---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  further to liquorice (Robin Griller)
  Aerobic yeast cultures (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Supporting the brewing infrastructure (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Ashburn(e?) Malt (RCAYOT)
  Measuring liquids - confessions of an anal brewer ("Mercer, David")
  Volume Measurements ("John Robinson")
  dave's o'fest recipe ("Bayer, Mark A")
  Maple syrup brew? ("Jason Birzer")
  Re: Glass Carboys (Nate Wahl)" <cruiser at cros.net>
  Fridge insulation (Dan M Nalven)
  BT demise, AHA membership decrease, etc.... (Jim Kingsberg)
  pumpkin ale recipe (hal)
  Re.: Venturi tube SAFETY ("Sean Richens")
  Bell's Two Hearted Ale ("BeerGeek")
  patents ("Arnold Chickenshorts")
  Using Fruit in beer ("Don Glass")
  The Flavor (William Frazier)
  Cold conditioning question, BT demise, and art ("Guy and Norine Gregory")
  A.J. On A Motorcycle? ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  Further To Beer And Motorcycling ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  Bierbrunnen (darrell.leavitt)
  missed the point (Marc Sedam)
  RE: CO2 "not for human consumption"? ("Arthur McGregor")
  another comment about BT (Marc Sedam)
  HSA (Dave Burley)
  Zymurgy bashing ("Sieben, Richard")
  Fridge Conversion ("J. Matthew Saunders")


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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:01:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robin Griller <rgriller at chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: further to liquorice

Hi all,

Don't know why this didn't come to mind earlier, but Graham Wheeler's
Homebrewing the CAMRA guide gives an (I might be misremembering the year)
'1800 recipe for a good porter' which includes both root liquorice and
spanish liquorice. The recipe also calls for capsicum as I recall!
Spicy! Is spanish liquorice the candy or something else?

Robin



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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:15:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Aerobic yeast cultures


Fred Johnson asks some important questions concerning yeast starters:


>>1. Is it true that only the glucose concentrations and not the
>>concentrations of other fermentable sugars determine whether the yeast will
>>aerobically metabolize the sugar versus ferment it? 

No, a few other sugars induce this phenomenon (known variously as the
"Crabtree effect", "Counter-Pasteur effect", or "catabolite repression") as
well but I believe they will be in low enough concentrations in barley
extracts that they won't be of any real consequence for us brewers. Glucose
concentrations however /will/ be high enough initially to induce catabolite
repression.

>>2. Does one need to also consider the  di-, tri-, and oligo-sachharides
>>that metabolically yield glucose?

An interesting question, especially since maltose and maltotriose are both
composed entirely of glucose! Also, while their degradation may not create
high enough levels of glucose outside the cell it may be more important what
the levels are /inside/ the cell.

>>3. Assuming the concentration of glucose is, indeed, the only important
>>sugar in question here, what is the glucose concentration of dried malt
>>extract. (Again, note the first sentence in the excerpt above.)  If glucose
>>is not the only sugar of importance here, what are the concentrations of 
>>the other sugars in dried malt extract?

It will depend on the source. 
I'll look this up but I'm sure someone else will post specs

>>4. Would the concentrations of other nutrients (e.g. FAN) become rate
>>limiting for growth if one merely made up a solution of dried malt extract
>>to produce a glucose (fermentable sugar) concentration of slightly less 
>>than 0.4%.  That is, would such a wort need to be supplemented with other
>>nutrients?

Probably but again it will depend on the dilution required and the
actual composition of the extract. 

- --------------------------
A couple of things to keep in mind: while it is true that burning glucose with
oxygen (aerobic respiration) is more efficient than fermenting it (anaerobic)
the yeast will still be getting plenty of energy via fermentation if glucose
is kept plentiful. Aside from energy production, the other important role
oxygen plays is in UFA and sterol biosynthesis. This raises the question of
whether or not yeast use oxygen for said syntheses while glucose concentration
remains high enough to keep them in fermentation mode.  My suspicion is that 
they will be able to use oxygen for making ergosterol and desaturating fatty
acids even though they are not utilizing it for burning glucose. 

The reason the "big boys" use incremental feeding is, as you say, to keep the
glucose concentration low enough so as to prevent catabolite repression
By keeping the yeast in respiratory mode they will be growing as fast as
possible, though I'll bet this isn't all that much faster than fermentative
growth in a rich medium. Probably more important to the yeast manufacturers is
to maximize their efficiency and yield - they are putting in x mass of carbon
source (sugar) and ideally want all x of this to get made into yeast cells not
ethanol or some other metabolic byproduct! I suppose ethanol toxicity could
also pose an problem eventually. Another interesting thing that people forget
is that, if given oxygen, the yeast can burn ethanol for fuel...

 -Alan Meeker
    




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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:24:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Supporting the brewing infrastructure 

Rick had some interesting comments on the demise of BT and whether or not to
support other enterprises, even if they fall short of what we'd ideally like
to see.

>I also subscribe to Zymurgy and Brew Your Own.  It is my opinion that not
>subscribing to
>these magazines is counterproductive.  I dare say that if more people
>subscribed to BT
>they would have been able to continue publishing.  I believe that our hobby
>is a relatively
>small one and because of that, if we want publications, we need to subscribe
>and support
>them, even if we don't agree with everything the publisher does.  Even if we

How much of a role did low (or declining?) subscription reate have in the loss
of BT?

I'm torn by this. Yes, I do believe we should be supportive of such 
enterprises but I have my limits...


>Even if we think that every fact or opinion that we
>already know or have
>is an absolute waste of paper and money.  I enjoy Zymurgy and BYO, although

Ahhhhh I think this would be my limit! I just can't see myslf supporting
something if I find it to be an "absolute waste!" Of course, this is obviously
an extreme case. I don't particularly care for Zymurgy but I'll admit I have
found some of their articles useful, especially when I was first getting my
feet wet. 

>also because I
>choose to support the organizations that support my hobby.  If we continue
>to not support
>the few organizations that support the community, we will have no
>publications.

Do you think it might eventually come to that? Are we to be faced with the
choice between mediocre or nothing? A tough choice indeed!


 -Alan Meeker




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Date: 01 Sep 1999 09:19:49 -0400
From: RCAYOT at solutia.com
Subject: Ashburn(e?) Malt

     Anyone use this new malt form Briess?  This is also called "ESB" 
malt. 
      I have 25lbs of this malt, anad I would like to brew a Pale Ale 
(or 
     ESB) from it.  I was wondering if it had enough malt character to 
be 
     used alone?  I was thinking of trying a 10g batch just using the 

     Ashburn malt, and seing how it came out.  I like medium dry, 
toasty, 
     nutty, with hop aroma and medium bitterness.  any suggestions?  I 

     usually use Briess Pale Ale malt with some crystal, wheat, and 
munich 
     for my pale ales, and they come out pretty good, I really would 
like 
     some feedback on this malt if anyone has used it.  
     
     I just came back from visiting the Briess homepage, and guess 
what?  
     This malt is no longer called ESB malt!!#  I wonder, am I 
dreaming?  
     Wasn't this malt subtitled ESB?  I think it is mnow subtitled 
"mild 
     malt" what gives? Maybe they decided it was more widely 
applicable 
     than they initially thought!
     
     Here is what Briess had to say about it:
     
     TYPICAL ANALYTICAL   
      SPECIFICATIONS: Growth 95+ %  
       Glassy/Half Glassy/Mealy**  1 %/2 %/97 % 
       Plump  85 % minimum 
       Thin  2 % maximum 
       Moisture 4.0 %  
       Extract, f.g., d.b.  80.5 % minimum 
       Extract, coarse/fine diff. 1.8 % maximum 
       Color*  5.5 _L 
       Diastatic Power (Lintner)  60 
       Alpha Amylase, D.U.  35 
       Total Protein, d.b.  10.5 - 11.5 % 
       S/T Protein  43 % 
     
     ADVANTAGES: AshburneT Mild Malt, made from premium two-row 
barley, 
     provides a significant color increase into the rich golden hues. 
It 
     has a smooth, sweet flavor, but also adds a full malty flavor to 
beers 
     without adding non-fermentables or affecting the foam stability 
and 
     body. 
     
     The enzymes in AshburneT Mild Malt make it a successful base malt 
in 
     that it will support the use of non-enzymatic specialties and/or 

     adjuncts in conservative proportions. 
      
     APPLICATIONS: AshburneT Mild Malt is primarily suited to beers 
     requiring a dark Vienna-style malt for color adjustment and 
increased 
     malt flavor. 
     
     For ALT and KLSCH, use 10 - 20 %. 
     For OKTOBERFEST, VIENNA/MERZEN, and AMBER beers, use 10 - 25 % 

     AshburneT Mild Malt to obtain a malty flavor. 
     It is used in many English, Irish, and Scottish style ales to 
provide 
     complexity and character.  Full modification and low protein allow
 for 
     single temperature mash programs. Ideal for unfiltered or cask 
     conditioned ales. 
      
      BARLEY VARIETIES: AMBA (American Malting Barley Association) 
approved 
     2-Row. 
      
     Roger Ayotte


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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 10:09:27 -0700 
From: "Mercer, David" <dmercer at path.org>
Subject: Measuring liquids - confessions of an anal brewer

Jeff asks how folks measure liquid volumes, "what do most folks do about
measuring water?
Surely you don't use your kitchen 1 cup Pyrex measures, do you?"

Actually, I confess that I "calibrated" my Pyrex measures by weighing out
water on an accurate digital scale (which was itself calibrated with brass
masses). The Pyrex two and four cup measures were off by about ten percent
(consistently measuring short). What really surprised me was that the
measuring marks on my one and two-liter Pyrex Erlenmeyer lab flasks were
even more inaccurate (again measuring short). All have been corrected. For
gallon measures I use a couple of plastic gallon jugs that once held
distilled water. Those were, perhaps not surprisingly, much more accurate. I
also cut notches on my brewing paddle to measure volume in the kettle where
I am much less anal about accuracy.

Dave in Seattle



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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 14:50:28 -0300
From: "John Robinson" <robinson at novalistech.com>
Subject: Volume Measurements

Hi Jeff,

I've used a 2L pyrex measuring cup, but that is the largest I've been 
able to find, so I had to be more creative.

Around here, we can get buckets with the levels marked on them.  They 
are fairly course, but seem to work well enough in my recipie 
formulations.  I use these now with very acceptable results.

I'm brewing on a 10 gallon system, so it is a bit more forgiving I 
think than a 5 gallon system.  I don't have any problem hitting 
strike temps so it can't be too inaccurate.

Other techniques I've used involve volume measures.  Even though my 
straight sided kegs are not exact cylinders, the difference in volume 
is fairly minor.  Thus the height of the cylinder correlates well to 
volume.  I did explicitly check this using the 2L pyrex measuring 
cup.

Another idea I've thought of, but not yet tried (due to lack of a 
suitable scale) is weighing water.  That ought to work fairly well 
too....


- ---
John Robinson              "The most basic rule of survival in any situation is:
Technical Architect         Never look like food." - Park Ranger. 
NovaLIS Technologies       
robinson at novalistech.com    
                           


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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 11:32:42 -0700 
From: "Bayer, Mark A" <Mark.Bayer at JSF.Boeing.com>
Subject: dave's o'fest recipe

collective homebrew conscience_

here's part of dave's o'fest recipe:

>I plan to mash in at 40C (104F), check/adjust the pH, then pull 1/3 to
>decoct. Raise the decocted portion to 70C(158F), hold to convert, then
raise >to a boil and hold for 20mins.  Add the decocted fraction back to the
main >mash, adjust temp to 60C(140F), hold for 20 mins.  <--- The idea here
is to >ensure lots of attenuation and balance out the decocted portion
converted at >70C.

here's part of a post received from joe power at siebel a few months back:

>My critique to the statement "I saccarify all my beers at 158F to promote 
>more body, mouthfeel and sweetness" would be "You're wasting your time" 
>(assuming you're using North American Malt).  You will need a higher 
>temperature than that to get a significant increase in unfermentable body,
as 
>high as 165F.

i guess my point is that you're not really going to need to "balance out"
many unfermentables that resulted from the 158f rest for the decocted
portion.  there seems to be an unwarranted (my opinion) concern that your
finishing gravity would come out too high if you didn't somehow compensate
for the 158f rest.

since there is no pils malt in the recipe, enzyme preservation may be a
concern in the main mash, particularly since you've got some non-enzymatic
malt in the recipe that the munich malt is going to have to convert.  i
think you are relatively safe at 140 to 149f, though.

>Raise the temp to 65C (149F) and hold until converted.  Mash-out (if I feel
>like it), runoff, sparge... etc...

maybe to be safe (enzymatically), you should limit your mashout temp to 162f
or so.  this will give any surviving alpha amylase a chance to clean up
starch that may be lingering about after the main mash.  alpha is going to
be your only horse at that point.  also, i think the combination of a
140-149f main sacch. rest with wyeast 2206 is going to produce a
well-attenuated beer, if the yeast is in good supply and condition, and
especially if you don't filter the yeast out at some point (attenuation will
continue in the bottle or keg, no matter how cold you lager).  if you truly
hit 25 ibu's, your beer could be a little more bitter than the average
german example (spaten is ~ 1.055og and ~22 ibu).  that's not bad, if that's
what you prefer.  you're going to definitely be in the ballpark for the
style.

if you're interested, getting a higher finishing gravity (more than 1.013 or
so) through the use of higher mash temps would be less perilous if you used
a little pils or wheat malt (verboten!) to give you some more enzymes.
using wyeast 2124 could help get a slightly higher fg without having to
boost the mash temps as high, but the continued attenuation in the
lagering/storage phase still applies.

the bottom line is i think you're going to hit the upper end of the
attenuation specs for the yeast, which is around 77% apparent for 2206
(assuming healthy fermentation).  that puts your final gravity at around
1.013.  maybe that's not so bad.  but don't think you have to overcompensate
for the 158f decoct rest.  that shouldn't be a concern for you.  just don't
decimate the alpha by mashing out at 170f+.

this is strictly all based on experience (except for the joe power quote
 -there's probably some hard science behind that one).  ymmv.

brew hard,

mark bayer
stl mo


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Date: Wed,  1 Sep 1999 14:54:56 -0400
From: "Jason Birzer" <longshot at pressroom.com>
Subject: Maple syrup brew?

Something my girlfriend was asking me about was whether it was
practical to make a fermented beverage out of Maple Syrup.  I'm not 
talking about a beer, but something like Mead (fermented honey).  I 
know that maple syrup is highly fermentable, but I don't know if a 
beverage of just that is worth it.  Has anyone on her tried something 
like this?  How did it turn out?  Any resources for this sort of thing?

Jason Birzer



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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 18:10:31 -0400
From: "(Nate Wahl)" <cruiser at cros.net>
Subject: Re: Glass Carboys

Brewers,

Due to many requests for info on the carboy carriers we made, I uploaded
a drawing of how it is constructed.  Please refer to
http://www.cros.net/cruiser/brewery/carrier.gif for details.  I'll try
to get some pictures uploaded later.  This is a design similar to the
ones we made, but updated and improved by my brewing buddy, Ron Ropers. 
I hope this helps make someone's brewing a little safer.

There's also some pages there and lots of pics & drawings of my RIMS
system for viewing/comment/questions.  Go to the intro page
http://www.cros.net/cruiser/index.html and follow the brewing links.  It
is always under construction.

Regards,
Nate


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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 18:51:30 -0400
From: Dan M Nalven <dmnalven at bestweb.net>
Subject: Fridge insulation

Refrigerators are designed to make and keep food cold (duh). Inasmuchas
(sp?) your refrigerator is probably less than 25% full (one or two
Corny's) it is working overtime trying to make and keep that huge space
of air cold. Air has very poor thermodynamic properties.

The solution (simple and very inexpensive) is to fill your refrigerator
with water jugs (water being the main component of most food products).

Put a couple of 3/4 full liter soda bottles in the freezer compartment
and as many as you can fit around the Corny(s). Your refrigerator will
thank you for it (and so will your SO as the unit will become more
efficient and consume less electricity). Another big plus; You will
always have cold and frozen water jugs on hand for wort temperature
control and the odd drink of water.

The styrofoam (tm) will not work per the above and it will seriously
impede the convection currents inside the fridge (remember, the freezer
compartment is at the top!).

One quick question before I finish. Are you sure the light inside goes
off when the door is closed? It could be giving off a significant amount
of heat ;).

Dan M


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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 19:15:36 -0500
From: Jim Kingsberg <fugowee at theramp.net>
Subject: BT demise, AHA membership decrease, etc....

Actually, looking at the whole kaboodle, ie, the recent demise of BT, AHA
membership decrese, reduction in number of homebrew shops, it really looks
like the entire hobby of homebrewing is on a severe retreat.  I would be
interested in seeing how many new subscriptions are taking place for the
HBD, as well.  Are HBD subscriptions on the decline?  Are the number of
homebrew dedicated websites declining (one area I doubt is declining)?  
So, Im left with two questions:  Will the writing/editorial staff hook up
with Zymurgy or other homebrew publications?  And what can the AHA or any
other grassroots org do to bolster homebrewing as a hobby/industry?
Actually, another question is why is this hobby suffering?  (The AHA should
have answers to this question.)  Is a good economy making it easier to buy
good microbrew?  
Mmmm...better send in some donation money to the HBD...

Jim Kingsberg
Fugowee Brewery, Evanston, IL
"I want my HBD."  - Rev. Pivo




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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 21:00:17 -0600
From: hal <hwarrick at springnet1.com>
Subject: pumpkin ale recipe

I got requests for the Pumpkin Ale recipe out of " Homebrewers Recipe
Guide ",
sorry I didn't give it last time.

    3 lbs. amber malt Xtract            8 lbs. pumpkin (fresh,not canned
)
    3 lbs. lite dry malt Xtract           1 pkg.pumpkin pie spice
    1 lb. crystal malt                        4 cinn. sticks
    1/2 lb. choc. malt                       3 whole nutmegs
    1 tsp. gypsum                            6 whole allspice
    2 oz.kent hops(B)                      1 pkg. london ale yeast
    1 oz. fuggles hops (A)               3/4 cp. corn sugar (priming)
    1 tsp. Irish moss

Quarter the pumpkin & sprinkle w/ pumpkin pie spice.Bake for 2 hrs.
 at  350 deg., until tender. Remove from oven. Cut pumpkin into 1 inch
cubes, mash slightly, & set aside. Place crushed crystal malt, choc.
malt,
and gypsum in water and steep at 155 deg. for 30 min. remove spent
grains
and add the malt extracts, kent hops, pumpkin, cinn., nutmeg, &
allspice.
Boil for 1 hr., adding the fuggles and Irish moss during the last 5
min..
Remove the whole spices and pumpkin. Cool and pitch yeast. Ferment 10-14
days.
Transfer to 2ndary and let sit another 5-7 days. Bottle, using corn
sugar.
Age in bottle for 7-10 days or longer then enjoy.

Hal



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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 21:05:08 -0500
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: Re.: Venturi tube SAFETY

Dana's post regarding using a Venturi tube (whazzat?  Oh, a water
aspirator) was interesting enough to work through.  I have always thought
about using some such mild vacuum-type system for applications such as:
 - racking without using siphons (avoid lifting carboys if you have a bad
back or some other physical limitation)
 - aeration without risking a chemical or plastic smell (apply vacuum at the
carboy mouth and have just a sterile filter or glass wool contraption clean
the air entering through your dip tube and air stone).

I always worry about one thing which has stopped me from going this route: 
safety.  Marty's word to the wise (same HBD date) terrified this guitar
player/home brewer.  If a glass carboy isn't explicitly rated for vacuum,
then you just don't know how much is safe.  Water aspirators can easily get
to 28" Hg vacuum (about 14 psi) on a good flow of cold water.  I've seen
(wrong - heard from a safe place) a non-rated 1 gallon flask implode and
the glass flew a good 10 feet.  If the flask had not been full the glass
would have been launched with even more kinetic energy.

Vacuum-rated carboys are available from Pyrex.  If anyone knows of a source
that charges less than lab $upply hou$e$, please post it!  Otherwise,
PLEASE:
 - use stainless or polypropylene vessels - they collapse, but don't
shatter, or 
 - figure out some kind of safety valve that limits the vacuum (1 psi =
about 2 ft water)
 - only "boost" your siphon or chiller when handling clear liquids free of
hops, etc. so that there is no risk of something plugging it and causing
your vacuum level to go out of whack.

I don't remember the exact numbers, but in a vacuum implosion each 10 L of
volume gives an energy equivalent to something like 1 kg dropped from one
metre (don't flame me for less than 50% error).  If that 1 kg was sharp
like glass...

Happy and safe brewing, everyone

Sean Richens


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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 22:18:30 -0500
From: "BeerGeek" <beergeek at flash.net>
Subject: Bell's Two Hearted Ale

Thanks to all that replied to my post last month, in which I was looking for
information on Bell's Two Hearted Ale.  Here is the recipe for my latest
attempt--close, very good, but for the next batch, I will decrease the
bitterness by 10%, increase the flavor
hops by 25%, and increase the aroma hops by 25%, using all whole hops.
================

Batch size: 10.5 gallons
Style: India Pale Ale

 Date Gravity Plato
Brewing: 08/09/99 1.063 15.3
Racking: 08/11/99 1.032 7.9
Bottling: 08/23/99 1.018 4.4
Alcohol: 4.8% (w/w)
Alcohol: 6.0% (v/v)

Ingredients:

Belgian Pale Ale     19.0 pounds 1.055 S.G. 5.4 SRM 60 min mash
Crystal 10                 1.0 pounds 1.003 S.G. 1.0 SRM 60 min mash
Belgian Aromatic     1.0 pounds 1.003 S.G. 2.1 SRM 60 min mash
Cara Pils                   1.0 pounds 1.003 S.G. 0.2 SRM 60 min mash

Centennial 0.8 ounces 60 min 9.9 % AA 16.0 ibu pellet
Centennial 2.0 ounces 20 min 9.9 % AA 14.6 ibu pellet
Centennial 2.0 ounces 5 min  9.9 % AA 8.0 ibu pellet
Centennial 2.0 ounces Dry Hopped 9.9 % AA 7.2 ibu pellet

Mash water amount: 32.0
Strike temperature: 173 degrees Fahrenheit

Sparge water amount: 32.0 quarts
Sparge water temperature: 170 degrees Fahrenheit
Extraction efficiency: 84 %

Sparge liquor collected: 11.5 gallons
Topping water amount: 0.0 quarts
Boil size: 11.5 Gallons

Mashing schedule
minutes   degrees Fahrenheit
0                   156
60                 152
75                 170
135               170

Fermentation

Wyeast #1056 American Ale Slurry 4.0 quart starter
Primary fermentation: 6-1/2 Gallon Carbouy
Secondary Fermentation: 5 Gallon Carboy

Fermentation schedule
days   degrees Fahrenheit
 1              74
14             74
15             44
30             44

Fermentation comments
Dry hopped from 8/14/99 to 8/23/99.

Tasting comments
Lower mash temp--need a final gravity of 1.009.

================

Kevin

beergeek at flash.net




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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 19:49:52 PDT
From: "Arnold Chickenshorts" <achickenshorts at hotmail.com>
Subject: patents

Spencer mentions the IBM website for patents. This has really crappy quality 
images.

A better one is the official US patent page
http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html

Free, high quality images. You need a TIFF viewer to see the images rather 
than (full) text. One of these is at
http://mie.med-web.com/alternatiff/

which is a free, unlimited time jobbie.

Arnold Chickenshorts

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Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 20:06:24 PDT
From: "Don Glass" <deglass at hotmail.com>
Subject: Using Fruit in beer

I am a beginner looking for a little friendly advice on an idea I had to 
make a strawberry hefeweizen.  I was wondering a few things:

1. Should I use extract or can I use raw or frozen fruits.

2. At what point should I add them...primary...secondary.... before 
bottling?

3. any other thoughts?


Here's brew you,
Don Glass

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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 03:58:30 +0000
From: William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: The Flavor

Jeff Renner writes, concerning Fuller's ESB...

"The ever useful _Real Ale Almanac_ (Roger Protz, CAMRA) lists this for
Fuller's ESB (which you may already know):

OG 1054 ABV 5.5%
Ingredients: Alexis and Chariot pale malt (90%), crystal malt (3%), flaked
maize (7%), caramel.  31 units of colour.  Challenger, Northdown and Target
hops for bitterness, challenger, Northdown and Goldings for aroma; whole and
pellet hops, dry hopped.  35 units of bitterness."

NOTE:  The key ingredient mentioned above is CARAMEL.

FESB is my favorite beer.  I drive about 30 miles to Lawrence, Kansas (it's
flat in Kansas so the drive is easy) to drink FESB from the keg.  My
description of FESB is a beer with strong, mellow bitterness with a
distinctive caramel flavor and sweetness.  I notice a big difference between
the bottle and keg versions.

I can create the mellow bitterness but have had no luck with the caramel
flavor after nine attempts.  I've been to the archives and to the Cat's Meow
recipes.  Several different crystal malts (60L, 90L, Cara Vienne, Cara
Munich) have been tried in ever increasing amounts.  I've caramalized sugar
much like you would do in making peanut brittle and added 1/2 pound to a
five gallon batch without any caramel flavor.  I've used up to 15% flaked
maize...makes a nice color but no caramel flavor.

I was just getting ready for the tenth permutation of my RedHawk recipe when
I read Jeff's post giving the details of the FESB recipe. Looks like the
pale malt, crystal and maize add up to 100%.  So, what is the CARAMEL and
where does it come from.

        Bill Frazier
        Johnson County, Kansas









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Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 21:43:38 -0700
From: "Guy and Norine Gregory" <guyg at icehouse.net>
Subject: Cold conditioning question, BT demise, and art

A question for any who are also cold conditioning ales.  I brew rye beers
from time to time, and I'm finding excellent results settling out the
typical rye turbidity by conditioning the beer for about 3 weeks following a
1 week primary fermentation.  My conditioning temp is about 40 degrees F.  I
was hoping someone who had done this with wheat beers or other typically
cloudy beers might weigh in.  My clarity is excellent after this cold
conditioning, even without using irish moss in the boil.

RE: BT demise.  I hold the owners in high esteem, doing their best to pay
those owed even though the business is no more.  It's tough to do, but
you'll have no trouble sleeping at night...I recognize your honor.  By the
way, it was an excellent magazine, and I hope it will be remembered by home
brewers as long as "The Rudder" is by boating enthusiasts..

and regarding art in brewing...pity the brewer who sees no art in the
creation of beer....like all art in science, open your eyes, it's right
there under your nose.  Pity the brewer who sees no science, too. Open your
eyes, because it's the thread that holds the art together.  A datapoint: I
brew for taste and fun, not to replicate styles.  For me, just a hobby, but
one I find rewarding.

Cheers:

Guy Gregory
Lightning Creek Home Brewery
Spokane WA





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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:56:41 +1000
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: A.J. On A Motorcycle?

A.J.
     I nearly included a note that "Big Hairy Jeff's" mate A.J. was
certainly not the A.J. of the HBD. Well I don't think he is. The A.J. I
mentioned certainly loves his beer (and his Harley Davidson) but he ain't no
homebrewer. I myself ride a Norton.

Cheers
Phil.

PS It is possible though that Big Hairy Jeff is in fact Jeff Renner.



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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 19:53:47 +1000
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Further To Beer And Motorcycling

A.J.
    I forgot to lend you my support. Don't let that Chickenshorts character
get up your exhaust system. Reliable sources tell me the "nancy purse
carrier" paddles around town on a Lambretta. What would a punce like that
know about brewing real beer?

Phil.



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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 07:17:37 -0500 (EST)
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Bierbrunnen


 On vacation in Ft. Lauderdale, and I had the luck of running into a good
German Beer Bar right in the downtown area.  It is called Bierbrunnen Ger-
man Pub, and while they do not have a huge selection...what they do have
is very good: Bitburger, Spaten, Diebels Alt (wonderful!), Kostritzer
Schwarzbier (also very good), Erdinger and Tucher.  They are in the heart
of Lauderdale Beach...and have a lot of very friendly people.
 ...Darrell
<Terminally Intermediate Home-brewer>



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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 08:41:01 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: missed the point

Scott:

I think you missed the entire point of my post.  First, I am a
homebrewer and have a very close, personal relationship with my
local homebrew shop.  I worked there for three years (up until
this past Saturday) and constantly take up the charge for the
local shop.  In fact I spent most of this past Saturday at a
local brewery tour standing on my soapbox telling people that if
they liked to brew they had to support the local shops.  I saw a
known "bulk-purchase" homebrewer find another place to stand when
he heard what I was saying.  Second, I manage intellectual
property for a living (I think Louis does more litigation) and
don't think that what Wyeast is doing is necessarily illegal.  As
for sleazy, that's in the eye of the beerholder.  If Microsoft
hasn't been convicted of major anti-trust violations yet, I doubt
Wyeast will any time soon.

The point is this.  About four months ago I posted an impassioned
plea for people to stop buying grains and other supplies from
their local breweries or internet-based shops just because of the
price.  Point being that if people go away from the local shop
for everything but that last-minute pack of hops, the shop won't
exist for long.  I was slammed by 95% of the HBD collective
including a large number of HB shop owners who said, "If you
can't compete on price why should you stay in business."
Corporate Darwinism.  Well, it's hard for HB shops to compete on
the price of a sack of grain when you buy 2000lbs per order and a
local brewery buys 20,000lbs.  It's comparing apples and
oranges.  My sardonic point about ordering directly from Wyeast
underscores this concept.  And dropping the price on Wyeast in
exchange for not stocking White Labs *is* trying to compete on
cost.  They might not be the same cost as White Labs, but they
are reducing wholesale prices to get you to agree.  I don't think
it's sleazy at all.

So Scott, I totally agree with what you're saying and,
unbeknownst to you, you further made my point.  Competition is
NOT just about the best price, rather it's a combination of
price, service, and utility.  When people make decisions based on
price alone (e.g., Wyeast will give me a cheaper price if I drop
White Labs--my margin goes up and I make more money off the
yeast) selection usually decreases.  See Budmilloors.

If you were the last homebrew supply shop in the country and your
prices for an ounce of hops were 2x a direct-order distributor, I
guarantee you'd get an order from me.  Viva le homebrew shops!

Cheers!
Marc Sedam



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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:51:27 -0400
From: "Arthur McGregor" <MCGREGAP at acq.osd.mil>
Subject: RE: CO2 "not for human consumption"?



Hi Everyone!

Julio asked about CO2 cartridges by the BB guns isle and the statement
"not for human consumption" on the box/cartridge. The way it was
explained to me is that most (or all) CO2 cartridges made for use in
BB guns or Paint Ball Guns have oil in them to lubricate the internal
parts of the gun.  I have actually tried these BB Gun cartridges twice
with 5 gallon kegs, and towards the end of the keg, you could notice
some aftertaste that had to be oil.  After noticing that I stopped
using them and only use the ones that are sold by William Brewing
Company (http:// www.williamsbrewing.com/  - - not affiliated, yada
yada ya), which are supposed to be 100% CO2 with no oil.  The
following is from their on-line catalog:

> 12 GRAM C02 CARTRIDGES Unlike many air gun cartridges marked
> `Not for Human Consumption', because they contain lubricating
> oil, these are filled with pure C02 suitable for beer use.
> Sold individually. Ground shipment only.
>
> D42 ____________________ $.79 each (79 cents each)
> 30 or more D42 _________ $.59 each (59 cents each)

I have never had a problem with the Williams cartridges.

BTW the local Homebrew store told me that CO2 cartridges at Williams
Brewing were made originally for an athletic shoe that used the CO2
to adjust the pressure of the shock absorption of the shoe.  The shoe
was a flop, and didn't sell, and Williams Brewing purchased all of
the companies inventory.

I would be interested if anyone knows of an alternative (cheaper)
supplier/source of 12 gram "food grade" CO2 cartridges

Hoppy Brewing,
Art McGregor   (mcgregap at acq.osd.mil)
Lorton, Virginia (near Washington, DC)




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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 08:59:57 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: another comment about BT

I'm going to make a suggestion about the fate of subscription
money from BT.  Donate it to one of two places--BT or the HBD.
Any residual funds left with BT should help in defraying
liabilities left on the books.  The staff at BT are good people
and anything we can do to diminish the effect of the magazine's
demise on the principals is a good thing.  If you don't like the
concept of leaving your money with a defunct institution, try
donating it to the HBD for the purpose of creating the online
newsletter/magazine Pat had already spoken about.

Cheers!
Marc



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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:22:54 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: HSA

Brewsters:

AlK's comments on HSA and the suggestions that
melandoins are somehow involved induced AlK
to think that a high melandoin beer should be the
subject of his next experimnent.

I would think the high melandoin would be the
wrong way to go, since a large amount would
absorb some of the oxygen ( if that is the mechanism).

I discovered what I assume came to be called HSA
in my early brewing before I ever read very much
( it hadn't been printed yet!)and before Charley P's
book was even a gleam in his eye, as best as I can
tell. But I did notice a taste to my HB which was not nice.
 I also used my experience with winemakling to note
some of the same offtastes as found in oxidised wine.

I did an experiment in which I poured half of the wort
through a SS mesh strainer to thoroughly aerate the
beer ( just pouring it through the air entrains a
surprisingly small amount and may explain part of the
discrepancy of "HSA is bad /no it isn't". The larger
the stream, the entrained air % decreases.  The results
of my experiment caused me to respect the damage
air can do to hot wort and the final results on the beer.

I suggest, however that low melandoin ( e.g. lager)
worts be the subject of the experiment and use a
strainer to maximize the air entrainment. These
two factors, melandoin content and insufficent
entrainment may explain the differing results. The
other factor may be that certain experimenters already
have HSA from other areas in their brewing and 

may not find a difference.  Somehow we should
think of how to get a standard. Any thoughts?
- ---------------------------------------
Bob Fesmire's "fatty liver" test results could be
an important health indicator, especially if your
alcohol intake is limited to 1 to 2 beers per day
and I suggest you go to your doctor and have
it checked out.

However,  I certainly wouldn't listen to my
insurance agent about lifestyle changes! I 

would also look elsewhere for some insurance.

I also strongly recommend you get another
blood test before signing up for anything.
I once had a blood test at work and an old,
fat guy was in front of me. When my results
came back the results were terrible ( very
high cholesterol) and totally out of line with my
history. I guess the old, fat guy was very happy
with his results!  Point is, blood tests are not
infallible. Mistakes are often made in this area.  


Secret - don't make a record or you will pay for
it the rest of your life. My friend's wife once
got a prescription from her doctor for an inhaler
often given to asthma patients ( she's not) and 

she has to pay an incredible medical insurance
premium now that her husband is retired.
I predict it will only get worse, so be careful.

Always try to get giveaways at your doctor,
so you  will not be making a record, if the
treatment is a one time thing or a test treatment.
For the younger crowd - have various tests
which involve AIDS and SDs done under
a false name and false Social Security #.
Your doctor will do this for you. If not,
change doctors. Likewise, if your school
has a new mission to identify drug users
and your kid is involved ( I just had a 

neighbor with this problem), refuse to let the
school do it, but you should do it (in case
your child is taking drugs you should know
and take private action) without involving
your child's real name and ID.  Just
having had the test - despite the results- can
have a negative effect and you will never know.  


I may be paranoid, but they ARE out to get us!
- ---------------------------------------
Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley

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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:23:39 -0500 
From: "Sieben, Richard" <SIER1 at AERIAL1.COM>
Subject: Zymurgy bashing

Randy Ricchi said,"Personally, I think that all the anti-AHA sentiment that
we read here is juvenile bullshit."

Really! such language!  I actually don't believe you have been paying
attention here Randy.  The AHA bashing (if you are insightful enough to read
between the lines) is really only a prod to the AHA to meet the needs of the
homebrew community.  It seems the AHA has lost touch with most of us along
the way.  I agree that some of their PAST work and issues of Zymurgy were
good, but lately they have been pretty weak, IMO.

You asked, "Does anyone REALLY believe that Brew Your Own is a better
brewing rag than Zymurgy?"  

To which I answer, um, yes.  I have only been motivated to purchase one copy
of Zymergy in the last year, not because I don't like the AHA or CP, but
because I didn't see anything I wanted from the magazine.  On the other
hand, I have liked Brew Your Own so much, I have subscribed.  I never felt
strongly enough about Zymurgy to subscribe, and when I was a newbie, I was
actually intimidated by the thought of joining the AHA which I felt was
touted as being a collection of near professional brewers.  Somehow, the AHA
blew it (on getting me as a newbie interested in joining) and I don't know
if I can pinpoint how that happened for me, maybe $60 for a subscription was
too much for me at the time.

I think what we all want here is a brewing organization that will actually
support our efforts, encourage the influx of new folks and keep the interest
of those of us who are already here in order to keep the hobby healthy.
Otherwise, we will all find ourselves buying feed barley and malting our own
and using Red Star yeast!  

I think the objection to CP's salary is more due to the fact that it is a
'non-profit' volunteer organization, so why are my hobby dollars paying him
so much?  Ok, he needs to make a decent living and maybe 50 to 80k is
reasonable assuming this is a full time occupation for him.  But what was it
120k?  don't you find that a bit much for someone who doesn't even have to
engage in major fund raising activities?  I think a lot of folks have a
problem with any non profit organization paying a lot for it's CEO.  For
example, while a lot of us (self included) pay into United Way, it does kind
of 'stick in my craw' that a relatively large percentage of my contribution
never makes it to it's intended beneficiaries.  (pressure from bosses kind
of makes it an unwritten 'requirement' to contribute, so I do as little as I
can, and make my major contributions more directly to the specific
organizations that get some funding from United Way.)

Now, if CP was doing some major job of getting judgings in proper order,
driving efforts to get new brewers, feed the interest of current brewers,
etc, maybe that big salary would be warranted....but I don't see it as it
lies right now.  There is a chance however, that CP may read this and take
notice and do something about it.  That would be nice.  After all it was a
CP book that introduced me to the hobby, and I sure would like to see the
hobby revitalized!

Rich Sieben
Island Lake, northwest nowhere from Chicago


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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 07:23:55 -0600
From: "J. Matthew Saunders" <matthew-saunders at uswest.net>
Subject: Fridge Conversion

Dear Collective,

Recently I acquired a dorm fridge for almost nothing.  I'd like to turn the
thing into a jockey box.  My wife and I live in a pretty small apartment,
so purchasing a full sized fridge is out of the question.  I have all the
fittings to convert a full sized fridge, but I'm lacking the "cold plate"
that cooler style jockey boxes use.  I've priced these plates out--$100 and
more!  I've toyed in my mind with copper or SS tubing running back and
forth in some kind of bath in the fridge as a solution.  Anyhow, I thought
I'd toss this out to the masses and see what kind of response I'd get.

Cheers!
Matthew in CO--getting thirsty.


"We have to work in the theatre of our own time,
with the tools of our own time" --Robert Edmond Jones




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---