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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Scorched Pilsner (Danny Johnson)
  Mini Kegs vs. full kegging system (KMacneal)
  Some water help needed (dtfox)
  on hsa from a confused person (Robin Griller)
  gelatinization (Marc Sedam)
  Gluten Free Brewing Web Site ("Poirier, Bob")
  The AHA (Ken Schramm)
  Interesting beer patents (Jim & Paula Adwell)


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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:21:11 -0400
From: Danny Johnson <shag at ipass.net>
Subject: Scorched Pilsner

I brewed a German Pilsner and scorched the wort (under false bottom)
sometime during the boil. I reluctantly sent the wort on to ferment. 
After 2 weeks and now at 1.014, it has a noticeable smoke/charred flavor
and aroma.  Will these subside or diminish after a few weeks of
lagering?  My main concern now is not about style targets but will it be
drinkable with 3-4 weeks lagering or should I expect the worse an pour
out the beer now, save my kegs and fridge space? I intend to brew
another batch and ferment on the yeast cake of the scorched batch.


Thanks
Dan Johnson
Raleigh, NC


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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:39:28 EDT
From: KMacneal at aol.com
Subject: Mini Kegs vs. full kegging system

In a message dated 9/10/1999, 2:14:25 PM, Dave Burley 
<Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>  writes:
<<Dan Cutcher is thinking about going to 5 liter
minikegs for his next brew.  Based on my
experience and lots of other comments here,
I suggest you skip the 5 l kegs and go directly
to a proper system with 3 and 5 gallon
Cornelius style (soda pop) kegs and a
carbon dioxide tank and regulator.  Final
cost is about the same and the results far
superior as far as controlling the product.>>

Final cost between the two systems is about the same?  Sorry, but in my book 
<$75 is not the same as >$200.  The 5l minikegs also take up much less space 
and are more portable.

I've been using the minikegs for a few years.  The only drawback I've found 
is that I the CO2 cartridges do leak enough that I have to be diligent in 
putting new ones in if the beer is in the fridge for more than a few days.

Keith MacNeal


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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 11:44:12 -0700
From: dtfox at juno.com
Subject: Some water help needed

Hey water chemistry gurus out there, I hope one of you can help me with
this. I called my local water department recently and got this info (all 
numbers in parts per million):

Cl             5
Na            7	
SO4         0	
Mg   less than 0.01
Total hardness: 74
pH:        7.25

They don't run tests to determine temporary hardness or calcium content
of the water. Is there any way to guesstimate these levels or simple
tests that can be performed to determine them?

Proost,

Dan Fox
Lacey, WA

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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 14:50:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robin Griller <rgriller at chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: on hsa from a confused person


Hi all,

The recurring discussion of hsa has confused me in one very important way:
every person who claims to have had hsa-damaged beer describes the beer as
having a papery or cardboard flavour, and some add in loss of hop or malt
flavour as well. However, what reading I have done suggests that these are
characteristics of *post* fermentation oxydation, *not* hsa. For example,
in the very recently published edition of New Brewing Lager Beer, Greg
Noonan attributes two flavour impacts to hsa: roughness and astringency,
but he does not ascribe cardboard flavours to hsa, rather describing it as
a result of oxydation. Similarly, in a recent speach in
Montreal (see CABA (Canadian Amateur Brewers' Association) Times most
recent issue) Noonan described the flavour impact of hsa as being
astringency: 'He [Noonan] described the hsa flavour as a kind of
astringency that some misidentify as bitterness. The key is that
bitterness is perceived on the tongue and the throat while astringency is
a broad based taste on the sides of the cheeks and all through the
throat.'(p. 9)  So, given that cardboard is known to be a product
of post-ferment oxydation, I have three questions, which I am hoping those
better acquainted with the research literature can answer for me:

(1) Does it not appear that people who think they have experienced hsa
problems have actually experienced post-ferment oxydation problems?

(2) Given that homebrewers have a difficult time, often, pinpointing
the source of negative flavour impacts, even if hsa can cause the same
flavour impacts as post-ferment oxydation, how would people know which
problem they have? 

(3) Particularly if the brewer filters and artificially carbonates the
beer leaving no yeast to deal with even minute traces of oxygen
introduced after fermentation, does it not seem likely that people are
misidentifying the source of the problem?

I'm hoping that someone can explain this to me so that I can stop seeing
the claims to hsa problems as faintly ridiculous misidentifications of
problems in the brewing process introduced by copying stupid big brewer
techniques such as filtration. I apologize for not providing
complete citations, which I can post should anyone want them, and am, of
course, not suggesting that the book and speech cited possess the truth,
but am rather using them as a way to attempt to get questions
answered/discussed.

Robin





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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 15:00:11 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: gelatinization

Any flour needs to be gelatinized before it can be utilized fully
in a mash.  The milling process specifically tries to avoid
gelatinization as (to be technical) it just makes a muck out of
everything.  Traditional milling doesn't include "defatting" per
se, but it's goal is to decrease the amount of oil carried over
to the flour.  To be called "flour" a product has to fall within
a range of oil content (10%-14%--although it's a QDA).  Soy
starch would be better, since the term "starch" in the food arena
means that it has very little oil.  Hence corn starch and corn
flour.

Among other things done in a past life, I once did some
small-scale corn milling...the things they'll pay you for.

 -Marc Sedam



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Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1999 13:59:56 -0500
From: "Poirier, Bob" <Bob_Poirier at adc.com>
Subject: Gluten Free Brewing Web Site

> Greetings!
> 
> There's been a lot of traffic lately regarding using various forms of soy as 
> an adjunct in beer.  Someone (and I can't remember who, sorry) mentioned a 
> relative who suffers from Celiac disease (gluten intolerance?), and was 
> interested in brewing some homebrew specifically for this person.  Check out:
> http://www.fortunecity.com/boozers/brewerytap/555/gfbeer/gfbeer.htm.  
> It's a website dedicated to the challenge of gluten free brewing.  Maybe it 
> will offer some help...
> 
> Bob P.
> East Haven, CT


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Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 13:06:20 -0400
From: Ken Schramm <Ken.Schramm at oakland.k12.mi.us>
Subject: The AHA

Brett Spivy asks why he should join the AHA.

Brett, you should join the AHA because the AHA is the only organization
that represents the interests of homebrewers.  Because the AHA has brought
many issues in homebrewing to our attention. The first time I heard HSA
mentioned it was at an AHA convention in Denver in 1994.  The first time I
met Ray Daniels, Larry Bell, George Fix, Dennis Davidson, Byron Burch, and
Fred Eckhart: all at AHA conventions.  The first time I met Bill Pfeiffer
was because I read about him in Zymurgy.  He taught me about IBU's,
decoctions and beer judging.  I read about the AABG in Zymurgy, and they
have been my brewing stalwarts for ten years now. Through the AABG (and
indirectly the AHA) I met Dan McConnell, who introduced me to more strains
of yeast than I can recall.  The AHA got me in touch with the CBS, the
finest bunch of guys I know who don't live in Michigan.  And the members of
the Board, who are really good people. Alberta and Jackie.  So many other
people I who have a spot in my heart now I couldn't begin to mention them
all.

Dan and I did a presentation at the National Conference in Denver on mead,
featuring a horizontal tasting of identical recipe meads made with

a) seven different honeys and the same yeast and
b) six different yeasts, but the same honey.

Two years later we did the same type of presentation with 13 different
fruit beers.

That same year, Jim Liddil did a spectacular presentation on pLambic
making.  He won brewer of the year with his gueuze that year.  Mighty
damned impressive.  I tasted it twice and was blown away both times.

In Denver, I attended "The Confessions of Two Bitter Men."  Great
presentation.  I have been a bitter fan since.

I went to the most extensive Lambic tasting I've had (outside of Belgium)
at the 92 conference in Milwaukee.

Who else is offering you those kind of learning/tasting opportunities?

This year, I have asked Morten Mielgaard (you know, the guy with the flavor
wheel) to speak at the convention in Detroit in '00.  He is probably the
preeminent beer flavor authority in this country.  He has given me a
tentative commitment to speak.

I'll admit, I got soured on the AHA at the New Orleans conference, because
I thought we busted our ass for them and weren't treated well at the
convention, and I'm pretty sure Jim felt the same way.  And I felt that for
Charlie to talk about all the sunny exotic places he had taken his homebrew
(while collecting a salary I was supporting) was a slap in my face while I
was staying in a room with three other guys after driving to New Orleans
with eleven kegs of beer to make a presentation.

On the other hand, if things are screwed up, we have to change them.  We
can't just whine away and hope that someone else will look after our
interests.  It's not "love it ot leave it," it's "love it or change it."
So I joined the AHA Board of Advisors when they asked. And, no, I don't get
paid. It is incumbent on the membership to make the AHA what it can be.
That may mean separating it from Charlie and the AoB, or any of a host of
other things. WE need to see to it that Zymurgy has what we need in it.  WE
need to make sure that the convention is fun and worthwhile.  Most
importantly, we need to work to see that the AHA represents the interests
of homebrewers.

I am working with a bunch of dedicated people right now to make the '00
Conference a success.  To those out there who feel that the AHA has not
been offering them information or services that they want or need: tell us
what you want and I'll work at trying to make it happen.  You tell me what
you want to learn, who you want to meet, what you want to drink. I'll work
hard at arranging it.

We have an organization now.  If we keep standing on the sidelines, saying
"read my mind, and give me what I want, and I'm not going to join or do
anything until you make me happy," then we won't have an organization.
Then ALL the magazines will be gone, and all the instiututional knowledge
will dry up, and all of our potential lobbying power will diffuse, and we
can sit and whine, proud of the fact that we killed our national guild.
Maybe the AHA does need to be ripped from the hands of Charlie and the AoB.
Or maybe it can be rebuilt from where it sits now.  I know for a fact that
it needs to be more democratic, and to treat its speakers with more
respect..  I for one, can't be satisfied to stand on the sidelines and yell
taunts.  I know what I want: a functioning, educational and gratifyingly
social national organization, and I am willing to work for it.

Care to join me?

Ken Schramm
AHA Board of Advisors
Troy, Michigan




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Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 15:19:43 -0400
From: Jim & Paula Adwell <jimala at servtech.com>
Subject: Interesting beer patents

I've been meaning to post this for a while; finally got around to it.
Here's a few patents that interested me:

4,389,421	June 21, 1983
	Method for controlling light stability in malt beverages
	(cardamom and other substance protect beer from skunking)
4,754,698   July 5, 1988      
	Home brewing apparatus 
	(it's a RIMS!)
5,811,144   September 22, 1998 
	Beer having increased light stability and process of making
	(protecting beer from skunking with light !?!)
4,721,621   January 26, 1988
	Process for the production of high extract-to-alcohol beers
	(making low-alcohol beer by controlling mash temps)
4,622,224   November 11, 1986
	Preparation of wort extracts
	(much the same idea as 4,721,621; interesting reading)

You can search for these patents and others at the US Patent &
trademark website:

http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html

Have fun,
Cheers, Jim
Jim's Brewery Pages:
http://home.ptdprolog.net/~jimala/brewery/


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