---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Demise of BT (John_E_Schnupp)
  re: 3 gallon kegs... (John_E_Schnupp)
  Bitter taste (Steve Lacey)
  RE: Bitter taste (Miguel de Salas)
  FW: Scottish Ales ("Campbell, Paul R SSI-TSEA-A")
  Brewing Techniques ("Luke Van Santen")
  RE: Temp control of the fermenters ("John Stegenga")
  Condensers/Iodophor/BLC (AJ)
  Re: Bitter taste (Jeff Renner)
  using pumpkin ("Alan McKay")
  Breaking Glass ("Jeff Beinhaur")
  BT "replacement" (Pat Babcock)
  Re: Grain to extract, bitter taste ("Charles T. Major")
  When Does Your Club Meet? (Mark_Ohrstrom/Humphrey_Products)
  Wheat Malt in Ales ("Campbell, Paul R SSI-TSEA-A")
  saving iodophor ("Eric R. Theiner")
  Chillin' ("Paul Niebergall")
  Septic Brew ("Paul Niebergall")
  beer line cleaner contents ("Bayer, Mark A")
  Re: Demise of BT ("Stephen Alexander")
  BT,searching, copper, iodophor (jliddil)
  Brave New Brewery - question #2 ("Stephen Alexander")
  Punpkin Beer (Brad Miller)
  Hallapeno Jeffeweize & moldy extract (Jeff Hall)
  Copper Cleaning and Bulkheads (Brad Miller)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 23:21:26 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: Demise of BT

AJ says,
>What's forming in the back of my mind is that
>we need to come up with some sort of samizdat replacement for BT,
>perhaps in paper, perhaps in electronic form. A newsletter sort of thing
>perhaps. Maybe no one cares, or at least not enough to generate the
>advertizing to support a commercial publication, but I know there are

I'm also saddened by the demise of BT.  It would be great if somehow
something could take it's place.  I don't have any great ideas.
Certainly publishing a magazine is a lot of work and money.  It could
possibly be done thru a website but that would also cost.  The biggest
cost to get something going, IMO, would be finding the people who were
willing to sacrifice a bunch of their time.  I'm sorry to see BT go and
I probably won't be likely to subscribe to any of the other mags.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Dirty Laundry Brewery
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 23:27:42 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: 3 gallon kegs...

John,

>Does anyone know of a good source for 3 gallon kegs? I'm trying to find
>something that I can fit in my fridge. The lowest price I've seen to far
>(used) is $35. Let me know...

Man you just missed it.  I too, use 3 gallon kegs for lots of reasons.
My fridge hold 4 and I had 6.  I sold 2 of them for $40.  I very
rarely had more than 4 keg full at one time and I don't recall ever
having all 6 full at one time.

Good luck with your search.  I do know that Williams Brewing sells
brand new ones, but at $89 (I think) they are on the expensive side.
I really don't think you're going to find them for much less than $35,
unless you are lucky.  Sometimes the used ones are not as much of a deal
as it seems.  Especially if you have to spend a bunch of money replacing
parts.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Dirty Laundry Brewery
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 16:30:40 +1000
From: Steve Lacey <stevel at sf.nsw.gov.au>
Subject: Bitter taste

Daryl in SA is discovering the wonders of using real hops.
"I used 40g pride of ringwood boiling and 20g hallertau finishing and the
sample had a distinct bitter aftertaste."

POR is a high alpha hop usually ~10.5%. 40 g of this at a 60-90 min boil
will give you a reasonably bitter beer. I havn't got any charts or
calculators with me at present but you would probably be looking, at a rough
guess, at around 40-50 IBUs?? Anyway, reasonably bitter compared to your
average kit beer. You will also find that the harsh bitterness will subside
with fermentation and conditioning.

As a relative newbie myself, I found that it was really important when
leaping from kit brewing to full boils (unhopped extract or mash) to learn
about IBU's and to get hold of a chart or brewing program to calculate them.
The local brew shop or internet should be able to help with this.

Keep at it.

Steve Lacey


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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 17:50:41 +1000
From: Miguel de Salas <mm_de at postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: RE: Bitter taste

Darryl,

Pride of ringwood hops can be much more bitter than is generally known.
Here in Tassie, the '95 harvest of PoR from Bushy Park Estates reached 14%
AA. Last two seasons have been even better climate wise, so AA yields might
also have been very high.

40g of PoR at anything higher than its lower AA level of 7-9% in an
'average' sample would probably make your beer very bitter.
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Miguel de Salas

School of Plant Science,
University of Tasmania,
PO Box 252-55, Sandy Bay, Hobart
Tasmania, Australia, 7001.

Dept home-page:
http://www.utas.edu.au/docs/plant_science/

My Homepage:
http://www.southcom.com.au/~miguel/


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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 12:07:15 +0200
From: "Campbell, Paul R SSI-TSEA-A" <Paul.R.Campbell at is.shell.com>
Subject: FW: Scottish Ales

>It's my impression that only the distilleries in the north(?) used
>peat, while in the south they used coals or wood or somesuch.  This is
>what leads to the peat-smoked scotch being more prevalent in the
>north.  Is this somehwat accurate?

 -SM-

Yes this is true - the peat comes from the marshy ground where heather
and fern are prevalent (amongst other plant life, I'm no botanist!).
The north of Scotland is sparsly populated for this reason, as much of
the land is pretty useless (except perhaps for sheep farming :^# ). I've
had an ongoing discussion with Rod, as he had an interesting contact who
asserted that "beer was not brewed in the highlands". This would tend to
indicate that such malted barley would not have found its way into beer.
We have come to the consensus that this probably refers to "modern"
beer/ale and that non-hopped ales would probably have been brewed (e.g.
heather ale) in the north. The majority of modern Scottish breweries were
(circa 1950s-1960s) still based around the southern cities, particularly
Edinburgh. There are now more and more indepedent breweries developing
across the country as the demand for cask conditioned and bottled 'Real
Ale' has grown, extending as far north as Orkney and Shetland. These
breweries obtain their malt from centralised producers, as do most
distilleries.

It is true that smoked malt is not now widely (if at all) used due to the
strong flavour it imparts (as Rod pointed out). Historically in the north
of Scotland Heather ales and such would have at the very least been made
using local ground water which would be 'contaminated' with peat as well
as being boiled over a peat fire. These external factors would have had
a significant effect on the flavour of these over and above the hap-hazard
"malting" and the single infusion no-sparge mash. Very early brewing
relied on the steeped malt converting itself (inefficiently; one reference
quotes 36 pounds of grain to make 3 gallons!). Modern Scottish beer
employs English brewing techniques and is now more a variation on a theme
(different hopping levels, mash temp etc.) rather than a unique brewing
style. You have to go much further back in history to get a real
distinction IMO.

On a related note, malt whisky tends to develop a local flavour during
the long (>8 year) maturation period. Hence those distilleries located
near the sea (particularly the Islands off the west coast) have a
distinctive salty/iodine note to them. I would intuitively extend this
effect to an open fermentation in a poorly ventilated traditional Scottish
"bothy" would result in some of the peat smoke (from the fire used for
warmth and cooking) dissolving in the ale! Whether you want want to
replicate such a drink, is unlikely of course - it would probably taste
terrible to us, but I find the history interesting :^) ......

Later,
Paul Campbell 
Aberdeen

e-mail: Paul.R.Campbell at is.shell.com


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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 06:08:13 -0500
From: "Luke Van Santen" <Luke.VanSanten at dot.state.mn.us>
Subject: Brewing Techniques

Brew Folk -

I received a message from one of the contacts listed on Brewing Techniques 
web site saying that Brewing Techniques has ceased publication due to lack 
of revenue. Sounds like they kept trying right until the end and that they 
are trying to make it right by their subscribers.

Now we will see how serious the AHA is - can they step up and fill this 
gap?

Luke Van Santen
St. Louis Park, MN


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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 07:23:37 -0400
From: "John Stegenga" <bigjohns at mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Temp control of the fermenters

In HBD 3123:
>Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 10:52:19 PDT
>From: "Gradh O'Dunadaig" <odunadaig at hotmail.com>
>Subject: yeast and heat
>
>hi kids,
>
>i've got two pale ales sitting in their secondaries, one using white labs
>german ale and one using wyeast american ale. the temps here have been well
>over 100F and i have no way to cool down my brews. i am curious as to what
>kind of bizarrities i can expect from these brews. i racked one last night
>and the temp of the juice was 78F.
>
>thanks

To answer your question directly, I'd say the beers will be a bit fruitier -
a la English bitters, etc., than you had planned for.  On a side note, the
blue ribbon winning ESB that I made was fermented in the low 70's and
secondaried in an uncontrolled environment where the room was running almost
80...

I have since taken to a little bit of caveman cooling.  I use 2 48qt coleman
chest coolers.  I've removed the lids, and I put the carboy in there and
fill it to within 4 inches of the top with cold water.  Then I drop in
frozen liter bottles of water as necessary to keep the temp down.  I've
gotten the little stickon fermentation thermometer down to 60 this way.  I
use a heavy extralarge cotton towel folded over and draped like a kings cape
around the neck to keep out the light and keep in the cool - the towel is
not in the water, it's a cover for the whole mess.

How did the beer taste when you racked it, by the way?

John
Bigjohn's Basement Brewery
Woodstock, GA, USA





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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 12:59:02 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Condensers/Iodophor/BLC

Matt Smiley reminisced about the use of glass condensers in chemistry
classes in days of yore and suggests that they might serve as heat
exchangers for wort cooling. Indeed  condensers of this sort (at least
the common West, Alihn etc. types) are heat exchangers but I don't think
they are the best choices for wort chilling. For starters, the total
length of these condensers is short relative to what we need for cooling
any reasonable volume of wort. The amount of wort which can be cooled to
a particular temperature with a particular chiller and water supply is
directly (linearly) proportional to the length of the chiller. A long
laboratory chiller has a half meter or so long jacket and costs a little
over a hundred dollars. For somewhat less than this you can buy  a
chiller like the one sold by Hearts with a substantially longer jacket
(and better heat transfer properties to boot).

Second, the lab condensers are so called because they are designed to
condense i.e. a large volume of vapor comes into contact with a large
cold surface area to produces a small amount of liquid. Glass is a fine
material for this because the liquid flow is so small (typically 1 drop
per second). In wort chilling orders of magntude more liquid flows
through the central tube and so orders of magnitude more heat must flow
through the glass. Glass isn't a very good conductor and so the chilling
performance per unit length would be a lot poorer than with a metal tube
of the same dimenstions. The larger diameter of the inner tube will also
be a problem since at any reasonable flow rate the flow will be laminar
and lots of turbulence is wanted to chill the entire volume of wort.

Third, believe it or not, you may be in violation of your state's laws
merely by posessing such a device and for this reason, suppliers may be
reluctant to sell one to you.

Fourth,  one slip and your'e out a chiller!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Matthew in CO. asks about storing iodophor solution in a Corny keg.
Sealed it should last indefinitely. What seems to get iodophor is
exposure to air (oxygen oxidizes some of the iodine and more simply
volatizes), exposure to other oxidizing agents (such as bleach) exposure
to reducing agents (such as Campden tablets i.e. metabite and exposure
to CO2 (still haven't figured that one out). So don't pressureize the
Corny with CO2.  Note that you may find a thin layer of iodine condensed
on the lid after storage. The general wisdom is that if it is still
colored it is still effective.

* * * * * * * * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Bob Scheck asked about BLC's composition. Not sure about that particular
one but most of these products seem to be detergent with a good dose of
potassium hydroxide and some scent.

- --
A. J. deLange
Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.




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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 09:33:57 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Bitter taste

>"Darryl Downie" <dagzy at senet.com.au> from downie under asked

>Short query from a neophyte, I tasted the wort from the hydrometer jar after
>I had boiled my last batch. I used 40g pride of ringwood boiling and 20g
>hallertau finishing and the sample had a distinct bitter aftertaste. It was
>not unpleasant but I have never had this with kits before. Does it sound
>like it is over hopped or is this just normal for boiled worts? I could not
>get the alpha acid content of the hops.

PoR runs 7.5-10% and Hallertauer 4-5.  We also would need to know how long
you boiled each (I assume the Hallertauer not very long), whether they were
whole hops or pellets (pellets give greater bitterness for the same alpha
acid), and how much wort you made and its strength (stonger wort will lower
the efficiency).

I'll assume you made 5 imperial gallons (6-1/4 US gallons)or 24 liters
(litres to you) because I think that is a typical Australian brew length.
I'll also assume it was around 1.050 or a little less and that your PoR was
pellets with an alpha acid of 8%, and that you boiled for 60 minutes, which
would give about 28% extract efficiency.  This works out to 40 IBU for the
boiling hops alone.  Yup, pretty bitter.  If you brewed up less, it would
be more bitter, of course.  If the PoR was 10%, it would be 50 IBU.  If
they were whole hops, then ~32 IBU.  You'd get a few IBUs from your
finishing hops too.  A 10 minute boil of the Hallertauer would give you
about 4 IBU more.

So my guess is that it's the hops.  You kits were probably less bittered.

BTW, I have found that the circular slide rule called Dr. Bob Technical's
Incredible Hop-go-round is a real handy way of doing these calculations
easily.  Computers are great for lots of things, but sometimes less
technology is better.  It's a sturdy plastic laminate about 8"  (20cm) in
diameter.  I paid $7.49.

Jeff

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 09:48:03 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: using pumpkin


"I plan on pasteurizing the pumkin and adding it to secondary"
Pumpkin is starch.  Adding starch to your beer is not advisable at any
stage.
I'd strongly suggest mashing the pumpkin either with grain, or with
purchased
powered enzymes.

cheers,
 -Alan


- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration	613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks		All opinions expressed are my own



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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 09:48:38 -0400
From: "Jeff Beinhaur" <beinhaur at email.msn.com>
Subject: Breaking Glass

Marty Brown reports about his unfortunate accident with a glass carboy. I
have a quick story that just happened yesterday to futher report on the
dangers of glass. I guess most brewers have had some breakage of some sort
or another but this was my first. Maybe I'm just lucky. Anyways, I had just
finished filling my HLT with 180 degree water and still had some left in the
kettle. Since I was using my new pump for the first time I decided to just
pump the leftover water into the carboys that I was planning on using.
Probably only had about 3 maybe 4 inches of water in each carboy. Put some
vinegar in them because they were previously cleaned but had some haze that
I was trying to get rid of. Now my big mistake, I proceeded to top off the
one carboy with water from my hose (yes, cold water). Another 3 to 4 inches
went in until I heard a loud pop. I couldn't see where the sound had come
from and the water was still in the carboy but I had my suspicions. I lifted
the carboy only to discover the entire bottom had broken out. The gush of
water washed tiny glass shards down the driveway. I spent much of the
afternoon trying to pick those damn pieces back up. Fortunately, I suffered
only a very tiny cut in my one finger but it could have been much worse.

So I would like to second Marty's thoughts on the need for the attention to
safety around the brew house. Marty, good luck and I hope that it wasn't
your drinking hand that got hurt.

Jeff Beinhaur, Camp Hill, PA
Home of the Yellow Breeches Brewery





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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:06:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: BT "replacement"

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

John and AJ speak...

> 
> AJ says,
> >What's forming in the back of my mind is that
> >we need to come up with some sort of samizdat replacement for BT,
> >perhaps in paper, perhaps in electronic form. A newsletter sort of thing
> >perhaps. Maybe no one cares, or at least not enough to generate the
> >advertizing to support a commercial publication, but I know there are
> 
> I'm also saddened by the demise of BT.  It would be great if somehow
> something could take it's place.  I don't have any great ideas.
> Certainly publishing a magazine is a lot of work and money.  It could
> possibly be done thru a website but that would also cost.  The biggest
> cost to get something going, IMO, would be finding the people who were
> willing to sacrifice a bunch of their time.  I'm sorry to see BT go and
> I probably won't be likely to subscribe to any of the other mags.

In this regard, I had already contacted Stephen Mallery regarding transfer
of the BT website to the HBD server for preservation. Since it is
currently hosted on the Real Beer Page, I think it is safe in the hands of
Mark Silva - he's aware, I'm sure, of its value and will likely not have a
problem in keeping the site up, but I made the offer anyway.

Per a "similar" magazine, the Digest has  already put some actions
together to provide a free, web-based magazine. As was done with BT, there
will be a technical panel created, and a "webmaster" who will work with
the panel to "publish" articles to the site. Invitations to join the
panel will be sent out to those selected shortly. Once we have the
organization in place, there will be a call for submissions.

Both those serving on the panel/production team and those submitting
articles for publication will be doing so on a voluntary basis. Copyright
will be retained jointly by the HBD and the author as done with the HBD
itself (ie, reuse by not-for-profit entities is fine as long as it never
appears in a magazine or other media available "for sale" without the
permision of the copyright holders.)
 
Any thoughts? Any volunteers for the production team? (Need strong HTML
skills, your own ISP through which to reach the HBD server, and the time
to work on projects...)

 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 09:07:11 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: "Charles T. Major" <ctmajor at samford.edu>
Subject: Re: Grain to extract, bitter taste

Darryl in Oz asks a couple of questions in today's HBD:

First, he asks for a rule of thumb to convert grain 
to extract.  In a 5-gallon batch, I get around 1.050 from 
6.6 lbs (2 kg) of malt extract syrup, and I also get around 
1.050 from 10 lbs of grain, so it appears that for the same 
gravity, use about 2/3 the amount of syrup as of grain.  
Note of course that these are very inexact numbers and will 
vary depending on extraction efficiency of the mash and 
actual volume of the boil.  My water measurements for 5 
gal. are terribly inaccurate, so I don't worry too much 
about precision in efficiency calculations.

Darryl also asks about the bitter taste of his hydrometer 
sample.  Some of the bitterness will subside during 
fermentation, and whether the brew is too bitter depends on 
the gravity of the beer.  40 g (almost 1.5 oz) will impart 
a good deal of bitterness.  The Pride of Ringwood hops I 
have are 10.3% AA, and for a normal-strength (1.040-1.050) 
brew I usually use .5 to .75 oz for bittering.  The 
finishing hops don't contribute much bittering, so don't 
worry about those.  

If the beer is high-gravity, it may be  just fine, but if 
it is nomal strength, it may be over-bittered.  Let it 
finish, taste the fermented beer before bottling, and if 
it's too bitter, consider brewing an under-bittered batch 
and blending them.

Regards,
Tidmarsh Major
Birmingham, Alabama



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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:26:57 -0400
From: Mark_Ohrstrom/Humphrey_Products at humphreypc.com
Subject: When Does Your Club Meet?

Since I travel for bidness, I often miss my homebrew club meetings (KLOB).
So I sez to myself, "Why not go to *other* club's meetings?"  I've been
trying to hook up with other HBD'ers while on the road, anyway...

So, if your club is in any of the fine states of Alabama, Arkansas,
Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Tennessee, or
Texas, please email me directly with the meeting schedule (7PM, third
Monday - or whatever) and a contact phone number (for directions).  I'll
try to make it to *your* meeting as my schedule allows.

Mark in Kalamazoo




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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 17:15:46 +0200
From: "Campbell, Paul R SSI-TSEA-A" <Paul.R.Campbell at is.shell.com>
Subject: Wheat Malt in Ales

While conversing via private e-mail on a different subject
and checking out the Caledonian Brewery web site quoted in
my earlier note http://www.caledonian-brewery.co.uk - I 
came across the ingredient listing for Caledonian 80/-.
It contains the following:

Pipkin pale ale malt,
crystal malt,
amber malt,
chocolate malt,
black malt,
wheat malt.
25-27 units of colour.
Fuggles and Goldings whole hops. 34-36 units of bitterness

This got me wondering.... for those that have used wheat
malt, what would it add if used in small quantities? I
wonder whether it may be of benefit in my Fullers ESB
clone to add body and head retention? I assume small
amounts to avoid hazy beer?

This would make the grain bill:
Pale ale malt, crystal malt, flaked maize and wheat malt.

Percentage of wheat malt to use anyone?

Any thoughts and/or speculations welcome. I was surprised
to see it mentioned (it seems to be used in many of this
breweries ales, though).

Regards,
Paul Campbell 
Aberdeen

e-mail: Paul.R.Campbell at is.shell.com


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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:46:42 -0700
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: saving iodophor

After a week of storage, I'd check the concentration of iodine with a
test strip.  They're easy to use and it's best to be safe.

Why?  Because of two things.  First the old saw about smell and color is
not true. You can have an iodine smell and color, yet only have 5 or 6
ppm iodine which isn't enough to gaurantee sanitization.  Secondly, the
stuff that holds the iodine in solution (iodine is actually a gas at
room temp and pressure) is great food for microbes, thus Pat's comment
on finding some things living in an old batch of iodophor solution.


Rick



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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:37:07 -0500
From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject:  Chillin'

Harlan writes some interesting stuff about cleaning and sanitizing 
counterflow wort chillers (CFWC).  Apparently he is having trouble 
understanding that I am not having (nor have I ever had) problems with 
cleaning and sanitizing my CFWC with nothing more that boiling water.  He 
even throws in some scientific mumbo jumbo to bolster his argument.

>3-inches out of 50-feet? Hmmm. Does not seem to me to be a
>representative sample, nor a statistically significant one either.

3 inches out of 50 feet equates to 1 percent of my copper tubing (if you 
count looking into each end).  Yes this is indeed a small sample.  But, it 
is what I can see and there is no build up.  Can you see a bigger 
percentage of my tubing from cyberspace?  I suppose that you are telling 
me that you have some kind of super beer-nazi vision that allows you to 
see through time and space into the basement of my house and into the 
remaining 99 percent of the tubing.  Is that why you are insisting that I 
am having problems when I am not?

If I see no buildup in the portion that I can inspect, why would I waste 
my time worrying about build up in the remainder of the line.  Do the 
properties of copper somehow change the deeper into the tube you go?  I 
cannot inspect the copper line for holes either (it is jacketed in garden 
hose).  Should I also suspect that the copper tubing is leaking and that I 
am getting cross contamination from the cooling water?  After all if I 
cant see it, I might as well assume that the worst is happening.

>3. Accumulating soils such as beer-stone (calcium oxalate) WILL
>eventually adhere to any smooth surface. Once this initially occurs,
>increased accumulation is not linear, it becomes exponential. It is in
>this accumulation that bacteria hide, and, what is worse, is partially
>insulated from the heat. 

This is pure speculation. Other than my boiling kettle, beer-stone is not 
occurring in my brew equipment.  I have bottles and carboys that have been 
in almost continuous use since 1986.  None of them show any signs of 
beer-stone.  The copper tubing in my CFWC is exposed to the beer much less 
frequently than the bottles and carboys.

Exponential growth of beer-stone in a counterflow chiller?  That is a new 
one on me.  Do you mean to tell me that the thickness of buildup is 
directly related e (2.718) raised to an exponent that consists of the 
product of a time factor and a logarithmic growth constant?  i.e., 

Thickness = e^(kt)

I think we all would like to see a  reference that backs that up.  What 
values have been established for k "by the industry"?

>4. Hot water is a good sanitizer, but only when used on a clean surface.
>In addition, unless you have a temperature probe on the outfeed of the
>HE, there is no way of knowing what the actual temperature of the
>outflow is--IOW, there is a temperature drop between inlet and outlet.

Brilliant!  A temperature drop between inflow and outflow in a heat 
exchanger.  I glad you pointed that out.  I always thought the temperature 
of the water INCREASED because of friction of the water rubbing against 
the sides of the tubing.  (I hate to admit it but I  actually measured the 
temperature of the outflow water and it was 183 degrees F, plenty high 
enough for sanitization.)

>5. Wort chillers are a common source of infection because cooled,
>un-pitched wort (a rich, nutrient media) is passing through them on the
>way to the fermenter. One can SEE whether the carboy is clean, not so
>with a HE.  

I dont no where you get the idea that wort chillers are a common source of 
infection.  My experience tells me that my wort chiller has never been a 
source of infection.   Incidently, SIGHT has nothing to do with it.  A 
piece of equipment is either clean or it is not.  Since bacterial 
infections are so persistant, the performance of the equipment is the best 
indication of a problem.  If I am not cleaning or sanitizing effectively 
then I will find out, and soon because my beer will be contaminated.  My 
beer is not contaminated, therefore, I have no problem.  It is as simple 
as that.   You can imagine all you want, but I do not have a problem.

>As for your final two points, these are not arguments; scientific fact
>is not based on democratic principles. I've tasted A LOT of infected
>beer, both at the homebrew level and at the professional level, and HE's
>are a common source.

The only fact I know is that I have brewed (to date) 62 batches of beer 
and used the same counter-flow wort chiller, not one of the batches 
exhibited any noticeable signs of contamination. No amount of scientific 
speculation can change this fact.  (I suppose that Harlan will respond 
with the tired argument that I really have a problem, but I just dont kown 
it because I have bad tastebuds or something)

>Brewers of that caliber ANTICIPATE potential problems and correct them 
before they
>become a problem, the same way that one changes the oil in one's car
>BEFORE a problem occurs.

If I had a home brew for every time I heard that analogy my liver would be 
far worse off than it already is.  Did you know that if you always ware a 
crash helmet and never exceed 10 miles per hour, the chances of ever 
suffering bodily harm due to a car wreck are almost non-existent?  Is this 
how you drive to work every morning?

>The procedures I've outlined are
>industry standards, and for good reason.  

Industry standards?  I was not aware that there were standards for the 
home brewing industry.  Geez, I didnt even know home brewing was an 
industry.  Can you point me toward the current ASTM manual that outlines 
the proper procedures for cleaning and sanitizing?  Is there a USDA 
bulletin that I missed somewhere along the line of my 13 years of brewing? 
 If you feel the need to follow industry standards, maybe you should try 
pasteurizing your home brew.  It has been scientifically proven that this 
greatly reduces the chances of bacterial infection and improves shelf life 
of the finished product.

Brew on,

Paul N.

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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:21:20 -0500
From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject: Septic Brew

In the last couple of months, a few messages have been posted about the 
effects of pouring bleach solution down the drain if you have a septic 
system.  It seems the general consensus was that the bleach would be 
diluted in the system and not kill all the good bugs.

I have a septic system and never though much about it .  However, whilst 
cleaning the yeast cake out of the bottom of a couple of primary fermentors
 the other day, I let the sludge go right down the drain and into the 
septic system.  And then I got to thinking, I just inoculated my septic 
system with enough yeast sludge (the dredges from 14 gallons of brew) to 
brew a pretty good size batch of brew.   What effect is this going to 
have, if any?  Should I periodically be flushing a couple of handfuls of 
hops to keep things balanced?  Will this improve the odor that sometimes 
is emitted on warm still nights?

Any thoughts on this?

Paul Niebergall
Burns & McDonnell
pnieb at burnsmcd.com
"Illegitimis non carborundum"


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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:36:07 -0700
From: "Bayer, Mark A" <Mark.Bayer at JSF.Boeing.com>
Subject: beer line cleaner contents

collective homebrew conscience_

bob s wrote_

>Nancy George wrote about National Chemical Co.'s product
>called BLC (Beer line cleaner). 2 ounce into 5 gallons?
>I'd hate to drip any on my shoe! Sounds pretty nuclear.

>Just what could this nasty stuff be?

i use blc on occasion.  if memory serves, it contains potassium hydroxide,
and i believe  2 oz. per 5 gallons is less cleaner/water than the label
recommends.  it's more like an ounce per quart.  2 oz. in 5 gallons would
probably work, though.  it's pretty strong.  be careful with this stuff -
safety goggles and gloves for sure.

brew hard,

mark bayer
stl mo


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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:34:36 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Demise of BT

I've only minutes to respond, then I'm off on travel for the week.

*IF* BT is defunct, it is a very sad thing.  Whether true or not, hats off
to Stephen Mallery and Deb Jolda and the many others who have made reading
and writing for BT such a great pleasure for so many years.  They have
produced a truly great magazine and deserve credit, if not for financial
success, then for demonstrating what a great brewing publication can be
like - and by contrast, what their competitors lack.

Next steps ?  I also agree with AJ that the rumored loss of BT would leave a
serious vacuum.  The web is a great communications resource, and can with a
bit of effort overcome the graphical difficulties AJ spoke of - but the
access to the web is certainly more limited than paper circulation.  Just
compare HBD circulation vs BT circulation (I don't have time but expect that
differ by much more than a factor of 10X).  Printing and shipping paper
(even to a local club)  costs real money - so advertising and/or
subscriptions costs are an almost absolute requirement for the higher volume
paper venue.  I certainly don't know any details of BTs rumored
difficulties, but it is pretty clear that they were not about extravagant
finances.  An amateur publication done on the cheap by mostly volunteers
would still incur considerable costs, and very considerable efforts.  BT
tried to span that gap from micros to HBers and I always felt that was a
difficult strategy - tho' it clearly gave then access to deeper advertising
pockets on the Pro side.   Some fine publications (see Cook's Illustrated)
do not depend on advertising at all, are high quality, yet the cost is
modest.

Many things to consider, and no simple way to get from here to there.

Are there enough loose pieces (MCAB, judging orgs, disgruntled AHA members,
maybe BT mailing and advert lists & websites, etc) to quickly create and
!Charlie amateur or small scale brewing organization ?  Dunno - but the
opportunity to try won't be around for long, and with a declining population
of interest, probably only one organization can survive.

I'll be happy to discuss this offline with anyone interested, and more if a
solid idea and plan can be devised.  PLZ drop me a note AJ.

Steve Alexander





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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:48:55 -0700 (MST)
From: jliddil at VMS.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: BT,searching, copper, iodophor

I called BT they are sending out a letter to all subscribers about our
options to get our money back on what is left of our subscriptions.  A
person in the beer publishing business said Mallory is trying to find a
way to get the July/Augst issue out.  anyone want to buy a magazine? :-)

AJ asked about our options. Indeed unless the AHA is willing to publish
less mainstream stuff and pay editors to screen aritcles, I think they are
not a real valid option.  Of course it would be great if the powers
that be could prove me wrong. Maybe BYO is willing to take off where BT
left
off?  WRT the web I think it is doable.  Maybe realbeer would be willing
to host the site. Or the HBD server.  We need tools to allow easy
conversion to html where necessary.  Or xml or whatever.  Of course
this needs to be paid for. And this may also raise the old arguement about
splitting the hbd into the newbie and advanced versions. Also WRT photos I
would like to see
something like Livepicture (livepicture.com) implemented in the case of
photos of equipment, cultures etc.  But my isp for liddil.com suggested it
is a server hog.  Anyone have better ideas? 

And this brings up the topic of the hbd arhcives as a valuable resource
for information.  Is it possible to hook into altavista or another search
engine to make searching more specific etc.  Or is the current engine
adiquate and the problem is between the keyboard and the chair?  

I tend to not like to store iodophor.  As Pat pointed out Dan and people
and UC Davis and Siebel have seen stuff growing in peoples iodophor
bukcets.  I suggest that if you are going to sotre iodophor that you
prepare it in a clean air tight container.  I preapre my sanitizers in
glass one gallon jugs.  I always scrube the container out after each use.
Remember that things need to be clean prior to sanitizing.  There is an
article by John Palmer and myself at liddil.com if you are interested.

John Palmer has addressed cleaning copper before.  As an experiment
carmelize some wort onto a piece of copper tubing.  Use 1/2" or bigger so
you can see into it.  Heat it with a flame and plunge it into wort. Then
cool it and try to clean it by soaking in various cleaners.  I think you
will be surpised at how diffiuclt it can be to get it clean depending on
things like you water etc. Oh and make sure the tube is clean to start
with and use acetic acid to get it oxide free. 



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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 16:11:59 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Brave New Brewery - question #2

Re Q1:

The first question  - would you as a homebrewer continue with all grain if
fully equivalent results, and all the flavor and style choices were
available from extract/mix - so called SE-beers.

Most caught on, as Phil Yates immediately noted, that this isn't really the
art vs. science discussion at all.  The hypothetical question really asks,
are we/you as a brewer in love with the brewing process or is the final
product (beer) the ultimate goal.   Most answers, I think, gravitated toward
choosing the process and traditional method over the final product.

I know myself too well though.  The brewing process is interesting and I
would certainly try it for the experience, but ultimately I would choose
making  SE-beers.  I know this is the same reason I have grown barley, and
performed home malting..  Both are extremely interesting and the traditional
appeal is similar, but ultimately I buy malt as good if not better than I
can make, in more types than I can afford to make,  and the time and effort
savings are enormous.

Art vs Science - well if there is any relevance at all then to me (perhaps
alone) it is this.  Where is the 'art' to be found ? The art of painting and
crafts and such all involved tremendous toils in past ages.   For example
deriving pigments from crushed stone, and insect bodies and sea life.  Is
Picasso less an artist because he bought his oils colors  from a
manufacturer ?  I don't think so, but that is my judgment alone.  Is a beer
created from chosen SE ingredients less good than one from traditional
methods if the taste is the same ?  I'd also have to say no.  The 'art' is
in choosing the goal beer flavor and aroma, and not, to me, in the method of
achieving it.

====

Hypothetical Question 2:

It is now 2010 and the taste-tronix developed a few years back is capable of
tasting and analyzing food flavor and aroma far better than the human palate
and nose.  An adjunct program is capable of tasting a specific beer and then
formulating exact replicas from now synthetic SE-beer extracts.  Jichael
Maxxon and Nurse Pivo and all comers are unable to reliably distinguish the
real from the artificial products.  Eventually Duval, PU, McEwans - are
pretty much every small traditional operation that ever saw a lederhosen,
wooden shoe or a kilt are out of business - unable to compete with their
indistinguishable locally cloned products and unsuccessful in pressing
flavor patent claims.  Guinness alone remains by claiming to be subtly
distinguishable to true connoisseurs and charging $12/btl for what is
arguably snob-appeal for those seeking the traditional brewing experience in
a bottle.

Q2: Do we care if these breweries fail if  the clone products are truly
indistinguishable ?  In other words, do you love the traditional beers for
their flavor and color and aroma - or for the tradition behind it ?

 -S




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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:29:42 -0800
From: Brad Miller <millerb at targen.com>
Subject: Punpkin Beer

	In Digest #3123 sombody mentioned the use of pumpkin in beer.
About a year ago I tried this brew and it actually turned out pretty good.
(Far better than any other fuit beers I've done)  What I did was make a
lighter color beer and when I was racking it to the secondary I added the
pumpkin.  I used canned pumpkin flesh not the pie filling.  I didn't cook
the flesh just cleaned the outside of the can.  To get it in the carboy I
put it in a large zip-lock bag to squeeze it in the carboy.  (Try to spoon
some in and you'll use a bag too!)  In the process I added some cinnemon
and corieander.  Last time I added too much of the corieander and it was a
little too strong but aged well.
	I think this year I'll add less coriander and try some pectic
enzyme.  I might even try some honey and orange peel in the last 15 of the
boil.  Hope this helps.


B




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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:33:18 -0800
From: Jeff Hall <hallj at targen.com>
Subject: Hallapeno Jeffeweize & moldy extract

Some time ago, a friend gave me a sample of jalapeno pecan brittle.  Odd, I
thought, but it tasted good, with just a little burn.  Got me thinking of
pepper beer.  I searched the hbd archives and other sites, but found little
information on using fresh peppers in beer.  So I made a 3 gallon batch of
extract based Hefeweizen using my usual recipe except I substituted
Nottingham for the usual Weihenstephan Wheat from Wyeast.  After about a
week in the primary, I racked to 3 separate one-gallon carboys.  To each
was added one pepper prepared as follows.  Washed, roasted on a grill,
split and seeds removed, blanched briefly in boiling water, then into the
beer.  I used a medium sized jalapeno, a smallish habanero, and a large
sized serrano pepper.  I secondaried for about 10 days, then bottled.
Results:
serrano beer- light burn in the back of the throat, moderate flavor of bell
pepper
Jalapeno beer- light burn in the back of the throat, fairly strong but
pleasant taste of jalapeno
Habenero beer- much more burn in throat and on the lips, subtle pepper flavor
I can't say I'd ever want to make 5 gallons of this stuff, but one
pepper/gallon seems about right.
Moldy extract:  I bought bulk wheat extract (Briess) from the local shop,
but didn't get around to brewing for almost 4 weeks.  When I opened the
jar, I found light mold growth on top of the extract.  Having already
started steeping some grain, I just scraped the gunk off the top and brewed
a honey-wheat anyway.  I pitched rehydrated Nottingham and it was chugging
away 5 hours later.  Nothing would survive the boil of course, but I wonder
if there might be any off flavors??

Brew hard,

Jeff Hall, Summerless in Seattle

"Good. Tell him he's Wayne Gretzky."

- -- Ted Green, Edmonton Oilers coach, when told that center Shaun Van
Allen had suffered a concussion and didn't know who he was




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Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:33:22 -0800
From: Brad Miller <millerb at targen.com>
Subject: Copper Cleaning and Bulkheads

	I'm in the latter stanges of building my RIMS and am curious as how
to clean the copper pipes, vessle and chiller.  I heard that citric acid
does the trick.  Has anyone tried this?  Also, has anyone built bulkhead
fittings or bought them some place?  Thanks in advance.

B




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