---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  CO2 for non-boinked mini kegs... (Some Guy)
  wyeast and white labs (Robin Griller)
  Prolific today, ain't I? Thought for CP (Some Guy)
  Freezer insulation (fridge)
  12g CO2 Cartridges (Dan Listermann)
  aerobics, JUST SAY NO TO WYEAST (jliddil)
  Liver levels (John Lifer)
  carboy volume markers ("Bayer, Mark A")
  Re: retailers and suppliers ("Christopher Farley")
  Whitelabs Yeast (Dan Listermann)
  barley covers ("St. Patrick's")
  a bigger fridge ("Thomas D. Hamann")
  Cleaning Counterflow Chillers (BillPierce)
  soybeans (JPullum127)
  Fruit fly in starter (Jonathan Peakall)
  Drilling a fridge ("Dave Thomson")
  Kettles (William Frazier)
  Kegging - Too Much Foam! (Davemundo)
  Nitrogen ("Scott Church")
  homebrew cooking - beer baked beans (Scott Murman)
  Fullers ESB ("Campbell, Paul R SSI-TSEA-A")
  Wheat Malt in Ale ("Campbell, Paul R SSI-TSEA-A")
  Disappointed in Hops Restaurant.... (darrell.leavitt)
  Re: CO2 "not for human consumption: (Julio Canseco)
  using fruit in beer ("Alan McKay")
  1999 Spooky Brew Review Homebrew Competition ("Jim Hodge")
  re: CO2 "not for human consumption"? (John_E_Schnupp)
  Mild recipe: was Re:  Ashburn(e?) Malt (Jeff Renner)
  Re: The Flavor (Jeff Renner)
  Off Flavor (Troy Kase)
  Caramel flavor and where does it come from. ("Peter J. Calinski")
  RE: CO2 "not for human consumption"? (John_E_Schnupp)
  RE: CO2 "not for human consumption"? (Dawn Watkins)
  Beer Stein Cages ("Spinelli, Mike")
  Re: HSA ("Jack Schmidling")


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 08:52:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: CO2 for non-boinked mini kegs...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Art sez...

> BTW the local Homebrew store told me that CO2 cartridges at Williams
> Brewing were made originally for an athletic shoe that used the CO2
> to adjust the pressure of the shock absorption of the shoe.  The shoe
> was a flop, and didn't sell, and Williams Brewing purchased all of
> the companies inventory.

Yes. Those would be Nikee's "CO2 Jordans". Marketing favored the "Air
Jordans" because air is essentially free for the taking all around us - at
least for the time being. Macrosoft and The Boston Brew Company are both
in litigation over claims to trademark of the term "air" and the patent to
it's formulation. Once settled, there will likely be a per-breath
surcharge for use. You compressor users are in for a rude awakening. The
Air Forces in many countries are already moving to replace "Air" with
"Atmosphere" on all their documents, paraphenalia dand equipment in order
to beat the grace period for infringement suits. Air lines are banking on
being confused with companies who supply hoses and avoiding litigation
altogether.

He continues...

> I would be interested if anyone knows of an alternative (cheaper)
> supplier/source of 12 gram "food grade" CO2 cartridges

No, but I bought one of those "carbonator caps". You screw this (the
twisting motion, mind you) on the CO2 port of your minikeg tap, then
attach it to the CO2 regulator on your CO2 tank. Much cheaper, in the long
run, but much heavier than 12 grams (and you can't fit a spare into your
pocket).

 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Bottling makes one giddy, don't it? I shorely do..."



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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 09:17:08 -0400
From: Robin Griller <rgriller at chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: wyeast and white labs

Hi,

I agree with Terry from Brewfellows that Wyeast seems to be following
the worst practices of big monopolist companies. I wonder if there
aren't a couple of possible responses: one is for Terry to switch to a
wholesaler that does carry more than one brand of yeast (or at least
switch wholesalers and tell the previous wholesaler that you are no
longer purchasing from them because they signed an exclusive
distribution ingredient. There are multiple wholesalers aren't there?).
Second, perhaps we homebrewers should simply stop buying Wyeast
products. There are several other producers (White Lab, Yeast Lab, YCKC,
Brewtek, anyone know if Alemaster liquid yeast from Britain is available
over here?), so we don't have to buy wyeast. They have a good selection,
but if they are going to behave like A-B, surely we don't want to give
them our custom? Third, perhaps Terry can limit his selection of Wyeast
while expanding his selection of other brands, even offering specials to
get his customers off their wyeast habits. Finally, given what the
fellow from Northern Brewer said, shouldn't Dr. White be considering
filing a libel/defamation suit against Wyeast about D. Logsdon's
grotesque claims about White Labs' product quality. I know I would.

What happens when Wyeast is the only game in town? Higher prices, shitty
selection, 'all yeasts taste the same'? Hell, next thing you know
they'll be selling 20 yeasts under different names that all taste like
American Ale (i.e. like nothing). Surely it don't need a smiley.

Robin


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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:00:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Prolific today, ain't I? Thought for CP


Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

On Thu, 2 Sep 1999 "Sieben, Richard" <SIER1 at AERIAL1.COM> wrote:

> Now, if CP was doing some major job of getting judgings in proper order,
> driving efforts to get new brewers, feed the interest of current brewers,
> etc, maybe that big salary would be warranted....but I don't see it as it
> lies right now.  There is a chance however, that CP may read this and take
> notice and do something about it.  That would be nice.  After all it was a
> CP book that introduced me to the hobby, and I sure would like to see the
> hobby revitalized!

I have a suggestion! He can better earn his salary by not proliferating
disinformation and out-of-date opinions in his Q&A in Zymurgy! Yeah! What
an idea! Actually get someone who has KEPT UP with the home brewing
community during the last ten years to write the column! Wow! 

(Sorry, Paul. Had to...)

 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 10:23:43 -0400
From: fridge at kalamazoo.net
Subject: Freezer insulation

Greetings folks,

 In HBD#3125, Adam Holmes looks for ways to increase the 
efficiency of his old fridge and asks for advice about filling the 
freezer compartment with foam insulation.

 In previous posts I've discussed the various ways new fridges are 
made to be more efficient. The most important factors being the 
"foamed-in-place" insulating technique instead of the fiberglass or 
rock wool insulation used in older models, and smaller, more 
efficient compressors.

 Adding insulation to the freezer compartment would probably not 
help at all. In fact, unless the fridge is a frost-free model with a 
remote evaporator, chances are that the insulation would cause 
operational problems.

 If the freezer compartment is not being used, consider filling it with 
plastic milk jugs filled with water to add thermal mass. Leave room 
for liquid expansion in the jugs to prevent bursting. The added 
thermal mass will help to even the compressor's duty cycle and 
minimize temperature fluctuations. It probably won't dramatically 
increase the fridge's efficiency however.

 Unless the fridge is located in an area with a high ambient 
temperature, I think the fridge's inability to hold proper temperature 
is more likely to be caused by leaky door gaskets, a worn 
compressor, refrigerant loss, or ice build-up on the evaporator.

 If looks aren't important, and the fridge has its condenser on the 
back or underneath, it is possible to glue rigid styrofoam board to 
the outside of the cabinet. Be sure to provide good air circulation to 
the condenser.

Hope this helps!

Forrest Duddles - FridgeGuy in Kalamazoo
fridge at kalamazoo.net



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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 11:25:47 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: 12g CO2 Cartridges

Julio Canseco ( jcanseco at arches.uga.edu) asks about 12g CO2 cartridges
labled "not for human consumption."   I to read that on a box of Daisy
cartridges and wondered about it.  I have been dealing with Leland 
Limited,
Inc. during the development of the Philtap and asked the president, 
Leland
Stanford, about the Daisy cartridges.  He said that years ago they used 
to
put a drop of oil in each cartridge before filling them, but they no 
longer
do that and the cartridges produced today are the same ones used for 
their
food products.  I have used Daisy cartridges in my beer and found no
problems with taste or head retention.

I can't speak about the ones made in Hungary.

Dan Listermann  dan at listermann.com    72723.1707 at compuserve.com

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Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 09:26:02 -0700 (MST)
From: jliddil at VMS.ARIZONA.EDU
Subject: aerobics, JUST SAY NO TO WYEAST

- ------------------------------
Fred Johnson wrote:


To the collective:

>I have been interested in establishing an aerobic yeast propogation
>system
>for my starters.  Such a system putatively has the advantage of producing
>large amounts of yeast in minimal volumes in minimal time.  Below is an
>excerpt from the YeastLink website in which the method and commercial
>equipment for this process is described.


I don't have answers to your four questions off the top of my head.  So
I'll have to research this.  If you are considering doing this at home let
me offer some advice.  Ultimately what you want is a chemostat bioreactor.
This
device is computer controlled and has various monitors for pH, DO, sugar
etc. and the nutrients are added as needed via pumps. Do a web search and
you can find all kinds of stuff.  

FWIW I actually made one after consulting a guy at the Univ. boitech
center.  I used something like:



http://www.vwrsp.com/plweb-cgi/fastweb?getdoc+Catalog+Products+338414+2+vMWY0FG

I replaced the caps on the arms with silicone stoppers.  I used a sintered
frit and silcone tubing to introduce air.  I used a small two head
perstaltic pump to add media (YM) at the same rate I with drew the media
and yeast.  Because it is made of all glass and silicone I could autoclave
the whole thing. I could start it up by innoculating it with cells and let
them grow until the media was cloudy and then start the pump and collect
the supernatant in a sterile bottle.  I used this thing all of twice.


 
"Real" chemostats are either small enough to
be autocalved or have steam in place systems.  Some large ones also used
peractic acid to do CIP sanitation.

cleaning and sanitation are very important since you are adding lots of
air etc.  You are better off use a stirrer and a closed system to make a
starter unless you really want to pursue this.  


> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:11:10 -0400
> From: terry at brewfellows.com (Terry)
> Subject: Wyeast & Whitelabs
> 
> There has been recent discussion about Wyeasts attempts at locking up
> exclusives with brew shops.  Well, one development that came up today is
> that I was informed that my wholesaler will no longer be carrying Whitelabs
> yeast and that there is no longer any wholesaler carrying Whitelabs and I


Now is a good time for you to learn to culture your own yeast.  You could
spend some of that fedex money on buying some lab supplies etc.  And wiht
the increasingly shrink homebrew market how long is Wyeast and others
going to be able to offer 50 strains or whatever and not lose money?  I'll
bet 1056 is still the biggest seller.  The other small suppliers of yeast
are doing ti as a labor of love and to experiment.  I'm sure Dan McConnell
isn't making a profit.  So Get ahold of your local lab geek and learn the
basics.  And as I posted before ask the manufacturer about the qa/qc he
does and see who gives you a straight answer.  Just say no to wyeast.


Jim Liddil North Haven, CT



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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:34:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Lifer <jliferjr at yahoo.com>
Subject: Liver levels

Had a physical 2 yrs back and doc asked whether or not I drank
'excessively'.  No, I drink my homebrew,  10-12 oz per day on average,
sometimes up to 60 oz on a Weekend day.  Not heavy, no hard liquor, no
bing drinking.  Well, he had noticed the same elevations of an enzyme. 
I said ok, and let it go at that.  Perfectly healthy otherwise :)
John


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 09:57:50 -0700 
From: "Bayer, Mark A" <Mark.Bayer at JSF.Boeing.com>
Subject: carboy volume markers

collective homebrew conscience_

pete c wrote:

>For carboys, the office supply stores sell a marker that writes on glass
>(and can be rubbed off). Make sure the carboy is dry or the marker won't
>mark.

i used to have problems with the marks getting wiped off when the carboy got
wet on the outside during washing.  then i applied scotch tape over the
volume marks, and now the volume marks stay on a lot longer.  the tape
eventually peels off (after 3+ years - maybe some of the more heavy duty
clear tape would stay on longer), but the marks stay dry and last a lot
longer than with no tape.

brew hard,

mark bayer
stl mo


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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 13:12:39 -0500
From: "Christopher Farley" <chris at northernbrewer.com>
Subject: Re: retailers and suppliers


Scott Birdwell wrote:

> Marc Sedam wrote...
> <snip>
> I tried to resist this one, but couldn't.  So, what you're saying
> is that it's bad for Wyeast to undercut the competition based on
> cost alone?  I thought discussions a few months back said it was
> GREAT to undercut the competition based on price alone.
> <snip>
>
>> You missed the boat on this one.  Wyeast isn't trying to "undercut the
>> competition based on cost alone" here.  They aren't trying to beat White
>> Labs by undercutting them on price, they are pressuring retailers to
>> drop White Labs altogether by offering discounts on Wyeasts products.
>> These discounts are NOT to be based upon volume, but solely upon the
>> retailer agreeing NOT to handle their competitor.  I ran this one by my
>> attorney (an intellectual properties one at that. . .) and he agreed
>> that this isn't the most ethical practice, and it may or may not be
>> legal.  He indicated that this may, indeed, be illegal if the company
>> making the offer operates a virtual monopoly and is trying to eliminate
>> smaller competitors entirely.  Look, I'm not a lawyer, but this is, at
>> best, hardball, and, at worst, just plain sleazy.

In the interest of diffusing an escalating discussion in which Wyeast business
practices are now being described as "sleazy" and "illegal", I should mention
the standard HBD disclaimer that my experiences represent a single data point.
I've been contacted by a few other retailers who have said "Chris, you're
crazy, I sell Wyeast exclusively and I can assure you I don't get any
exclusive pricing!" Although I was indeed offered an unspecified discount in
exchange for dropping White Labs yeast, I don't want to give the impression
this is a widespread Wyeast pricing policy.

I talked with Ron Hartman today about LD Carlson's recent 'dumping' of White
Labs from their inventory. According to Hartman, it was a decision related to
keeping product fresh, and the difficulty of shipping fragile vials. Retailers
will certainly get better product if they deal with White Labs directly rather
than deal with a middleman.

Christopher Farley
Northern Brewer, Ltd.
Saint Paul, Minnesota
www.northernbrewer.com
(800) 681-2739




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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 15:38:28 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Whitelabs Yeast

Terry White ( terry at brewfellows.com ) noted that his distributer ( L D
Carlson) has discontinued carrying Whitelabs Yeast.  This is a blow for
many stores.  Shipping their yeast for my store was essentially free when

my order was combined with other stuff.  It could cost me $0.50 to $1.00
per vial to order it directly from CA depending on quantity.    


I needed an explination for my customers so I called Carlson.  They said
that due to shelf life considerations they were having a difficult time
maintaining the freshness / availability ratios so they had to 
discontinue
the line.  Also in my shipments I unfortunatly became accustomed to at
least one leaky vial that usually stained a few more vials. I don't 
believe
Carlson was under any pressure from any other yeast supplier.  I believe
that the product was too fragile to distribute that way.

I doubt that I or my customers can absorb the shipping costs.  It is a
vicious circle.  To get reasonable shipping costs, I have to order a lot.
 

Limited shelf life has risk. To compensate for the shipping and inventory

risk I have to raise prices which reduces demand.  Then I order less and
the per unit shipping costs go up and it sits on the shelf longer.  You 
get
the point. 


It was a nice product and I am going to miss it.

Dan

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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 17:13:50 -0500
From: "St. Patrick's" <stpats at bga.com>
Subject: barley covers

>From Thursday's digest

John_E_Schnupp wrote
	"The subscription probably barley covers the  shipping,..."

because shipping costs a tun, or, on the utter hand, perhops it does.

Austin  hosts an event called the O. Henry Pun Off every May.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/travel/DailyNews/ohenry.html

Lynne O'Connor

St. Patrick's of Texas
Brewers Supply
http://www.stpats.com
stpats at bga.com
 512-989-9727
 512-989-8982 facsimile


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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 09:27:16 +0930
From: "Thomas D. Hamann" <tdhamann at senet.com.au>
Subject: a bigger fridge


Have got an old fridge that I use for lagering and regular beer fridgery but
 it just aint big enough, have just read how a brewer built a
 styrofoam-lined timber box to replace his fridge door.    Is there a
 formula I need to use that will tell me how big this `box' is allowed to
 get before the compressor etc. can't handle the increased size?

Many thanks in advance,  Thomas.



 -
ASGARD HEIMBRAUEREI HAHNDORF
      ...l, Met und Apfelweine...
                   
         
 





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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 20:00:01 EDT
From: BillPierce at aol.com
Subject: Cleaning Counterflow Chillers

I have read a number of posts addressing concerns about the cleaning of 
counterflow chillers.  They were enough to get me thinking about the 
condition of my own three-year-old counterflow chiller, which has chilled 
about 80 batches of beer and mead during that time.  I have not had any 
infections, but one can't be too careful.

My normal cleaning procedure has been to flush it with hot water and 
detergent within 30 minutes of each use, then rinse with 140 F tap water and 
store it sealed with Iodophor sanitizer solution.  But I was beginning to 
wonder if it might harbor hidden deposits.

I decided to give it a thorough cleaning.  I prepared a two-gallon solution 
of PBW (a buffered alkaline cleaner from Five Star--no affiliation, etc.) and 
140 F water according to directions and circulated it through the chiller for 
60 minutes using my magnetic drive pump.  At the end of the PBW flush I 
rinsed thoroughly with hot water and again refilled the chiller with Iodophor 
solution before storing it.

I was afraid that I might find "chunks" of material that were flushed from 
the chiller.  However, the only thing I could see was a slight greenish cast 
to the PBW solution, I assume the result of hop material that had adhered to 
the interior of the copper tubing.

My conclusion is that a thorough cleaning with a caustic solution is a good 
idea periodically, but normal cleaning with detergent and a hot water flush 
is sufficient for everyday use.  I don't believe there needs to be undue 
concern about cleaning of counterflow chillers.

Bill Pierce
Cellar Door Homebrewery
Des Moines, IA


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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 20:10:59 EDT
From: JPullum127 at aol.com
Subject: soybeans

i just heard something on the news tonight that a des moines  iowa brewery 
was using 15% soybean meal in its mash . i didn't catch the name of the 
place.  report said unidentified "taste testers" found the beer to be " 
verysmooth, rich and less bitter" besides the fact that i like "bitter" 
ie;hoppy beers has anyone any further info on this or tried it themselves?


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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 18:34:41 -0700
From: Jonathan Peakall <jpeakall at mcn.org>
Subject: Fruit fly in starter

A quick question:

I had stepped a wyeast pack up into a quart container, and was pitching it
into a 1/2 gallon when I noticed a fruit fly in the starter.

So the question is, as I don't have easy access to a home-brew store (40+
mile drive, I live in the boonies) and I want to brew, am I crazy to risk
that starter on a ten gallon batch? The fly was probably in the jug of
water I made the wort for the starter from, and hence was probably boiled.

TIA,

Jonathan Peakall

********************************************

"I don't feel we did wrong in taking this great country away from
them. There were great numbers of people who needed new land, and
the Indians were selfishly trying to keep it for themselves."
 -- John Wayne

********************************************




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Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 21:09:56 -0400
From: "Dave Thomson" <dlt at ici.net>
Subject: Drilling a fridge

I am in the process of setting up my extra fridge for kegging.  I want to
drill a hole in the side for my co2 line.  I call the local repair shop and
they said "well drill a small hole and see what happens"  Yeah thanks guys!
Anyway it a Hotpoint fridge with the freezer on top there are no visible
coils on the back of the fridge. Is it possible to drill a hole?  The fridge
is also used to hold food for large gatherings and as extra freezer space,
thus my wife would be rather unhappy if I destroy the fridge!

Dave Thomson




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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 02:56:12 +0000
From: William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Kettles

I receive a catalog that offers for sale about everything in the world.  I
have no connection to the company and can't vouch for the quality but they
have quite a deal on stainless steel kettles.  

Northern Tool & Equipment
www.northerntool.com
fax 1-612-894-0083

1999 fall/winter master catalog, page260

4 piece stainless steel stockpot set
Consists of one each 8, 12, 16 and 20 quart ss pots with lids
Item 23954-C141
$ 49.99 plus shipping (weight 15 pounds)

It's probably not Polarware but the price is right.

        Bill Frazier
        Johnson County, Kansas



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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 00:48:36 EDT
From: Davemundo at aol.com
Subject: Kegging - Too Much Foam!

Just got a kegging setup (5 gal. corny) and I force carbonated my first 
batch.  When I dispense the beer, I'm getting practically all foam.

I tried using smaller and smaller amounts of pressure to dispense, but it 
doesn't help.  When I (completely) depress my tap, the beer comes out very 
foamy, but with pockets of air as well (it kind of spurts out foam, then 
nothing, then foam, then nothing, etc.).

Any suggestions as to what I'm doing wrong??

Thanks gang -
Dave
davemundo at aol.com  


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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 00:58:16 -0700
From: "Scott Church" <schurch at gte.net>
Subject: Nitrogen

Hi all,

Am I correct in thinking the following?

Increased % nitrogen in the grain will add to head retention and
"creaminess".

        It may cause haze problems.

       Will increase the % of poorly soluble proteins and polypeptide.
                    (which will cause a lower extract yield)


Scott

"Beer. The bearer of humanity(spelled h_u_m_i_l_i_t_y). Get really drunk and
act like a fool!......It's good for the soul."







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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 00:21:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: homebrew cooking - beer baked beans


No, I haven't given up posting recipes, just slowing down in my old
age.  For you newcomers, the past recipes are archived in the digest
as well as on my web pages - www.best.com/~smurman/zymurgy.

I originally intended to use my pressure cooker for this recipe.  I
figured many of us homebrewers had one, and could use it for something
other than sterilizing petri dishes.  After trying to simulate baked
beans using a recipe that came with my cooker I can honestly say don't
waste your time.  It was a total loss.  

Here's a more traditional recipe,

1 lb. Great Northern Beans or Navy Beans.
22 oz. homebrew - a nice chocolate porter would seem natural for this
recipe.

Cover the beans with beer and soak in whatever dish you plan to bake
for 24 hrs.

1/2 to 1 lb. pork country ribs or similar cheap cut of pork

cook the ribs for 1/2 hour at 400F, then trim away the fat and bone,
dice into small pieces, and mix with the beans.

1/2 white onion - dice, and lightly carmelize onion and add to beans.

1 cup pan drippings or 1 cup stock or 2 cubes of bullion - if you
don't know what drippings are, ask someone over 50.  add to beans.

dissolve in 12 oz. homebrew: 1/3 cup (unsulphered) molasses, 2
tbsp. sugar, 2 tsp. ground mustard.  add to beans.

Another option to try is substituting liquid malt extract for the
molasses and sugar.

So now you should have a large baking dish full of beans, beer, pork,
onions, sugar, and stuff.  cover, and bake at 250F for about 7-9
hours.  Most recipes say to remove the cover for the last hour, but
i've found this is more harmful than helpful.  Your call.  Make sure
you don't run out of liquid while it's baking.  Try not to start any
kitchen fires as well (caveat brewer)

This turns out surprisingly well, and there are probably infinte
variations of sugar levels, etc. to try.  It makes enough to feed
about 8 as a side dish, and should freeze well.

This recipe uses a lot of beer, and extended contact times as well, so
more of the beer flavor/aroma/essence will be imparted than with other
recipes.  I wouldn't use your blue-ribbon porter, but don't use some
starter-waste either.  buon gusto.

 -SM-






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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 12:34:07 +0200 
From: "Campbell, Paul R SSI-TSEA-A" <Paul.R.Campbell at is.shell.com>
Subject: Fullers ESB

In HBD#3125 Jeff further diminishes my need to buy Roger's book ;^) by
providing the following extract:

>OG 1054 ABV 5.5%
>Ingredients: Alexis and Chariot pale malt (90%), crystal malt (3%), flaked
>maize (7%), caramel.  31 units of colour.  Challenger, Northdown and Target
>hops for bitterness,
>challenger, Northdown and Goldings for aroma; whole and pellet hops, dry
>hopped.  35 units of bitterness.

A lot more detail than I've seen in the past, which raises questions:

Does anyone know anything about the characteristics of Alexis and Chariot
pale malt. I've seen Chariot described as a *pilsner* malt, and know of
a few beers using Alexis (a modern pale ale malt). Is the Alexis anything
special, or just easier to farm? I think I might try some pilsner malt in
my next attempt, just to see what happens. 

Bill Frazier (with whom I've corresponded with in the past on this subject)
points out the *caramel* which I too was surprised about. I recall a
certain brand of liquid gravy browning being composed solely of caramel
(according to the ingredient list on the bottle). This is quoted as a
colouring additive for brown ales in a couple of my older homebrew books.
I'd never considered it added much to the taste, but then in what quantity?
If the Chariot is a pale lager malt, then colour compensation with the
caramel is likely? Especially considering the (surprisingly?) low
percentage of crystal. I had been working more at 84/8/8 for the malt bill.
If it had not been for the caramel (I'm assuming, of course it *does* have
a significant effect on colour) then guestimating the balance of Alexis to
Chariot might have been easier.

I've always just assumed Marris Otter (although I understand that it is
now only grown to contract, so is rarer here than I'd thought).

- -----------------------------------------
I'm sure Bill (amongst others) got a laugh from:

>If Fuller's doesn't use it, maybe you don't need it either?

Pretty much what I said on the subject of using Cara Munich and Cara
Vienne!

Thwaaap. (picture right foot hitting the back of the head). I asked for
that.
- -----------------------------------------

Jeff goes on to give an alternative approach:

>I wonder if your mash schedule might be a place to make adjustments.  A
>straight infusion at maybe 151-153F followed by a short rest at 158-162.

I tend to aim at a single temperature rest at 155F hoping that this will
give me the necessary FG of (1.013-1.015). It doesn't.

Mark Bayer quoted joe power of siebel:
>My critique to the statement "I saccarify all my beers at 158F to promote 
>more body, mouthfeel and sweetness" would be "You're wasting your time" 
>(assuming you're using North American Malt).  You will need a higher 
>temperature than that to get a significant increase in unfermentable body, 
>as high as 165F.

I assume this applies to Marris Otter also? Perhaps I need those higher
rest temperatures regardless of the glyco-protein factor for head stand.

learning, learning, learning...... thanks to you guys!

Regards,
Paul Campbell 
Aberdeen

e-mail: Paul.R.Campbell at is.shell.com


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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 12:41:31 +0200 
From: "Campbell, Paul R SSI-TSEA-A" <Paul.R.Campbell at is.shell.com>
Subject: Wheat Malt in Ale

Many thanks for all the replies on this, I'll try and reply to those
who also asked questions - just as soon as I catch up with my in-tray!

To summarise:

Several use wheat malt in british ales and beers, but most favour 
torrified wheat.

I'd heard of the latter and tried it in the past, so I now just have
to finish what I started and go for it (but not in my Fullers clones,
honest!).

Cheers!

Paul Campbell
Aberdeen
e-mail: Paul.R.Campbell at is.shell.com


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Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 08:10:35 -0500 (EST)
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Disappointed in Hops Restaurant....

Date sent:  3-SEP-1999 08:02:24 
Perhaps it was in part due to the fact that I had just returned from a very 
good British Pub...but my recent visit to Hops was rather disappointing.  
Are they all the same?  This one used dry (Nottingham) yeast, claimed to 
have a RIMS system, which the brewer in training couldn't explain, and the 
brews really tasted sort-of-like one would expect with a home-brewers first 
extract batch.....needless to say I was disappoited.  This was a 7 barrel 
system, and I think that thye could produce real good beer...if they only 
wished to.  

I guess the thing that put the icing on the cake was that they used 6 row 
as a base malt, and when I asked the brewer in traiing if they used a 
protein rest, he said no...that customers really couldn't tell the 
difference, and that one could make huge errors, and that the beer still 
came out ok, and besides...most people didn't know the difference!  Well, 
it just MAY be the case that most / many wouldnt know the difference, but 
to me this is the wrong attitude for a brewery/ pub to espouse...

Enough said...I hope that they are not all the same.
 ..Darrell
<Terminally INtermediate Home-brewer....who has been cursed with discerning
taste-buds>
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/
_/Darrell Leavitt                              _/
_/INternet: leavitdg at splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu _/
_/AMpr.net: n2ixl at amgate.net.plattsburgh.edu   _/
_/AX25 : n2ixl  at  kd2aj.#nny.ny.usa            _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/


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Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 08:37:32 -0400
From: Julio Canseco <jcanseco at arches.uga.edu>
Subject: Re: CO2 "not for human consumption:

Greetings, just wanted to thank Mark Sedam, Jeff, Nathan Kanous, Tony
Verhulst, Paul Kensler, Don Million, Ryan and Art McGregor for their
responses to my question. Without a miss they all  unanimously  told me
the same thing; there is oil in CO2 cartridges for BB guns. Needlesss to
say I didn't use them. Instead I did go to a HB store and bought the
right stuff. I was beginning to have withdrawal symptoms with minis full
of beer and no way to serve them. BTW at this HB store I saw a gadget to
dispense beer from mini kegs without CO2. This gadget fits inside the
bung (tap) but then you are supposed to turn the mini upside down. This
gadget  has four little legs and a spout that comes out of the bottom of
the mini (once turned upside down) and dispense beer just as you would
dispense water out of a cooler. I am having thoughts of a cask
conditoned ale. Has anybody used such a contraption? Looks like it may
work and it is under $7.00.

Salud,                julio in athens, georgia



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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 08:39:45 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: using fruit in beer


In HBD#3127 Don Glass wants to know about using fruit in beer.

> 1. Should I use extract or can I use raw or frozen fruits. 
If you use raw, you should freeze it first to burst the cells and make
the sugars more available to the yeast.  I personally don't like using
extract - it just doesn't seem the same to me.

> 2.At what point should I add them...primary...secondary.... before
bottling? 
See this link for more details :

http://www.bodensatz.com/homebrew/recipes/fruit/

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration	613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks		All opinions expressed are my own



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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 08:23:36 -0500
From: "Jim Hodge" <jdhodge at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: 1999 Spooky Brew Review Homebrew Competition

The Chicago Beer Society announces its last homebrew competition of the
Millenium, the 1999 Spooky Brew Review to be held Saturday, October 30, 1999
at O'Grady's Brewery and Pub, Arlington Heights, IL.

This BJCP-sanctioned event will feature all of the usual BJCP style
categories, plus two 'bonus' categories;  Spooky (scariest) and Smashed
Pumpkin (Worst of Show) (this is a Halloween competition after all)

Entries, judges, stewards, and general rubber-neckers are encouraged and
welcomed.  More details and downloadable entry forms can be found at:

http://www.mcs.net/~shamburg/cbs/spooky99.html

Questions, comments, etc. should be directed to:

Jim Hodge
jdhodge at worldnet.att.net
(847) 679-3829: voice
(847) 329-8691: fax





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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 06:47:46 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: CO2 "not for human consumption"?

>box "NOT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION" yes, they shouted it too. What gives? I
>thought CO2 was CO2. I got the box that didn't have any warnings (made
>in USA) but before I put it in I would like to hear from the brewborg.

CO2 is CO2, BUT many times lubricating oil is added to the CO2 cartridges
for air actuated equipment (pellet guns, paint ball guns ...)  These
devices have internal moving parts that need to stay lubricated and adding
the oil to the CO2 is one way to do it.

Now you know.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Dirty Laundry Brewery
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:09:10 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Mild recipe: was Re:  Ashburn(e?) Malt

Roger Ayotte <RCAYOT at solutia.com> asked

>Anyone use this new malt form Briess?  This is also called "ESB"
>malt.  <snip> I was thinking of trying a 10g batch just using the
>     Ashburn malt, and seing how it came out.  I like medium dry,
>toasty,
>     nutty, with hop aroma and medium bitterness.  any suggestions?

I like this malt a lot.  It has become popular with AABG members as a base
malt for British ales; we've gone through quite a bit of it.  I made a mild
using it as a base malt (and I didn't know its name had changed)

7.75 gal. Mild:

8.5 lbs Briess Ashburne
0.5 lbs Victory
0.75 lbs Briess (?) chocolate
1 lb. Durst 90L crystal
0.25 lbs torrefied wheat

Fuggles 1 hr. to 20 IBU
E.K. Goldings 15 minutes for 4 IBU

Fermented with Ridley's B111 yeast (YCKC).

This turned out very nicely.  When it was very young it was a little
roastier than I wanted, but after a few weeks, this mellowed and melded
with the rest of the flavors.  A very good warm weather ale.  I don't know
how much the flavors of the chocolate, Victory and crystal malt may have
overwhelmed the probably more subtle flavors of Ashburne.

I hope you'll do 100% Ashburne and report back.  I'm curious.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:32:51 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: The Flavor

>William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net> writes regarding Fuller's
>ESB recipe:

>NOTE:  The key ingredient mentioned above is CARAMEL.
<snip>
>So, what is the CARAMEL and
>where does it come from.

Let me second this.  Since I posted this recipe, I feel like there is some
imperitive for me to answer.  Unfortunately, all I can say is that I've
long had the same question (and same feeling that it is an important
ingredient).  I think it is called brewers caramel and it is used for
darkening beers, but I wonder if it also has a flavor contribution that I
don't think can be duplicated with malts.  I also have caramelized sugar in
a pan and agree, there doesn't seem to be any flavor that carries on to the
beer.

Dave Line (Big Book of Brewing) suggests that flavor is not a part:
"Caramel is the name given to sugar that has been heated in the presence of
acids, alkalies, and ammonium salts, to form a soluble brown, bitter
substance tasting of burnt sugar.  Its prime use in beermaking is as a
colouring agent.   Good caramel should possess highly concentrated
colouring matter so that the amount added to shade a beer will not affect
its flavor."

I hope someone else can help out here.  A.J. - did you discover anything
while roaring around Yorkshire on your chopped Harley visiting breweries
last spring?  Any Brits know?

Jeff (not big or hairy)

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 08:43:43 -0600
From: Troy Kase <kasetroy at isu.edu>
Subject: Off Flavor

In my most recent brew and most every brew that I have ever done, I get
an off flavor that I do not know what it is and I hope that someone can
help me out.

The flavor can only be described as a slight rubbery taste and is only
recognizable for the first few drinks.  It usually goes away after about
3 months of aging, but I can't imagine that I should have to wait this
long.  I have wondered if this flavor is oxidation or from low quality
yeast.

Also, thanks to everyone for the past help that I have received.

Troy Kase



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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:27:33 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Caramel flavor and where does it come from.

Bill Frazier asked:
        
 So, what is the CARAMEL and where does it come from.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------

Well, I'm not sure about FESB but have you ever tried the Zebra "Classic
Lager Beer".  It has the most intense caramel flavor I have ever tasted.  I
talked to a person who said he is the grandson of 80+ year old Virginia
"Grandma" Decker. He said she still oversees the brewing.  He also said
they use no artificial flavoring.  Just lots of caramel malt.  They also
use the same yeast that Schmitt's beer uses (or is it used; is Schmitt's
still around?).  He said they ferment at temperatures in the 80s F.  They
have a web site (that I have never visited) at www.zebrabeer.com.  Their
label mentions "Madcap Craftbrew & Bottleworks"  Longview, TX.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY
0 Degrees 30.21 Min North, 4 Degrees 05.11 Min. East of Jeff Renner


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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 09:00:52 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: RE: CO2 "not for human consumption"?

Art,

>I would be interested if anyone knows of an alternative (cheaper)
>supplier/source of 12 gram "food grade" CO2 cartridges

Try these guys:  Leland Ltd, http://www.lelandltd.com

I found them while looking for a some large CO2 cartridges for a
tire inflation device I have.  They make all sorts of sizes
of these cartridges.  I got a reply from them and their
Customer Service Dept is 908-668-1008.

They might have what you're looking for.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Dirty Laundry Brewery
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




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Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 10:18:22 -0700
From: Dawn Watkins <Dawn.Watkins at wcom.com>
Subject: RE: CO2 "not for human consumption"?

Just a thought on the CO2 subject...

Didn't we just hear in the news about a problem in Europe recently where
many people got sick from drinking Coca Cola? I think the problem was linked
to CO2 being used that was not food grade.

Dawn Watkins
Wyterayven at aol.com



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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 15:20:56 -0400 
From: "Spinelli, Mike" <paa3983 at exmail.dscp.dla.mil>
Subject: Beer Stein Cages

Beer Brethren,

Does anyone have any info. on where to buy/how to make those metal Beer
Stein Cages/Lockers that are common in many Bavarian taverns?

A restaurant friend would like to install a stein locker to house approx. 50
steins. 

Thanks

Mike Spinelli

Mikey's Monster Brew
Cherry Hill NJ


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Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 13:24:43 -0500
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Re: HSA

Al...

"I believe that HSA should not be ignored among homebrewrs.  I'm trying
to figure out how damaging it is and what factors surrounding it are
important.  So far, everyone regarding HSA seems to be polarised into
the two extremes: it's critically damaging... or... it's benign.

The only possible reason to believe that it's damning is because a certain
expert did some experiments and wrote an article which became gospel.

I have yet to read of anyone repeating the experiment and corroborating the
danger.

I have long ago written it off as a "Fixily".  That is a lot like a momily but
is more than likely true but totally irrlevant to home brewing.

As I have always held George in great awe, I have always made efforts (small
ones) to eliminate factors that cause splashing of hot wort.  It just feels
good.  It was not until another expert whom I also hold in awe (if for no other
reason than for having to deal with triplets) stated similar opinions that I was
willing to speak my peace.

George is too busy to read our drivvel anyway.

js

p.s.  Sorry Al but I just reread your statement and missed the "not" but I am
too lazy to rewrite my drivel.

jjs

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