---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Glass sight for hot liquor tank (DEE DUB)
  Dunkelweizen Grain Bill? (phil sides jr)
  lambic faq (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Memphis, TN beer leads ("Bruce & Amber Carpenter")
  MALT Competition (Harold Dowda)
  ... for tat ("David Kerr")
  Boinking  Minikegs (Dan Listermann)
  Fw: Yeast numbers ("Alan Meeker")
  Blue Bottles ("Peter J. Calinski")
  CABA's Brew Your Own Beer Seminar A Great Success (Darryl Newbury)
  GABF ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Re: BT back issues (John_E_Schnupp)
  Iron, Big Starters (Dave Burley)
  Snazzy blue bottles... (Victor Macias)
  Blue Bottles (Chuck Cubbler)
  Re: minis and sodas (smurman)
  Zymurgy /infamous Bottle Opener Issue ("Donald D. Lake")
  The First Annual Blue Ridge Brew Off ("Jay and Arlene Adams")
  Mini-kegs vs bottling ("Donald D. Lake")
  BT Back Issues... (pbabcock)
  Cobalt blue bottles: And the winner is... ("Ed D'Anna")
  Elderberries (hal)
  Tube Bending ("Rod Prather")
  Brews in Tulsa ("Rod Prather")


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 22:27:43 -0700
From: dwhitwell at compmh.org (DEE DUB)
Subject: Glass sight for hot liquor tank

I am converting a Sanke keg to a hot liquor tank. I have purchased a
glass sight and a thermometer to mount to the side of the tank, and have
two questions:
1) I would like to avoid the welding and just drill holes and use nylon
washers on the fittings. Is this kosher, or are there probs with this?
2) the glass sight is mounted between two brass valves. I've heard about
lead leeching into wort...does this pose much of a problem for the HLT,
given that the only water that goes through the valves are the small
amount needed to fill the sight glass?

If you respond privately, please use my home email:
dwhitwell at foxcomm.net

Brew On!
David


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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 02:11:23 -0400
From: phil sides jr <psides at carl.net>
Subject: Dunkelweizen Grain Bill?

A question for the German Wheat experts...  I have been brewing a Weizen
that is quite good with the following grain bill (10 gallons):
10# Wheat Malt
9# Pale Malt
1# Six Row

I want to try my hand at a Dunkelweizen now and my thought was to to
leave the Wheat the same and replace the Pale and Six Row with Munich
and Vienna.  If this is a viable option, what quantities should I use?
Also, light or dark Munich or both?

Phil Sides, Jr.
Concord, NH
- --
Macht nicht o'zapft ist, Prost!




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Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 23:51:42 -0700
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: lambic faq

There have been 2 lambic questions in the last 2 days.  Allow me to put in
the occaisional plug for the lambic faq that I host:
http://www.stanford.edu/~jeremybb/lambic/lambic.html
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu
http://www.stanford.edu/~jeremybb


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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 06:57:46 -0500
From: "Bruce & Amber Carpenter" <alaconn at arkansas.net>
Subject: Memphis, TN beer leads

Greetings,

I am off to Memphis, Tennessee and a couple of nights on Beale Street the
weekend of Oct. 15-17. Any suggestions for a good beer hunter? Private email
fine.

Thanks,
Bruce


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Date:  7 Oct 99 08:49:39 EDT
From: Harold Dowda <hdowda at netscape.net>
Subject: MALT Competition

Anyone have any info on the MALT competition in Asheville, NC?  HEard 
there
was to be one in November?

____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at 
http://webmail.netscape.com.

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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:31:19 -0400
From: "David Kerr" <dkerr at semc.org>
Subject: ... for tat

Mark warns:
>A word of caution on elderberries: some people are allergic to
>elderberries. It also contains a substance which can be lactating.

Maybe all of you home-grown hop pickers and hop-heads can earn some
extra income as wet nurses?

Dave Kerr - Needham, MA "Bartolo who?"
"I could never be a woman - I'd spend my days sitting around, playing
with my breasts" - Steve Martin



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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:39:01 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Boinking  Minikegs

Pat  Babcock ( pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com) writes:<

 Anyway, some of the "older-timers" may be reminded of the "boinked keg"
discussions a few years back (search thearchives around '94 through '96 
for
the word "boink"). If you naturally condition in the keg, or the kegged
beer wasn't yet done and takes off in the mini, it's life (and ability to

stand upright) is severely reduced.>

This was a severe problem with minikegs along with the leaky and fragile
German taps.  An artical in Zymurgy showed a method of building a 
pressure
relief valve into the hard plastic part of the bung so excess pressure
could be released. We now produce this design.  The minikegs will "boink"

in the pressure range of about 60 psi.  Phil's Relieph Bung starts to
release pressure at about 30 psi and will continue to release pressure
until the pressure falls to about 20 psi.  Phil's Relieph Bung is meant 
to
protect the minikeg from over pressure only.  It is not intended to 
control
carbonation levels.

Check out the "Philtap" at listermann.com.  It is a minikeg tap that does

not leak and won't fall apart when dropped.  Further it can be used with
the keg on its side so it fits on a lower shelf of the fridge to enhance
spousal acceptance.

Dan Listermann   dan at listermann.com  72723.1707 at compuserve.com

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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:51:57 -0400
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Fw: Yeast numbers


Subject: Yeast numbers


> Kyle asks:
>
> > I reread some of Fix's lastest book on pp. 68-69
> > regarding pitching rates (sorry Fouch, no info on
> > catching rates). ...
>
> > required yeast cells = 1.5*(10^6)*(5 /0.003875)*50
> >                        *0.25 = 2.4 X 10^11
>
> > He goes on to say that 1 ml of yeast solids contains
> > 4.5X10^9 yeast cells:
>
> > required ml yeast solids = 2.4X10^11 / 4.5X10^9
> > = 5.38 ml
>
> ------------------------------------
>     Kyle, there is an error here though I don't know if it's in Fix's book
> or a transcription mistake but, as outlined above, the volume of 5.38 ml
is
> off by a factor of 10. If you are trying to get to a final number of about
> 200 billion yeast (2.4x10^11) and you have a yeast concentration of about
5
> billion per ml (4.5x10^9) then you need about 40 mls of this yeast to get
to
> the desired total of  200 billion    (in your example above you will
> actually need 53.8 mls).
> -----------------------------------
> > Then he indicates that the solids (yeast cake) at
> > the bottom of a fermented and completely flocculated
> > yeast starter contain 25% of yeast.
> ------------------------------------
>     So, you really need to increase the volume four-fold to get the proper
> number, therefore:
> (54 mls x 4) = 216 mls required.
> Since 1oz is about 30 mls this would mean you'd  need 7.2 oz.
> ------------------------------------
> > Anyone making 2 gallon starters for their lagers and
> > 1 gallon starters for their ales?  I received nothing
> > but yawns from the diejest regarding this topic.
> ------------------------------------
> I routinely make up the equivalent of about 1 gallon saturated
well-arerated
> starter for my ales and am personaly convinced that increasing my pitching
> rates to such a degreee has made a substantial contribution to the
improved
> quality of my beer.
>
> If you want more details and more numbers search the archives. This topic
> was recently discussed by myself  as well as by Jim Liddil and Mort 'O
> Sullivan in the past...

Here is perhaps a more succinct estimation for yeast pitching rates which
agrees with the number of cells needed for pitching you have above:


() Desired yeast concentration for pitching into a "standard" gravity ale =
10 million cells per ml.

() A five gallon batch is about 20 liters

() Combine the above and you need 200 billion cells (2x10^11)


A one gallon saturated starter grown up in normal gravity wort (~1.050) will
get you there...

> -Alan Meeker
  Baltimore



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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:49:00 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Blue Bottles


In HBD#3138 "Ed D'Anna" <edanna at webt.com> wrote:

___________________________________________________
Greetings, fellow fermenters!

Can anyone tell me if they have ever seen 12 oz. cobalt blue beer bottles?
I
think I may have seen them, either in an advertisement or even in a
catalog,
but now that I want them, I can't seem to find them. I know I can find 16
ounce cobalt blue bottles with the swing-top, but this is not what I want,
as I want to use them to bottle a batch of ice wine I am making, and would
like to use smaller, corked bottles. Preferably snazzy blue bottles!

Thanks in advance,
Ed D'Anna
Niagara Falls, NY

I don't know where I am with respect to Jeff Renner, but I'm damn near in
Pete Calinski's back yard!
_______________________________________________________


Ed,

There is a beer they sell in State College PA called Penn State Ale (I
believe it is "ale").  It comes in the cobalt blue bottles but they don't
use labels.  The letters "Penn State..." are in raised white letters
similar to Rolling Rock bottles.  I should be down that way Nov. 6 and
could pick up some for you if you are interested.  Then I could go 0.15
minutes west and 0.07 minutes north and drop them off at your place.  You
might have to get the members of the Niagara Association of Homebrewers to
help empty them.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY
0 Degrees 30.21 Min North, 4 Degrees 05.11 Min. East of Jeff Renner 


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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 11:55:58 +0000
From: darryl at sagedesign.com (Darryl Newbury)
Subject: CABA's Brew Your Own Beer Seminar A Great Success

On Sunday September 19th, in Toronto, Ontario, the Canadian Amateur
Brewers Association held a Brew Your Own Beer Seminar to introduce
newcomers to the hobby. 21 people participated in the seminar, including
15 people who had no previous experience whatsoever. 

They were taken through the whole brewing process for an extract with
grain recipe and learned the importance of sanitation in the brewing
process. Participants were also introduced to the basics of beer culture
with a discussion of styles and history. At the end of the day they
received instructions for brewing their first batch of beer at home and
received a certificate for specialty malts and malt extract courtesy of
Premier and a discount on supplies and equipment at Brew Your Own. The
event was led by Rob Jones with the support of John Tyler, Brantz Myers,
Peter Mulloney and Barry Pilatze. Thanks also to C'est What Pub and
Brewery, Brew Your Own Homebrew Shop and Premier Malts for their
generosity.

On a personal note it seems to me that this is the type of event homebrew
clubs and organizations could organize and facilitate to revive an
interest in our hobby.

Cheers, 
Darryl Newbury
CABA Board of Directors



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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:49:13 -0400 
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: GABF

Anybody going to be at the GABF this wkend?  I would like to meet any HBD
folks for a few beers.  I'd especially love to discuss any batch sparging
efforts as that is the only way I have ever made all-grain.

I will be at the show late friday and all night on saturday.  Let me know by
Friday afternoon as I fly out late in the afternoon.

Thanks,
Pete Czerpak
Waterford, NY



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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:39:44 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: Re: BT back issues

Since I've gotten several replies to contact BT I'm posting
this to the list.  If it come off with some attitude it is
because it was supposed to!!!!!

Could you all READ the information you got from Brewing Techniques.
They DO NOT have any of the early issues.  I'm looking for the
issues from volume 1 and 2.  The information I got from BT
started with volume 3.  I KNOW, I READ IT, because I'm looking
for the early issues to complete a collection.  Hell, they didn't
even have any of the volume 1 issues  (1993) back in 1995 when
I first tried to get them.

Sorry about the attitude but it really irritates me when people
don't pay attention.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Dirty Laundry Brewery
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:51:58 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Iron, Big Starters

Brewsters:

Probably the worst beer in the world is Iron City Light
and I was forced to drink it during a night-long stay
in the old Pittsburg airport one dark and  stormy
winter night. Miserable? - you bet! It is interesting
that all the other beer disappeared first, which led
me to the conclusion that Americans must have
SOME taste for beer after all. I was almost happy
when the barkeep said "Sorry, no more beer"

Anyway, I don't know if it is psychological or not, but
Iron City beer ( the last time I tasted it) did have a metallic
taste to me. Maybe they used iron vats, being in a usta-be
steel town like Pittsburg.  However, most beer texts
ascribe the bigger danger of iron and copper to a haze
formation with hops, not a metallic taste, as I recall. So,
this checks with what most have said about iron.

Best to avoid iron if at all possible although a limited
contact may not be noticable or it may just give your
beer a "house" taste.
- -----------------------------
Yaaawn!. One gallon starters. Ooops, sorry Kyle.
Your calculations check out with recommended
pitching rates. However, I usually do about a gallon,
but in sequence and quart at a time when I am
starting up yeast for the first time. It's just easier
to handle and easier to chill in the fridge to knock
the yeast down.

Better is to not worry too much about this if you
are planning on using this yeast in the future and 

use a smaller starter ( say 1/2 gallon). This checks
 with Terry Foster's suggestion, as I recall.

After the first batch, capture the remains from
the secondary of a 5 gallon batch, wash it three
times with cold sterile water and store it under
sterile water in a capped beer bottle. You may have
to store it overnight in the fridge between washings
to keep most of the yeast, especially if it an ale yeast.
This will keep for months or years this way, 

if you keep it in the fridge ( properly labelled!)
Be sure to wake this yeast up with a starter
before you pitch it.

Frankly, you don't give up much with an all
grain batch just doing a smaller starter. It
is just with extract batches and added sugar
that low FAN can create problems, IMHO.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley

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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:23:41 -0700 
From: Victor Macias <VMacias at foxsports.net>
Subject: Snazzy blue bottles...

Greetings, collective.

Ed D'Anna was wondering where to get the above mentioned bottles.  I know
that William's Brewing in CA sells 11 oz'ers.  Here's a link:
http://www.williamsbrewing.com 


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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:52:53 -0400
From: Chuck Cubbler <chuck at maguire.com>
Subject: Blue Bottles

Ed asked about a source for blue bottles.  Williams Brewing carries them. 
 I think their URL is williamsbrewing.com or similar.  Bought them at the 
request of she who must be kept happy.  They look cool, but for 24 bucks I 
can get brown bottles that are full.  Go figure.

Chuck
Brewing in NJ this weekend!!


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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 13:05:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: smurman at shell5.ba.best.com
Subject: Re: minis and sodas


<MVachow at newman.k12.la.us> wrote:
> 	Soda kegs do indeed require another fridge.

I keep hearing this momily, but it simply isn't true.  There are
plenty of kegs in 2, 2-1/2, and 3 gal. kegs available that easily fit
in a fridge w/o taking up too much room.  It's not necessary to always
keep the CO2 hooked up, so no drilling is required.  I usually only
have to top off the CO2 once or twice per keg.  So far my kegs haven't
noticed that they don't have their own special fridge, and the cheese
hasn't complained that the kegs are getting too much attention.

 -SM-


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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 16:03:14 -0400
From: "Donald D. Lake" <dake at gdi.net>
Subject: Zymurgy /infamous Bottle Opener Issue

During the recent HBD sabbatical, I was reading some back issues of
Zymurgy.  I came across the infamous bottle opener issue, and you know
what?  It really wasn't that bad.

For example, that issue had 125 pages vs 98 pages of the latest issue
(that's 27% more to you and me).  It had an interesting article by Jeff
Renner (of HBD fame) about baking bread using spent grain (Jeff is a
professional baker).  The advertising was better in regard to quality
and diversity.  And even the much-aligned story on bottle openers was
rather short, somewhat interesting and had some relevance to the brewing
experience.  I think their mistake was putting it on the cover.

I'm glad I am not it that business.  I think that it would be difficult
to come up with something new to say about brewing every other month and
still give it enough sizzle to sell magazines on the rack.  Although
Zymurgy-bashing is quite a popular sport on this medium, I still enjoy
it.

Don Lake
Lake Water Brewery
(wholly-owned subsidiary of Canal Water Beverages, Inc.)




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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 18:08:34 -0400
From: "Jay and Arlene Adams" <goosepoint at teleplex.net>
Subject: The First Annual Blue Ridge Brew Off

I'd like to invite you to participate in the Mountain  Ale and Lager
Tasters' (MALT) First Annual Blue Ridge Brew Off, November 13  at Asheville
Pizza and Brewing in Asheville, North Carolina. This will be a
BJCP-sanctioned  event using BJCP style guidelines. The competition
announcement, entry  forms, style guidelines, and judge registration/waiver
are available on our website (www.caveartmedia.com/malt). If you want us to
mail you the  package, contact me (adams at burp.org, 828-894-6441).

Entry fees are $5 for the first, and $4 for additional entries (no limit).
Three bottles are required for each entry. Entries must be received between
October 27 and November 6 at  Asheville Pizza and Brewing, 675 Merrimon
Avenue, Asheville, NC 28804.  In order to give entrants the best possible
feedback on their beer, we are looking for qualified judges. Contact judge
coordinator Mike Lewandowski  (mlew at ioa.com, 828/285-9814) if you are
interested in judging or stewarding.

The Western North Carolina mountains are particularly beautiful at this time
of year, and we promise a good time will be had by all.

Hope to see you there!


Cheers!


Jay Adams



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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 18:11:19 -0400
From: "Donald D. Lake" <dake at gdi.net>
Subject: Mini-kegs vs bottling

If I ever decide to quite homebrewing, it will be because of
bottling--especially now that I'm doing 10 gallon batches.  I'm
interested in mini-keg system because of the portability.

My question is, does the CO2 cartridge carbonate the beer or does it
just to push it out?  Whould I still need to prime with corn sugar?  If
so, do you use the same amount as when you bottle?

What's the opinion on the taps - plastic ($40)vs metal($70) as far as
value?  Is the same as the difference as in enamel vs stainless pots?

Thanks

Don Lake
dlake at amuni.com
Lake Water Brewery
(wholly-owned subsidiary of Canal Water Beverages, Inc.)




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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:20:47 -0400 (EWT)
From: pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: BT Back Issues...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

I need Brewing Techniques Vol 1 #1, 4, 5, 6
                          Vol 2 #1, 2
                          Vol 4 #6

I have no idea who the varmint was that made off with them over the years,
but they're gone nonetheless. I'd surely like to have a complete
collection, too.

I have duplicates of Vol 2 #4, 5, 6
                     Vol 6 #5

Hey: I travel. Sometimes, you just can't wait until you get home, so you
pop into a brew store and buy what you already have several hunder miles
away. Anyway, if we're all gonna start trying to put our collections in
order, here's MY post. Anybody have what I need? Anyone want what I got?
Strike a trade?

 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 20:48:46 -0400
From: "Ed D'Anna" <edanna at webt.com>
Subject: Cobalt blue bottles: And the winner is...

Hello!

Thank you to all who replied to my question about where I could obtain
cobalt blue beer bottles. I received two answers: Williams Brewing and St.
Patrick's of Texas. For those of you who are interested, St. Patrick's price
is less than half the Williams price! And you know what? That makes those
pretty blue bottles even prettier!

Thanks again!
Ed




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Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 20:46:52 -0600
From: hal <hwarrick at springnet1.com>
Subject: Elderberries

Mark van Bommel,

I don't know what a hogshead equals but when
we made a 5 gal. batch of wheat with it, we steeped
8.5 oz. of berries for at least 20 min. at 160 deg.
then added that to the 2ndary fermenter and let sit for
about 10 days. Damn was that good ! Any comments
we got back from judges stated that they didn't know
how elderberry should taste but one said he could
detect a small peppery taste after swallowing.

Hal



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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:03:53 -0500
From: "Rod Prather" <rodpra at netzero.net>
Subject: Tube Bending

Bill Graham asked about ways of bending SS (and for that matter any kind of)
tubing.

Well, now you're talking about something that I am a hardened professional
on.  My profession is computer machine tools and I have worked on CNC tube
bending equipment for 15 years.   I have bent everything from soft copper to
aerospace titanium.

Keep the radius as large as you can.  SS if very hard and will wrinkle or
kink if the radius is too small.  Typically the best way to bend tubing
without flattening and without using expensive dies and machines it is to
fill it with some kind of granular material.  Sand is commonly used.  This
supports the tube and is easily removed after the tube is bent.  A second,
more obscure method is to fill the tube with water, plug the ends, and
freeze it to subzero (F) temperatures.  When the tubing is bent the ice
fractures and forms a granular material that will support the tube while it
is being bent.  For any level of quality this requires some tools and
preparation.  A round post (10 inch dia in your case with springback will
produce a radius of 11 to 12 inces) with a lever attached to the center that
will rotate around the entire circumference of the post.  A pin extends down
from the lever outside the circumference of the post and can be connected to
a second lever on the other end of the post for bending spirals.  This
supports a roller or a lubricated wiping die with a guiding slot cut into
it.  The roller or wiper slides up and down the post allowing it to track
the tube as it bends a spiral around the post.  The lever and the wiper pint
need to be metal. The wiper and bend post can be wood but the forces on the
wiper are substantial. .  You have to be able to disconnect the pin and
lever to remove the tube. You then clamp the end of tube to the post and go
to town. Bend a 360, move the tube through the clamp and do it again.  The
frozen water method is also a great way for bending tube in tube for counter
flow coolers  The inner tube needs some kind of support to center it prior
to freezing.  Don't you wish you had a name like Butros Butros-Ghali


__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html


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Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:06:17 -0500
From: "Rod Prather" <rodpra at netzero.net>
Subject: Brews in Tulsa

Boy am I glad the HBD is back on line. Thanks to the Janitors.  I too am
starting a new job and my donation will be in the mail as soon as my
accountant (read wife) releases the check.  :^).

I will be in Tulsa, OK next week from Mon to Fri.  Any suggestions for a
great micro brew or just a great beer house?  This will be my last
professional jaunt for a while to come so I am going to make the best of it.

ROD Prather.
I'm on the road in Tyler, Tx, It's a dry country, I don't live here and I
have no Idea how far I am from Jeff

- -------   When I die I'm going to will my body to Science Fiction......


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