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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Not worrying, just curious... (x2068) <jrs21%CAS.BITNET at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
  stuck fermentation (again) and help with contaminated fermentation lock (Marty Albini)
  Cold temperature cloudiness (Doug Roberts  at  Los Alamos National Laboratory)
  Some successes, a failure. (Doug Roberts  at  Los Alamos National Laboratory)
  Re:  Homebrew Digest #316 (December 05, 1989) (Ed Falk)
  dreaded chill haze (olson)
  Re:  Cold temperature cloudiness (boubez)
  Re:	cloudy at low temps (florianb)


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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 89 07:16:21 pst
From: jrs21 - John Simpson (x2068) <jrs21%CAS.BITNET at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject: Not worrying, just curious...


        I'm a novice brewer, just getting ready to bottle my
        second batch, and have a few questions.

        My first batch was pure extract, one 4 lb.  can of
        MountMellick Hopped Brown Ale kit.  It seemed to take an
        unusually long time (3 weeks) to ferment (single stage,
        glass carboy), but I didn't check the S.G.  so it may
        have been done sooner.  For the first week and a half
        after it was very malty and under hopped (a friend
        described it as "beer soda").  This is not a problem, I
        like malt.  The second week and a half was even better,
        light malt character with a good hop flavor.
        Unfortunately, it now tastes like brown seltzer water :-(.
        No malt, no hops, nothing.  I understand continued slow
        fermentation, but why did the hops disappear too?  How
        can I avoid this in the future?  (Grains, malto-dextrin,
        etc?)  I used the dry ale yeast contained in the kit.
        If I can find a way to keep it from going bland on me
        I'll be using the same extract with some light malt added
        as the basis for a Gingered Ale, because (in it's early
        life) this brew had a nice, spicy flavor of it's own.


        My second batch was a bit more adventurous, Papazian's
        Elbro Nerkt (sp?) with a few minor substitutions -- all
        Cascade hops and Chocolate malt instead of Black Patent.
        Anyone know the story behind Elbro?  I used a kitchen
        strainer to hold the grain as I steeped it and the hops
        as I boiled them, but it let quite a bit through.  Is
        there a practical way to filter the wort as it's going
        into the carboy, or should I switch to two stage
        fermentation?  Also, I used Wyeast (#1338 European) and
        after the foam fell I was left with a 1 inch thick cap of
        yeast/foam.  It will not settle.  I even shook it gently
        to break it up and it came back.  Any suggestions?  Also,
        is there any way to add body after the ferment in
        complete?

        Does anyone have a table of the characters of different
        types of hops?

        Has anyone else noticed that used Bud/Bud Light bottles tend
        to have more/grungier crud in them than other brands?

        What kind of luck have people had with Papazian's Stout
        recipes?  Esp. Toad Spit Stout and the one (name?) that's
        supposed to be like Sheaf's.

        People in the midwest should check out:

              The Winemaker's Shop         Open: Mon., Wed., Fri, & Sat.
              (Nina Hawranick)
              3377 N. High Street
              Columbus, Ohio  43202
              (614) 263-1744

        They also do mail order.  Great advice, reasonable
        prices, _fresh_ supplies, owners willing to taste
        beginner's homebrew and talk for an hour or so in the
        afternoon.  May not be around much longer, too many Bud
        men in this town.  Disclaimer: I'm just a satisfied
        customer.

        Thanks for your patience, advice and suggestions,

                        John

**************************************************************************
     "The church is near, but the roads are icy...
          ...the tavern is far, but I will walk carefully."
                                       - a Ukrainian proverb
   jrs21%CAS.BITNET at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu   (until Dec. 15)
   simpson$j%dayton.bitnet at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu   (receiving only)
**************************************************************************

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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 89 7:44:11 PST
From: Marty Albini <martya at hpsdl39>
Subject: stuck fermentation (again) and help with contaminated fermentation lock

	I seem to be having very bad luck with Edme ale yeast. A few
weeks ago I had a fermentation get stuck, and had to repitch to get it
going again. Well, it's happened again, only this time repitching
didn't even work.

	The beer is a stout, OG 1.068, and it has only gotten down to
about 1.039 after a week. There are about ten pounds of John Bull light 
extract in the five gallons, so I expect it to wind up in the low 
twenties, if not lower. The funny thing is, this ferment started out
faster and more vigorous than I've ever seen (a bubble a second after
a couple hours) and the krausen (~2" worth) fell after one day.

	My only guess so far is that the temperature in the closet I
brew in may have dropped into the low 60s at night, and this seems to
knock the yeast out at least semi-permanently. Does anyone know if
Edme normally behaves this way? Is there a threshold termperature at
which it konks out? Could it be some thing else (pH, nuetrino density,
the political climate)?

	I should probably add that throughout this process, I was
relaxed, did not worry, and consumed several homebrews.

> From: Ilaine - 'the maniac with the string' <estokes at lucy.wellesley.edu>
> Subject: bubbles and vapor locks
> 
> 	I am brewing my first batch of mead, and it seems to have developed
> an obnoxios habit in the last week. There is a sort of suds at the top which
> I am told is normal, I was also told I left plenty of space at the top of the
> carboy. Nonetheless, the bubbles have been creeping all the way up and into the
> lock. I was told if this happens I should change the water. So far no problem, 
> but I have had to do this every day for a few days now. I don't want to have
> to open the thing too often, I have popped the reachable bubbles when I 
> cleaned the lock, but they are growing back quicker and quicker.

	I have a suggestion that might help (it works for me, anyway).
Remove the fermentation lock, clean it, and refill with vodka. Now,
even if it gets contaminated with krausen, nothing will grow in it,
and it's guaranteed to be food-grade! 8<:^) There's also no problem if
it gets sucked back into the fermenter, as there would be with a
bleach solution or sulphite.
- --
________________________________________________Marty Albini___________
"To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks."
phone    : (619) 592-4177
UUCP     : {hplabs|nosc|hpfcla|ucsd}!hp-sdd!martya
Internet : martya%hp-sdd at hp-sde.sde.hp.com (or  at nosc.mil,  at ucsd.edu)
CSNET    : martya%hp-sdd at hplabs.csnet
US mail  : Hewlett-Packard Co., 16399 W. Bernardo Drive, San Diego CA 92127-1899 USA

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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 89 09:08:58 MST
From: roberts%studguppy at LANL.GOV (Doug Roberts  at  Los Alamos National Laboratory)
Subject: Cold temperature cloudiness

>
> I always use one large clear glass bottle so I can see if the beer is
> clearing, and sure enough after 6-7 days it became nice and clear, about
> the color of Bass.  So I put a couple in the fridge to try.
> 
> When I went to take them out in a few hours they were very cloudy, so I
> assumed I shook them up somehow and replaced them in the fridge with some
> clear ones that I put in very carefully.  A few hours later I was shocked
> to see these cloudy too.
> 
> If fact, every time I cool any of these beers they become cloudy.  Now all
> the chemistry buffs are thinking - ah, a percipitate!  That's probably what
> it is, but what is it and why does it come out of solution at cold temp's?
> Or is the yeast somehow getting stirred up by two hours of sitting in at 45
> degrees (not what I consider worth waking up for)?  Most importantly how do
> I avoid this problem in the future?  The beer tastes pretty good, but
> a little yeasty still.
> 
> 
> Tim Harris
> 
> 
I believe this is what is known as "protein haze" or "chill haze", an
often-observed phenomenon when the proteins haven't been completely
precipitated out after the boil. Known causes incude not boiling the
batch long enough for the proteins to "cook" (usually 30 - 45
minutes). You can tell when this has happenend by watching the wort
during the boil. After a while you will notice a flocculance in the
wort which is the cooked protein. This is called the "hot break".
Another, similar cause can be an insufficient "cold break". The
flocculated proteins precipitate out better if the wort is cooled
rapidly after the boil than if it is allowed to slowly cool over a
period of hours.

Suggestions: 
1. Boil for a full hour.
2. Cool the wort with a wort chiller
3. Add 1/2 tsp Irish Moss during the last 1/2 hour of the boil, if
you like. It helps precipitate proteins.
4. Don't worry about it: the chill haze doesn't affect the flavor of
your beer.

- --Doug

================================================================
Douglas Roberts                |
Los Alamos National Laboratory |I can resist anything
Box 1663, MS F-602             |  except temptation.
Los Alamos, New Mexico 87545   |  ...
(505)667-4569                  |Oscar Wilde
dzzr at lanl.gov                  |
================================================================

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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 89 10:54:50 MST
From: roberts%studguppy at LANL.GOV (Doug Roberts  at  Los Alamos National Laboratory)
Subject: Some successes, a failure.

Just thought I'd update you all on the last three batches I've made.
One was a moderate success, one a fully-fledged resounding success,
and a contaminated batch that had to be tossed.

The moderate success was the batch made with 6# light unhopped syrup,
1# honey, and the whole hops mailed from Czechoslovakia by relatives
of a Czeck friend of mine. Unfortunately, the hops were not fresh and
had lost most of their charactor. I ended up boiling 1 oz of cascade
pellets and adding the filtered extract to the secondary. The result
was a slightly cloudy (because of the late hop addition), drinkable
lighter beer that goes well with food. 

The resounding success was my modified version of Papazain's mash
Silver Dollar Porter recipe that I posted a month or so ago. Not to
sound unduly modest or anything, but this is the best beer I've ever
made, and the best porter I've ever tasted. There is some detectable
level of pride of craftsmanship in my evaluation, but

DAMN THAT'S GOOD BEER!

The failure was a mash batch that somehow got contaminated in the
secondary. It became cloudy and developed a bad off flavor & odor. I
had to toss it.

Tonight, I'm going to make a Holiday Ale from the following recipe:

7 1/2# Klages
1 1/2# Crystal (90)
1/4# Chocolate
1/4# Black Patent
1/2# dextrin power (I don't have any Cara pils at the moment)
1 tsp each of cardomon, cinnamon, and ginger powders
Grated rind of four oranges
1 1/2 oz Chinook - Boil
1 oz Willamette  - Finishing
14 Grams of dry Whitbread yeast which I'll rehydrate first.

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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 89 11:06:09 PST
From: falk at Sun.COM (Ed Falk)
Subject: Re:  Homebrew Digest #316 (December 05, 1989)

> I always use one large clear glass bottle so I can see if the beer is
> clearing, and sure enough after 6-7 days it became nice and clear, about
> the color of Bass.  So I put a couple in the fridge to try.
> 
> When I went to take them out in a few hours they were very cloudy, so I
> assumed I shook them up somehow and replaced them in the fridge with some
> clear ones that I put in very carefully.  A few hours later I was shocked
> to see these cloudy too.
> 

It's called "chill haze".  It's caused (I think) by insufficient boiling
of the wort.  It's proteins precipitating out of solution.  If you leave
it in the refrigerator for a few weeks it will clear again.  I know because
our first batch had it pretty bad.  I think our second batch is ok and
our third batch just got bottled so I don't know yet.

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Date: Tue, 5 Dec 89 15:08:57 EST
From: olson at antares.cs.Virginia.EDU
Subject: dreaded chill haze



Tim Harris writes:
>If fact, every time I cool any of these beers they become cloudy.  Now all
>the chemistry buffs are thinking - ah, a percipitate!  That's probably what
>it is, but what is it and why does it come out of solution at cold temp's?
>Or is the yeast somehow getting stirred up by two hours of sitting in at 45
>degrees (not what I consider worth waking up for)?  Most importantly how do
>I avoid this problem in the future?  The beer tastes pretty good, but
>a little yeasty still.

Tim, you are suffering from the Dreaded Chill Haze.  There is some
discussion in The Complete Joy of Home Brewing, to my recollection
going like this:  the wort contains a variety of things besides sugars and
starches, notably tannin (from the grain husks) and proteins.  At low temps
the tannin bonds weakly to the protein and comes out of solution, creating
a haze.  (don't shoot me, chemists! I'm just a dumb brewer!)  Now my 
understanding is that this has no effect on the flavor at all, unless you
have a LOT of tannin.  TCJoHB's unhelpful advice is "If the haze bothers
you, try drinking from an opaque mug".  But I like to see the color of my
brew;  presumably you do that by controlling either the protein or the tannin.
To do the former, I believe you have to mash -- right, experts?  Or maybe be
more careful about excluding trub after the boil.  To control tannin, you
should at least be careful not to boil any grain -- put it into the wort cold,
and strain it out when the wort finally reaches a boil.  There's nothing us
extract brewers can do about the tannins in the extract, though.  Finally,
you can do what I do:  cheat!  A couple of hours (12?) before bottling, stir
in a tablespoon of Polyclar, which is basically pulverized plastic.  This
adsorbs tannins and sinks to the bottom.  Works great for me, and also
gives me that warm glow that comes from being politically incorrect... :-)

- --Tom Olson (olson at virginia.edu)

By the way, would some kind soul send me the current price and address for
subscribing to Zymurgy?  The back of my TCJoHB says $17, bet that's wrong...
Thanks!

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Date: Tue,  5 Dec 89 16:06:53 EST
From: boubez at bass.rutgers.edu
Subject: Re:  Cold temperature cloudiness


Quoting Papazian's book:
"Chill haze is a result of a combining reaction between proteins
and tannins. At room temperature it is soluble and remains invisible.
At cooler temperatures it is no longer soluble and precipitate as
a haze."
He goes on to say that if it bothers you, drink from an opaque
container :-). More seriously, you can control it by using Papain
(an enzyme extracted from papaya skins), Polyclar, a plastic powder,
or activated silica gel. I'm sure any homebrew shop will have
something to help. Good luck.

toufic


		Toufic Boubez
		boubez at caip.rutgers.edu


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Date: 05 Dec 89 17:43:59 PST (Tue)
From: florianb at tekred.cna.tek.com
Subject: Re:	cloudy at low temps

In Digest #316 Tim Harris inquires about cloudiness which sets in at
frige temps.

I understand that this is called "chill haze" and is due to the 
presence of unprecipitated proteins in the beer.  Additives such as
Irish moss during the last five minutes of boil, or polyclar or gelatin 
at bottling or during transfer to the secondary can help to clear up
the problem.

I've found that certain ingredients cause a chill haze that is nearly
impossible to get rid of.  For example, the Steinbart's syrup extracts,
crystal malt (on occasion), wheat malt, and certain brands of extract
syrup all have caused bodacious chill hazes for me at times.  Case in
point is a recent pilsner I made using 1/2 # of 40 L crystal (to be
ornery) during the mash (the rest two-row).  I have decided long ago
that clear beer is an artificial requirement invented by wierdos during
and after World War II, who mainly were interested in trying to culture
a market who they believed to be composed mainly of women.  They some
how had the idea that women like lighter, clearer beer.  Where they
came up with that is beyond me, and it was probably an insult anyway
to catagorize women like that.

I don't care if my beer is clear any more than if cream, gravy, 
hamburgers, wood, books, or this computer are clear.  What does clear
do anyway?  I think in this hobby, self satisfaction is all I'm after.
If I dont get any awards for cloudy beer, it won't break my heart.

Incidentally, I have made pale ales that were as clear as a crystal,
but they didn't taste any better.

Cheers!  Florian Bell [On my way home to drink some cloudy beer.]


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #317, 12/06/89
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