---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: Basic Questions (phil sides jr)
  Unusual Fermentation Foam (Jack Straw)
  Re: Star San / Emeril / S. Ludwigii (phil sides jr)
  Re: New Orleans (phil sides jr)
  Curious Widget Thought ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  RE:  Summer Brewing (KMacneal)
  Re: Engineering or Science? (Rod Prather)
  Brewpot dilemma ("Rick Gontarek")
  More sanitizing questions (jim english)
  Re: Dry ice (Israel Christie)
  pH Testing (AJ)
  Plastic ("Ken Schramm")
  Re: Summer brewing (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Pronunciation (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Summer Brewing ("Scholz, Richard")
  Sanitation (John Hahne)
  State of Beer Address:  New Orleans (MVachow)
  Stuck kettle drain, siphon starter ("Strom C. Thacker")
  When the hammock breaks, mamma you gotta move! (Brian Pickerill)
  No Foam in Idaho ("Doug Marion")
  Re:  FWH (Jeff Renner)
  malt mill ("Charles Walker")
  Counterflow Chillers (Rick Foote)
  pLambic Fermentation Schedules (alehouse)
  Quick Carbonation, N'Orleans beer (Dave Burley)
  Hyperbole in "The Big Easy" ("Brett A. Spivy")
  re: kettle drain & mason jar hop back (MaltHound)
  yeast choice sam adams boston lager clone/ (JPullum127)
  Over bittered beer fixer-uppers (MaltHound)
  Fw: high temp brewing ("Alan Meeker")
  Dry Ice Forced Carbonation (Bob.Sutton)
  scrubbies and pellets (Michael Kowalczyk)
  Thoughts for Dave Riedel, and Q:long-term gravity ("Sean Richens")
  Reminder - Happy Holidays Homebrew Competition (Brian Dreckshage)
  MCAB 3 Announcement (Louis Bonham)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 02:26:22 -0500
From: phil sides jr <psides at carl.net>
Subject: Re: Basic Questions

>believe that the Clorox company recommends 1 tablespoon per gallon as a
no
>rinse sanitizer.  Remember, we're not making them sterile, just killing
the

I would follow this "no rinse" advice only when attempting a Classic
German Hypochloritebier or perhaps a Dunkel Hypochloritebier ;-)

Phil Sides, Jr.
Concord, NH
- --
Macht nicht o'zapft ist, Prost!



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Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 23:30:06 -0800
From: Jack Straw <jstraw79 at pacbell.net>
Subject: Unusual Fermentation Foam

Ive been experimenting with new yeast as of late(I got tired of 1056),
and I had a question for all of you HBDers out there.  I recently tried
the Burton Ale Yeast from White Labs, and I have a peculiar
development...I am used to foam up, when I am putting the wort into a
carboy, I run it through a strainer and drop it to the bottom of the
carboy to airate it....I usually fill my carboys to the shoulder of the
bottle.  This time I filled it about 2-3 inches below the shoulder, and
pitched my Burton ale yeast and it is climbing out of the carboy, and
the foam is unlike any other I have ever seen.  There is so much of it
and it is almost like cauk (sp?) - the stuff you use to seal windows and
grout.  It is really, really dense.  The air being driven off from the
carboy smells fine, so I dont think that it is a contaminated batch...I
was just wondering if anyone else has used the burton ale yeast, and had
similar foaming reaction happen.  I am just mildly concerned that there
is something wrong with the beer.

Beer Info (In case it helps determine the problem)
All Grain IPA
SG: 1.060
IBUs: 45-50
There is flaked barley in the grain bill
5 gal
Burton Ale from Whitelabs Pitchable cultures.
Started fermenting strongly about 5 hours after pitching, and foaming
out of carboy after about 24 hours.

There may be no cause for alarm here, I was just worried because of the
slightly unusual foam, and the other carboy (different yeast) is no
where near to foaming over.  Thank you in advance!

Cheers,
Peter

- --
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
 -Ben Franklin



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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 02:38:20 -0500
From: phil sides jr <psides at carl.net>
Subject: Re: Star San / Emeril / S. Ludwigii

Luke Van Santen asks:

>Star San and its non foaming brother Saniclean are the best sanitizers
>I have ever used. I have no affiliation, just used them in a previous
>life.  PBW is good too (doesn't work as well as caustic, but doesn't
hurt you
>as bad as caustic either). I was wondering, what quantities do you get
>them in? I feel the quantities offered in HB stores are inadequate,
>especially when the prices are as high as they are. I tried to get a
>gallon from fivestar, but ran into problems (their perceived
liability).
>Any good sources out there?

My brew shop orders them for me.  I get Star San in 32 oz., and PBW in 4
# sizes.
Email me privately for contact info.

Phil Sides, Jr.
Concord, NH
- --
Macht nicht o'zapft ist, Prost!



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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 02:53:16 -0500
From: phil sides jr <psides at carl.net>
Subject: Re: New Orleans

Domenick Venezia wrote:

>BTW - I was recently in New Orleans, a beer wasteland.  Bud, Bud-Lite,
>Miller, Miller-lite, with the imports being Coors and Coors-lite.
>Abita was available in many places.  Someone needs to tell Abita about
>hops.  Apparently they don't know that you can add them to beer.

Next time, go to Cooter Brown's.  I don't need to say anything else ;-)

Phil Sides, Jr.
Concord, NH
- --
Macht nicht o'zapft ist, Prost!



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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 22:17:47 +1100
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Curious Widget Thought

For A.J.
Firstly, thanks for your detailed description of the new floating widget in
action. I can visualise a jet of beer exiting the tiny hole in the widget
and creating a "shear" effect within the can and thus encouraging the
nitrogen to come out of solution and produce the creamy head.

But one final question bothers me, what if the little hole in the widget is
pointing upwards when you pop the ring pull?

Now that surely is going to surprise any Guinness drinker far more than Ron
LaBorde shooting himself in the face with his 5 lt keg!!

Cheers
Phil


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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 07:10:03 EST
From: KMacneal at aol.com
Subject: RE:  Summer Brewing

In a message dated 11/18/1999 12:19:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Darren 
Robey" <drobey at awb.com.au> writes:

<< OK all you northern types coming out of summer and heading into winter,
 What sort of fermented beverages do people make over summer that are suited
 to fermenting at the higher temperatures experienced? >>

Belgian Ales (I especially recommend a Wit for summer brewing/drinking).  IPA.

Zymurgy had an issue on summer brewing a few years ago.  Perhaps someone you 
know has it in their archives.



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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 07:17:07 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Re: Engineering or Science?

"Robert A. Uhl" wrote on the Subject of  Engineering or Science?


> Messrs. Babcock & Prather write on whether brewing is a science or
> engineering, pointing out that engineering _is_ a science.
>
and how much science should be applied.

Although I didn't say that engineering is science, I did say that they
were closely related.  Engineering is the application of pure science.

Bob, actually I couldn't agree with you more.  Brewing is an art
because the outcome is asthetic.  Subjective to human senses and
preferences which are variable from person to person.  Music and the
arts apply science in materials, paints, musical instruments and even
in technique but it is still art.  That doesn't mean that you should
criticize a person for forming a band of 16th century musical
instruments and play unamplified.  Still the techno-musician bombards
us with computer generated music that eventually dulls the senses with
it's repetitious overly perfected din.  Kinda sounds like Budweiser,
huh.
- --
Rod Prather
Indianapolis, Indiana


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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 07:33:00 -0500
From: "Rick Gontarek" <Richard_R_Gontarek at sbphrd.com>
Subject: Brewpot dilemma


Hello everyone,

I am having a bit of a dilemma deciding which brewpot set-up to ask for from
Santa. I do 5 gallon all-grain mashes, and I currently mash either in a 5
gallon stainless steel pot (not a heavy-duty pot) on my stove-top or  for
infusion mashes, in my 10 gallon Gott cooler phitted with a Phil's phalse
bottom. Run-off is collected in an 8 gallon enamel pot. Because I'd like the
flexibility of brewing some higher-gravity beers, the 8 gallon pot isn't
going to cut it anymore. I'd like to get a 10 gallon stainless steel brewpot
(like Polarware), but I'm not sure if I should get one with a drain fitting
already installed (brass or stainless steel??) and purchase the false bottom
separately ($$), or just go-ahead and drill the new pot and add Jack
Schmidling's EasyMasher. What I'd like is the flexibility to mash in the pot
as well as to boil larger volumes of wort. I am also a little concerned
about price (I don't want to get greedy on Santa!).

If anyone has any comments or suggestions, please email me. I appreciate any
input.

Cheers,

Rick Gontarek
Owner/brewmaster of the Major Groove Picobrewery
Trappe, PA
RGontare at bellatlantic.net


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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 07:46:03 -0500
From: jim english <jimebob at mindspring.com>
Subject: More sanitizing questions

In all the discussion of various sanitizers during various phases of all
the many operations we all go through there is hardly any mention of
Hydrogen Peroxide.
I have been using it for a quick and hopefully-not-dirty contact killer
on starter jar lips, foil covers, funnels, countertops and stoppers.
Have I been deluding myself?
What IS the contact time for undiluted HP?
Have I just been lucky?

JRE
'hotlanta


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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 08:56:08 -0500
From: Israel Christie <ichristie at vt.edu>
Subject: Re: Dry ice

>Before I spend much time investigating this, I wanted to ask the collective
>for any previous experiments or success with carbonating with dry ice.

I believe dry ice often contains benzene.  I can't, at the moment, quite
recall why thats bad, but I know it is...


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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 14:11:15 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: pH Testing

Jay White asks about checking the pH of doctored water because of
concerns about sparge pH rising too high. Actually, the pH of water by
itself tells you very little about the suitability of the water for
mashing or sparging. What is much more significant is the "alkalinity"
which is a measure of how much acid the water can consume and,
therefore, how much it tends to raise pH in both mashing and sparging
operations. If you look back over the archives you will find dozens of
posts on this subject. In a nutshell

RA = alkalinity - (calcium Hardness)/3.5 - (magnesium hardness)/7

If RA is less than 50 mash pH tends to go where you want it and sparge
pH tends to stay below 6 to the point where runoff gravity reaces 2 or 3
P. Note that Brita filtered water will have very low alkalinity and thus
low residual alkalinity but it will also be deficient in calcium which
should be supplemented with gypsum or calcium chloride to the extent
that neither sulfate nor chloride is excessive.

Rather than do calculations it is, of course, better to measure the mash
pH and this requires a meter. There are many posts on the subject of
where to obtain meters. The bad news is that the best ones for brewing
(i.e. can be used in the most parts of the brewing process) are
expensive because they must work in hot, gummy, proteinaceous wort and
solids laden mash. The good news is that capability per $ has improved
greatly in the last few years and decent meters which can be used for
water, cooled wort and beer (the precipitous drop in pH which occurs
before any visible signs of fermentation is an excellent indicator that
they will actually appear) can be had for $100 - 200. Somewhat less
capable meters are sold by many homebrewing shops for under $100.

- --
A. J. deLange
Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.



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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:13:33 -0500
From: "Ken Schramm" <schramk at resa.net>
Subject:  Plastic

I have to agree with Jonn Thomas on the plastic issue.  I had a run of bad 
beers, and was on the verge of insanity, because my regular fruit beer 
process involves running hot wort onto the fruit in a plastic fermenter, 
and using my immersion chiller after the fruit is sanitized (can't do that 
with a carboy).  Dan McConnell provided a masterful analysis of where I 
was likely to find the souce(s) of my problems:  underpitching (HUGE), and 
siphon hoses and Gate valves harboring bad bacs.  I went to larger 
cultures, replaced the siphon hoses and gate valves (with ball valves), 
and voila, good beer.  Dr. Dan: My Hero.  

On the siphon hose front, I took to running a half gallon of "hot off the 
stove" boiling water through my sanitized siphon hoses (yes, I have some 
very wavy racking canes, but I don't care), and three or four gallons of 
near-boiling H2O through my sanitized cornies and hoses before I rack the 
new beer into them.  Yes indeed, I have to wear gloves, and the steam has 
opened my pores on many an occasion, but not many nasties can survive 
that.  You can even leave the hot H2O in the cane to start the beer 
siphon.  I have made several fine fruit beers with plastic since, and I 
don't foresee giving it up.

217 Days until the Historic AHA 2000 conference in Detroit.
June 22, 23 & 24.
Dozens of great presentations, a whole country's worth of great beer.
Beer2K: The best beer event of the new millenium.

Ken Schramm
Troy, MI
Can't decide if it's better to be close to Jeff's Beer or his Bread

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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:02:34 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Summer brewing

"Darren Robey" <drobey at awb.com.au> asks from Oz:
>OK all you northern types coming out of summer and heading into winter,
>What sort of fermented beverages do people make over summer that are suited
>to fermenting at the higher temperatures experienced?

We here in the north just ferment in our basements where it stays cool. ;-)

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:20:30 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Pronunciation

"Werrbach, Maria" <mwerrbach at mail.elgin.cc.il.us> asked:
>Fuggles.
>
>Does the 'fug' part rhyme with rug

Yes.  It's in the  O.E.D but the diacritical mark for the "u" isn't ASCII,
so I can't reproduce it here, but it is the same as in "rug" (I looked it
up, too, just to make sure).  It follows the general rule for pronouncing
vowels preceding double consonents - short; long when preceding single
consonents, as in "bugle."

If I had a nickle every time I heard it pronounced to rhyme with "bugles" I
could go out for a beer.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:36:04 -0500
From: "Scholz, Richard" <RScholz at refco.com>
Subject: Re: Summer Brewing

Darren Robey asks in HBD 3172:

> Here in Australia we're talking days of 30 Celsius and over so with the
techniques of cooling including the wet towel, the high 20's are about as
good as it gets without a fridge.<snip> what can I make that would be suited
to this temp. I'm talking beer styles, strains of yeast as well as all other
manners of fermented beverages. ??? <snip>

I have found that "Cooper's" yeast (from that little brewery in Leabrook SA
;^)) and Safel-40 yeast  both ferment good clean ales up into the 80's F (
25-30 C for the english unit impaired ) The Safel seem to be one of the most
neutral yeasts I've used at higher fermenting temps. Both of these are dry
yeasts and I always keep a couple of packets in the freezer for times when
the starter flask is funky. As to styles, many Belgian yeast strains are
fermented very warm to produce those classic dubbel, tripel, or abbey
flavors. With the dry yeast above any clean style ale works. I made a Red
rye ale and a porter and a blonde ale this summer reusing the safel-40 ale
yeast three times with nice clean fermentations at temps ranging from 72-82
F.  Hope this helps.
- ---
Richard L Scholz
Brooklyn, NY
(212) 587-6203


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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:03:50 -0600 (CST)
From: joh3n at webtv.net (John Hahne)
Subject: Sanitation

I  haven't been able to find out about this. Would it do any  good, or
harm, to spray the area with Lysol, or such, prior to brewing?
                                       Thanks,
                                                    John


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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:08:19 -0600
From: MVachow at newman.k12.la.us
Subject: State of Beer Address:  New Orleans

Dominick's post script yesterday on the sorry state of beer in New Orleans
came hard on the heels of my Oregonian sister's yearly invitation to come
out for the Portland Winter Brew Fest (pay-back for my rainy weather jokes)
and an announcement from a Pullyallup resident on the Brewery BBS that Jubel
Ale, Winterhook, Wassail Ale, Celebration Ale, et al. have hit the local
grocery shelves.  So, be grateful out there in beer nirvana, ya bums, and
remember all of us poor slobs living in the land where Rolling Rock is an
import.  And, if you do have occasion to come to New Orleans, leave your
hops jones behind, as Dominick says, but try Abita's bock, a seasonal
released for Carnival time, and don't miss Acadian Brewing's pils and helles
bock.  And, please, for the love of man, bring me a case of Celebration Ale!

Mike


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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 10:12:46 -0500
From: "Strom C. Thacker" <sthacker at bu.edu>
Subject: Stuck kettle drain, siphon starter

Randy Miner had problems with his kettle drain clogging in his 
converted sankey boiler.  I use a similar system, with a 3/8" 90 
degree ss dip tube.  I too kept getting slow runoff that would clog 
easily, especially using pellet hops.  My solution was to put a 8 or 
10' ss false bottom in the bottom of the boiling kettle.  It works 
great, especially with whole hops, which form a nice filter bed.  I 
haven't used it yet with 100% pellet hops, but I suspect that the hop 
particles would go through the false bottom into the fermenter.  I 
got the false bottom from Stainless in Seattle (yadda yadda) on sale 
(about $15, incl. shipping) this summer.

Several people have replied re: starting a siphon by sucking.  I've 
used a simple gadget for about 7 years that has worked well for me. 
It's bulb primer for an outboard boat motor.  I got it at a marine 
supply store.  I first read about it in the Zymurgy gadgets special 
issue, c. 1992.  You just sanitize and drain it, attach to the end of 
your racking hose and pump until the hose begins to fill with beer. 
Then remove it and lower the hose into the receiving vessel.  You can 
clamp off the hose as soon as it fills with beer, or just hold the 
bulb primer up high so the siphon doesn't flow through it (if a 
little gets in, just rinse it out).

Cheers,
Strom Thacker


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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:02:27 -0500
From: Brian Pickerill <00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu>
Subject: When the hammock breaks, mamma you gotta move!

"Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com> said:
>(Just be safe about
>it--I used to lay back on my hammock with the carboy on my belly to remove
>an risk of dropping it. Now I just use O2....)

Oh, man!  Am I the only one who has broken a hammock?  I would not have
wanted a carboy on (or in) my lap, gut, etc...  This could be the most
gruesome carboy story yet!


Brian Pickerill, Muncie Malt Mashers, Muncie, IN



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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 09:06:26 MST
From: "Doug Marion" <mariondoug at hotmail.com>
Subject: No Foam in Idaho

Thanks to Dave Burley for his info on my "no foaming" problem. I think with 
his help I may have it nailed down now.

I didn't include the gory details of the recipie because I didn't think the 
problem was in the recipie, but I do think now that there was a faulty 
ingredient. I actually suspected what the problem was from further 
observations even before reading Dave's post. Thanks to Dave's info on 
surfectants,and oils, its probably not too hard to figure out.

My ESB recipie used some home made caramel both in the boil and towards the 
sugar,MARGARINE OR BUTTER,corn syrup,and a little salt.
With the opperative ingredient (or rather inopperative) here being the 
margarine or butter. My guess is the fat and oils in the butter is what 
caused the wort not to foam during aeration and also during fermentation. Is 
that right all you scientists out there?

In all of the books and magazines I've read in my years of brewing, I have 
never seen mention of this. If this is what happened to me, to anyone 
contemplating trying caramel in a recipie, USE A CARAMEL RECIPIE WITHOUT THE 
MARGARINE OR BUTTER!

Now comes the real question. Will the finished beer be able to form and 
maintain a head? If not, I may not even finish the beer. Does the butter 
have any effect on the health or viability of the yeast? Can I save the 
yeast and effectively use on another batch? Any comments or experience from 
the collective on this subject would be appreciated. It may also save others 
from the same experience. Maybe others have had the same thing happen but 
not known what caused it. Or maybe I'm just ignorant or stupid or both.
Thanks too all.

Brew like a maniac,
Doug Marion

______________________________________________________


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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:16:53 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re:  FWH

"Robert J. Waddell" <<rjw at dimensional.com> asks about FWH:


>for some reason 

>I picked up an inference in the articles that the First Wort Hops

>were only the flavor and aroma hops and that they should be 

>removed from the wort JUST before a boil was attained, then the 

>bittering hops were added about 15-20 minutes after the full boil 

>started and the hot break had been removed.


I suppose this would work for the flavor, but it is not the standard
method, and I suspect you would not get the same bitterness results. 
The FW hops are left in for the boil.  This is my standard procedure
for Pilsners now, including CAPs.  While this is not mentioned in Wahl
and Henius as being used 100 years ago in the US, I suspect it may have
been since US lager brewers were predominantly trained in Germany or if
not, then by German trained teachers, in German, so it seems likely it
would have been known.  I and several other brewers have actually made
beer with all of the hops used as FWH with interesting results.  Lots
of hop flavor and aroma.


Since traffic is light, I thought I'd give the salient parts of the
results of the German FWH investigation as reported by Dave Draper on
his FWH page (which I recommend for the big picture)
http://brew.oeonline.com/ddraper/beer/1stwort.html


"3. Tasting panel results: the FWH beers were overwhelmingly preferred
over the reference beers in triangular taste tests (i.e., each taster
was given three beers, two of either the reference beer or the FWH
beer, and one of the other, and had to correctly identify which two
were alike before their preference results were incorporated in the
database). 11 of 12 tasters of each beer preferred the FWH beer. The
main reasons given for the preference: "a fine, unobtrusive hop aroma;
a more harmonic beer; a more uniform bitterness."


"4. Analytical results--bitterness: The FWH beers had more IBUs than
did the reference beers. Brew A: Ref beer was 37.9 IBU, FWH beer was
39.6 IBU. Brew B: Ref beer was 27.2 IBU, FWH beer was 32.8 IBU. This
should come as no surprise, since more hops were in the kettle for the
boil in the FWH beers than in the Reference beers. Prior to
fermentation, the worts from both breweries showed the following
features: the FWH wort had substantially more isomerized alpha acids,
but less non-isomerized alphas. This was particularly true of Brew B,
which had a higher proportion of first-wort hops. Nevertheless, the
bitterness of the FWH beers was described as more pleasing than the
(slightly weaker) bitterness of the reference beers."


Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu

"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943.


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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 11:22:11 -0600
From: "Charles Walker" <charlybill at xpressway.net>
Subject: malt mill

Greetings all !!   I am currently moving forward (finally) with plans to
build a 3 vessel home brewery and to get back to brewing after an extended
absence from same. One of the additions to my current equipment is a grain
mill. The one I am considering is the Malt Mill by Schmidling. How about
some feedback on that as well as adjustable or non-adjustable rollers. Is
the adjustable model worth the extra? I will be brewing 10 gal batches of
various beers from wheat to large brews.
Thanks, Charlie


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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 12:24:27 -0500
From: Rick Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Counterflow Chillers

Ok, I'm making my Christmas wish list and need to know about counterflow
wort chillers.  I would specifically like to see opinions on the Heart's
Superchiller and the P.B.S. Maxichiller or are there other killer chillers
out there?  Looking at factors such price, quality, efficiency,
construction materials, ease of cleaning/sanitizing, size, etc. which would
be your choice?  Has anyone had experience with both?  There was a test
published in Zymurgy of various CF chillers, but P.B.S. Maxichiller was not
among them.  Any guidance appreciated.

TIA,



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Date: 18 Nov 1999 09:35:57 -0800
From: alehouse at homepage.com
Subject: pLambic Fermentation Schedules

pLambic Brewers,   
                                          
I have recently embarked on the pLambic Odyssey.  Being this is my 
first attempt and I am not very trusting of the single mixed culture of 
sacc., pedio., brett., et al. to do the job right, I started the fermentation 
off with a clean ale yeast in a plastic fermenter.  Now that the main ale 
fermentation is coming to completion it's time to inoculate with the 
other "bugs".  I have decided against the planned inoculation 
schedule of individual strains and have decided to add the Wyeast 
mixed Lambic-style blend at this point.  At one month into the 
fermentation with ale-only yeast, I figure conditions are right just about 
now to support the growth of the more fastidious organisms.     

Suggestions on racking to glass (along with the existing yeast) vs. 
continuing in plastic?   

Experiences with mixed culture vs. individual strain inoculation 
schedule?   

Sometime next year (after cherry season and if I have the beginnings 
of a good lambic) I plan on racking on top of a 50/50% mixture of 
sweet and sour cherries at a ratio of 2lb/gal.  I'll hand-pick the 
cherries, wash them, treat with metabisulfite, rinse and freeze.  I had 
great results with frozen cherries vs. fresh cherries in past  fruit beers.  
The freezing action breaks the cell walls and ruptures the skin nicely 
for the ferment.  No need to crush!  A little pectin enzyme and a 
sparge bag to hold  the fruit skins & pits and you're golden.   

Suggestions on racking onto fruit vs. adding fruit to beer?                 

After a couple of months on the fruit, I'll probably rack to glass until the 
beer has reached the 18 month mark and either blend with a small 
amount from a second batch of young lambic or just go straight to the 
bottle with priming sugar.   Experiences with blending a Kriek vs. 
priming sugar/DME priming?   

If the brew shows promise, I'd like to do it right and bottle for extended 
storage. I am considering packaging in a bottle less than 12 oz. in 
volume  with a cork,  wax plug and cap.  Bottle conditioning should 
probably be complete around the 2 year mark.   

Any suggestions here?   

I've read "Lambic" by JXG (many times), read other numerous articles 
on lambics and visited a host of websites on the subject.  I still prefer 
to listen to the advice and experiences of fellow hombrewers who have 
successfully brewed the style on a homebrew scale with hombrew 
methods using homebrew equipment.  I'm also sure anyone who is 
willing to devote the amount time to making this style and having the 
patience to wait years to taste the fruit of their labor will probably be 
as critical as I am in the evaluation of their own brew.   

Private e-mails are certainly welcome.   
              
Please forgive me if this is a repeated posting as the first one was 
rejected for line length and the second try seems to have gotten lost 
around the time of the last server belch.  Try, try again...

Glen Pannicke
e-mail: alehouse at homepage.com
http://alehouse.homepage.com

__________________________________________


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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 13:57:38 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Quick Carbonation, N'Orleans beer

Brewsters:

Dan asks about quick carbonation methods for his keg.

It has been my experience and others that when beer
is first carbonated artificially it does not have the same
size bubbles as when it has been allowed to rest for a
few days. Also carbonation with dry ice has been tried
many times ( including by yours truly in a long ago era)
and it is generally not acceptable. Some dry ice has sulfur
dioxide as a by-product depending on its source.

I suggest you try using a 2 micron SS aeration stone.
I saw such a a stone attached to a SS tube replacing
the input tube in a cornie for sale in a brewing supply
catalog. Pressurizing at 15 to 25 # ( depending on the
final carbonation level)  was reputed to produce
carbonated beer in as little as 6 hours with no shaking. 

Probably it is better than that if you are really in a hurry

I suppose once you have this beer carbonated
you could leave the beer there or push this beer into
another cornie or bottle it. To be sure you have no
oxygen in the receiving cornie, first fill it with water
and push the water out with CO2. Just blowing CO2
into a cornie will not work unless you are prepared
to blow in an incredible amount of CO2 - like a hundred
volumes, as I recall I calculated.
- -----------------------------------
Dominick complained about N'Orleans being a beer
wasteland. Too bad you didn't stop by the Crescent
City Brewery across from the Cafe DuMonde. I did
an East Coast/Southern US tour a couple of years ago.
Of selected craft breweries/pubs this was wonderful,
with authentic lagers, the rest of the breweries/pubs
offerings were disappointing.
- -----------------------------------
Keep on Brewin'


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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 14:15:47 -0600
From: "Brett A. Spivy" <baspivy at softdisk.com>
Subject: Hyperbole in "The Big Easy"

Domenick, Domenick, Domenick . . .

Now what are we to do with you?  While it is true that the bulk of
Abita's brews are distinctly low IBU, and that there is a LOT of bad
beer in N'awlins,

<snip>        New Orleans, a beer wasteland.          <snip>

is an awfully strong statement -- and a blatantly false one at that.
Abita brews one seasonal and at least one full time brew that (when
fresh) can bring a smile to the face of the most dour of North American
hop farmers.  Mind you, these are not brews for the HOP HEAD, 90 IBU nut
jobs that believe that more is better whether its beer, bitterness,
bratwursts, or brewing equipment.  They are though, well balanced and
excellent beers.

As for the BudMillerCoors, I think the problem lay not with the lack of
good beer, but instead with your choice of establishment.  You obviously
did not make it into:

Lagers
(a fine selection of craft, micro, and import as well as their own beer)

or

Cooter Brown's
(right in the district and in the top five nationally of "beers on tap"
- -- if memory serves and it rarely does, something like 125 to choose
from)

If all you did was make a sales call on Brew-Ha-Ha (great homebrew shop
except for leaving their bulk bucket purchases of Alexander's extract in
the front window all the time - I really love this place), eat turtle
soup at Arnaud's and Bananas Foster at Brennan's, then you missed the
real heart of the city.  Chef Duke at Cafe Giovanni's rejects (for
freshness) as many cases of quality micro brews as he accepts delivery
of, and the arrogant, much - maligned Emeril who is a brilliant Chef and
a hell of a nice guy if you can get to know him, actually knows what he
likes to taste in beer and as such carries a couple of nice micros on
his menu as well as Warstiener (sp?!?).

Next time get a guide (I bet for a pint, Ron Laborde or one of his club
brothers from the Crescent City Brewers would do it -- for two pints I'm
likely to drive down from Shreveport).  Hell, ask a cabbie!  You may
just end up at the Red Room drinking a nice imported Iambic or THE BAR,
sitting on furniture designed by the owner, viewing B & W photographs of
lesbian models taken by the bartender, drinking the finest Black and Tan
(BlackAsCoal Sweet Stout & Carp LA Pale Ale) you've ever had brewed by
the owner's wife.

Brett A. Spivy
A transplanted Tennesseean who's fallen in love with this bassackwards,
politically corupt, food-loving, bayou covered, reptile infested (oops,
already mentioned the politicians) sportsman's paradise.


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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:30:29 EST
From: MaltHound at aol.com
Subject: re: kettle drain & mason jar hop back

In HBD 3172 Randy Miner <randyminer at mpinet.net> asks:

"Do others use a scrubber as a filter
and avoid this problem?  Could I have been pulling it out too
fast?  Is a valve/tube clamp needed to keep the
flow slow?  I assume I'd have to put it near the
low end of the tubing so I don't get air coming
up the hose when the flow is too slow?  Is the
only solution to use whole hops?"

Bingo!  Use whole hops or at least some whole hops in each batch and your 
problem will disappear.  I too have had clogging due to pellet hop spooge 
gumming up the chore-boy strainer, but never a problem with whole hops.  What 
I have taken to doing lately is using pellets for the higher AA bittering 
hops and whole flowers for the aroma & flavor hops.  Since there is only ~ an 
oz. of pellets they are not a problem with the filtering of the leaves there.

WRT the seal on your mason jar hop back, why not find one of the rubber 
gaskets that fit the older style mason jars.  Some of the really old ones had 
a glass top that is sealed to the jar via a rubber gasket and swing top bail 
thingey like an overgrown Grolsh bottle.

Let me know how that works for you since I might like to make one of these 
someday. 

Regards,
Fred Wills
Londonderry, NH

PS - WRT wotten egg water in NH, my well water is not wotten in the least and 
makes eggcelent beer with no treatment watsoevah!  Cheers! 



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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:36:13 EST
From: JPullum127 at aol.com
Subject: yeast choice sam adams boston lager clone/


i really like the sam adams boston lager.     ,and am thinking of trying an 
allgrain
clone. i know about the hallertau mittelfruh and tettnanger hops, but was
wondering on a good yeast choice for it.     as long as we are at it any


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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:44:22 EST
From: MaltHound at aol.com
Subject: Over bittered beer fixer-uppers

In HBD 3172 Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> asks:

"Question:  What can I do to this beer to help balance out the
bitterness?  I thought about adding 4oz of maltodextrin powder to
bump the sweetness back up again, but was unsure if I'd just wind
up with a sweet and bitter beer.  Any thoughts?"

Maltodextrin will increase the residual gravity, but will not appreciably 
sweeten the beer.  It doesn't taste sweet.  Taste some and see for yourself.  
What you may have meant was to use lactose (milk sugar) or some other 
unfermentable sugar to try and balance the flavor.  That might work.

Another alternative would be to boil-up a quick batch of under / un-hopped 
brew which could be blended wit the stuff you have now.  Some quick 
calculations could reveal how much dilutiuon would be desireable.  You could 
make this wort from extract for simpicity and then just dump it into the 


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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 17:18:40 -0500
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Fw: high temp brewing


- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: Alan Meeker <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu>
To: <post@hbd.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 1999 10:27 AM
Subject: high temp brewing



> > So my question is... what can I make that would be suited to this temp.
> I'm
> > talking beer styles, strains of yeast as well as all other manners of
> > fermented beverages...


 Darren, welcome to the wide wide world of Belgian beer styles!!
 
 -Alan Meeker 


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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 17:51:30 -0500
From: Bob.Sutton at fluor.com
Subject: Dry Ice Forced Carbonation



Dan asked about using dry ice to force carbonate his brews...

Dan - Much of the dry ice sold to the public isn't food-grade per se and is apt
to have oil and other objectionable contaminants. However, if your supplier has
a clean, pure supply of dry ice, there's no reason you couldn't calculate the
volumes of CO2 required for carbonation and weigh out the required quantity.

That said, I'd be concerned about over-pressuring the keg if the gaseous CO2
generation rate exceeds the CO2 solubilization take-up rate. Reminds me of those
fond years when we'd add a handful of dry ice and a cup of water into a plastic
2-liter soft drink bottle, seal the cap, and wait.... baloooooooey !!!!

Bob
Fruit Fly Brewhaus
Yesterdays' Technology Today
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Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 06:42:54 -0800
From: Michael Kowalczyk <mikekowal at megsinet.net>
Subject: scrubbies and pellets

Back in HBD#3163 Kurt laments using scrubbies w/pellets.

Kurt, it's a bitch.  After about a year of tring to syphon using racking
cane, false bottom, easymasher, etc...  I finally came on the best strainer. 
A choreboy attached to a racking cane.   Worked very well for 2 years. 
Crystal clear wort, never a clog etc....   I swear by it.  Tell all my
friends and the such.

When I built my 3 tier I used the scrubbies in a sankey.  I attached them to
a T fitting so that the scrubbies hug the sides.  Worked wonderfully for 3
brews.  I decided to experiment w/pellets.  Bought 2 pounds of pellets and
whole hops from hoptech and started brewing.  I use 1/2 whole and 1/2
pellets.   CLOG CITY.  Damn that was a frustrating brew!

I realized in the last 2 years I used either whole hops or plugs.  I
immersion cooled and didn't whirlpool.   The hops set up a very nice filter
bed and the wort was break free.  I will always use scrubbies w/whole hops or
plugs.  I heartilly recommend it.

Now I'm stuck with 2 lb of pellets.  I'm determined to figure out a way to
use them.  Anyone have any suggestions?  I will try whirlpooling next time. 
I'll letyou know what happens.

 - Mike
Bishop's Gate Brewery
New Lenox. Il.

p.s.  Scrubbies are the steel or copper pads used to scrub pans and such. A
great brand is chore boy.  The usual way to use them is to attach them to
your racking cane and siphon as usual.  I use a copper pipe and a hose clamp
to connect mine.   Works fantastic... with whole hops....


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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 20:13:52 -0600
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: Thoughts for Dave Riedel, and Q:long-term gravity

Dave - for your 7.5 gal keg, if you're doing ales, why not do a
high-gravity brew and add 2.x gal boiled, cooled and aerated water to the
primary, or non-aerated water to the keg?  It's crude, but the mega-brewers
make Molson's that way, so a brown ale may even be improved.

I've been thinking about your point #2, and I plan to put a mild ale in a
corny, prime it, serve half without introducing any air, then serve the
rest replacing the volume 50/50 with air & CO2 to see how quickly the
flavour changes.

My question:  I can just about get my FG, or at least the final sweetness
where I want it 4 times out of 5 (haven't quite nailed lagers yet). 
Stability in bottle-primed beer is good, even with storage through 85-95 F
summer temperatures - no oxidation, no autolysis flavours.  However, after
6-9 months, the flavour starts getting really dry and the body starts to
disappear.  Is this:
 - residual attenuative ability of the yeast?
 - proteolytic enzymes from a little autolyzed yeast?
 - a non-tasteable level of infection by something with amylolytic
abilities?
or something else?  It is similar to the effect that improves strong beers
with age.

In other cases I sometimes suspect my yeasts of slowly metabolizing
maltotriose or maltotetraose.  Is there anything to be done in the mash
procedure to control this?  I wonder if I should raise the mash temperature
to leave more dextrins and increase pitching rate to equally increase
attenuation so that the oligosaccharides more neatly divide into
"fermentable" and "non-fermentable".

What thoughts or experience do my fellow brewers have on this item?

Thanks & cheers
Sean


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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 22:11:06 -0600
From: Brian Dreckshage <dreck at concentric.net>
Subject: Reminder - Happy Holidays Homebrew Competition

AHA Sanctioned Competition
Hosted by the St. Louis Brews
December 10 and 11, entries accepted 11/22 through 12/4.
For more info go to: www.stlbrews.org
Judges and Stewards needed as well.
Or call Brian Dreckshage 800-573-3067


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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 22:37:54 -0600
From: Louis Bonham <lkbonham at hbd.org>
Subject: MCAB 3 Announcement

Hi folks:

Well, it's that time again . . . . . . news from MCAB
central . . . .

First, the Masters Championship of Amateur Brewing ("MCAB")
welcomes Brewing News as an MCAB sponsor, and its publisher
Bill Metzger to the MCAB Steering Committee.  We also
welcome the ever-popular Rob "Jethro Gump" Moline as an "at
large" member of the Committee.

Second . . . . the Qualifying Styles for MCAB 3 (which will
be held in early 2001) have now been set . . . These are
based on the new "unified" BJCP-AHA style guides, so there
are a few changes and a slight expansion in the number of
QS's to 20.  Please forward this list to homebrew shops,
club newsletters, etc., etc., etc.

The MCAB 3 Qualifying Styles are
(BJCP Category in parenthesis):

Classic American Pilsner (1C)
Dormunder Export (2C)
Cream Ale (3C)
Ordinary Bitter (4A)
Scottish Ales (5 -- all subcategories)
APA (6A)
IPA (7)
Koelsch & Altbier (8 -- all subcategories)
German Amber (9 -- all subcategories)
American Brown (10D)
English / Scotch Strong Ales (11 -- all subcategories)
American Barley Wine (12B)
European Dark Lager (13 -- all subcategories)
Traditional Bock (14A)
Robust Porter (15A)
Dry Stout (16A)
Bavarian Weizen (17A)
Strong Belgian Ales (18 -- all subcategories)
Witbier (19B)
Lambic and Belgian Sour Beers (20 -- all subcategories)

So, start your brew kettles . . . the first Qualifying
Events for MCAB 3 will be in February 2000.

Third, we'll be making the announcement of the MCAB 3
Qualifying Events shortly (hopefully, this Sunday
afternoon).

Last, remember that MCAB 2 will be March 24-25, 2000 in St.
Louis, hosted by the St. Louis Brews homebrew club.  Bob
Boland and his crew have been hard at work and have a great
weekend planned  . . . including top notch technical
presentations, VIP tours of a certain "two initial" brewery
in that town, and lots more.  Mark your calendars, scrape
together those frequent flier miles, hoard your spousal beer
bullets, etc., etc., etc.  . . . but make your plans to join
us for a serious beer geek weekend . . . (Watch the MCAB
website and the HBD for details . . . . )

As always, if you have questions or are interested in
supporting the MCAB, drop me a line.

Louis K. Bonham
lkbonham at hbd.org


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---