---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Cock Ale (ensmingr)
  Mn(s) (AJ)
  Forbidden Fruit? (David Sweeney)
  Brillo and SS304 Kegs (David Sweeney)
  ortho-phosphoric acid, aka 'TERMINATOR' ("Sieben, Richard")
  Iron in your water (Nathan Kanous)
  o-phosphoric acid (Nathan Kanous)
  Re: steam blows away HERMS (RobertJ)
  Brimstone BIG Ale SALE!!! ("Alan Meeker")
  George's yeast starter advice ("Alan Meeker")
  Grolsch Amber Ale ("John Watts")
  Malt mills (LaBorde, Ronald)
  yeast washing (Clifton Moore)
  HopDevil/Tuppers ("Jim Busch")
  budvar malt ("St. Patrick's")
  steam blows away HERMS?????? (Rod Prather)
  Corn meal for CAP (Randy Ricchi)
  More on Steam Injected RIMS (William Macher)
  reducing agents for beer ("Sean Richens")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 00:38:56 -0500
From: ensmingr at npac.syr.edu
Subject: Cock Ale

I'm interested in making a Cock Ale and, since there's not
much info on this in the HBD archives, would like to hear
from homebrewers who have tried this. A big concern I have
is that the fowl will foul my beer. Any thoughts on this?

I think Boston Brewing (Sam Adams) made a version of Cock
Ale for the GABF a few years ago. Any details on their
procedures? Did anyone out there taste it?

For those of you unfamiliar with this "style", here is a
description of a traditional recipe (see
http://www.insolwwb.net/~thiel/pagethree.html ):

"Take ten gallons new ale and a large cock; parboil the
cock, flay him, and stamp him on a stone mortar till all
bones are broke, putting cock into two quarts of sweet sack
and put it to three pounds of raisins, blades of mace, many
cloves, ground peppers; all these into a canvas bag...
before the ale had done worked, put the ale and bag together
in the vessel for nine day then bottle it up... give time to
age"

A modern recipe is in Cats Meow 3 (see
http://brewery.org/brewery/cm3/recs/13_23.html ):

"Take a few pieces of cooked chicken and a few chicken bones
(approx one tenth of the edible portion of the bird) well
crushed or minced.

Also take half of pound of raisins, a very little mace, and
one or maybe two cloves. Add all these ingredients to half a
bottle of strong country white wine. Soak for 24 hrs. Then
make one gallon of beer as follows:

1 lb Malt extract
1 Oz Hops
1/2 lb demerarra sugar
1 gallon water
Yeast and nutrient

Add the whole of the chicken mixture to the beer at the end
of the second day. Fermentation will last six or seven days
longer than usual and the ale should be matured at least one
month in the bottle. This cock ale is of the barley wine
type."

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY


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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 13:26:22 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Mn(s)

Further to Dave B's comments on permanganate: It is widely used in the
water treatment industry, both on the municipal water treatment plant
and home treatment scales (the latter as described in my post of
yesterday). The permanganate does indeed oxidize things in the water
other than iron and manganese. That's what it's used for - in particular
to attack organics in order to keep the potential for THM formation
down. The end products of the reduction of permanganate are  the oxides
(MnO2; Mn2O3; Mn3O4) and this is controlled by keeping the process in
the right part of the "pE-pH diagram" (high pH and ORP's above about
 -0.4 V). Thus it is unlikely that you will be picking up manganese
nodules from the bottom of your fermenter. Who'd believe that old story
anyway?

The oxides are somewhat difficult to remove from the water. The
elaborate flocculation and polish filtering operations carried out in a
municipal plant are equal to the task and in the home setup, that's what
the greensand is for. Remember that this is not a problem if oxidizers
other than permanganate are used AND the water does not contain
appreciable manganese.

As to Dave's idea about raising pH to precipitate iron, manganese,
calcium, magnesium, carbonate - that's spot on but don't do it with lye.
Do it with lime (food grade lime is available in the canning supplies
dept. of supermarkets). The usual method involves mixing a calculated
amount of  lime with about a third of the water to be treated. This
drives the pH up to the point where magnesium hydroxide forms and
precipitates. The decanted water is then titrated with the remainder of
the water volume to a pH of 8.3 or so. This removes a lot of the
bicarbonate (and, unfortunately) calcium with it. About a third of the
magnesium is removed.

My twist on the method is similar to Dave's suggestion and gets more of
the bicarb and magnesium out (most of the calcium goes too but the lime
supplies replacement Ca). Use lime to get the pH way up there (11 - 12)
on the entire volume. After decanting you'll have water at high pH and
high hydroxide alkalinity with a fair amount of Ca(OH)2 in it but most
of the original calcium, magnesium, carbonate, iron, manganese etc. will
have been disposed of. Now neutralize the hydroxide alkalinity with
acid. There is a huge supply of free acid available out there in the air
and it's harmless. Just bubble air through the water until it's
hydroxide alkalinity is zeroed (pH < 8.3) and its carbonate alkalinity
is at a value you can live with. Note that this can take a long time
depending on how you do it. Or, if you'd like a little mouth feel in
your beer (and chloride isn't high already), use some hydrochloric acid
(careful with this stuff) to neutralize part or all of the hydroxide
alkalinity. Done right, the bicarbonate alkalinity should be much lower
than when you started.

Note that sulfuric acid can also be used to neutralize leaving sulfate
ion in the water. It seems unlikely that you'd want to do that since
people brewing ales with high sulfate levels generally don't soften
their water.

What I've just described is great for decarbonating water. While I have
done this procedure for decarbonation I have never tried it for iron or
manganese removal (because I have neither in my water at above trace
levels). Should work but remember that oxidation is still required so be
sure that the water has been well aerated first.

- --
A. J. deLange
Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.



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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:20:25 -0600
From: David Sweeney <David at stulife2.tamu.edu>
Subject: Forbidden Fruit?

Forgive my ignorance.  But with all this talk about BT and Zymurgy, why
doesn't anyone ever mention Brew Your Own (BYO)? Is this (admittedly
neophyte oriented) periodical forbidden fruit for discussion or
consideration?  I'm not endorsing one or the other, but I look forward to
getting my monthly BYO.

David Sweeney
Adaptive Technology Services
Texas A&M University


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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 07:28:07 -0600
From: David Sweeney <David at stulife2.tamu.edu>
Subject: Brillo and SS304 Kegs

I seem to remember reading somewhere that you should not use an ordinary
steel wool pad to clean your 304SS brewing kegs.  Although the SS304 itself
won't rust, bits and pieces of the steel wool get embedded in the scratches
and they will rust.  Is this true? If so, why can we use Brillo pads on our
pots in the kitchen?  What about using a SS scrub pad?  Is that safe?

David Sweeney
Adaptive Technology Services
Texas A&M University


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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 08:05:18 -0600
From: "Sieben, Richard" <SIER1 at Aerial1.com>
Subject: ortho-phosphoric acid, aka 'TERMINATOR'

Tomas Hamann related a story of this one shot cleanse/sanitizer, but at a
rate of 1tsp / 2 liters, I think that converts to about 3 tablespoons for a
5 gallon carboy. (corrrect me if I am wrong, because I am not sure, but
isn't 3 tsp = 1 tblsp?)  Anyway, I think this is what Star San is, but you
use only 2 tablespoons for 5 gallons and it is a sanitizer only.  If you
have visible gunk, you still need a cleanser to get it off before a
sanitizer can do it's work.  Now my question on this is, is it cheaper than
Star San?  How much $ for what size bottle of product?

Rich Sieben


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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 08:07:48 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Iron in your water

I'm impressed with how scientifically the reduction of iron in drinking 
water has been approached.  Why not just dilute the drinking water with 
deionized or RO water?  Seems much simpler to me.  Our water in Madison is 
hard enough to walk on (even in the summer when it's not frozen).  I buy RO 
water and I use that to dilute my city water to meet my needs.  Much easier 
than using permanganate solutions and such.  Consider diluting your iron.


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 08:19:29 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: o-phosphoric acid

Thomas asks about his o-phosporic acid "TERMINATOR" One-Shot yada, yada, 
yada.  Two thoughts from my section in the peanut gallery.

First, he would like to compare it to bleach.  Bleach is not the best 
sanitizer against such lovely critters as Pediococcus (Fix, AoBT).  I don't 
use bleach anymore.....just iodine based sanitizers and other better 
sanitizers.

Second, I'd bet there is something other than o-phosphoric acid in this 
stuff, isn't there?  Must be.  As my brain works, I see quaternary ammonium 
ions as requiring some sort of organic acid (an H+ donor) to maintain their 
quaternary structure and function as sanitizers.  I'm going to guess that 
this stuff may have something other than o-phosphoric acid and that 
"something" may be a quat.  If it is, this is going to be much better than 
bleach, as I belive, quaternary ammonium compounds are considered to be 
among some of the best sanitizers out there.

Now, this being said, I could be totally wrong and if anyone cares to prove 
me wrong, please do it in public so everybody can learn.   I always 
recommend those pencils with large erasers so students can learn more.
nathan in madison, wi



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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:02:53 -0500
From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com>
Subject: Re: steam blows away HERMS

"Robert Zukosky" <mrzar at ic.net> wrote:

Using a RIMS for about two years, I find my system to be problematic. I have
a typical electrical heater element and March pump doing about 5+ gpm with
1/2" hard plumbing. Mash tun is a picnic cooler (56qt). .......... 
Solution ----- STEAM.
Had I known how easy implementation of steam to my system was I would have
designed it in originally. Inexpensive - 25 to 30 bucks. Too simple, too
easy, fellow brewers. I now get a temp speed of 2.5F/min without and
4.0+F/min with the heater for 7.0 gal H2O. ....


Robert, I think what you are saying is Steam plus RIMS, blows away RIMS,
not HERMS and is faster than steam alone. As I recall, about a year ago
someone else posted information on steam injection and also achieved about
2 - 2.5 deg/min temperature increases.

>From what I have seen on the web most liquid to liquid heat exchange
systems also heat at 2-2.5 deg/min. for 10 gal batches. Keep in mind when
looking at heating rates one should also be aware of recirculating wort
temperature.

PBS' HERMS(tm) raises mash temp of 5.5 gal of water + 17 lbs. of grain (the
weight equivalent of 7.5 gals of water) at 4 deg/min, from 120 to 150F,
while keeping recirculating wort below 160F. Water alone will heat at a
faster rate as will heating from 105 to 150F. I have also heated 8.75 gal
of water and 26 lbs of grain (the weight equivalent of 11.75 gals of water)
at 2.2 deg/min.

In my opinion, the advantages of a liquid to liquid heat exchange system
over others are: speed of heating, controlability and simplicity of
construction and operation. Links to several different heat exchange
systems can be found on our home page.

Bob


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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:20:58 -0500
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Brimstone BIG Ale SALE!!!

Hi All.

If you are a fan of Brimstone's barleywine "BIG" and live in the Baltimore
metro area then get yourself over to Well's liquors on York Rd. They are
clearing out their remaining stock for only $3.99 a six-pack!! These were
bottled in October 1998 and have tops dipped in hard wax. The weird thing
about them is that the O.G. listed on the label is 1.058 which seems like it
/has/ to be a misprint (especially after having tasted one!). Perhaps it
should read 1.085? 1.158??

At any rate, it is quite tasty and you can't beat the price with a stick!
Also, with the recent sale of Blueridge brewing it is questionable whether
or not this particular beer will be produced much longer - Get 'em while
they last!

 -Alan Meeker
 Charm City







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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 10:29:51 -0500
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: George's yeast starter advice

I'd add one point to George DePiro's advice for making up yeast starters...
He says to use light malt extract to make up the starter wort so as not to
overly influence the character of the beer when pitching the starter. This
implies that the entire starter (spent wort and all) will be pitched into
the virgin wort. He also correctly stresses the importance of getting good
oxygenation/aeration during the starter's growth. Unfortunately, if you
aerate the starter as you should then the starter wort will become horribly
oxidized and you don't want to pitch this into your virgin beer wort!
Effectively, you are making a batch of stale beer in the starter and, if you
are growing up enough volume for a proper pitch (say 1/10 or so of the batch
volume) then pitching this much stale starter may have a noticeable negative
effect on your finished beer. Best to either settle or spin out the starter
yeast prior to pitching...

 -Alan Meeker
 Baltimore MD


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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:35:37 -0600
From: "John Watts" <watts at radiks.net>
Subject: Grolsch Amber Ale

I've just gotten my father-in-law (a "whatever beer is the cheapest is okay" 
drinker) to try a bottle of Grolsch Amber Ale.  Now I'm looking for a clone 
recipe or at some suggestions on hops/grain bill/yeast.  

Hoppy Holidays!

John Watts


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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:55:37 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: Malt mills

Everything else being equal with malt mills, I noticed one reason to go with
the Maltmill verses the Valley mill.

Pasted on the Maltmill is an American flag, with the text "Made in the USA"

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu


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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 08:29:33 -0900
From: Clifton Moore <cmoore at gi.alaska.edu>
Subject: yeast washing

I mentioned "washing yeast" in my last post, and have been asked to
elaborate.

The text book approach to washing yeast involves the addition of sterile 
water to the brewing precipitates followed by active shaking to suspend 
into the fluid as much of the yeast as possible.  The sample is let
stand 
for several minutes allowing the heavier debris to settle.  The upper 
portion is poured off leaving behind as much of the sludge
(proteinaceous gop mixed with hops dust) as is practical.  The decanted
fluid will over 
time settle into a yeast bed covered by water.  This may be safely
stored in the refrigerator until your wife complains or your room mate
consumes it.  
When ready to use the yeast you may give it a sniff to determine if
anything nasty has evolved during storage.  All I can say here is, trust
your instincts.  
You know what yeast smell like, and this is what you want.  If it smells
like something you would not consider putting in your wort, then
do not use it.

The above description assumes aggressive sanitation techniques at every 
stage, but it is not so hard as to make it impractical.  I use quart
canning jars as my collection and storage vesicles.  I keep a bucket of
iodiform 
solution handy and several bottles of sterilized water.  Lids and jars
are stored in the iodiform and care is taken to touch only the outer rim
of
the lid closures.  A quick rinse with sterile water and the jar is ready
to
use.

Whenever you pour out of any container be sure to flame the edge of the 
container.  You want to flame all surfaces that will be exposed to your 
sample including drip areas.  Do not heat so aggressively as to break
the glass.  Let the rim cool a few seconds prior to pouring cold fluid
out of the jar.  I have never had it happen, but I am always prepared
for
glass breakage, so make your transfers over a sink and have it in your
mind 
that you are to drop any breaking glass rather than risk injury by
attempting to rescue samples should your containers fail.

It will not take long for you to collect a number of yeast samples so
that rejection of a questionable batch will not throw your brewing
schedule into disarray.  I also find it comforting to use my microscope
on
occasions where the sample has been sitting for a number of months.  I
like to check viability with a methylene blue stain.  Either the cell
membrane 
of a viable cell rejects penetration by the stain, or a metabolically 
active cell is able to convert the stain to a non colored form. 
Whatever the etiology of methylene blue suffice it to say that if the
yeast cell turns blue it may be counted as dead.  You want most (90%) of
the yeast
to be big fat balls with well defined organelles.  Not oddly shaped,
vacuole 
filled gobbs.  While viewing big yeast cells one should go to 400 power 
and look for the presence of any small black dots or rods will be a
bacterial infection and should be avoided.  There are methods of acid
washing to selectively kill bacteria while allowing the yeast to
survive, but I
would advise chucking the sample in favor of such  heroics.

One further note.  I will often use my primary fermenter as the first 
cleaning vessel.  The trouble may come when attempting a sterile 
transfer out of the carboy.  The rim is often a mess, so I first clean
it with an alcohol swab prior to flaming.  Two big dangers here. 
Alcohol 
and flames, and torching the rim of a carboy.  Be smart about any of 


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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 14:03:20 +0000
From: "Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com>
Subject: HopDevil/Tuppers

David Boyd writes:

< After a year plus hiatus I am trying to find the 
<time to brew again.  During this dry period I  became hooked on two
<commercial brews that are highly hopped.  Tuppers Hop Pocket
<Ale and another called Hop Devil.  I would love to brew a
<clone of these.

You have good taste, both of these brews have a similar heritage, the 
common link being Ron Barchet, brewmaster at Dominion when Tuppers 
was formulated and co-founder of Victory Brewing.  Of course, Tuppers 
was a joint effort between legendary beer hunter Bob Tupper, John 
Mallet and Ron.  The cynic in me asks why would one need to brew a 
clone of these if they are readily available in the home market, 
focus your efforts on hard to find styles like Altbier, Wits, Dubbels 
pre-pro lagers, fresh doppels etc.   Having said that Id be delighted 
to give you hints and general pointers on both beers and while you 
surely wont "clone" either beer you can indeed make excellent 
versions along the same lines at home.  (I brewed all grain 5.5% 
versions of HopDevilish beers at home for years before my tastes 
moved over more to the Pils, Exports, Alts and Fests).  You can also 
check the HBD archives, Ive given some pointers on HD before.

Both beers are around 6% ABV so you want a target OG of about 16P.
Both beers have a good deal of hops, aim for a good 60 BUs.  

Tuppers is paler than HD, so use less amber/vienna/crystal/munich 
malts in former.  Both use American type ale yeast, 1056 is a good 
fit.  For more complexity you might try the English strains but then 
you will get a beer with more fermentation character where these ales 
are cleaner to showcase the malt/hops.  Cascades are a large part of 
both beers but not exclusively.

Tuppers I believe uses Galena in the boil with Cascades for flavor.  
Dry hop with Cascades and Mt Hood.  Dominion uses pellets for the 
boil and then dry hops with whole flower.

HD is of the "4 C's" mold, Chinook, Columbus, Cascades and 
Centennials are all good choices.  No dry hops.  Victory uses all 
whole flower hops.

For 5 gallons one may hop like this, 2 oz for 60 mins, 1/2 oz for 30, 
1/2 oz for 20, 1 oz at end.  (depending on alpha acids and varieties 
of course).

Have fun,

Jim Busch




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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 13:45:33 -0500
From: "St. Patrick's" <stpats at bga.com>
Subject: budvar malt

Budweiser Budvar Undermodified Malt is now available thru St. Pat's.  In
all sincerity, this is the most important new product for homebrewers in
the past 10 years.

1)  This is indeed the same malt used by Budvar to produce the original
Budweiser.

2)  Most significantly, this is the only UNDERMODIFIED malt available for
at least the past decade.  As such, this malt requires a multiple
temperature mash.

We unloaded the container Friday afternoon.  Purely by chance, George Fix
was the first to place an order.  The container also had the Well-Modified
Moravian malt which we have imported for 2 years now and will continue to
offer.  Here are some malt specs on both.

Budvar specifies the barley must come not only from Hana, the region of
Moravia which DeClerck cites as the origin of the world's finest malting
barley, but from a small area in Hana near the town of Olomouc.  Our
well-modified Moravian malt is produced from barley grown in the same small
area near Olomouc.


Czech Malt Specifications
		Budvar			  	Well-Modified
Extract 		80.7%			 	82.8%
Color		3.6 EBC				3.6 EBC
Kolbach		37.9				44.1
Hartong		35				--
Friability		82%			---	85%
moisture 		4.0%				4.6%
Protein 		9.9%				9.7%

Please note that the Kolbach of the Budvar malt is at the upper limit of
its specifications.  Budvar specifies 35-38.

I've bit my tongue about this for several weeks now but word leaked out.
I've had numerous calls and emails especially since the GABF and I want to
thank everyone including several HDB readers for staying quiet.

Just a reminder, we also have the Budweiser Budvar yeast.

Thank you,

Lynne O'Connor
St. Patrick's of Texas
http://www.stpats.com

St. Patrick's of Texas		http://www.stpats.com
Brewers Supply		stpats at bga.com  (e-mail)
1828 Fleischer Drive		512-989-9727
Austin, Texas 78728		512-989-8982   facsimile

*********** We have Budweiser Budvar merchandise! **********************






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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 17:49:20 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: steam blows away HERMS??????

But Robert, RIMS is not a HERMS.  In a HERMS you can control the heat
source in a manner NEVER to exceed the denaturing temps of your
enzymes.  Certainly it is a design criteria, and I agree that steam is
a good way of heating but HERMS doesn't have to have the problem of
the electric RIMS systems.
- --
Rod Prather
Indianapolis, Indiana



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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 19:54:55 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Corn meal for CAP 

I went to pick up some corn meal to try in a Classic American Pilsner and
found that they had 2 kinds available. One was "regular corn meal", and the
other was "old fashioned corn meal". They were both in bulk bins, I assume
from the same company, although I don't know what company that is.

The grind seemed to be about the same for both. The only difference I could
see was that the "regular" was paler in color than the "old fashioned".
Does anyone know the difference between the two? I'm wondering if one is
degermed, and the other is not. If I recall correctly, degermed is better
because it would have a lower oil content. Any advice from the collective? TIA.


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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 20:34:02 -0500
From: William Macher <macher at telerama.lm.com>
Subject: More on Steam Injected RIMS

Hi all,

"Robert Zukosky" <mrzar at ic.net> proclaims that steam blows 
away HERMS in HOMEBREW Digest #3181.

Well, maybe...but then...

I built my steam injected RIMS last January. It is a 
single-tier, hard copper piped, natural-gas fired system, 
comprised of three 15-gallon kegs, two pumps and a 30 qt. 
Pressure cooker that does double duty as a pressure canner 
for starter wort.

This system was built from scratch as a steam-injected 
rims. It is manually controlled. I imagine it could be 
automated, but doing so could be expensive ans/or cumbersome
if proper concern for safety is taken. At least this is the 
way it looks at my end. I am happy with the manual system 
anyway and feel no need to automate.

The biggest surprise for me when I first used this system
was the noise. When the steam-injection system is 
operating the steam implodes very quickly when injected 
into wort that is well below the boiling point. Even 
168 F is relatively pretty cold. So although things quiet
down a bit if you get the liquid you are heating up near
boiling temperatures, this never happens when mashing.

Actually, that was the second biggest surprise. The BIGGEST
surprise was how much time I invested in building my RIMS!

My original design called for 1/4 copper tubing to be 
run into an injection chamber made of 3/4 inch copper 
tubing, but I got ahead of myself and made my original 
injection point out of half inch tubing. This turned 
out to be rather noisy when the steam was being injected. 
I mean almost too noisy! 

I recently modified my piping and increased the size of the 
injection chamber to 3/4 inch and it seems like things 
quieted down a bit. Perhaps Robert <mrzar at ic.net>
would share with us his experience on the noise front. My 
guess is that if he is injecting into the chamber that 
holds the electric heating element, the increased volume of 
liquid in this larger sized pipe [as compared to my 3/4 inch
chamber size] may dampen the little implosions better than
what I am using. 

Personally, I have considered a herms-like alternative to 
get rid of this noise factor, but I am leaving this for a 
future iteration of my system. What I might do is build a 
counter-flow heat exchanger to heat the wort that is re-
circulating in the RIMS [and coin the term HeXrims?] using 
near-boiling water as the heat source. I would pump the 
water from the HLT as the heat source if I did this. Since 
I already have two pumps this would not cost me much to do.

I am not certain that steam blows herms away though. Yes, 
both are self-limiting and neither will scorch the wort. 
To be as safe as possible, with steam one should have a way 
to dump the steam when closing the valve that feeds the injector. 
It is difficult to control temperature of the re-circulating wort 
just by varying the gas under the pressure cooker due to 
delays in the system. Robert may have less need to worry 
about this as his hybrid system probably will cut back on 
the electrical energy input when necessary.

As a case in point let me mention that I have blown the 
"rocker" off the top of the pressure cooker when I closed 
the valve feeding the steam injector without opening the 
valve that dumps excess steam into my HLT first. No big deal,
but you must be careful putting that little weight back on 
when steam is gushing out the top of the outlet it sits on.

A word of warning to those considering using steam: Do not 
be tempted to take a short cut and use the hole for the 
rubber plug in the lid of the pressure cooker as the easy 
way to attach your steam line. Leave all the standard 
safety devices intact in the steam source of your choosing.

Robert's idea of combining steam injection with a standard 
electrical-heated RIMS PID control is pretty interesting. I 
would note, however, for those who wish to make a simpler 
system, that steam injection alone, manually operated, is 
an alternative to the electrical complexity of the original 
RIMS design, and works quite well. As Robert says, steam 
injection is pretty simple.

One thing I am pretty certain of is that steam injection 
will always blow away heat exchanger based systems on the 
noise front! I say this while contemplating the purr my 
pumps, as hot water and wort are pushed silently around 
a HeXrims accompanied by the gentle sound of my natural 
gas burners..

And then there is ReVrims, a reversible system that pumps 
backwards most of the time at a high flow rate and then
conventionally for the last 15 minutes to set the 
filter bed...that is about two iterations away...

And then there's...:-)

Have fun!

Bill Macher    Pittsburgh PA    USA




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Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:17:20 -0600
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: reducing agents for beer

Personally, I've always found that 3/4 cup of glucose and a pinch of yeast
had enough reducing power to preserve beer for a year without
refrigeration.

Less sarcastically, once you've got aldehydes or worse it takes more "push"
from the reducing agent than is healthy for a human body - even a really
mild agent like hydroxylamide, which won't reduce aledhydes, is pretty
toxic.



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