---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Eng & sci ("Sean Richens")
  keg questions answered, kettle questions next (Randy Miner)
  Dry ice ("Dan Kiplinger")
  The Bob's of Texas - responses ("John Stegenga")
  pH testing advice ("Jay White")
  plastic ("John S. Thomas")
  Summer brewing ("Darren Robey")
  Star San / Emeril / S. Ludwigii ("Luke Van Santen")
  HOPPIEST SHOW OF THE MILLENNIUM IS NEARLY HERE! ("Steve Ashton")
  post-brewing repairs (Marc Sedam)
  151 rum & splashing ("Doug Moyer")
  Foamless in Idaho, Taste design (Dave Burley)
  RE: starting siphons (Demonick)
  Re: Basic Questions ("Jeffry D Luck")
  St. Pat's/Briess Golden Lager ("St. Patrick's")
  corks/yeast ("David Kerr")
  Pronunciation ("Werrbach, Maria")
  RE: system queries! ("Nigel Porter")
  It's Science VS Engineering! Decoction Mashing! (RCAYOT)
  Cask-conditioning (RiedelD)
  Re: Flavor Balance Equation (Project One)
  Muntons wheat malt (Liz Blades)
  Re: FWH ("Robert J. Waddell")
  Details - killing bugs, units ("Sean Richens")


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 19:56:23 -0600
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: Eng & sci

Thanks for gently toasting me, rather than giving me the 200,000 BTU flame!

I stand unrepentant, though.  We USE science, we don't DO science (except
for some dedicated souls whose postings we print out and file XOXOXOXO to
you).  Where I ended up in private correspondance with Rod is that there is
a lot of voodoo among homebrewers.  For example, I use Irish Moss in every
batch.  I've never made a batch without it.  That's not a very scientific
attitude.  I'm afraid that if I left it out I'd make 6 USG of beer my
friends wouldn't touch just because it looks funny.  That's voodoo - make
the appropriate sacrifices and hope the brew gods smile on you.

Engineering is listing all that science can tell you about a problem that
exists (not phantom fears), ranking them as to how each corresponding
change would quantitatively (as in "a bit" and "loads") improve things,
then deciding which one has the best potential for results divided by
hassle.

There's a saying "Farmers make wine, engineers make beer."  I like wine,
too.  I make crappy wine, but good beer.

Prost!


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 21:54:35 -0500
From: Randy Miner <randyminer at mpinet.net>
Subject: keg questions answered, kettle questions next

Hello HBD,

I received many good suggestions regarding my C-keg questions.
I wanted a way to easily connect various things to my CO2 source,
such as 3/8 tubing, 1/4 tubing, and liquid or gas ball disconnects.
The solution I went with was to use some quick disconnect fittings
which are available with the compressor accessories at the local
Home Depot Super Mega Store, and pretty cheap too.  I put
a female end on the CO2, and a couple of male ends with hose
barbs, so I can put CO2 into my carboy, push beer out of it, etc.
I'm not worried as much about oxygen contact, I just like to do
it this way instead of siphoning.  More use for gadgets, and
less wear on my back lifting a full carboy.

I also received several warnings concerning pressurizing the
carboy.  It makes sense, and I will be very careful with this.
I may just gently hold the vinyl hose to the long orange cap
nipple, or put it on loosely so that it is unlikely to build much
pressure.  I also plan on pushing the beer very slowly.

Has anyone ever actually caused a carboy to burst by
pressurizing it?  (Other than a clogged blowoff tube)
It might be a good idea to have a T-shirt over it during
these operations...  I would be interested to see how many
psi a carboy could take, but I don't want to donate my
carboys!

I boiled in my converted sanke for the first time.  I also
used my homemade hopback for the first time.  The problem
I had with the kettle was that the drain clogged.  I had a
1/2" pipe in the side then a 90 degree down to the bottom
center.  I stuck a big stainless steel scrubbie around it, and
tied it down w/ a piece of copper wire as best I could.
Well, I think the pellet hops I used in the kettle clogged
the scrubber around the sides, and it ended up sucking air
from the top while there was still several inches of
wort in there.  I could not get it to go, and had to
do lots of unsanitary messing around to get the rest
out of the kettle.  Do others use a scrubber as a filter
and avoid this problem?  Could I have been pulling it out too
fast?  Is a valve/tube clamp needed to keep the
flow slow?  I assume I'd have to put it near the
low end of the tubing so I don't get air coming
up the hose when the flow is too slow?  Is the
only solution to use whole hops?

I also had some hopback questions.  I use a mason
jar.  I took a copper plate (about 1/8" thk), cut it to fit
inside the lid ring, and soldered some pipe nipples
on it that fit tightly inside 3/8 tubing.  I am having trouble
getting this lid (copper plate) to seal against the jar.
I used teflon tape wrapped around the edge of the
plate, so that it formed a teflon surface between the
plate and the glass edge.  The tape wraps over the
edge and lays against the top and bottom surfaces
of the plate around the edge.  Anyone know of a
better way to get a good seal?  Also, I can't see
how to avoid leaving a cup or more of wort in the
mason jar.

Thanks,


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 00:57:53 -0500
From: "Dan Kiplinger" <knurdami at iname.com>
Subject: Dry ice

I asked earlier about different methods of force carbonating brew in 5
gallon kegs (I have received only limited inputs via personal email so send
anything you got).

I have been mulling over this for a while.  It would be great to have the
beer cool quickly (after being kegged) and have it carbonated and ready to
drink in hours.  To do this I have seen no other way other than an ice-water
bath and a sore arm.  Then I came up with this idea:
What about dry ice?  There has to be an easy calculation on the weight of
dry ice needed to carbonate 5 gallons of beer.  I realize that this is an
extra expenditure but I have a place nearby that sells the stuff and it is
relatively cheap.

Before I spend much time investigating this, I wanted to ask the collective
for any previous experiments or success with carbonating with dry ice.

Dan in the best deer hunting state of the Union.


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 00:57:04 -0500
From: "John Stegenga" <bigjohns at mindspring.com>
Subject: The Bob's of Texas - responses

In HBD #3170, Bob of Texas wrote:
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 11:24:13 EST
From: RobertS735 at aol.com
Subject: Basic Questions


Dear Brewing community.... I have some basic questions, and I would
appreciate hearing opinions on them:

Q1. Why do we say that a sanitizing boil is 20 minutes in duration? Is there
a study somewhere that has experimented on this? What I mean is; do I really
have to boil my priming water and sugar for 20 minutes? What about 15 or 12?
Same question on chlorine bath... if I make the bath with relatively more
chlorine can it be quicker?

A1.  I think '20 minutes' is one of those rule of thumb things.  I know that
certain microorganisms can survive a boil for a short period, but not being
a micro-biologist I can't comment more certainly than this.  I can tell you
that chlorine is more effective in low concentrations than in high - which
is why you almost always dilute it for all sorts of cleaning purposes.  I
believe that the Clorox company recommends 1 tablespoon per gallon as a no
rinse sanitizer.  Remember, we're not making them sterile, just killing the
worst nasties.

Q2. First Wort Hopping: Am I missing something here or is the only
difference
between a FWH schedule and a "normal" schedule that you put the hops into
the
wort before it begins to boil-as opposed to waiting for the boil to begin-
then adding the hops?

A2.  I believe that this is almost correct.  Again, just my opinion, but I
think FWHops are when you add the finishing hops to whatever vessel you run
your wort into from the lautertun, where the 150(f)+/- wort is exposed to
them.  They are then added to the kettle and it's then boiled for the
duration.

Q3. Aeration or Oxidation.... when racking wort into the fermenter should I
let the hose run down the side of the fermenter and smoothly spread out -
thus maximizing the surface area in order to aerate... or do I aim that
sucker right down the middle making a big splash? Which seems better?

A3.  I have a piece of plastic at the end of my hose that has some holes
drilled in it.  It causes AIR to suck into the syphon.  The end of the
plastic is pinched so as to cause the wort to spray out in a couple of
streams.  This results in about 2 inches of foam on top of the racked wort.
I have difficulty getting the BIG SPLASH method to work because the height
differential is not great enough (only a couple feet).

Q4. Reference above #3 which "splash pattern" is better when racking from
finished fermenter to bottling bucket to avoid oxidation?

A4. No splash at all.  I lay the hose into the bottom of the bucket.  It
causes the wort to swirl a bit to help stir the priming mixture.

Q5. I still use my mouth to start the siphon.... is this a cardinal sin? 39
batches so far- no apparent contamination.

A5.  I invert my racking cane and fill the hose/cane with water.  The only
hard part is keeping the hose plugged / clamped so that the water does not
leak.  WHen the water drains from the hose it starts the syphon.  I only
loose about 2-3 ounces of beer this way.

Q6. Can I split the boil of my 6.5 gallon wort (after the sparge) into two
batches so they boil faster and thus save time? Should I re-join them after
the cooling and before pouring or racking into fermenter or pour one then
the
other?

A6.  I don't think this will result in proper hopping.  I suppose if you did
split it the exact same way you could experiment and find a way to make this
work, but I think it would be too hard to do.  Just MY opinion.


Q7. Can you infer, or even deduce, something (anything) from the nature of
the finished beer by looking or smelling the blow-off? I love the way this
stuff smells, as does my SO. Too bad it dosen't have a better use.

Q8.  Dump the blowoff into your compost heap, unless you run the blowoff
hose into bleach water.  You'll have the richest compost in the
neighborhood.

Ideas? opinions? all welcomed and if I get any private replies I will
consolidate into a post.
thanks.

call me Bob in Texas


OK, you're BOB in Texas.


John AKA Bigjohn
Atlanta, GA, USA.



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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 02:04:14 -0500
From: "Jay White" <jwhite at snip.net>
Subject: pH testing advice

I have hard municipal water with a median pH of 7.2, so I typically Brita
filter and mix with bottled spring water when brewing.  When brewing English
ales I use Burton salts, Epsom salt, and Morton's salt to treat the water.
I'm worried about the pH being off for my sparge water and realizing harsh
tannins.

My question is that I want to test the treated/blended water - and I hate
the pH paper tests! - so I'm looking for reasonably priced alternatives such
as a good quality electronic pH meter.  Does anyone have a good source or
other ideas?

Thanks


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 18:56:55 -0800
From: "John S. Thomas" <jthomas at iinet.com>
Subject: plastic

Hey guys, plastic works great with and without scratches. And as a matter 
of fact so does stainless steel. What does one do with a ss fermentor that 
gets scratched because some goof ball drops a valve inside? Same as with 
plastic. Smooth it our or in the case of ss grind it out and use hot water
(140 degrees or higher) to sterilize after using any of the other types you
may prefer such as bleach, hot caustic, five star and on and on. 

I have an axe to grind, I sell plastic fermentors. 

John Thomas 
Hobby Beverage 


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 16:53:19 +1000
From: "Darren Robey" <drobey at awb.com.au>
Subject: Summer brewing



OK all you northern types coming out of summer and heading into winter,
What sort of fermented beverages do people make over summer that are suited
to fermenting at the higher temperatures experienced?

Here in Australia we're talking days of 30 Celsius and over so with the
techniques of cooling including the wet towel, the high 20's are about as
good as it gets without a fridge  dedicated to fermenters (which I intend
to buy one day).

So my question is... what can I make that would be suited to this temp. I'm
talking beer styles, strains of yeast as well as all other manners of
fermented beverages.

Looking forward to your ideas, as I may well have done my last mash brew
until things cool down a little. Darn good I have a good supply!

Darren



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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 06:15:47 -0600
From: "Luke Van Santen" <Luke.VanSanten at dot.state.mn.us>
Subject: Star San / Emeril / S. Ludwigii

All -

Star San and its non foaming brother Saniclean are the best sanitizers 
I 
have ever used. I have no affiliation, just used them in a previous 
life. 
PBW is good too (doesn't work as well as caustic, but doesn't hurt you 
as bad as caustic either). I was wondering, what quantities do you get 
them in? I feel the quantities offered in HB stores are inadequate, 
especially when the prices are as high as they are. I tried to get a 
gallon from fivestar, but ran into problems (their perceived liability). 
Any 
good sources out there?

I too saw the Emeril show about pub food (GOTTA make that 
ploughman's lunch!). The homebrew section was pretty half-assed 
(several mistakes/misspeaks from Emeril). Which can be expected - 
he doesn't know brewing. While the next part can be expected as 
well, it was much harder to swallow. Garrett Oliver (Brooklyn Brewery) 
was Emeril's guest (my good friend Garrett was what Emeril kept saying) 
and did not do much to correct Emeril (at least not that was televised). 

A sad conundrum. Get the attention for homebrewing, but let several 
myths and mistakes be perpetuated. If only the common man and 
woman could be easily educated.

Jim Liddil - I would be interested in some S. Ludwigii. How much?

Luke Van Santen
St. Louis Park, MN


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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 08:39:31 -0500
From: "Steve Ashton" <sashton at metlife.com>
Subject: HOPPIEST SHOW OF THE MILLENNIUM IS NEARLY HERE!



WHAT'S BREWING?
The Hoppiest Show of the Millennium is less than three weeks away! If
you haven't started brewing your award-winning entries, there's no time
like the present. The deadline for entries is Nov. 30th.

The Hoppiest Show of the Millennium is PALES ALES' third annual
AHA-sanctioned contest, and will be held on Saturday, December 4th,
1999 at River Horse Brewing in Lambertville.

The competition is under new management this year, and our goal for
this year's competition is to focus on the basics - giving good
feedback to brewers and recognizing outstanding brews. Meads and beers
will be judged this year (but no wines. AHA style guidelines will be
used.
Check out our web site at http://brewmiester_2.tripod.com/ for more
information, online judging forms, style guidelines, etc., or contact
one of the competition adminstrators (contact information provided at
the end of this message).

VOLUNTEERS
We are currently looking for volunteers to work in the competition. If
you would like to volunteer for the competition as either staff,
steward, or judge, please contact Kevin Trayner or Steve Ashton
(contact information follows at the bottom of this message).

LAST YEAR'S BJCP POINTS
In related news, this year's organizers have submitted BJCP points for
all of the judges, stewards, and staff (to the best of our knowledge)
from last year's competition.

This information has been submitted to the BJCP and they should be
crediting all qualified participants. See the contest web page for a
list of participants at http://brewmiester_2.tripod.com/Contest/98part.
html.

- ----------------------
CONTEST DETAILS

This is an AHA-sanctioned competition, which will use AHA style
guidelines.

1. Each entry will be made with two (2) bottles, 12 to 16 ounces, free
of labels, with plain or blackened crown caps. No raised
lettering/symbols on the bottles.

2. All entries must be received by November 30th, 1999. Entries can be
shipped/dropped off at:

River Horse Brewing,
80 Lambert Lane,
Lambertville, NJ 08530
(609) 397-7776
www.riverhorse.com

Princeton Homebrew,
148 Witherspoon St,
Princeton, NJ 08542
(609) 252-1800

Hop & Vine
1271 U.S. Hwy 22
Lebanon, NJ 08833
(908) 236-6349

3. Categories may be collapsed at the discretion of the competition
director.

4. Score sheets will be mailed out to the participants after the
competition.

5. Competition open to all homebrewers. Beers produced in a commercial
establishment will not be accepted.

6. All entries become the property of the PALE ALES.

7. Attach your entry fee in check or money order payable to PALE ALES.
$5 for the first entry, $4 for subsequent entries.

- ----------------------
CONTACT INFORMATION

Competition Director
Kevin Trayner
609-890-8611
ktrayner at rocketmail.com

Judge Director/Steward Coordinator
Steve Ashton
908-253-2617
ashtonbru at aol.com

Assistant Organizer
Judi Cox
rvrr5K at webtv.net

Entry Coordinator
Al Bocardo
609-584-1611
anjifelal at erols.com





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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:15:47 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: post-brewing repairs

I recently brewed three beers out of a single mash using the
no-sparge technique: a bock, a Vienna lager, and what I'm calling
an American Mild.  The bock and Vienna came out just fine and are
fermenting away happily.  My problem is with the American Mild
(O.G. 1.035).

I was so happy to produce five gallons each of three different
beers that I spaced out when it came to adding the hops.  I
FWH'd with an ounce of Cascade (alpha ~4.5%).  Once the boil got
moving I (stupidly) added 0.5 oz of Centennial (alpha ~10%) at
the start.  I did add some flavor and aroma additions too, but
the bitterness from these are negligible.  Even being a hophead,
the beer is a touch too bitter.  Well, it's more unbalanced than
too bitter.  Fortunately it wound up a bit under-attenuated,
which helps.

Question:  What can I do to this beer to help balance out the
bitterness?  I thought about adding 4oz of maltodextrin powder to
bump the sweetness back up again, but was unsure if I'd just wind
up with a sweet and bitter beer.  Any thoughts?

Cheers!
Marc Sedam
"Huisbrouwerij Zuytdam"


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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:15:03 -0500
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: 151 rum & splashing

Subject sounds like a beach party... Hmmm...

Scott Birdwell sez: "Perhaps you should gargle with 151 rum just prior to
sucking on that syphon hose."

If you are that concerned, you better gargle for 15 minutes. Otherwise you
might as well just take a shot to "relax and don't worry", because you
aren't sanitizing.

I start the siphon with my mouth, but I do it to fill the tube up with
sanitizer. I then clamp off the hose and put the end I sucked upon back in
the sanitizer. When I am ready to transfer the beer, I stick one end in the
beer, unclamp the other end and let it flow into a bucket until it flows all
beer. I then put the end on the bottom of my receiving vessel. Use a
flavorless no-rinse sanitizer, though, since a small amount will inevitably
drain into the beer when you stick the racking cane in.

Bob in Texas asks about pouring straight into the fermentor versus a wide
spread down the side of the fermenter. We had that same question come up
this weekend. When you pour straight down, you get more bubbles, but they
are much larger. When you spread out the flow on the side, you get very fine
bubbles. The purpose is to maximize the dissolved oxygen. Intuitively I
would say that the wide pattern on the side is getting more DO, because of
the small bubbles. Small bubbles means a larger ratio of surface area of
beer to volume enclosed--i.e., more contact. Anyone with a DO meter want to
do a quick test?

Bob, my suggestion is to invest the spare change in the couch on one of the
little plastic gadgets that disperses the flow in a conical pattern. That
way, you combine the wide spray with the drop through the air. It doesn't
compare with pure O2, but for the money & effort, you can't beat it. You
could also add a few holes to the end of the hose (above the spray widget)
for that venturi effect. I would still rock the fermentor gently for five or
ten minutes, though. Just look at all the tiny bubbles that get created when
you rock it! The more tiny bubbles, the better, huh? (Just be safe about
it--I used to lay back on my hammock with the carboy on my belly to remove
an risk of dropping it. Now I just use O2....)

Brew on!
Doug Moyer
Salem, VA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com


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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:41:15 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Foamless in Idaho, Taste design

Brewsters:

Doug Marion describes a batch which showed no
foam when oxygenated or fermenting and
asks what could cause this.

Perhaps Foaming Star-San on his first time use?

I'd let the manufacturer answer this with some
authority, but defoamers can take several forms.
All of them are surface active, if not the classical
"Oil upon the waters"

Too many lipids may defoam, although I have 

never had such a problem, oats are commonly
blamed for introducing oils to a brew and
defoaming it. Did you use oats in your ESB?

A surfactant  is an an abbreviation for a 

"surface active agent" and as such can
typically lower the surface tension.  You
need to lower the surface tension as one
component to get a stable foam. If the 

surface tension is too low (one method
of defoaming) then the foam may not be stable.
So on certain special occasions what may 

be a foaming agent by itself, in conjunction
with other components may be a defoamer
by reducing the surface tension so much it
cannot support a film.

There are anionic and cationic and non-ionic
surfactants.  An anionic and a cationic can 

in fact kill each other and the combination
will be useless as surfactant. Typically
cationic (which can be disinfectants in some
cases) surfactants are used in acidic 

environments and anionics are used in
basic environments. Each may be combined
with a non-ionic to boost the strength in a
cleansing formulation.

A long answer to your question. A surfactant
which causes foaming in one circumstance may
cause defoaming in another depending on pH,
other surfactants and the like. The real test
will be when you pour that first glass.
- --------------------------------------------------------
I would like to encourage Martin Brungard's
suggestion for a discussion on designing a
balanced beer, as I haver never read a full
discussion of such an activity. My knowledge
of this area is incomplete as I have picked up
pieces from lots of areas, don't know if terms
are rigorously defined, and I have used
my winetasting experience and chemical
background to guide me.

It is not as simple as bitterness versus sweet,
as Martin suggests, as these are not antipodes
on the taste scale in my opinion. Acidity has to be
brought in here also and bitterness is often 

chemically suggested as the antipode of sour.
But bitterness actually has two locations in the
mouth. Front of the tongue ( bitter 1) and in
the soft palate ( bitter 2). Bitter 1 is often 

associated wth mineral bitterness and
I suspect is the antipode of acidity. Bitter 2
is often associated with organic bittering
components like tannins and the like.

Other components also interact. Is there
a flavor wheel for beer similar to that used
in winemaking?

Beer is a complex beverage as the state
of the conditioning affects the organoleptic
qualities,as many know a flat beer just
doesn't taste  as good as a cold, properly
conditioned one. Especially, when you are 

cleaning up the pizza boxes and empty
bottles and cans the next morning.

Protein content is often thought to be the
major component in stabilizing foam. Foam
in the mouth seems to contribute to this fullness
but I have never seen a discussion of flat
versus conditioned same-beer tasting and its
impact on tasting components.

 A full mouth is also thought to be from dextrins,
but is often denied in professional texts and
experiments have shown this to be not true. What
appears to affect the "mouth" is proteins again.
However, in wines, tannins also affect the mouth
fullness and I suspect tannins from hops and
other bittering components contribute to the
feeling of a full mouth. Likely some of the
mineral components interact.

Tannins and proteins interact as we all know.
Is this the  chemical origin of bitterness in our
mouth?

Let's clarify astringency versus bitterness in
beer, as suggested by Charles Rich some
time ago. I doubt I can, except as a matter of
intensity? In the chemical world alum is an
astringent and hydroxides are bitter. Does
this same parallel hold in beer? What is an
example of an astringent agent in beer? 

 Would anyone care to comment on the
distinction between bitter 2 and astringency?

Let's try to ferret out these areas. BJCP judges
may have more access to this kind of information
than others.  Please share it.

Keep on Brewin'



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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 06:53:07 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: RE: starting siphons


I too use my mouth to start siphons, and I use a hose extension. It's
a 3 foot long piece of plastic tubing whose ID is the same as the OD
of my siphon tube.  One end is marked (black sharpie) and this is the
mouth end.  Jam the siphon hose into the extension and suck. Pinch off
the siphon hose and pull off the extension.  No spit in the brew. Drop
the extension into the ubiquitous bucket of iodophor so it's ready for
the next use.

BTW - I was recently in New Orleans, a beer wasteland.  Bud, Bud-Lite,
Miller, Miller-lite, with the imports being Coors and Coors-lite.
Abita was available in many places.  Someone needs to tell Abita about
hops.  Apparently they don't know that you can add them to beer.

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax orders
demonick at zgi dot com


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Date: 17 Nov 1999 10:18:26 -0700
From: "Jeffry D Luck" <Jeffry.D.Luck at aexp.com>
Subject: Re: Basic Questions

Hey, I actually know one!  Q1 from Robert at ...

I've heard it this way:  If you are using municipal water, it has 
probably been treated with clorine, and the brewing process 
will tend to concetrate clorine flavor.  A 20 minute boil of your 
brew water is long enough to drive off the clorine and leave 
you with sanitized clorine-free water.

I know of a clean water artesian spring in my area and use this
water for brewing.  That way I only need to bring the water to a
boil to kill off all the nasties, and it's ready. 

For priming water, there probably isn't enough clorine there to 
make a difference.  

I never measured the clorine I used in sanitizing water.  About
two glugs from the clorine bottle into a full sink seemed right.  Then
there was the 'rinse 3 times with tap water' rule with anything that 
went into the clorine water.  

I've since moved to Iodine for sanitizing, and it's more of a 
'rinse once, if you feel like it' system.  Really much easier, and
has cut about an hour out of prepping bottles for 10 gallons.

Hope this helps. 

Jeff Luck
Salt Lake City, UT   USA



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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:00:20 -0500
From: "St. Patrick's" <stpats at bga.com>
Subject: St. Pat's/Briess Golden Lager

Jeff's comments about the lack of corn flavor in beers using corn sugar is
absolutely on the mark.  As I have been preaching in my catalog of at least
5 years now, you must mash with corn to get corn flavor.  Corn sugar and
corn syrup simply won't give you the flavor.

Jeff's interpretation of the data on the Briess web site is indeed correct.
The CURRENT extract produced by Briess named Golden Lager is indeed
produced by blending pale malt extract with brewers corn syrup.

However, the Golden Lager extract produced by Briess until early this year
WAS NOT A BLEND, BUT WAS IN FACT PRODUCED BY MASHING CORN WITH BARLEY MALT.
The extract sold by St. Pat's under the name 'American' is this extact but
it is gone save a few pounds.  The William's extract that Jeff Renner
referred to was also the same thing.

This leaves me in a bit of a bind because, like Jeff says, you aren't going
to get the proper flavor profile with a blend of corn syrup and pale
extract for American or Mexican beers.  Briess is considering producing the
old version of the extract again but the problem is that outside of St.
Pat's, not much of the stuff is sold.  The William's extract, that Jeff
says they no longer carry, was indeed the same stuff from Briess.

Lynne O'Connor
St. Patrick's of Texas Brewers Supply
http://www.stpats.com
512-989-9727




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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:51:48 -0500
From: "David Kerr" <dkerr at semc.org>
Subject: corks/yeast

I believe that Ommegang recommends storing their corked bottles vertically,
which makes the expression "laying down" beer for extended aging all the
more confusing to me.

A British friend of mine who has been to Belgium several times decants
Dubbles to a pitcher, then serves the yeast sediment on the side in shot
glasses.  He claims this to be a fairly common practice in taverns in
Brussels.

Dave Kerr - Needham, MA "It looked to me like Knobby tagged the runner" -
Tim Tschida


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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:10:51 -0600
From: "Werrbach, Maria" <mwerrbach at mail.elgin.cc.il.us>
Subject: Pronunciation

Fuggles.  
 
Does the 'fug' part rhyme with rug, or is it
more like the sound in feud (long u sound) ?  
It isn't in the dictionary and there is a small 
wager on it.
 
Thanks.


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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 18:23:14 -0000
From: "Nigel Porter" <nigel at sparger.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: RE: system queries!

>Remember the difficulty NASA got into mixing 
>measuring types - can we keep everything English or
>Metric _in the same post?_  (ie: pounds/liters, below)

>>2)Commonly- the initial rest temp.( for home brewers) is achieved 
>>by starting with a known water Vol.+ a known grain Vol.
>>(usually at a pound of grain per liter of water) producing an

>Bob Sheck

Thats nothing, for my mash thickness I usually use around 1/2 (UK) 
Gallon per kg.

Nigel


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Date: 17 Nov 1999 09:36:23 -0500
From: RCAYOT at solutia.com
Subject: It's Science VS Engineering! Decoction Mashing!

     I think we hit this one pretty hard recently.  I think someone hit the 
     nail on the head when they called homebrewing a CRAFT!  Look at it 
     this way, The intensive German method of tripple decoction mashing, 
     producing some of the greatest beers was developed because it was a 
     way to make beer without the need for measuring temperature 
     accurately!  All that was needed wa sto ake the mash to "blood" 
     temperature (protein rest?) then take a protion of the mash out, heat 
     it up gradually, boil it, then add it back to the rest mash.  If doen 
     carefully, this will hit the correct mash temperature right on the 
     money because a given measure of mash at a constant temperature 
     (boiling) will have a fixed amount of heat and raise the given amount 
     of rest mash to exactly the same temperature every time if the amounts 
     are controlled.  So in an ancient brewery, only teh ability to 
     accurately RE_MEASURE the same amount every time would be all that was 
     necessary to make beer!  This is surely engineering!  However, they 
     also didn't even know what yeast was and called it something akin to 
     "god is good" Surely the development of knowledge of yeast biology 
     etc, is science, and has made contributions to improve all of our 
     brewing!
     
     As for bucket brewing, in the old days, I used to make beer in a 32 
     gallon rubbermaid trash barrel.  I would make 24 gallons, primary in 
     the barrel, and secondary in two five gallon and two seven gallon 
     carboys.  By todays standards, the beer was really bad!  I think this 
     wa so because of the procedures we used.... old extract, partial boil, 
     and precious little dry yeast!  Today, I use that same barrel to store 
     my "clean" plastic fermenters in.  I also use it to sanitize my 
     plastic fermenters by filling it with water treated with bleach, and 
     submersing my entire seven or sixteen gallon FOOD GRADE plastic 
     fermenters in it overnight.  I believe this method of sanitizing is 
     adequate, especially since I pitch plenty of healthy yeast.  Open 
     (that is covered but not sealed) fermentation is perfectly suitable 
     for both ale and lager brewing.  (If you don't believe me, log on to 
     St. Pats brewing supplies (STPATS.COM) and look at the pictures from a 
     recent trip to the Czech republick!  The comments are that most of the 
     breweries there use open fiberglass lined fermenters!)
     
     Kevin or Darla Elsken asked about decoction mashing, all I can say is 
     that it is very difficult to measure exactly!  You need to develop a 
     method that worksd for you and your set-up.  For instance, I use a 
     metal strainer for pulling my decoctions, I pull three heaping 
     straniners full and transfer to my boiling vessel.  I usually add some 
     water to this to loosen it up a little, but when done the heat/boil 
     program, I add this back to my rest mash, and if the temperature isn't 
     exactly right, then you need to have a couple of gallons of boiling 
     water and a gallon or so of cold brewing water on hand for temperature 
     adjustments!  Stir in and measure the temperature!  If your mash 
     vessel has direct heating capability then hjust turn on the heat!  The 
     trick is to keep good records of your "measures" of decoction, and the 
     temperatures you hit when adding it back, pover time you will get very 
     very close to where you want to be!  Until then, just be prepared to 
     take quick action to adjust the temperature!
     
     by the way, in addition to being traditional, and having som eeffect 
     on the flavor of the beer, decoction mashing in my system increases 
     the yield of wort to .034 to .036 SG pts per LB per G, versus the 
     typical .028 I get when infusion mashing!
     
     Roger Ayotte


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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 10:51:12 -0800
From: RiedelD at pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
Subject: Cask-conditioning

I recently acquired a 7.75 US gallon Golden Gate keg with
the gravity-feed taps.  I've got a few questions regarding
cask conditioning.

1.  Can I put 5 gallons in the keg and adjust the priming
to make up for the large amount headspace?

2.  If I hook up the air-inlet fitting to connect to my C02
cylinder, will applying a layer of C02 *after* a serving
session be of any use in attempting to make the beer
last a little longer.  NOTE:  I don't want to eliminate the
introduction of air entirely, as that is a part of the charm
of cask-conditioning/serving - the evolution of the flavours,
aromas in the beer.

3.  What is a good book on this subject?  Is Wheeler
and Protz: Brewing Real Ale a good one?

Any other tips, or personal experiences with real ale
are welcomed.

Cheers,
Dave Riedel


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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 12:30:33 -0800
From: Project One <project1 at pond.net>
Subject: Re: Flavor Balance Equation

In "Designing Great Beers", Ray Daniels uses this type of analysis, doing
it by style.  It's been real helpful in formulating my own recipes.

		------------------>Denny Conn

>
>Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 17:37:31 EST
>From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com>
>Subject: Flavor Balance Equation
>
>I have done some research recently regarding flavor balance in beer and I 
>need some learned brewers comments on the information I've gathered.
>
>I like to have an idea of a beer's flavor balance (sweetness vs. bitterness) 
>before I attempt the brew. I have found a recipe calculator at
>
>http://www.cellar-homebrew.com/cgi-bin/calc/calc
>
>that provides an indication of flavor balance with respect to the IBU and 
>S.G. of the brew. From what I could tell by comparing with Promash, the 
>recipe calculator above probably uses the Garetz IBU formula. Through trial 
>and error, I have deduced the equations used in the calculator to estimate 
>the flavor balance. The relationship is described below:
>
>Very Bitter    12 IBU per 10 points S.G.
>Balanced        7 IBU per 10 points S.G.
>Very Sweet   2.75 IBU per 10 points S.G.
>
>Researching the HBD archives provided 2 conflicting IBU/S.G. relationships 
>for a balanced beer. In an early post, a relationship of 8 IBU per 10 points 
>S.G. was reported. That was subsequently disputed and a relationship of 4 
>IBU per 10 points S.G. was provided.
>
>I realize that there may be other factors involved with estimating flavor 
>balance, but I was hoping that some of you could comment on the 
>applicability of the relationships above and if there was some other 
>references to this type of flavor criteria.
>
>Martin Brungard
>Tallahassee, FL
>
>"Meandering to a different drummer"



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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 20:45:59 GMT
From: blades at airtime.co.uk (Liz Blades)
Subject: Muntons wheat malt

In HBD #3171

 Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net> suggested


"It could be that the malt had 'aged' in-situ. Check with
your homebrew shop supplier and see if they changed drums.
It does get pretty hot there in Florida! 

And mistakes do happen. Maybe it's not the supplier's fault
after all."

This is exactly what Muntons told me,I'd passed the original message to them.

Andy(the sales manager and a member of the board, email andy at muntons.com) 
said that the problem with bulk malt was that it is not possible to 
pasteurise it 
as the cooling down period is too great and could cause melanoidin 
effects,ie darkening of the malt.

Although he(and I ) appreciate that there is a saving in buying from bulk 
malt you have to understand that storage,and indeed transportation, can 
cause problems.
Unless you know that the product is fresh we both would advocate
 that you buy the canned product, which is pasteurised.
Is it really worth the few pennies saved on the bulk price over the canned 
to guarentee that you will produce the beer you want?(my words not Muntons).

I've always had good luck with Muntons products.

So have I,no affiliation at all apart from a calendar every year!!!!!!as one 
of their stockists.Believe me if they do anything wrong I let them know.

HTH

Cheers

Liz


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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 19:05:04 -0700
From: "Robert J. Waddell" <rjw at dimensional.com>
Subject: Re: FWH

Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> wrote:
>FWHing is steeping the hops at runoff temperature 
>(~170F) for the entire sparge/runoff or lauter time, 
>~ one hour. It is this long steep at lower 
>temperature that makes the difference. 

Jeff & others, I started using this method back in 1995 
when the concept first appeared here. But for some reason 
I picked up an inference in the articles that the First Wort Hops
were only the flavor and aroma hops and that they should be 
removed from the wort JUST before a boil was attained, then the 
bittering hops were added about 15-20 minutes after the full boil 
started and the hot break had been removed. I've made some very 
decent pilsners using this method (except for the diacetyl problem 
that I'm still working on). So, do any of the other brewers on the 
HBD use this method and how are your results if you do?
rjw







          I *L*O*V*E* my [Pico] system. 'Cept for that 
          gonging noise it makes when my wife throws it 
          off the bed at night. 
                                       Women... 
                                                    --Pat Babcock

          *** It's never too late to have a happy childhood! *** 
****************************************************************************
RJW at dimensional.com  / Opinions expressed are usually my own but 
Robert J. Waddell         / perhaps shared.                     ICQ #7136012 
Owner & Brewmaster: Barchenspeider Brew-Haus Longmont, Colorado 
****************************************************************************
                        (4,592 feet higher than Jeff Renner) 



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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:02:25 -0600
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: Details - killing bugs, units

Regarding length of boil - I only have data for the kinds of bugs we don't
have to worry about much - spore formers - because they're not too fond of
low pH and hop resins.  Bacillus can infect beer, but most often before the
boil.

You have to boil wort longer than water because the starting numbers of
bacteria will be much lower in water (due to lack of food, and maybe some
treatment).  15-20 minutes works for most people.

I sympathise with Bob Scheck's plea for consistent units.  Anything more
detailed than reproducing a recipe really requires a rational system of
unit.

However, mixed units have their advantages - my 1 Litre water to 1 pound
malt (stiff!) mash ratio sure saves remembering numbers.  One of these days
I will either switch to predicting yields from %extract tables or convert
Miller's tables to Imperial Gallons.  U.S. Gallons are a terrible unit - no
damn good for heat balance calculations or anything else.

If we could get everyone to remember to note whether their hops were
pellets or flowers in recipes - THAT would be helpful!

Sean


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---