---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Dilution (AJ)
  Cleaning Stainless (Tom Clark)
  More RIMS ideas . . . (Louis Bonham)
  Sal's Cock Ale (MVachow)
  Brillo and SS304 Kegs (Bob Scott)
  tap handles and etched glasses ("Czerpak, Pete")
  re: HopDevil/Tuppers (Jeff)
  re : Mills (Alan McKay)
  HopDevil ("David Kerr")
  German Pilsener advice (Greg Remake)
  Re: Corn meal for CAP (Jeff Renner)
  RE: More on Steam Injected RIMS (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Stuffs. (ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO)
  porn on the hbd ("Bayer, Mark A")
  First Wort Hopping and Hot Break removal (Eric Reimer)
  Brillo and Stainless ("Jack Schmidling")
  Re: growing yeast and the George report (phil sides jr)
  budvar malt / George / St. Pats (ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO)
  LaCrosse Brewrey (Paul Kerchefske)
  Braggott (RobertJ)
  Mills (Badger Roullett)
  RE: More RIMS ideas (William Macher)
  Brew pot for Xmas (Rick Gontarek)
  Legality of trading (Jack Straw)
  Oxidation of beer due to starters ("gdepiro")
  stainless and non-stainless scrubbies ("Sean Richens")
  homebrew event, Jack Schmidling, etc ("Karp's Homebrew Shop")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:06:05 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Dilution

Nathan Kanous suggests dilution as a means of iron remediation. Dilution
is fine sometimes (I use it to get a good water profile for Pils for
example) but sometimes it's not the best choice. As an example, one of
the members of my club (BURP) asked me to look at his water. It was
quite turbid coming out of the tap. Sure enough he had 1.2 mg/L Fe(III)
and no measureable Fe(II). To get the level of iron down to the
recommended  0.1 mg/L (less would be better as iron is pretty "tasty")
he'd have to dilute 12:1 thus lowering his Ca and Mg by the same
ratio.We might as well advise him to brew with distilled water and build
up a mineral profile by salt addition. Too bad because the water was
pretty nice otherwize (alkalinity 29, total hardness 26, RA 22, sulfate
0 - a candiate for even Boh Pils if the iron could be disposed of).

In this partucular case pulling a test sample of the water through a
0.45u filter removed the iron to the point where the treated sample read
0.01 mg/L (close to the EDL for my gear). Thus his water is fixed by
simple filtration with no chemicals or aeration. He's lucky and, of
course, not everyone will be so. Others will require more dramatic
treatment.

So yes, dilution has its uses but  science has its place in brewing too!

- --
A. J. deLange
Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.



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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:08:57 -0500
From: Tom Clark <rtclark at eurekanet.com>
Subject: Cleaning Stainless

Dear Forum:
Try using a product called "Soft Scrub" for your stainless.
It seems to work quite nicely for stainless steel and/or porcelain and
pyrex. I believe it may have been originally marketed by Corning.
There is also a product called "ZUD"  which will remove rust stains from
whatever.
Tom Clark


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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:38:54 -0600
From: Louis Bonham <lkbonham at hbd.org>
Subject: More RIMS ideas . . .

Hi folks:

Bill Macher muses about using a counterflow chiller setup as
the RIMS element . . . I've been working with a similar
design for an improvement to my RIMS (I have the original
BrewMagic prototype Conrad Keyes build years ago).

My idea also borrows a few ideas from Micah Milspaw's RIMS
system (Micah uses a quasi-HERMS system, with the coil in a
sealed container of oil, and the electric heating element is
used to heat the oil and keep it at a constant temp (about
175F if I recall correctly).)

My concept uses the Heart's Superchiller (wonderfully
efficient CF chiller) as the "heart" of the system, and a 2
gallon sealed reservior of oil as the heat-supplying fluid.
The existing RIMS pump is used to run the wort through the
exchanger, and a small hydraulic or similar pump handles the
hot oil.  Heat to the oil reservoir could be through an
electric heating element (for maintaining target temps of
the oil) and possibly also a gas flame (if needed).  I
envision that the oil would be kept at about 175F (fixed
thermostat, with safety cutouts if the temp exceeds 220F,
etc.).  Temp control would be handled by controlling the oil
pump (when heat is needed, the pump is on; when not, it's
off; ideally, PID control to for pinpoint control without
overshoots).

On paper, this system would allow for very quick boosts
without scorching.

Comments?

Louis K. Bonham


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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:17:30 -0600
From: MVachow at newman.k12.la.us
Subject: Sal's Cock Ale

Got a friend who makes a Cock Ale, name of Salvatore Monella, Sal for short.
Sometimes historical progress seems overrated, but in this case (and I guess
I'd lump haggas (sp?), the entire phenomenon of boiled pudding, head cheese,
et al. into the same category), I get warm fuzzy feelings about all of those
biogenetic engineers plugging away in labs so that I can have strawberries
in January.  But then, there's no accounting for taste.  One man's meat is
another man's poison, and in the case of Cock Ale, it might just be both.

Mike


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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 06:19:43 -0800
From: Bob Scott <rrscott at jps.net>
Subject: Brillo and SS304 Kegs

David Sweeney asked about using steel wool and Brillo pads on SS.  As a
data point, Navy galleys (kitchens) are prohibited from using metal
cleaning pads.  The metal pads eventually break down and provide metal
slivers that can get into food or be rinsed down drains that on ships
have valves further downstream that can get scored or clogged.   Home
use is at the individual's risk.  3M's Scotch Brite pads with the
appropriate cleaner work just as well (std. disclaimers) and don't wear
out the pots.

Bob Scott


>Won't rust, bits and pieces of the steel wool get embedded in the scratches
>and they will rust.  Is this true? If so, why can we use Brillo pads on our


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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:32:40 -0500
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: tap handles and etched glasses

Hi.

I have just put my new brewing fridge in the apartment and the taps are
being ordered soon.

Has anybody had any custom tap handles or etched glasses made up with their
brewery logo?

Just wondering if there are any sources that have been used and you're happy
with.

Thanks,

Pete Czerpak
albany, NY



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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:52:01 -0500 (EST)
From: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil (Jeff)
Subject: re: HopDevil/Tuppers


Hi All,

  David Boyd asked about cloning HopDevil/Tuppers IPA's.

  The following is an all-grain recipe that comes pretty close
to Tupper's.  It is a little more fruity/estery due to the yeast
and a little bit more hoppy (bitter, flavor, and aroma).

hops-in-your-face IPA #5

Grains:

10   lb  Crisp Maris Otter Pale Malt
2.75 lb  Weyermann Munich Dark (11L)
4    oz  Crisp Crystal Malt (60L)
8    oz  Crisp Wheat Malt
4    oz  DWC Aromatic Malt (26L)
6    oz  M&F Carapils Malt (8L)

total:  14 lb 2oz

Mashed all the grains together in 20 quarts of water at 150F for 65 minutes.
Raised temp to 168F for a 15 minute mashout rest.
Sparged with 18 quarts of 170F water.

Hops (all are whole flower hops):

0.25  oz  Columbus 15.7%AA  first wort hops
1     oz  Columbus 15.7%AA  60 minute boil
0.5   oz  Columbus 15.7%AA  40 minute boil
2     oz  EKG      4.5%AA   10 minute boil
2     oz  Cascades 6.0%AA   0 minute boil (steeped)
2     oz  Cascades 6.0%AA   dry hop
0.25  oz  Columbus 15.7%AA  dry hop

total: 8 oz  (approx 70 IBUs per Tinseth using 6.25 gal post-boil volume)

Yeast:

Wyeast #1968 (Special London Ale, supposedly the Fuller's ESB yeast)

I pitched the entire yeast cake from the primary of a previous batch that
was racked to the secondary on the day this IPA was brewed.

Wort temp at pitching: 62F

3 hour lag time.

Misc ingredients:

1   tsp gypsum (calcium sulfate) in the mash
1.5 tsp irish moss (rehydrated) added 15 minutes before the end of the boil

Specs:

brewed on 4/11/99
racked to secondary and added dry hops on 4/18/99
kegged on 5/10/99

primary ferment at 63 to 66F
secondary ferment at 58F

OG = 1.065
FG = 1.013

  I've entered this brew in 2 competitions this year (NNERHC in ME and the
Dixie Cup in TX) were it has consistantly scored right around 40 points.

  As you can see from the name, this is my 5th iteration on this recipe.
This, and previous batches, were strongly influenced by the American IPA
article that appeared in the Sep/Oct 1996 issue of BT.

  If you like big, hoppy IPA'a give this recipe a try and let me know what
you think of it.

                                               Hoppy brewing,

                                               Jeff

==========================================================================

Geoffrey A. McNally                  Phone:  (401) 832-1390
Mechanical Engineer                  Fax:    (401) 832-7250
Naval Undersea Warfare Center        email:
Systems Development Branch              mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil
Code 8321; Bldg. 1246/2              WWW:


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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:51:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Alan McKay <amckay at magma.ca>
Subject: re : Mills


Ron writes :

"Everything else being equal with malt mills, I noticed 
 one reason to go with the Maltmill verses the Valley 
 mill. Pasted on the Maltmill is an American flag, with 
 the text "Made in the USA" "

Funny, I thought that was a reason to buy the Valley Mill
over the Malt Mill.  The Valley Mill is made right here
in the Ottawa Valley ...

cheers,
 -Alan


- --
                 "Brewers make wort.  Yeast Makes Beer."
                       - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.bodensatz.com/
What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html


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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:59:54 -0500
From: "David Kerr" <dkerr at semc.org>
Subject: HopDevil

Great to hear from Jim Busch, no?

Here's Dave Brockington's 2 cents on HopDevil, and some good recipe
formulation tips:

http://hbd.org/brewery/taproom/victory-ipa96.html

And, of course, his seminal (no, that's not an ingredient!) recipe, "Sister
Star of the Sun":

http://www.realbeer.com/hops/sister.html

Hopheads, rejoice!

Dave Kerr in Needham, MA, beginning a campaign to bring Marty Schottenheimer
out of retirement


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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:54:57 -0600
From: Greg Remake <gremake at gsbalum.uchicago.edu>
Subject: German Pilsener advice

Hello all,

There is a distinctive flavor in certain German pilseners that I'd like to
achieve in my next recipe.  I wish I was able to adequately describe the
taste, which is not found in all German pilseners.  It's a slightly spicey
flavor, more prominent as an after-taste, although evident in the aroma.
It is obviously there in commercial examples like Henninger and Herforder,
but is missing in more popular brands like Haacker Pschor and Becks.  Sorry
for the lame description, but I'm hoping someone in The Collective will
know what I'm talking about.

I've never found this elusive flavor using a variety of noble hops, so I'm
pretty sure it's not the hops.  Perhaps it's the specific malts used, in
which case I'd need to get a hold of the same variety, which may or may not
be easy.  I'm hoping it's the yeast.  Pilsener Urquell is a favorite of
mine, but that taste and style is not what I'm after, so I don't think the
Czech/Bohemian yeasts will get me there.  I'm familiar with Wyeast 2206
Bavarian, and that doesn't provide the flavor I'm seeking.  I'm wondering
if White Labs WLP830 German Lager might work, or perhaps another Wyeast
offering.  Any thoughts or suggestions?  I'll also need some tips on
mashing regimens.

All help will be much appreciated.

Cheers!



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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:16:12 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Corn meal for CAP 

>Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us> wrote:
>
>I went to pick up some corn meal to try in a Classic American Pilsner and
>found that they had 2 kinds available. One was "regular corn meal", and the
>other was "old fashioned corn meal".<snip>
>
>The grind seemed to be about the same for both. The only difference I could
>see was that the "regular" was paler in color than the "old fashioned".
>Does anyone know the difference between the two? I'm wondering if one is
>degermed, and the other is not. If I recall correctly, degermed is better
>because it would have a lower oil content.

Degermed is potentially better for the reason you mention, although George
DePiro and Jack Schmidling both have reported no problem with whole corn
meal.  I'd certainly smell it for rancidity.  Around here we have a bulk
"old fashioned" corn meal that is coarser than the grocery store stuff.
Coarser is better.  Have you asked the merchant for information such as oil
content?  Maybe if you get the producer's name you can find out from them.

Have fun brewing this great style.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:09:36 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: More on Steam Injected RIMS

From: William Macher <macher at telerama.lm.com>

>....What I might do is build a 
>counter-flow heat exchanger to heat the wort that is re-
>circulating in the RIMS [and coin the term HeXrims?] using 
>near-boiling water as the heat source. I would pump the 
>water from the HLT as the heat source if I did this....

My present HERMS system uses the HLT as the heat source with a copper coil
thrown in for the circulating wort.  It works well, with room for a few
improvements, one being the ability to quickly change the HLT temperature.
This is not so easy because of the large volume needed for sparging.  I am
considering building a separate small volume chamber, say one gallon or so,
into which the HERMS coil will reside.  My 4500 watt electric heating
element will be used to heat this water, which should respond rather briskly
to the power applied.  I will have a simple vent hole to allow the steam to
escape, if any steam is generated.

The whole project would be fairly easy to construct, another $10.00 heating
element, a simple container, another copper coil, and a few electrical
connections to the heating element.  I will not be pumping the heated water,
I trust that the agitation from the heating element and the low volume (one
gallon or so) will supply all the needed thermal exchange.

>It is difficult to control temperature of the re-circulating wort 
>just by varying the gas under the pressure cooker due to 
>delays in the system. Robert may have less need to worry 
>about this as his hybrid system probably will cut back on 
>the electrical energy input when necessary.

So the small volume of water should cool off fairly rapidly when power is
reduced, allowing better control of temperature, and of course allowing
rapid boosting - this is what I am going for.

>Robert's idea of combining steam injection with a standard 
>electrical-heated RIMS PID control is pretty interesting. I 
>would note, however, for those who wish to make a simpler 
>system, that steam injection alone, manually operated, is 
>an alternative to the electrical complexity of the original 
>RIMS design, and works quite well. As Robert says, steam 
>injection is pretty simple.

Would not the penultimate system be one with a mash stirrer, heating coil in
the mash, with heated liquor circulating inside it?

>And then there is ReVrims, a reversible system that pumps 
>backwards most of the time at a high flow rate and then
>conventionally for the last 15 minutes to set the 
>filter bed...that is about two iterations away...

>And then there's...:-)

>Have fun!

Been having fun, having a riot!!

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu


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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:27:13 -0800 (PST)
From: ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: Stuffs. 

Hey all, 

Although I mostly lurk these days and post rather infrequently I do
enjoy reading the HBD. 

It is that time of year again to get down on our hands an knees and
kiss Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen for doing such a fine job with this
service. 

It has been hmmmmm 3 years... or is it 4 years that some nameless
wanker talked Pat into taking on this digest and saving it from its
certain death at the hands of the AHA. 

Pat was promised help by many and received it from few. Yet he and
Karl continue to bust their bottoms to get this thing to us everyday.
Probably much to the angered looks from their spouses. 

Pat has spent more time than he is willing to tell us working on
servers along with Karl. Both have spent cash out of pocket to make
the HBD work also. 

If you have not donated to the HBD fund I urge you to take some some
time and write a check. 


HBD Server Fund
PO Box 871309
Canton Township, MI 48187-6309

All money is accounted for right on the digest page. 

Thank you Pat and Karl for continuing to allow all of us to learn
this fantastic craft. 

C'ya

 -Scott

=====
ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT
Scott Abene <skotrat at mediaone.net>
http://www.skotrat.com (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page)

"The More I know about beer politics, The more I wish I made 120k"
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.


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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 10:02:05 -0800
From: "Bayer, Mark A" <Mark.Bayer at JSF.Boeing.com>
Subject: porn on the hbd

collective homebrew conscience_

peter e wrote:

>Take ten gallons new ale and a large cock <snip>


sounds like the opening scene from a screenplay of questionable morality.

(can "loretta" resist this one?)

brew hard,

dr. hfurrhhurrhur
stl mo



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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:47:01 -0500
From: Eric Reimer <eric at etymonic.com>
Subject: First Wort Hopping and Hot Break removal

Hi all,

I have not seen a good solution to the following.  Perhaps someone could 
inform me:

When FWH'ing, I leave the FWH'ed hops in the boil for the entire time.  How 
does one remove the hot break without removing the hops?  The hops I use is 
generally whole flowers.  The hot break always gets mixed in with the hops, 
making it very difficult to remove one without removing both.

Ideas?

Eric
Barking Dogs Brewing Co.
London, Ontario


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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:20:54 -0600
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Brillo and Stainless


From: David Sweeney <David at stulife2.tamu.edu>


>I seem to remember reading somewhere that you should not use an ordinary
steel wool pad to clean your 304SS brewing kegs....

I can vouch for that.  My son-in-law went to a great deal of time and effort to
make me a mailbox out of a very hard to find, 1/4 bbl stainless keg.  It is a
masterwork and the dazzle in the sunlight could be seen miles away.

Until the first time it rained, that is.  It started rusting like crazy and when
we went over the possibilities and discussed this with others, it seems that
wire brushing and steel wool were the culprits.

I have since cleaned it up and given it a coat of spar varnish but I sold my
boat because I got tired of these annual rituals.

js

PHOTO OF THE WEEK  http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm
HOME: Beer, Cheese, Astronomy, Videos  http://user.mc.net/arf


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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:03:53 -0500
From: phil sides jr <psides at carl.net>
Subject: Re: growing yeast and the George report

George de Piro writes:

>you are really into the hobby, you can go as far as providing constant
>aeration with a stir bar or aquarium stone or some such, but it is not

I was under the impression that aerating after a good fermentation
started was exactly the type of aeration we are try like hell to avoid.
I know the starters we are talking about are a comparatively small
amount of wort, but why is it ok here and not in your main batch?

Phil Sides, Jr.
Concord, NH
- --
Macht nicht o'zapft ist, Prost!



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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 13:19:26 -0800 (PST)
From: ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject:  budvar malt / George / St. Pats 

Hey all, 

Does anyone know if this malt will be carried by any other HomeBrew
supply place? Maybe somewhere in the Chicago area? Some place with a
good customer service history? 

I truely enjoyed the name dropping by Lynne... Very nice I hope it
gets her little HBD commercial some sales. I know Mr. Fix would want
it that way. Hey does George get a cut or special prices because you
used his name?

Can I name drop here too? I once helped a very drunk Bucky Dent and
Sparky Anderson into a cab in NY. Bucky was wearing blue Sparky was
wearing Red. 

 C'ya! 

 -Scott 

=====
ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT
Scott Abene <skotrat at mediaone.net>
http://www.skotrat.com (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page)

"The More I know about beer politics, The more I wish I made 120k"
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.


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Date: 30 Nov 99 14:23:09 PST
From: Paul Kerchefske <fritz6 at netscape.net>
Subject: LaCrosse Brewrey

I had heard that the former Heileman/Stroh brewery in LaCrosse had been 
bought
by a New York investment group and that it was up and running again, but 
I
never heard anything about what it was they were making. Does anyone out 
there
know?   PAK 


____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at 

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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:47:42 -0500
From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com>
Subject: Braggott

Members of our local club have been discussing braggots, but none of us
have brewed, or even tasted one, but the idea of brewing a batch has it's
appeal. Could someone direct me to a good recipe, perhaps with a definition
of characteristics to look for?

If anyone has judges comments from a competition that go with the recipe,
that would be very helpfull.

Thanks
Bob


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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 14:25:18 -0800
From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
Subject: Mills

Someone back a few issues asked about Adjustable mills.

I have been using a Marga Mill for a number of batches...

And it works GREAT.  it was pretty cheap.  i paid about $50 for mine.  I
compiled a list of some information I have gathered about it from some
really great people on this list.  I am putting that information out on my
website at http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/badgbeer.html  Simply click the
link for the Marga Mill page...



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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 19:33:33 -0500
From: William Macher <macher at telerama.lm.com>
Subject: RE: More RIMS ideas

Hi All,

Louis Bonham lkbonham at hbd.org shares some thoughts on using a 
heat exchanger to impart heat into wort circulating in a RIMS:

>My idea also borrows a few ideas from Micah Milspaw's RIMS
>system (Micah uses a quasi-HERMS system, with the coil in a
>sealed container of oil, and the electric heating elementis
>used to heat the oil and keep it at a constant temp (about
>175F if I recall correctly).)

>My concept uses the Heart's Superchiller (wonderfully
>efficient CF chiller) as the "heart" of the system, and a 2
>gallon sealed reservior of oil as the heat-supplying fluid.

[snip]

>On paper, this system would allow for very quick boosts
>without scorching.

My concern would be getting enough heat into the wort when using 
a chiller designed for cooling while limiting the hot-side liquid 
temperature to 175 F. When cooling there is a pretty big 
temperature differential, worst case something like 212-90 = 122 
degrees F., between the two liquids involved.

Using a chiller that is designed to work with this kind of delta 
T, as a heater, in an oil bath that is at 175 F, where the delta 
T is probably 75 degrees max [and would approach 7 degrees at 
mash out] flags major concerns in my mind.

My experience tells me that it would take longer and longer to 
get desired temperature boosts as wort temperature approached the 
hot-side liquid temperature of the heat exchanger. This is 
because in a RIMS we are limited to a maximum practical 
recirculation rate.

The way I see it is the amount of heat that is pushed from the 
hot-side liquid into the liquid being heated is a function of the 
thermal resistance of the path between the two liquids and the 
temperature difference. In the case of a chiller, the thermal 
resistance is fixed by the design. The chiller is designed for a 
relatively large delta T between the two liquids that pass 
through it so the surface area can be relatively small.

The variables of concern become the flow rate of the wort and the 
temperature difference between the wort and the oil, since the 
chiller proposed is one already manufactured and changing the 
surface area is not an option.

At a given operating condition of the RIMS you will have a set 
temperature difference between the two liquids and a given flow 
rate. Say for example, the oil bath is at 175 F. and the Wort is 
at 120 F. 

As the wort is heated BTUs of heat will move from the oil bath 
through the copper wall of the heat exchanger into the wort. This 
transfer of BTUs will result in a temperature rise in the wort as 
it passes through the heat exchanger. Let's say this steady-state 
condition occurs at a flow rate of 2 gpm and that the wort is 
raised 10 degrees F. These may be attainable values across a heat 
exchanger designed for cooling. I doubt if you would get more and 
perhaps you would get less. If this were the case, temperature 
boost of 2 degree F. per minute for the mash would be achievable.

I base this on the assumption that for a 10-gallon system there 
would be about 5 to 7 gallons of liquid being re-circulated, 
some heat losses in the system and also heat required to heat the 
grain bed. It would take 3 to 4 minutes to run all the liquid 
through the heat exchanger once. So the temp boost would be 
between 2 and 2.5 deg. F. per minute. [10 degree rise taken over 
4 minutes.] Since the grains hold some water, perhaps only five 
gallons would actually be recirculated, but the other water held 
by the grain still needs heated so the effect is about the same I 
think. If you cannot get a high recirculation rate, things slow down
quite a bit.


But what happens when the wort temperature is 145 F.? Flow rate 
remains maxed out at 2 gpm to prevent filter bed compaction. The 
heat exchanger is a fixed element that offers essentially fixed 
thermal constraints. Delt T is now half what it was at 120 F. 
Only half the original BTUs will flow into the wort. We now can 
only get 1.25 deg. F. per minute rise in wort temperature.

Splitting the difference again, at 157 F. we get a max temp rise 
of about 0.6 deg F per min. And so on..

This is a simplified look at the process and the intention is not 
to be terribly accurate in the calculation, but rather to convey 
a point.

The point I am making is that it will take a very long time to 
get to mash out temperature of 168 F. if you keep the oil bath at 
175 F.

An alternative might perhaps be to heat the oil to a higher 
temperature and to maintain a constant delta T between the oil 
and wort temperatures. What matters is not what the temperature 
of the heating liquid is, but rather what the temperature of the 
heated wort is as it exits the heat exchanger.

Having the ability to drain the hot side liquid out of the heat 
exchanger could also be advantageous. Turn off the hot-side pump, 
let the hot side liquid drain back to the source, and keep the 
wort recirculating at the temperature it is at. Of course, this 
would only work if the heat exchanger were physically located 
above the source of the hot side liquid.

Or perhaps just turning off the hot-side pump and letting the 
wort pull whatever excess BTUs happen to be in the oil would be 
satisfactory. The volume of oil in the heat exchanger would not 
be that great.

In the case of steam injection it is possible to cut the heat 
input almost immediately. I simply open a dump valve, which dumps 
the steam into my HLT, and close the valve that is in the line 
feeding the steam injection chamber.

Bottom line is, I think, to be wary of using a counter flow 
chiller designed for cooling in a heating application where the 
delta T can be very small. This is especially true if one plans 
to keep the temperature of the hot-side liquid close to mash-out 
temperature.

Isn't the gadget side of homebrewing fun!

Bill

Bill Macher   Pittsburgh, PA    USA






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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 20:21:28 -0500
From: Rick Gontarek <RGontare at bellatlantic.net>
Subject: Brew pot for Xmas

Hello all,

I am asking Santa to bring me a brand new 10 gallon brewpot for
Christmas, but I want  him to find the best price and make the purchase
from a reputable place. I have compared prices from a number of
different vendors for large brewpots. Most are the Polar Ware-type 10
gallon pots with a ball valve, and will run between $170-$200. I checked
out the web page of Brewers Resource and found that they have 1.2 mm
thick, 18-8 stainless steel brewpots that hold 13.25 gallons for an
incredible low price of $166.90. They don't charge for shipping, so this
seems like a great deal. I have never dealt with them before, so I'd
like to know if anyone has ever had any bad experiences with them. If
anyone has this brewpot, I'd love to hear if you'd stay with what you
have or would you get the Polarware pot instead. Many thanks!

Rick Gontarek
Owner/Brewmaster of the Major Groove Picobrewery
Trappe, PA
Now serving on draft: Ordinary Bitter & Porter


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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 19:17:25 -0800
From: Jack Straw <jstraw79 at pacbell.net>
Subject: Legality of trading

I have a question concerning the legality of trading homebrew via snail
mail.  You know, sometimes you can get chatty with other brewers on
another coast, and I have been tempted to send them some of the latest
batch, however, I dont know if that is legal.  Also, what if that same
conversation turns into a request for some beer that is not available on
that coast (ie: east coasters asking for some SN Celebration).  Does
anyone know anything about this, or is it just something better kept
underwraps?  Thanks for your time gentlemen.

Cheers,
Peter

- --
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."
 -Ben Franklin

Galactic mailing list album pics  at 
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Gala/6928/top5.html



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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:40:45 -0500
From: "gdepiro" <gdepiro at mindspring.com>
Subject: Oxidation of beer due to starters

Hi all,

Alan Meeker raises the question of the danger of beer oxidation when adding
oxygenated wort to a fermented starter that is 10% of the total volume of
the batch.  This used to concern me, too.  In my experience I have found
that the beer made in such a way does not taste oxidized (even though the
starter will often have noticeable diacetyl).  A lot of this experience has
come to me here at the brewpub, where the beers seldom last more than 3
weeks (because they are sold) and I have complete control over the beer
storage environment.  I don't know if the practice of adding oxygenated wort
to a fermented starter would have an deleterious effect on the shelf life of
the beer.  My guess would be that it would.

In further defense of this practice, it has been shown in journals and by
some HBDers (AJ deLange, I think) that oxygen is very quickly consumed by
healthy yeast.  Given that the yeast in a recently fermented starter is
about as vibrant as they get, they should consume the O2 in short order.  I
pitch my ale worts at a cool 58-60F (~15C), which might also help in
reducing the oxidation of the starter.

Since many homebrewers have good control over the environment that their
beer is stored in (cold and dark), I would wager that no oxidation problems
would be noticed when brewing with yeast propagated in the manner I
described earlier.  As a homebrewer (and pro) I am more concerned with O2
pick up in the finished beer.  Homebrew transfers present a plethora of
opportunities to unwittingly oxidize your beer (racking into carboys being a
big one).  It is probably more worth while to put  effort into keeping O2
out of the finished beer than to worry about the starter becoming oxidized.

Letting the yeast settle out, as Alan suggests (and I used to do at home)
has several disadvantages:
1.  It takes a long time, during which yeast viability may decrease.
2.  You are throwing away the least flocculent yeast when you decant off the
fermented starter.  If you do this at each step up you may end up with a
yeast culture that floccs too early (I can't remember the reference for
this; I think it's mentioned in an old HBD or my BT article on yeast).
3.  You are throwing away yeast by decanting off the liquid from the starter
(this seems cruel to the yeast and is wasteful).

Alan's suggestion of using a centrifuge to separate the yeast from the beer
is a good one, if you have a centrifuge!

One thing that you should be aware of:  the starter should not be too
different in hop character from the main batch.  If the hop rate is
substantially different, be sure to compensate for that fact when you brew
the main batch (adjusting the hops up or down accordingly).

Have fun!

George de Piro
C.H.Evans Brewing Company at the Albany Pump Station
(518) 447-9000

Malted Barley Appreciation Society Homebrew Club
http://hbd.org/mbas


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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 21:57:32 -0600
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: stainless and non-stainless scrubbies

David Sweeny has heard correctly - stainless steel can be fairly seriously
compromised by contamination with regular steel from Brillo pads, or by
sharing grinding wheels or wire wheels with non-stainless steel items.

But really, unless you're grinding & polishing welds, you just don't really
want to use anything more abrasive than a WHITE Scotchbrite pad (green is
harsher) or standard nylon pot scrubber.  They all leave scratches which
just makes cleaning less effective the next time.

If it's badly soiled, try alternating alkali and acid soaks, or try laundry
detergent, or electric dishwasher detergent.  They all have different modes
of action - use any of them at 60*C (145*F or so) for maximum effect.



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Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:56:01 -0500
From: "Karp's Homebrew Shop" <alant at homebrewshop.com>
Subject: homebrew event, Jack Schmidling, etc

Just had to post a summary of an interesting brewery/homebrewing event. I 
think that brewing clubs around the country might want to try a similar event.
  The Black Forest Brew House, in concert with the Brewers East End Revival 
(B.E.E.R.), held a brewfest on the brewpub's grounds. The members of 
B.E.E.R. were invited to bring their homebrewing equipment, propane cookers 
and all, to the brewpub.
The homebrewers setup on the patio, and made a batch of beer using their 
own equipment, right at the brewery. The pro brewer, Michael Hoeck, was 
present most of the day to help with grinding grain and dispensing advice.
The brewpub served up a special complimentary brunch, and served pints of 
lagers for a special price. For brunch time entertainment, the club showed 
a video of the Emeril show featuring (the outstanding) brewer Garrett 
Oliver. It was fun to see how little Emeril knows about beer.
Lots of great smelling wort was made, some all grain and some extract. It 
especially fun to mash in with heated, filtered water- directly from the 
brewer's hose, and hit protein rest temperature right on the head!
As a veteran of many homebrewing events and contests, I must say that this 
was as much fun as any brewing event I've ever attended. I highly recommend 
other brew clubs seek out friendly brewpubs to hold similar events.

On another subject entirely, let's talk about wine kits and Jack 
Schmidling's idea that wine kits are pretty bad overall. (It seems the only 
way to convince Jack that the newer juice kits make pretty good wine is to 
send a bottle of good stuff to him.) The discussion left out an important 
new development in the home wine market. You can now get non-concentrated 
wine juice to make wine from. Since Jack is such a giving guy himself, I 
plan on sending him a bottle of the Merlot I just bottled. Maybe he'll like 
it and change his mind. And maybe not. Either way, it's a brilliant plan on 
Jack's part to get winemakers from all over to send him a bottle of good 
wine. I applaud him and wish I had thought of that challenge first!

Alan Talman
(usual disclaimer; I know Jack from business, but we have never met. I do 
not stand to profit from all the free wine he is going to get, yadda, yadda.)




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