---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  re: Prickly Pear mead (Dick Dunn)
  Sex With A keg? ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  KilnCoffee (CLOAKSTONE)
  Homebrewers using Sankey kegs ("Luke Van Santen")
  Dry Yeast Sale (John Varady)
  Carbonation and Priming (Bill Steadman)
  Sankeys (Jeff Renner)
  Refratometer's ("Philip J Wilcox")
  czech pils response ("Bayer, Mark A")
  RE: Sex With A keg? (LaBorde, Ronald)
  RE: 3gal soda kegs rule (RJ)
  Starter Step-Up Rates (Biergiek)
  S.G. question (patrick finerty)
  Louis Farrakan speaks....... (Jim Liddil)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: 11 Oct 99 23:21:26 MDT (Mon)
From: rcd at raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: re: Prickly Pear mead

John Wilkinson <John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com> wrote:
> ... Dick Dunn wrote of making pp mead
> and I wondered if he would share a recipe?...

Eh?  We don' need no steenkin' RECIPES, mon!

My "recipes" tend to be post-mortems, i.e., descriptions of what I did
rather than (necessarily) what somebody should do, because I tend to make
my decisions based on the ingredients I've got including judgments of their
character and strength.  After the mead is done, it is whatever it is and I
have a little more experience to guesstimate the next one.

That said, and also apologizing for being vague:  I would suggest a still
(un-carbonated), slightly sweet mead for prickly pear.  Strong is OK, since
this is a late-night sipping mead rather than a gulp-it-down mead.  My
approach has been to use a fairly robust yeast with a lot of honey (not
all at once...step it up through fermentation) - say, just over 3 lb honey
per gallon.

How much fruit?  Difficult since I've found the yield varies a lot with the
ripeness of the fruit, and also because most of my notes show the amount
of juice added rather than the amount of fruit which produced it.  But it
looks like something in the vicinity of 2 lb raw fruit per gallon of mead.
(Counting the fruits is truly useless, since they can vary in size from a
small kohlrabi down to a cornichon.)

>...He also wrote:
> 
> >Note, btw, that I didn't ferment on the fruit.  I extracted juice, then
> >cooked the fruit to extract more juice, etc., then fermented with the
> >juice.  This works, and as far as I could tell (by tasting free-run juice
> >beforehand against pressed juice after cooking) didn't make a difference.
> 
> Was the juice first extracted cooked, too?  How did you cook the fruit?  With
> added water or the first extracted juice?

The first juice was "free run" with a little encouragement.  For cooking, I
added just a bit of water to keep the fruit from scorching until it began
to give up its own juice.
- ---
Dick Dunn          rcd at talisman.com          Hygiene, Colorado  USA
   ...Don't lend your hand to raise no flag atop no ship of fools.


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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:43:02 +1000
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Sex With A keg?

I must take exception to Mr La Borde's suggestion that folk in here have
been having sex with mini kegs. Perhaps what you are suggesting Ron is that
such an act is being carried out AFTER the consumption of a mini keg. In
which case this weighs heavily in favour of the mini. But Ron sees this as a
"Dragon" and says "Life is too short".

Personally I like mini kegs and the kinky life style that goes with them
(yes Ron, life is too short!). But I must admit I find the corny kegs oh so
convenient and haven't filled a mini since. I keep intending to make a
special brew to put aside in my minis, but I haven't got around to it yet.
The best thing about the minis is an incredibly creamy head for which I have
no explanation.

As for comparing mini kegs with walking through walls, for heavens sake Ron,
have you gone completely mad? We haven't discussed walls since Dr Pivo's
ridiculous gyprock experiment! This digest is for ordinary mortals (though
some see themselves differently), not legendary super heroes!!

Phil Yates





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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 06:33:54 EDT
From: CLOAKSTONE at aol.com
Subject: KilnCoffee

Hello everyone - 

Nathan asks about KilnCoffee in porters and stouts.  For what it's worth, I 
customarily use Carafa Special #3, from Weyermann.  It is a roasted malt that 
is de-husked prior to the deep kiln - thereby removing the main source of the 
characteristic harsh, "ash" quality of black patent, etc. At 600 L, it yields 
a tremendously black beer, if that's what you want, without the unpleasant 
flavor tones.  I've gotten consistently great results. 

Paul


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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 06:43:00 -0500
From: "Luke Van Santen" <Luke.VanSanten at dot.state.mn.us>
Subject: Homebrewers using Sankey kegs

All -

I must take a little bit of issue with Phil Sides, Jr. He wrote:

It is 'nearly' impossible and definitely impractical for a homebrewer to
mess with Sankey kegs.  Notice I said nearly because I am sure 
someone reading the HBD either does it everyday or has done it 
in the past ;-)  Get some Corny kegs Rick, they are cheap and easy 
to use.

Cornelius kegs are definitely easier to use and clean, and are probably 
cheaper (you should be able to get some old barrel style kegs with 
Sankey taps for $20-$25 from a shoestring micro, if there is such a 
thing anymore). But the cornies only hold five gallons. Sankey kegs 
will come in 7.75 & 15.5 gallon sizes.

Taking the valve and stem out is no big deal - I think Jeff Renner had 
a post about this within the last 6 - 9 months. Actually cleaning them 
is 
harder than cleaning Cornie kegs, but not that bad (think of cleaning a 15 
gallon stainless carboy).

So, if you have the room, and the tap, and can find a keg in decent 
condition (or a condition you are willing to use), go for it! It will work 
just as well if not better than a Cornie!

Luke Van Santen
St. Louis Park, MN

I STILL think Jeff Renner should run for President. With Al "3 times the 
fun" Korzonas and Dave "Brewster" Burley as co-Vice Presidents.



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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 08:48:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: Dry Yeast Sale

Folks,

If you are a dry yeast user and would like to score a couple of years worth
of dry yeast, check out this ebay auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=179691335

There are 90 five grams packages of dry yeast in this lot. I won these in
the '99 MCAB and really don't plan on using them (I have several local
brewpubs and brewerys that I get fresh yeast from).

There is a minimum bid of $5.00 and buyer pays shipping ($3.00 in the US).

These sell for close to $1.00 each retail.

Proceeds from this sale will be donated to the HBD server fund. Thanks to
Pat & Karl for getting the server back up.

John
John Varady                     The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program
Boneyard Brewing                Custom Neon Beer Signs For Home Brewers
Glenside, PA                            Get More Information At:
rust1d at usa.net                  http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady 



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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 08:11:48 -0500
From: Bill Steadman <Bsteadman at elicheesecake.com>
Subject: Carbonation and Priming

I bottled 8.25 gallons of an Ordinary English Bitter with 5 oz of corn sugar

desiring 2.0 CO2 VOL, medium carbonation (used Promash to calculate the corn

sugar). The bottles were left out at 68 degrees for 14 days, and displayed
CO2 
within the liquor and a nice head (with good retention) when poured. After
two 
days in the refrigerator I decided to give one a test ride -- the darn beer 
was under carbonated and displayed little carbonation and poor head
retention. 
I was truly shooting for a English Ale brew here, with low carbonation. 
Thinking I had a fluke bottle here, you know maybe poor sugar distribution 
during bottling -- I grabbed another to sample. Same damn thing.

I have read in past posts that temperature definitely plays a role in 
carbonation levels. The dorm refrigerator was pretty cold maybe 40 degrees
or 
so.  I was wondering if what I should do if anything. One, I can wait until 
the beer settles and see if there are any improvements with time. Or, pull
the 
bottles back out and see if I can up the carbonation level at fermentation 
temperatures.  Shrug.... kind of a pisser here, because I was going to enter

this bitter in a homebrew competition. 

Feedback in the forum is OK.


Bill


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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 09:01:19 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Sankeys

Phil Sides <psides at carl.net> wrote:

>It is 'nearly' impossible and definitely impractical for a homebrewer to
>mess with Sankey kegs.  Notice I said nearly because I am sure someone
>reading
>the HBD either does it everyday or has done it in the past ;-)  Get some
>Corny kegs Rick, they are cheap and easy to use.

Well, you're right, and here's that someone!  I wrote privately to the
original requester, but I'll post my experience here (as I have in the past
 - it's in the archives.)

I like Sankeys for several reasons, and Corneys for others.  For a 5, 10 or
15  gallon batch, I wouldn't use Sankeys, but they work for me. I have a
three vessel RIMS made of 10 gallon aluminum stock pots, so my brew length
is 1/4 bbl.  I open ferment my ales in one of the stock pots (with a
judicious lid to keep boogers and critters out), and my lagers in a Sankey
without the valve.  Then I keg in a Sankey (directions below).  After I've
drunk 2.75 gallons I sometimes will transfer the remaining 5 gallons to
Corneys for space considerations or to transport.

I've been kegging in Sankeys about 18 years.  First, *release all pressure*
by pressing down on the ball valve or you'll get your teeth full of a heavy
valve and draw tube assembly when you release it.  Hold a rag over it or
you will get a face full of stale beer.  Then, using a small screwdriver,
pry out the flat retaining ring.  Next, using the jaws of a pair of pliers
as a tool, turn the valve to the left maybe 30 degrees, and lift it out.
It takes less time to do it than to describe it.  Soak the inside with
bleach water for a few hours and boil the valve/drawtube to sanitize it.
Rinse, fill with beer, reverse the above steps,  The hard part is
re-installing the flat retaining ring.  You have to press down to compress
th O-ring (which is under the valve).  To do this, I put a plumbing part
called a reducing coupler (I think 3/4" to 1/2")) on top of the valve, hook
a board under the lip of the keg top, across the coupler as a fulcrum, and
sit on the other end.  Then I force the ring into its slot by twisting a
wide screwdriver blade in the gap against the coupler until it's home.  It
takes me about 30 seconds.  You'll need to get a tap, of course.  I keg
about half of my beers in these, the rest in 5 gallon Cornelius (soda)
canisters, which have the advantage of being easier to fill and seal, using
cheaper taps, and taking up less room in the fridge.  Of course, they hold
less.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 11:56:40 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Refratometer's

Richard,

Yes, Brix are" essentially" the same as Balling and Plato. They are all more or
less defined as 1 degree equalls 1% sugar in solution. 1% sugar is "essentially"
1.004 SG until you calculate it out about 1.040 then it starts to gain. For
example 16 Plato is 1.065....There is an equation out there somewhere for a more
exact conversion. Its lengthy and complicated, but if you would like it in an
Excel spread sheet let me know and I can Email you one.

The one time I made beer at the winery, we used a fairly expensive temp.
corrected refractometer (Adago ATC-1 Hand Refractometer) to estimate run-off
gravity, and pre-boil gravity. It didn't even come close. we were both puzzled
at why, so we tried another one that wasn't temp corrected and still got screwy
results. We guessed at the time that maybe the disolved solids played a role. Or
perhaps the refractometer are calibrated on pure Fructose rather than the
maltose et. all that we are making? We found out later that it is calibrated on
Sucrose. But that doesnt really answer the question does it.

Anyone else have a better answer???? Good question for Siebel or even better for
UC Davis!!

Phil.

I gave my donation to the HBD, and will strong arm my club into doing the same
tonight.
Have you given yours???????




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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 11:39:50 -0700
From: "Bayer, Mark A" <Mark.Bayer at JSF.Boeing.com>
Subject: czech pils response

collective homebrew conscience_

john t is brewing a czech pils and asked for comments:

first and foremost, you need to get in contact with doc pivo.

my $.02:

>  2 oz 3.9% AA Czech Saaz - FWH
>  1 oz 3.9% AA Czech Saaz - 30'
>  1 oz 3.9% AA Czech Saaz - 10'

this may not give you the quantity of hop aroma you need.  i've seen the
article on pu in brewing techniques, and i seem to remember that there was
not a great deal of hops added (none) past about 10 or 20 minutes beob, but
my experience has been that i can't get pu-like hop aroma unless i cram a
bunch of hops in right at the end (like, at knock out.  i immersion chill.),
or do a *very* short boiled hop tea and add that.  dry hopping gets you an
aroma that's a little "raw" as compared with pu, to my palate, but you may
find you like it.

>OG 1.050 (85% efficiency)
>FG 1.015 (per guidelines)

>1. With a 100% Pils grist, I'm concerned about maintaining proper body
>in the finished beer. The published attenuation for 2278 is 70-74%. My
>experience is toward or beyond the high end of the range with any given
>strain, thus my concern for over attenuation. I need to keep it around
>70%. Will a 154F sacc temp suffice, or is a higher temperature
>indicated? Lose the 140F rest, maybe? What about the addition of some
>carapils?

here's joe power from siebel: 

>My critique to the statement "I saccarify all my beers at 158F to promote 
>more body, mouthfeel and sweetness" would be "You're wasting your time" 
>(assuming you're using North American Malt).  You will need a higher 
>temperature than that to get a significant increase in unfermentable body,
as 
>high as 165F.

just passing on the info. (yes, i remember you're using czech malt).  a 154
degf main rest with 100% pils malt and vigorous, healthy yeast may get you a
drier beer than you want.  just speculating based on my past czech beers.  i
would personally say throw in .5 to 1 lb of carapils or carafoam and
consider upping some portion of your sacch. rest to somewhere around 158 to
162 deg f.  and don't mash out too hot.  keep it around 165 to 168 deg f.

>2. Any comments on my proposed hop schedule from the experienced Pils
>brewers? 43 IBUs is <snip>

43 ibu's is fine if you can get an attenuation of about 70% (1.015) and you
stick with the plan to use very soft water.  a.j. delange has advised in the
past to avoid mixing sulfate and saazer hops, based on his experience.

>What about fermentation temps? 

absolutely get doc pivo's advice on this. ask about temps, temp ramps,
lagering, and krausening.

hope this helps.  the aim is to get you close, and then you can make
decisions on the next batch based on what you get from this one.  trust your
own experience.

brew hard,

mark bayer
stl mo


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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 15:59:00 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Sex With A keg?

Ooh Phil, boinking after the mini keg is consumed is possible, I suppose,
but how can one clearly remember the facts?   What is this fetish about
AFTER, Phil? I can only imagine how Jill must feel, always being put after.
This is at least your second bit of friendly advice about changing that
pesky habit.

I too dabbled with the thought of mini kegging, went as far as purchasing
one and quickly became discouraged after being treated to a Pilsner
facewash. I was playing with the idea of using a counter pressure filler,
not to fill, but to dispense from a mini keg.  Yes, I too have some strange
habits, I freely admit.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:47:20 -0400
From: RJ <wortsbrewing at cyberportal.net>
Subject: RE: 3gal soda kegs rule

Hey Tom,

Another great way to transfer from one keg to another is to use a hose
with threaded out connectors on each end.  The rec'ing keg should have
~7 PSI CO2 in it from the start and be sealed; Connect the out
connectors to each keg's out port.  Then apply CO2 to the "feed" kegs'
in port, to push the beer thru.

A few of the good things about this method is there is

1) Little chance for contamination;
2) The beer enters the rec'ing keg thru the long dip tube nearly
eliminating splashing;
3) The flow is regulated be relieving air head space (above the CO2) by
briefly opening the relief valve to facilitate slow flow.

RJ
PS I own (5) 3 gallons kegs myself... They are great for parties and get
toegethers... cerntainly easier to carry than 5 gal


Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 22:01:50 EDT
From: Tombrau at aol.com
Subject: 3g soda kegs rule

Greetings Brews Brothers

I love my 3gal kegs. I rack into a 5g keg with priming sugar and
transfer to
a 3g keg and bottle the rest. A 10" piece of racking cane fits in
thekegs.
cobrahead spigot and makes for easy bottling (oxymoron). Also, for keg
to keg
racking place racking cane piece between the two cobraheads, tap the
kegs,
open spigots and voila, nice and easy,counterpressure transfer.

I also have balanced the freezer/fridge temp to accomplish 68f in the
fridge
and 40f in the freezer. You get the picture, fermenters in the fridge,
3gal
keg in the freezer (sideways,out tube down) for serving through the tap
in
the side of the fridge. Easy.

On my spray nozzle on my sink, I cut the hose, inserted a T fitting with

an
out corny fitting attached. This makes for easy filling of a keg with
water
or rinsing a keg turned upsidedown in the sink. Just plug on the fitting

and
turn on the water.

I had an extra gott 10g water cooler (aka: mashtun) that I rigged an out

fitting and tube to the factory spigot, dropped in  a full and ready to
drink
3g keg, ice and small co2 tank and regulator (i use an old oxynater tank

and
regulator charged with 100psi co2 for dispensing-it takes 2 tanks to
empty a
3g keg). This setup makes for a great tailgate party. Who would guess it

were
fresh homebrew pouring from this construction style water cooler. When
people
first see this setup, they think i just poured beer in and it is gravity

feeding out the spigot. NOT. Easy portability.

As you can see my vote goes to the trusty soda keg.

Did I use the word "easy" too much?

May all your racks be o2 free!!

Tom Moench
Devout tinkerer and wannabe beer engineer
Mench5 at aol.com



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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 21:05:21 EDT
From: Biergiek at aol.com
Subject: Starter Step-Up Rates

The HBDJ is pretty slow right now due to the scandalous related crack down at 
the 'case, so I thought I would post my question here.  I am trying to 
determine what the optimal step-up rate is for a yeast starter.  I have come 
across the following numbers:

 -In BT this year it was published that you don't want to step up more than 
10X the current starter volume (i.e. if the current volume is 200ml the next 
starter volume should be no more than 2000ml - I have to do the math for the 
folks in the Grand Rapids area, please be patient)

 -I think I read in the HBD archives that Steve A. 4X was correct for lagers, 
and 8X for ales?

 -Morkey Owings likes to go with 6X.

If I go with Steve A., and my final starter volume is 6L, then the 4X 
schedule would be:

 -smack pack 50 ml
4 X 50ml = 200 ml for next step
4 X 200 ml = 800 ml for next step
4 X 800 ml = 3200 ml for next step
last step at the target volume of 6L 

It is time for the HBD to weigh in on this matter, what say yea all?

Kyle
Bakersfield, CA


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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 21:14:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: patrick finerty <zinc at zifi.psf.sickkids.on.ca>
Subject: S.G. question

hi folks,

i brewed my second all-grain batch this weekend, supposedly a Full
Sail Amber Ale clone. after some useful email from the Executive
Brewmaster (i want that title!) at Full Sail, i decided to splite the
10 gal batch into two carboys and use Burton on Trent Yeast for one
and a mixture (~50/50) of Irish Ale and London Ale Yeasts for the
second.

anyway, after finishing the sparge i measured the gravity of the
~12-13 gal of sweet liquor to be 1.052.

unfortunately, after everything was over and the wort was in the two
primaries, i did not have a sterile pipette for measuring the O.G. so
i just skipped that part. now i'm trying to back calculate the O.G.

here's the question: is the relationship between volume and density
(specific gravity, actually) linear? i'm fairly certain it is since
we're just measuring the mass per volume. if the volume is decreased
by a factor of 1.2 while the mass of solute remains constant, the
density should increase by 1.2 as well, until the point where such a
system no longer shows a linear relationship.

it doesn't make any sense to multiply 1.052 * 1.2 since the result is
clearly too large. however, if i subtract the contribution of the
water (1.000) to the density and multiply the 0.052 by 1.2, the result
is reasonable (1.062).

none the less, reasonable does not equal correct.

any comments?

 -patrick in Toronto
- -- 
       "There is only one aim in life and that is to live it."
 Karl Shapiro,(1959) from an essay on Henry Miller's Tropic of Cancer
	      finger pfinerty at nyx10.nyx.net for PGP key
		 http://abragam.med.utoronto.ca/~zinc


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Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 22:14:33 -0400
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at vms.arizona.edu>
Subject: Louis Farrakan speaks.......

A person who shall remain anonymous sent me this insightful and witty
message:

> You've got issues and you're angry .  You maybe the "Louis Farrakan" of
> homebrewing

And I "thought" I was beginning to become less angry and judgemental.
Certainly I still have a long way to go.


"Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca> wrote:
> I heartily recommend cranberries.
> I then crush them and toss them in at the end of the boil.  They stay in
> for the duration of primary fermentation.

As a note, cranberries have a great deal of natural pectin and the heating
can lead to excessive gel formation.  I prefer to add fruit to the
secondary and let the berries release their flavor their.  Ken Schramm and
Dan McConnell did an excellent presentation at the NO AHA conference and
the results were clear cut that the place to add fruit (or vegetables) is
in the Secondary.  As a note, the rhubarb beer was great and I think this
would be a really good choice for plambic.  Also I prefer to run my fruit
through a Moule' so that it is really pureed.

> From: "Steven Jones" <stjones1 at worldnet.att.net>
> Subject: Bottling pLambic
> 
> 
> I've got a plumbs that's about 16 months old now, and
> I'm ready to bottle it. The gravity is around .998, and
> it has a pellicle about 3/4 inch thick. Do I need to add
> yeast with my priming sugar to get the carbonation, or
> will there be enough residual yeast to do the trick?

It may of may not..  You could try any number  of approaches.  As Jeremy
suggested check the lambic faq, liddil.com, and the lambic digest archives.
There are any number of "correct" approaches.  Yo may want to split up the
batch and try various bottling techniques

> Also, I'm wondering if the pellicle will re-form in the
> bottle, or if I need to take any special measures to
> prevent it from happening.
> 

And if the pellicle reforms so what?  Is it the end of the world?  Keep in
mind that this is a plambic, not a pale ale where you worry about neck
rings. What matters is how it ultimately tastes.

> I had though about pasteurizing it by heating to about
> 150F for a half hour, then priming, adding yeast and
> bottling, but I'd rather not if it can be avoided. Does
> anyone have any advice for me?
> 
I feel this approach is a disaster waiting to happen.  In my view there is
no sound reason to kill the microorganisms in the beer prior to bottling.
Having said that you are free to try this and see what happens.  Maybe you
will get great results.



> From: "Ken Schramm" <schramk at resa.net>
> Subject: The AHA
> 
> His comments are very astute. 

Or pure lunacy
> 
> I do feel, however, that the main point here is that we are in charge of 
> the destiny of the AHA.  There are many options available to us, but we 
> have to assert our power to control the actions and direction of the 
> organization.  I genuinely believe that if the membership says that this 
> organization must change (and not one-at-a-time on an on-line forum, but 
> collectively, at the convention) then the organization will have no 
> choice.  
> 

I have to agree and disagree.  The USA (since we are talking about the
AMERICAN HOMEBREWERS ASSOC)  is largely wired either via telephone, the
internet, etc.  So We don't have to travel to communicate and interact.
Webcams are dirt cheap.  The HBD has one (and Pat let me know if my
donation has not arrived).  so I don't buy the one at a time thing.  Just
because we aren't all in a room telling Paul and the BofA how messed up
things are doesn't make our comments any less important.  Shoudl I have to
spend airfair/hotel/conference registration to voice my opinion as a MEMBER
OF THE AHA?  The AOB sees fit to put the GABF list up right away, yet the
minutes from the BofA  are still dated 1998.  And I have not seen mail from
techtalk in many weeks.  Having just search the AOB site, I have yet to
find contact info for various BofA members.  I have only seen Ed Busch and
David Houseman post@ any one time.  So are you suggesting that all this
online babble is just pissing in the wind?  And again I note that the AHA
forum traffic did not increase when the hbd went down.  At least the AOB
canned Cathy. :-)


> Jim, I will make efforts to meet as many of the requests as possible, and 
> even to keep you abreast of the developments, if you are willing to come 
> to Detroit and see how we did (and I'll try really hard to work out the 
> keg of Hansens).  No guarantees on Howard Stern, but I liked his movie, 
> much to my surprise.  Fine on the yeast culturing, but I am not too keen 
> on trying to put anybody out of business. 

There have been numerous discussion about capitalism and business on the
hbd with Pat Babcock making some very good comments.  My views about David
Logsdon and wyeast are not going to change.  One can check the lambic
digest archives and the renct thread here about practices Wyeast has used.
And if not Howard then Jackie would certainly be a good choice based on his
fondness for beer.






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