---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Sake, one more note. (Rod Prather)
  Bottle Guidelines for Contest Entry (Jarvis Moore)
  O2 not explosive ("Michael Maag")
  re: Starter Stirrer? (John_E_Schnupp)
  Yeast Starter - Oxygenation vs. Sanitation (John_E_Schnupp)
  sparge temp (J Daoust)
  Re: Homemade High-precision Thermometer (Spencer W Thomas)
  Re: Bohemian Pilsner (Part I) (Spencer W Thomas)
  Silica Gel (phil sides jr)
  lagering idea (Robert Johnson)
  DAP (Biergiek)
  The Flavor (William Frazier)
  where's my Mg (John_E_Schnupp)
  R.E. Caramel flavor in Fuller's ESB (Dave Humes)
  Re: Refractometers (Jim Wallace)
  Long Beach (Spencer W. Thomas)
  attached forms ("Tim Cronin")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 05:50:28 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Sake, one more note.

First, I assumed that polishing the rice removes protein.  Although
this may be true, it also removes the fatty acids leaving a hard
almost full starch core.  This also helps in reducing hangovers.

Sake comes in many different levels of quality.   Up until several
years ago, only cheap sake was available in the US.  Increased
interrest in sake here (driven by Sake America and Fred Eckhert)  has
encouraged the sake manufacturers to import the higher quality stuff.
Evidently the drinking of warm sake was practiced because it masks the
flavors of the added grain spirits.   This sake has alcohol contents
around 18 to 21 percent.  Though very high alcohol contents, near 21
percent, can be attained natually, high quality sake tends to be
around 14 percent alcohol and is typically drank cold or at room
temperature in Japan.

I suppose if you were a very agressive brewer, you could build a
polishing drum and polish your own rice.  Any suggestions????

By the way, the rice mentioned by our as yet unpacked Dave Burley is
of course Cal Rose.  Top quality rice as a food source, too.


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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:33:02 -0500
From: Jarvis Moore <Jarvis at denbury.com>
Subject: Bottle Guidelines for Contest Entry

Hello all;  long time observer, first time poster. I am rapidly approaching
a point in my brewing where I am comfortable entering competitions.  The
problem I have encountered is that there does not seem to be a "standard"
for bottle/cap type.  Can someone outline a standard or point me to a good
reference source?  I commonly use old Oberdorfer Weiss bottles, but have
recently acquired a  case of empty Anchor Steam bottles. Do I need to find a
six or twelve pack of generic bottles to use only for competitions?

Private e-mails are fine.

Thanks in advance for any input,

Jay Moore
Plano, Texas
Jarvis at denbury.com

"Pay no attention to the loud and boisterous for you know always where they
stand, tis the quiet people you need to pay heed, for their thoughts are
seldom revealed to the masses."
									







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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 09:34:22 -0400
From: "Michael Maag" <maagm at rica.net>
Subject: O2 not explosive

Regarding Oxygenation vs. Sanitation, John writes:

" A problem I see with O2 addition via Oxygenator, is that this is quite
explosive and most people don't realize that potential.  Maybe most brewers
don't smoke - I hope
so.
John"

This is a common misconseption.  Oxygen does not expload, it does not even
burn by itself.  What oxygen does is make things that burn, burn faster and
more easily.  Oxygen lowers the ignition temperature of things which will
burn, and makes them burn at a faster rate.
If you smoke a cig in an O2 enriched atmosphere, the cig may catch on fire
rather than smoulder, but that is all.  The flame will not make the O2 burn.
If your hair or clothing is saturated with pure O2, then the flaming cig
could catch your hair or clothing on fire.  This would require a  very large
amout of O2, not the amount needed to oxygenate wort.
Cheers!
Brew Safely,
Mike Maag,  OSHA Inspector, Industrial Hygienist


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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:28:18 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: Starter Stirrer?

Ron,

>The motor was controlled by a simple 10 watt or so potentiometer.

Actually it was probably a variac (variable AC transformer).

>It was held down by a simple metal flat piece that screwed down on
>either side of the magnet to the disc.

There a a bunch of ways to mount a magnet to a motor shaft.  The
way you mention is one.  My first stirrer was using a DC fan, the
housing was steel so the magnets held themselves.  The second rev
used a DC motor and I expoyed the magnet to a shaft coupling.

>One thing to watch out for also, is the heat from the
>motor really heated the plate up too much and raised the temp

The variac probably created more heat than the motor.  One stirrer
I saw (commercial) had the magnet mounted (epoxy) to the center of
a small fan blade.  Voila, a fan and a stirrer all in one.

My current stirrer is the DC motor.  I think it's rated 24 VCD.
I used a LM317 voltage regulator (Radio Shack) to build a variable
DC supply.  An old 18 VDC "wall cube" supplies the voltage to the
regulator.  The regulator is mounted in the stirrer box.  It
(voltage regulator and motor) barely get warm.  The wall cube gets
a little warm but since it's not mounted in the stirrer it's no
problem.  I also like the low voltage DC because if it gets wet
it won't cause a catastrophe  I built the box for the stirrer out
of wood.  Wood is an insulator (at least more of an insulator than
the metal).

Speed control.  I don't worry about it.  I keep it going fast enough
to just start a small vortex.  My stirrer has no problem stirring
3 qts of fully grown starter.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Dirty Laundry Brewery
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200



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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:28:08 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: Yeast Starter - Oxygenation vs. Sanitation 

Bill,

>Off the cuff, it sounds like they are mutually
>exclusive, since the process of oxygenation would break any sanitary
>"containment". Could somebody enlighten me on how this is done?

I use a small aquarium pump.  To output of the pump I attach a HEPA
filter.  The filtered air is pumped into starter flask.  The flask is
sealed with stopper.  You can use a 2 hole stopper (one for air in
and the other for air out).  I use a fitting I made that allows
bi-directional flow.

I feel this is about as good as I can get.  Granted the HEPA doesn't
filter everything but I've never had an infection that has been
starter related.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Dirty Laundry Brewery
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200



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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 08:38:18 -0700
From: J Daoust <thedaousts at ixpres.com>
Subject: sparge temp

Is  there a reason why you cannot use a sparge temp greater than 170??
If 170 degree water dissolves the sugar good, why not use ~190 degree
and dissolve more sugars??  Any thoughts welcome. Jerry Daoust


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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:04:02 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Homemade High-precision Thermometer 

Hey, it's online!  See below.

>>>>> "Charles" == Charles T Major <ctmajor at samford.edu> writes:

    Charles> Here is the full citation: Carlson, Shawn. "The Amateur
    Charles> Scientist: A Homemade High-Precision Thermometer."
    Charles> _Scientific American._ 280.3 (March 1999): 102-103.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/1999/0399issue/0399amsci.html



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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:21:32 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Bohemian Pilsner (Part I) 

    John> Ken recommended an inexpensive scale which can be found at
    John> [Edmund Scientific URL]

American Science Surplus has what looks like the same scale for less
than half the price:

http://www.sciplus.com/cgi-bin/basket/940522558.14/experiment/90022.html



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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:55:26 -0400
From: phil sides jr <psides at carl.net>
Subject: Silica Gel

I was unable to locate any discussion of silica gel in the archives
except for use as a fining, so maybe this will even kick off a totally
new thread...

I have never had a problem with my stored malt picking up moisture, but
I use it fairly quickly and I store in 5 gallon buckets with the PITA
lids on tightly.  I always hit my calculated OG's (actually been over
lately) within reason.  Nonetheless, this is a big area of concern for
me because of my recollection of an experiment involving storing malt
open to moisture and weighing it to determine how much moisture it
absorbed.  By the way, I should mention this is uncracked grain; I do
not mill it until just before it goes into the MT.

I moved recently and the new digs' cellar is far more humid (and warmer)
than my old cellar.  My question is, will adding silica gel to my
storage buckets guard against moisture absorbtion?  If so how do I
determine how much to add?  The  thought occurred to me recently while
removing a small plastic can labeled "SORB-IT CAN" from a bottle of
vitamins.  It is made by a company in New Mexico and even patented.  Of
course, it says "DO NOT EAT" but clearly this is considered a food grade
container because it is in direct contact with the vitamins.  This
brings me to another question...  Are the paper (tyvek) packets of
silica gel you typically see packed in electronics safe for this use?

In the same bottle of vitamins, was another similar container, a little
larger, but made by the same company etc.  It is called "GETTER CAN" and
contains activated carbon.  Presumably, this is for odors, freshness
etc.  Comments on the activated carbon?

Phil Sides, Jr.
Concord, NH
- --
Macht nicht o'zapft ist, Prost!



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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:21:14 -0600 (MDT)
From: Robert Johnson <robertcj at lamar.ColoState.EDU>
Subject: lagering idea

to the collective:

I had this idea.  Let me know what you think.  

I was thinking that I could use my fridge to creating a lagering
environment, but in a non-traditional sort of way. I like to serve beer at
about 38F, so this would be too cold for the primary fermentation.  My
idea goes like this.   I would start by placing the carboy of fermenting
wort in a container holding water(like a large rubbermaid container, or 
something like that).  In order to chill the water that bathes the carboy,
I thought I could recircultate the
water, using a pump of some sort, through a length of copper tubing
occupying the freezer of my brew fridge.  So, the bath water would leave
the container via a pump, travel to the freezer, go through about 10 feet
of copper tubing, and return to the main bath.  
Would this be feasible?  Has anyone tried anything like this?  If
so,please respond.  Or, if there are heat exchange experts out there, how
much chilling would have to happen in order to keep approximately 5
gallons of bath water at about 48 - 52F?

Bob Johnson
Fort Collins, Colorado


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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:50:28 EDT
From: Biergiek at aol.com
Subject: DAP

Anyone know where I can buy some diammonium phosphate (DAP)?  This will be 
used for yeast nutrients.

Kyle


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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 20:30:20 +0000
From: William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: The Flavor

Ian Smith asks"how do you create that distinctive caramel flavor .in
Fuller's ESB"					
					
IanYou've touched a subject dear to my brewing heart.  I've been
 searching
for the secret to FESB caramel flavor for about two years.  In the Kansas
City area FESB from the keg has substantial body, and a malty/caramel aroma
(no hop aroma).  The major flavor impact is caramel, a little sweetness
followed by a strong, very mellow bitterness.  I can't detect any dry-hop
flavor.  IMO the bottle version	isn't nearly as good as from the keg.				
					
I started my work with Jim Busch's recipe "My ESB" that can be found in
Cat's Meow.  This recipe brewed with my Kansas City area water, which is
loaded with minerals and has a pH of about 9, results in a rather harsh brew
that mellows out in about three months to a drinkable liquid with a
pronounced ale taste.	
					
After eight attempts the 5 gallon recipe settled in as shown below;					
Maris Otter 		45.6%			
Munich Malt		45.6%			
Cara Vienne		4.1%			
Cara Munich		4.1%			
Roasted Barley		0.5%			
(use enough grain to give an OG of 1050 to 1060)				

Goldings 60 min		8 hbu			
Fuggles 45 min		2.7 hbu			
Fuggles 15 min		2.7 hbu			
(this works out to about 50 IBU using Noonan's calculation)			
					
Wyeast London Ale 1968					
					
I now use pretty soft water made by diluting local KC water with reverse
osmosis water and I add some calcium chloride.					

This recipe will result in a very nice "bitter" type beer with some
maltiness.  The bitterness will be mellow if the water is soft.  However,
there is no caramel flavor in this beer no matter how much Cara malts are
used, no matter if the mash temperature is 150F or 158F and replacement of a
portion of Cara malts with Flaked Maize does not result in a caramel flavor.
Decoction does not result in caramel flavor.					
					
Recently I have been concentrating on process steps instead of recipe
modification.  Nate Waller and John Penn offered some good suggestions on
how to create caramel flavors.  Nate boils the first gallon of runnings down
to a pint creating a caramel-like flavor.  John diluted 4 lbs LME in one
gallon of water and boiled this down to a thick syrup.  I've tried both
methods now and the results are kegged.  Both beers have a lot of body, a
big malty aroma, a mellow bitterness and are quite malty-sweet.  However, I
can't say they have caramel flavor.	
					
I do think this approach is the answer.  To my taster FESB has a caramel
flavor that is like caramelized suger (like Kraft caramels or like peanut
brittle).  While the caramelizing techniques described above produce a
caramel-like flavor it's not quite the same as I pick up in FESB.  Could be
that Flaked Maize, reported to be a FESB ingredient, once converted to corn
sugar in the mash is the ingredient that is responsible for the
sugar-caramel flavor following some special Fuller's manufacturing
technique.					

I presently have a more true FESB clone in the primary.  The recipe is given
below;					

Maris Otter		88.3%			
English Crystal 60	3.7%			
Flaked Maize		7.4%			
Roasted Barley		0.6%			
(mashed  at  154F)(OG 1059)					
					
Target Plugs 60 min	8 hbu			
Target Plugs 15 min	2 hbu			
(works out to 37 IBU using Noonan's calculation)				

Wyeast London Ale 1968					

I used Nate Waller's technique boiling the first gallon of wort down to one
pint.  The beer, still in the primary, has a bitter-sweet flavor.   No
caramel though.					
					
I plan on brewing the recipe again but instead of boiling first runnings
down I intend to run the first pint or so of wort directly into a hot brew
pot, letting the wort "scorch" for a moment.  Then I'll run the rest of the
wort on top of this and see what happens.  I believe this technique is used
in some Scotch Ales. 
					
Any suggestions are always welcome.					
					
Regards,					

	Bill Frazier
	Johnson County, Kansas

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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:52:35 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: where's my Mg

A (another) question about water.  I recently received the
water analysis and for the most part have no problems
interpreting it.  However, I do not see a listing for
magnesium (Mg).  There is a listing for manganese (Mn).
I can not believe that they got the two confused.

Alkalinity         42-56 mg/L as CaCO3
Calcium hardness      45 mg/L as CaCO3
Total hardness        61 mg/L as CaCO3
TDS                  113 mg/L
Chloride              17 mg/L
Sodium               7.5 mg/L
Sulfate               15 mg/L
Zinc (added)       .2-.3 mg/L  (added to reduce leaching)
Phosphate (added)  .9-1.6 mg/L (of lead/copper from plumbing)

My question is this, are there any assumptions that can be
made about the Mg?  The help information say the Mg is best
kept at 10-30 ppm.  If there are no assumptions I can draw
about the Mg present in my water, I will assume it
in negligible and not worry about.  The water reports are
free and I don't feel like sending a sample out and paying
for additional testing.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Dirty Laundry Brewery
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200



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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:30:42 -0400
From: Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>
Subject: R.E. Caramel flavor in Fuller's ESB

I cannot say that I know what Fuller's uses, but I do have a
suggestion.  I use Schreier Carmel 60 in my ESB and it leaves a
distinctive malty presence without the sweetness of crystal.  It's
almost a little too roasty for my taste, so I think the next batch
will be a blend between their carmel 60 and carmel 30.  Despite the
urban legend that carmel and crystal are the same thing, I can attest
to the fact that the Schreier carmel malts have little in common with
crystal malts.  Get some and give it a chew and the difference will
be immediately obvious.  You can read the description at
http://www.schreiermalt.com/maltdesc_s.html and the analysis at
http://www.schreiermalt.com/maltanal_s.html.  These are basically
high kilned malts as opposed to crystal malts which have had most of
their starch converted in the stewing process.  Therefore, these
carmel malts must be mashed and are not suitable for steeping in
extract brews.

- --Dave



Dave Humes                             >>humesdg1 at earthlink.net<<



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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 21:01:29 -0400
From: Jim Wallace <jwallace at crocker.com>
Subject: Re: Refractometers

>I have been thinking of investing in a refractometer (temperature
>compensating) to take gravity readings instead of the good ole hydrometer.
>Does anyone else out there use one of these?  Any recomendations?  Also, is
 ........................
I have been using one for ~18 months now and keeping records of hydrometer
vs refractometer readings with about 30 datapoints so far... the accuracy
is quite good within a SG point or two usually and truthfully In trust the
Refractometer mostly.

You can not take a direct reading with the refractometer once the
fermentation begins due to the amount of alcohol present but there are
formulas to compensate  

>there an easy Brix to S.G. conversion?
 ........................
roughly  Brix/4 = SG
__________JIM WALLACE ____________
             jwallace at crocker.com
      http://www.crocker.com/~jwallace  


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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 18:16:21 -0400
From: Spencer W. Thomas <spencer at umich.edu>
Subject: Long Beach

I will be in Long beach for a whirlwind visit on Oct 27.  My bro & I
will be pub-crawling that evening, and I MIGHT have some time in the
afternoon, but my schedule is not yet set.  Still, meeting up with
fellow hbers is one of the things I like to do when traveling.  If you
want to try to set up a meet, drop me a line.  Phone number(s) are bound
to be good, since I don't know when & where exactly I'll be yet.


=Spencer Thomas

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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:35:30 -0700
From: "Tim Cronin" <cronin at attitude.com>
Subject: attached forms

Kathe, I have not been able to read your email.  Why can't you just email me
with the normal message.  Why are you using attached forms.  What ever the
format is my computer does not read it.  All I get is a blank screen.


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