the energy, or you can try running the
pulley with a twist in it (so it looks like an 8).

SM



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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:28:52 -0500
From: "bermingham" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: Brewing weather

Wow! after 26 straight days of 100 + degree weather, the forecast for today
if 98 degrees.  Now that Fall has arrived in West Texas it's time to put on
the old wet  T-shirt and fire up the burners on the brewery.  Brew season is
here at last.  All I need now is a Yankee basement.

Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX
"In wine there is wisdom,
in beer there is strength,
in water there is bacteria"  German Proverb



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Date: 23 Aug 1999 11:08:51 -0400
From: RCAYOT at solutia.com
Subject: Dry Hopping and NEW Topic YEAST!

     Chaley Burns asks:
     "I've been aging this barleywine with an ounce of whole cascade on top 
     for about a month now. Question is, at what point in time does it make 
     sense to replace the hops with fresh ones? Assuming I want more and 
     more hop aroma, at what point will all or nearly all of the aroma be 
     extracted from the hops? 1 month? 2,3,??"
     
     I usually think about this in the inverted sense, that is how long 
     must I keep the hops in to get any flavor?  I think 1 week is barely 
     minimal, two weeks seems to work okay, thre eor more is wonderful, I 
     love the hop aroma from dry hopping.  I would think that your one 
     oounce is done, if there isn't enough hop aroma, flavor, then add 
     more, you probably could have gotten more by adding more at the 
     beginning, no need to go in steps.  I also find that par-boiling hops 
     - one or so ounces of hops one half cup or so water, bring to a boil 
     covered, and transfer the whole thing to the carboy.  I think I get a 
     little less grassy flavor using this technique, but more importantly, 
     I think the effect is more rapid.
     
     On to a new topic, how about Yeast!  I would like to hear from people 
     about the yeast they use, and the characteristics of the yeast, 
     especially Ale yeast.  I know thatt many people use Wyeast 1056, and I 
     have too, but I really like some yeast character in my beer and 1056 
     is a little too clean for my taste.  I have used Brewers Resources (no 
     affil., yadda yadda) American Micro Ale #2 for some time, and I like 
     it's fruity character, it also has very subtle diacetyl, although I am 
     becoming so sensitive to diacetyl I am thinking about moving away from 
     this yeast.  Also, I would like to get some idea about yeast 
     characteristics that don't necessarily come up in the promotional 
     info.  For instance this yeast throws up a really thick rocky head of 
     yeast, a true top fermenter, makes for easy harvesting.  Are there any 
     other fruity yeasts out there that are also top fermenting?  Anyone 
     try the "Ringwood" yeast?  What does it compare to?  Is it available 
     to homebrewers?
     
     Oh one more thing, a comment on the yeast lifetime discussion.  I 
     think I recalled something more like 6-8 buds as being more typical 
     for a limit.  In the information given that suggested 40 buds, was 
     that in lab conditions with unlimited nutrients?  I suspect that 
     because critical cell wall components (sterol synthesis) are made with 
     oxygen present, that there just won't be enough cell wall to go around 
     for 40 generations.  Another way of looking at it is:  A broken leg 
     may not be considered terminal, unless you have to chase down your 
     dinner!  
     
     Roger Ayotte  



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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:41:12 -0700
From: "Timmons, Frank" <Frank.Timmons at AlliedSignal.com>
Subject: Re: Mash Mixer/Evaporative cooling

	Dana Edgell asks about reversing an ice cream mixer motor. Sorry,
but on a small motor like the ice cream mixer motor, there is no way to
reverse the rotation. Most single phase AC motors don't work that way. Some
larger motors have dual windings, with a little panel allowing access to
switch leads to the windings, but I doubt yours does. I would not advise
trying to bend the fan blades, either. Fans are almost impossible to get in
balance once the blades are bent. 

	One of the best hints I ever got on cooling carboys in the summer
was to use a Bundt-type cake pan (the ones with the hole in the middle) fill
it with water and freeze it. remove it from the pan and set it on the neck
of the carboy, and freeze another one. I go through one ring every 24 hours.
the cold water runs down on a T-shirt, keeping it wet. Works great for me.


Frank Timmons
James River Homebrewers
Richmond, Va.




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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:27:56 -0700
From: "Scott Church" <schurch at gte.net>
Subject: Attenuation Control

Howdy all;

A thought that has been scrambling around in my head for a while.(and has
plagued me now and then).......Controlling Fermentation

I have had a few beer come out with much lower gravities than I would have
liked.
I'm not sure if this has been due to the "higher" temps that I ferment
at(about 72F)/
wild yeast(fermenting all those "hard-to-fermentables")/or just letting it
go too long.

I thought that I had read somewhere that you could control the attenuation
with temp. and
pressure.(CO2)

I tend to prefer my beers to have a nice FG instead of sporting the
consistency of water!

How to avoid this?:   should I just stop the Primary fairly early?(what
about gauging the secondary?)
                        :What about beers that I plan to "lager" for some
time?(should this stage start "early"?....should I use any priming sugar?

AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!

 ...........Just a guy looking for a nice body!

Scott






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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:30:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: John Wilkinson <John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com>
Subject: RE: Is hops our obsession?

Rod Prather wrote:

>A few friends and I were talking about hops and it's relationship to
>cannabis.  With the recent news that the actual addictive site of THC is in
>the short term memory, we were wondering if there might be an addictive
>compound in hops.  Has anyone read anything about this.

I have read something about it but I can't remember where.

John Wilkinson - forgetful in Grapevine, Texas


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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:32:34 -0400
From: Mark Dalton <mdalton at ndr.com>
Subject: Adding two kinds of hops at same time

I recently had the pleasure to take a tour of the Summit Brewing 
Company in St. Paul, Minnesota.  Luckily, the assistant brewer 
was also a old time friend of mine, and I managed to get some
information out of him on the recipe for their most excellent
Extra Pale Ale.  Here is what I could get out of him:

during a 90 minute boil we have:
at 30 minutes a charge of Eroica and Fuggle
at 70 minutes a charge of Fuggle and Cascade
at 80 minutes a charge of Cascade

First of all, I've never seen additions of two different kinds
of hops at the same time.  Anyone have any info or experience on
this?  Second, Eroica hops are not all that prevalent in the 
recipes I've seen.  Anyone tried 'em?

Unfortunately, he wouldn't reveal the yeast strain.  He rather
cryptically said that the "secret to our beer is the yeast".  
Does anyone know what strain they use?  I'll probably go with
Wyeast 1056 for the first attempt, but it would be nice to use
the real deal.  Any information or recipes on Summit's Extra
Pale Ale would be appreciated.

Mark Dalton
Red Tide Brewery
Sarasota, FL


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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:09:49 -0500
From: "Christopher Farley" <chris at northernbrewer.com>
Subject: Acid titration

Jack Schmidling asks about acid testing kits:

With a winemaking acid test kit you are performing a simple titration. The
phenolphthalein is an indicator solution. It changes color at about pH 7, and
it makes a great indicator solution. (It is also an extremely powerful
laxative -- an old Chem prof described heinous practical jokes involving
surreptitious additions to coffee.) The concentration of phenolphthalein
should not make a huge difference; 3 drops should provide a high enough
concentration for you to see a color change.

When you are doing a titration, you are neutralizing all the acid in a sample.
By carefully measuring the amount of the sample, and the amount and
concentration of the neutralizer (1/5 normal NaOH), you can calculate the
total acidity of the sample. This requires that you have a fairly accurate
means of measuring volume (a syringe should be sufficient), and NaOH of known
concentration. In my experience, the biggest cause of bad acid readings is
people using an old vial of NaOH, because the concentration will change over
time.

Winemakers may add distilled water to a red wine prior to measurement because
the pigment of the juice can make it very difficult to see the color change.
Diluting a sample with distilled water will not affect the total acidity of
the sample! Remember, you are neutralizing all the acid in the sample by
reacting it with NaOH. The total acid of the sample remains unchanged even
with added distilled water.

I can't say why your cheesemaking kit calls for a lesser volume of milk. The
acid testing kits we sell express the results in % tartaric acid. If you read
British winemaking kits, they express acidity as % sulfuric acid. They use
this standard even though sulfuric acid is not a normal constituent of wine,
and should never be added to it. You might want to check your cheesemaking
acid tester to determine which acid the results are expressed in.

Christopher Farley
Northern Brewer, Ltd.
Saint Paul, Minnesota
www.northernbrewer.com
(800) 681-2739




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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:30:13 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: one more fermented item - Sauerkraut


Hey,  anyone out there making Sauerkraut?  If interested, mail me.
My wife's grandfather showed me how to make it, and a friend and I just put
down a batch 2 weeks ago.

YUMMY!

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration	613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks		All opinions expressed are my own



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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 13:34:26 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: procedures of the megas ... just ask


Hi folks,

Anyone who wants it right from the horse's mouth (re: Ice Beer or anything
else for
that matter) should go to the Molson website and seek out the "Ask the
Brewmaster"
page.  In the past I've had quite a few questions answered in excruciating
detail.
It helps if you point out in your question that you are an advanced brewer
well
versed in all-grain techniques and yadda, yadda, yadda.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration	613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks		All opinions expressed are my own



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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:37:08 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: licorice 

My recollection (from where?) is that brewers licorice is used as a
fining agent.  Does anyone else remember reading this?

=Spencer


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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:51:03 -0600
From: Matt Dickson <stuka at mindspring.com>
Subject: Homebrew Shops in the Metro Denver Region

Matthew,

I'm in Westminster, too. The Homebrew Hut is about 5 minutes or so away.
Head north on Wadsworth past the JeffCo Airport and the Boulder Turnpike
interchange (36).  You'll wind up getting just into Broomfield (the Field
of Brooms, heehee). There's a stoplight at Midway (I'm pretty sure it's
Midway, it starts with an M, anyway), with a gas station/convenience store
on the left. Take a left there.  Take the first little street to the right.
Go down a block or so, there will be a small motorcycle dealership (mostly
dirt bikes) on your right, and if you're me, you'll always turn into their
parking lot by mistake....there's a row of shops just past the cycle shop
on the right. Hombrew Hut is next to the Subway in that row of shops.

Prosit,
The Other Matthew in Westminster 




- ------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 15:27:19 -0600
From: "J. Matthew Saunders" <matthew-saunders at uswest.net>
Subject: Homebrew Shops in the Metro Denver Region.

Dear Collective,

My wife and I recently moved to Westminster (I work in downtown Denver).
Now that our apartment is starting to look more like a home and less like a
warehouse full of boxes, the time has come to find a homebrew shop.  Any
suggestions?

Cheers!
Matthew in Westminster CO.





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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:53:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil (Jeff)
Subject: re: ice brewing


Hi All,

  Recent discussion has brought up ice brewing.

  Pat Babcock pretty much hit the nail on the head with:

>T'was a friend whose father worked for A-B that told me it simply
>was a means to reduce the "lagering cycle". The explanation was that by
>"slushing" the beer, they expected that it would take much less time to
>complete the lagering of the beer.

  Labatt actually patented the process of "ice brewing".  In the text
of the patent they claim that the formation of the ice crystals is
a way to speed up the lagering process because the ice crystals form
around "impurities" and then get filtered out.

>The slight increase in alcohol was, to them, but a bonus.

  Actually, to avoid problems with the BATF the volume of ice crystals
removed must be made back up with water (to within +/- 0.5% of the
original volume).

                                                Hoppy brewing,

                                                Jeff

==========================================================================

Geoffrey A. McNally                  Phone:  (401) 832-1390
Mechanical Engineer                  Fax:    (401) 832-7250
Naval Undersea Warfare Center        email:
Systems Development Branch              mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil
Code 8321; Bldg. 1246/2              WWW:
Newport, RI  02841-1708                 http://www.nuwc.navy.mil/


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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 15:41:09 -0400
From: Eric R Lande <landeservices at juno.com>
Subject: Doing the Clinton Back Track

An apology is in order to the collective and to Steven Sanders who asked
in HBD #3116 about the process of Ice Brewing.  I was called to the mat
on my reply by Nathan Kanous.  My assertion was that there really was no
such thing as "Ice Brewed" and that is was a marketing gimmick.  I was
actually thinking of the Coors Lite ad calling their process "Frost
Brewed".

There are, of course, "Ice Beers" (Bud Ice, Molson Ice, Labbat Ice, etc.)
circa early to mid 1990's.  This is a technique that I believe originated
in Germany with the first ice beer being an EisBock.  Basically, the
process takes the beer down to a temperature where the water in the beer
freezes and the ice crystals are removed thus leaving a more potent and,
arguably, smoother beer.  I had an EisBock about a year or so ago and I
thought that I should have been drinking it from a shot glass.

Steven I don't know which process you were actually looking for, but here
are both.  Happy Brewing.


Eric Lande
Brewery to be named when I finish it
Doylestown, PA


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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 15:23:20 -0700
From: "Dana H. Edgell" <edgell at far-tech.com>
Subject: Ice Brew


The explanation I heard for ice beer/ice brewed is that after high gravity
brewing the beer is chilled until ice crystals start to form. These crystal
alledgedly form around complex molecules in the beer (like nucleation sites
for bubbles). These molecules are then filtered out with the ice crystals.
This is supposed to create a smoother tasting (blander) beer by removing
the molecules (taste, body, ibus anything that might make the beer good).

While the removal of the ice does make the high gravity beer a little
stronger, the final alcohol level of the beer is determined as always by
how much water is added to the beer at bottling. Idea that the ice removal
makes "ice beer" stronger is marketing bs.

Dana

- --------------------------------------------------------
Dana Edgell
Staff Scientist               mailto:edgell at far-tech.com
FARTECH, Inc.                 (858) 455-6655
5820 Miramar Rd., Suite 211   (858) 450-9741 fax
San Diego, CA  92121




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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 20:41:45 -0400
From: "Thomas O'Connor" <toconnor at nehealth.org>
Subject: sanitizing/cleaning counterflow wort chillers


Greetings from Mid-Coast Maine!

I pose... a question... to you, O all-knowing Oracle of Cyberspace...

I use a counterflow wort chiller (CWC) and love it.  Here in Maine, ever 
in the "heat" of summer, my well water is always ice-cold (almost) and 
chills my wort to frigidity as fast as it'll flow through.

The question is... how the hell do you clean the damn thing?  I've sifted 
through my books and mags (Z and BT's) and haven't found an authoritative 
recommendation on how best to do it.  I've used the  chiller for years, 
actually, and have lived in less-than-blissful ignorance by running 5 gals 
of boiling H2O through in before and after using it.  This has served me 
pretty well, as rarely does a batch end up funked, and then I cannot say 
that it wasn't from some other source (faulty yeast starter, long lag 
time, carboy contamination, etc.)  I must admit I've dabbled with running 
through some of the same boiling water with a few droppersful of phosphoric
 acid (reagent grade) or some unknown powerful alkali powder a friend gave 
me in it (some hydroxide of one sort or another), but obviously I don't 
know what I'm doing.  The tubing is, of course, copper.   My 
well-intentioned efforts and the fact that my beers taste good have given me no 
comfort...as GOD only knows what's growing inside that thing.

So, my HBD colleagues, what'd you recommend as THE right 
cleaner/sanitizer??  MANY THANKS

P.S. Oh, by the way, let me announce to alll the 8th Annual Northern New 
England Regional Homebrew Competition being held in Rockport, Maine on 
Sat. September 25th.  We're using all of the BJCP categories of beer and 
cider.   Please e-mail a request for entry info if you're interested.  


Thomas J. O'Connor, III M.D. (Tom)
toconnor at nehealth.org 


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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:00:37 -0500
From: "Michael Josephson" <mjj at bitstream.net>
Subject: Licorice beer

I make a historically inclined porter that usually has a mild licorice
flavor (if drunk at the correct temp). Here are the particulars:

Big Butt Ale
Batch Size: 5.5 gallons

Grain Bill
10.5 lb   UK pale ale
1.5 lb    UK Medium Crystal
12 oz     UK Chocolate
4 oz      UK  Black malt

Yeast
British Ale (White Labs WLP005)

Hop Schedule
2 oz Target (8.8% AA)  at  60 minutes.

Other
1 t Irish Moss  at  15 minutes

Water Treatment
Boil 10.75 gallons of water for 20 minutes.
Add .5 t of lactic acid to 7 gallons sparge water.

Procedure
Mash-in to 153F with 15 quarts of liquor at 168F
Hold mash temp for 90 minutes.
Mash-out 10 minutes at 168F.
Sparge with liquor at 168F, yielding 7 gallons of wort in kettle.
Boil for 90 minutes.

Fermentation
Pitched 1 cup of yeast slurry (from previous batch) at 68F.
Primary:   3 days at 68F.
Secondary: 7 days at 65F.
          25 days at 56F.

Packaging
Bottled with  2.75 oz of corn sugar.

Notes
Hit 151F mash-in temp w/ 170F mash liquor.
      at  30 min. - 154F
      at  60 min. - 148F. Raise to 152F over 5 min.

Gravity readings of sparge:
 at    0 min. 1.092
 at  30 min. 1.048
 at  60 min. 1.025
Total sparge time 74 minutes.
Collected 7 gallons of 1.047 wort.
Potential Extract = 72%.

Volume in fermentor = 6 gallons.

Gravity at pitching  = 1.055 (13.5P) - 2/13/99
Gravity at secondary =
Gravity at bottling  = 1.016 (4.1P)  - 3/22//99
Alcohol              = 5.2% ABV

- --Michael Josephson
Minneapolis, MN



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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:02:27 PDT
From: "Dic Gleason" <dicgleason at hotmail.com>
Subject: Homebrewing and Biological Weapons

Greetings,

I am a homebrewer located in Korea with the US Army. Yesterday while 
watching the military TV station an interview with MG John C. Doesburg
Commanding General, Soldier and Biological Chemical Command was shown. The 
General made a comparison between home brewing and the production of 
biological weapons. The General made the statement that anyone that 
homebrews is able to produce biological weapons. This shines a new light on 
the Art vs. Science discussion now going on. Are we home brewers or 
potential terrorists?

Dic Gleason
Tae'Baek Mountian Brewery
Uijongbu,
So. Korea


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com


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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 22:13:17 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Ice beer

Brewers

Did anyone at the MCAB conference in Houston in February take notes on
George Fix's excellent talk on ice brewing?  I didn't, much to my regret.
I figured it would be in his new book, but that has apparently been held up
by his more.  Or maybe not.  But now I've forgotten much of the specifics.

Anyway, ice brewing is a real thing, according to George.  It, as I recall,
reduces lagering time and increases stability by removing certain size
proteins, and, I think, some maltiness, but this last is a real QDA.  I
also recall that it is not used to increase alcohol content.  There is a
very small amount of ice actually produced in the commercial procedure.  It
seems that this is a procedure that is easily adapted to amateur scale.  I
was convinced enough of the advantages that I intended to use it.

Anyone?

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943.




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Date: Mon, 23 Aug 99 23:19:40 PDT
From: "George De Piro" <gdepiro at fcc.net>
Subject: speedy maturation / ice beer / licorice

Hi all,

There are many factors that effect beer maturation, and
I do not understand them all that well.  I have posted
in the past about stuff Kunze and others have written on this topic,
so searching the archives could be useful.

At the brewpub, we have a need to get beer into condition quickly
(to keep up with demand).  I have found that one way to get beer
to taste "done" quickly is to follow brewing practices that produce
good tasting young beer.  The better the young beer tastes,
the less time it needs to age to become sellable.

The following practices are all pretty obvious:
Yeast selection and management are big factors.  The gravity
of the beer and other aspcets of the recipe will also effect how
quickly it comes into condition.

Pitching an adequate (or close to it) amount of healthy yeast
is of paramount importance.  Excessive yeast growth will lead
to excessive higher alcohol production.  These taste fruity, harsh,
and solvent-like.  They take a relatively long while to age out.
Avoiding them in the first place is desirable.

Providing adequate oxygen for the yeast at pitching time is a big
part of getting a healthy, fast fermentation.  If you can get the
primary fermentation done in 4 days instead of 10, you now get
6 days of maturation without costing you extra time.

Choosing the right yeast for your needs is another big factor.
If you use a yeast that is a big sulphur producer (and yet
don't want a lot of sulphur in your beer), it will take much
longer to mature than if you used a low-sulphur strain.

Lower gravity beers generally come into condition more quickly
than higher gravity beers, and certain styles, such as Bavarian
wheats, are drinkable at a very youthful age (the one I serve at the
brewpub takes about 10 days from brewing to serving, and is peaking
about 1-2 weeks after that, at which point it usually kicks and I start
over again).

Highly-hopped beers can take a while to smooth out, and if you
are planning on dry-hopping you are adding 1-3 weeks to your maturation
schedule.  Most homebrewers don't have a problem with this, but if
you were hoping to have a beer ready for a party two weeks from now,
IPA may not be your best choice.

As far as fermentation schedules go, keeping the temperatures as low as
reasonable for the yeast you use will help produce a cleaner beer that
requires less maturation time.  My ales typically get pitched at about 
60F,
then ferment at ~64-66F, sit for a day or two at ~60F and then get 
chilled
by 5F per day until they hit 35F or so.  So far, the beers are almost 
maturing
fast enough.  If anybody out there has some other ideas, please share 
them!
- -------------------------------------------------
Ice beer:
I was surprised that nobody has yet mentioned the late Reichelbraeu 
Eisbock
during the discussion about ice beers.  Reichelbraeu was frozen and the 
ice
removed to produce a very malty, alcoholic beer.  Other beers, like EKU 
28,
are also frozen during production, but only to remove proteins
(according to M. Jackson).  Some, like the mega ice beers, are frozen and
concentrated but then diluted back to their "normal" strength.
I guess this will remove some proteins, but it does seem like more of a
marketing gimmick (since there is so little to remove from Bud to begin 
with).
Molsen XXX is an ice beer that is left concentrated, and tastes fairly 
gross
because of it (very high esters and higher alcohols, but an extremely 
light
body and flavor, other than the esters).
- --------------------------------------
There has been some discusion about the presence (or lack thereof) in Old
Peculier.  AJ cites a drinking session in which he easily discerned a 
licorice
taste in the beer while some of his drinking buddies did not.  Ethyl 
hexanoate
can be the answer!

Ethyl hexaoate, an ester, is perceived by some as licorice (that's how 
I taste it),
but is found to be more like apples by others.  This explains several of 
the
points in recent posts:

1.  Only some people taste it.
2.  The brewery denies the licorice addition.

Fermentation conditions and yeast strain will greatly effect the level 
of ethyl
hexanoate found in the beer.  Granted, it does seem to be relatively rare
 (I have
only tasted it once in years of homebrew judging), but it could be what's
 going
on in OP.

Have fun!

George de Piro

C.H. Evans Brewing Co. at the
Albany (NY) Pump Station
(518) 447-9000

Malted Barley Appreciation Society
"Brooklyn's Best Homebrew Club"
http://hbd.org/mbas


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---