---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Dried Sweet corn / malt water content / malting page / turning ("Luke Van Santen")
  Home Dried Corn (Nathan Kanous)
  Re: what to do with kegs? (Jeff Renner)
  Sweet Corn ("Paul Niebergall")
  hop aroma ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Re: Grain Mills ("Milito, Steve")
  RE: syringe lubricant (Demonick)
  Sister Star (Nathan Kanous)
  Still long lag time with Nottingham? ("Paul Shick, John Carroll University")
  steam injection (Biergiek)
  Taking kegs on the plane (Mike Bardallis)
  re: Oxidized yeast starters (John_E_Schnupp)
  More steam stuff (macher)
  Finned copper tubing for heat exchange ("Scholz, Richard")
  Re: More steam stuff (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Budvar Malt ("St. Patrick's")
  Czech Beers in Colorado ("St. Patrick's")
  FWH Utilization (Jim Layton)
  AHA Poop Peddling... (Midwest Brewer)
  Re: Class ("Jack Schmidling")
  Stainless Rollers ("Jack Schmidling")
  HERMS RIMS and Rice Hulls (WayneM38)
  RIMS Comments:Grainbed flow and increased ramp times ("Rod Prather")
  RIMS Comments:Grainbed flow and increased ramp times ("Rod Prather")
  The Marga Mill ("J. Kish")
  Sweet Corn ("J. Kish")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 06:56:21 -0600
From: "Luke Van Santen" <Luke.VanSanten at dot.state.mn.us>
Subject: Dried Sweet corn / malt water content / malting page / turning

All -

In 3184, Jack S talks about dried sweet corn. Jack, what is the best 
method to dry it, in you r experience? It seems that the ideal method 
would be to let it stay on the stalk.

In 3180, Dave Burley comments on drying malt to determine the water 
content. I agree with his recommendations about temperature and time, for 
the following reasons. When I was conducting soil physical property 
testing for a living, the applicable ASTM method required heating at 105C 
for either 24 hours or until the weight of the dried material decreased by 
less than 1 percent between weighings. The 105C was to prevent burning off 
the organic material (roots. loam, humus, etc).

I do wonder about Dave's bag method though. Does the bag pick up any 
water? Can you account for this? Or is any amount the bag would pick up so 
small as to not worry about it?

In 3179, cmoore at gi.alaska.edu says he has plans for putting malting info 
on the web. COOL! I can't wait to see it.

In 3178, Stuart Anderson says this hobby is one of few where the amateur 
has a shot at turning pro. Stuart, consider it LONG and HARD! Amateurs 
could do it relatively easy 10 years ago, but not any more. And it really 
sucks when you realize it isn't going to work anymore.

One last thing - Dave Burley's rant about carcinogens and how they become 
classified as such was pretty good. It seems that a lot of these tests (to 
determine carcinogenic tendencies, etc) have very specific conditions that 
might or might not be regularly encountered in the life of the average 
person. That being said, there will always be people who can use themselves
 as evidence to disprove the danger of various compounds. "We used to sit 
on those drums of radioactively contaminated cutting oil and eat lunch! 
Why are you suiting up to poking in the dirt (where those drums leaked)?" 
Actually heard it. Honest.

Luke Van Santen
St. Louis Park, MN

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Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 07:33:26 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Home Dried Corn

Jack,
How might you accomplish "home drying" of your sweet corn?  Dry it on the 
cob?  Just let it sit there and dry?  How does this effect the sugar 
content?  One thing my father-in-law used to do (and still does on 
occasion) is show up serendiptously at the table with "sweet corn" that is 
actually quite good.  Maybe not quite as good as some Illini SuperSweet, or 
your Golden Bantam X, but comparable with most sweet corn you buy at 
farmer's markets.  This fancy sweet corn he "buys" is field corn he picks 
himself.  There is a very short period of time when the sugar content is 
high and the stuff is pretty good.  After that, I believe the sugars are 
polymerized into the starches we normally associate with "feed corn".  I 
know that if you don't eat sweet corn soon after it is picked, it loses 
some of its flavor, probably in a similar manner.  How do you prevent 
this...or don't you?  You say that it makes better corn meal, I'm 
interested to find out how and throw some into a CAP.


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Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 09:03:35 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: what to do with kegs?

"Devon Williams" <dawg_01 at hotmail.com>, who is new to HBD, has

>a keg shipping question.

Welcome to HBD, Devon.  I second your question as I have the same problem.
I was asked to brew 5 or 10 gallons of CAP for MCAB II in St Louis in
March.  We half dozen or so attending AABG members were going to carpool,
but Southwest Airlines' $69 round trip from Detroit was too good to pass
up.  I was planning to use a Sankey, which would be even harder to pack on
a plane or to open to prove it contains only beer.  After all, Sankeys are
(were?) a favored bomb container for the IRA!

So I hope people with suggestions will post them rather than send private
email.

BTW, where in Michigan is the wedding?  If you do get the beer here, can we
crash?  The party, not the plane.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



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Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 08:30:05 -0600
From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject: Sweet Corn

Jack S. wrote concerning the milling of sweet corn:

>The only problem is milling it.  I have always stated that the only thing 
you
>can't do in a fixed MM is whole corn but that is what the Corona was 
designed
>for.  Just turn your "I Love my MM" Tshirt inside out when using it.

I grow sweet corn also and though I have never tried it, I am wondering 
why the corn cant be removed from the cob and added directly to the mash.  
Without drying or milling.  Maybe run it through a blender to puree it a 
little.  Of course this would limit your sweet corn brewing to harvest 
time.  I guess you could always can it and hope the botulism doesnt get 
you if you wanted to brew sweet corn at a later date.

Paul Niebergall
Kansas City Area

(Quote of the week: "Those of you who have only been reading the digest a 
short time
should be told that I was once a very frequent poster here, before 
becoming a professional brewer."  Good to see that becoming a professional 
hasn't humbled your opinion of yourself, George)


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Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 09:38:11 -0500 
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: hop aroma




Questions on The Ancient Art of Hopping

If you don't have a hop back, what is the best mode of getting hop aroma
into your brews?

Is it using a hop tea?  Is the aroma generated from a hop tea similar to a
hop back and less harse than dry hopping?  Also, how much water and how much
hops should be used in a tea?  Also, what temperature should the water be at
and how long should the hold time be(contact time in a hop back is someting
like 2 minutes or so)? - I would assume a temp of a bit cooler than boiling
to extract the most hop oils?

Has there been any studies on the extraction of hops oils in various temp
water? Will it differ for varying hops varieties? 

Any help would be appreciated.   Also, if one is adding aroma hops at the
I have always done 2 to 3 minutes based on the idea of needing boiling water
to solubilize the oils? BUt perhaps right at the end is better for
aroma.......

Thanks,

Pete


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Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 10:21:16 -0500 
From: "Milito, Steve" <milito at radonc.musc.edu>
Subject: Re: Grain Mills


I have a "Automatic Mill" that I purchased from Pat's.  It works very well,
and I am happy with it. I typically mill an entire 50 lb bag of malt for a
brew session in just 15 minutes. The mill is best (most efficient, no stuck
sparges) if used on the finest setting. It occasionally has a hard time
staring if the hopper is full. I believe this is common with all the mills
that have a passive roller. This is not a problem, you just reverse the
drill direction for and instant, which frees the obstruction, then go on as
normal. The best way to use the mill is to start the rollers (ie drill) with
the hopper empty, then continually adding grain to the hopper until you're
done. This requires two people, but one could always mount and motorize the
mill. 

The reason I choose the automatic was that I wanted the ability to change
the spacing, I wanted the spacing to be even across the mill, and I did not
want to deal with shipping across international borders.



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Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 07:56:11 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: RE: syringe lubricant

From: "Dan Kiplinger" <knurdami at iname.com>
> I noticed that they were lubricated with something when they were
> brand new (and sterile). Does anyone know what that lubricant
> might be?  If it is so unreactive that it can be used against any
> known medicine that would be used in these syringes, I NEED some!

I've seen lots of disposable plastic medical syringes of all different
sizes and I've never seen one with any sort of lubrication.  Perhaps I
just missed it, but I'd be mightily surprised if they were lubricated.

If you fill a medical syringe with an oil or grease, over time the
soft rubber on the plunger will absorb the oil and soften and swell,
eventually becoming unusable.  You can extend the usable time period
by introducing air into the syringe and storing the syringe in such a
way as to keep the plunger out of the oil.

In any case, if you are looking for keg grease, something suitable to
use to grease the various rubber seals, try a silicone based clear
grease.  Vacuum pump or stopcock grease works quite well.  You should
be able to find it at one of the mega-hardware stores or even a
restaurant supply store.

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax orders
demonick at zgi dot com

FREE SAMPLES!  Enough for three 5 gallon batches.  Fax, phone, or
email, name, shipping address (no P.O.B.) and phone number (UPS likes 
it).
 


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Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 10:44:15 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Sister Star

Hi Everybody,
Getting ready to set out on an IPA.  Dave Brockington gives himself rave 
reviews on his Sister Star IPA recipe.  I look at the use of 3 oz of 
Chinook Hops and my IBU calculator goes haywire.  Has anybody actually 
brewed a 5 gallon batch with that huge quantity of bittering hops?  Was it 
drinkable?  I see recent postings for Hop Devil and Hop Pocket that use a 
much smaller quantity of bittering hops and I'm curious.  If you've brewed 
Sister Star with that quantity of hops, I'd like to hear about it (good or 
bad).  Thanks.


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Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 11:51:22 -0500 (EST)
From: "Paul Shick, John Carroll University" <SHICK at JCVAXA.jcu.edu>
Subject: Still long lag time with Nottingham?



Hello all,

	Well, I guess I'm trying to revive another dormant thread.
We had a lot of posts in the last year or so about extended lag
times for Lallemand Nottingham dry yeast, although the traffic seems
to have died out.  Maybe the problem has ceased for most.  I brewed
what I hope will be a pretty serious American Ale this weekend, and
had the same difficulty with the Nottingham yeast taking forever to
take off.  I was pretty scrupulous about handling the yeast, too,
so I'm perplexed about what's going on.

	Let me outline my procedures, just to avoid a slew of responses
suggesting things I actually did.  I planned on running off about 10.5
gallons of wort at about 1.060 into two carboys,  6.3 and 5 gallons,
respectively.  I had three 5 gram packets of Nottingham, 9 months before
the expiration date, kept refrigerated at home and at the homebrew shop
(which gets them directly from L.D. Carlson in Kent, by car, so no UPS
horror stories are likely.)  I would have preferred 4 packets, since
15 grams in 10+ gallons is underpitching slightly, but this shouldn't
matter too much.  I decided to rehydrate the yeast in the carboys, so I
sprinkled about 6g into the 5 gallon carboy, about 9g into the 6.3 gallon.
To rehydrate the yeast, I took about 12 ounces of tap water at 95-100F
and added it directly to the carboys, swishing it around to moisten all
the yeast.  This sat for about 15 minutes to rehydrate, while I cooled 
the wort with an immersion chiller.  At 15 minutes, I added a cup or two
of 85F wort to each carboy, to attemper the yeast.  After 10-15 more minutes,
the wort was down to 75F, and the runoff into the carboys was begun.  I
generally put the first 2-3 gallons into the large carboy, then 4.5-5 gallons
into the smaller, then the rest into the large carboy, trying to avoid
differences in temperature between the fermentors from thermal gradients
in the kettle.  After collecting 10.5 gallons, I aerated using pure O2
and a SS airstone, for about 20 seconds in each carboy.  The carboys were
placed in a 60F basement, raised off the floor and covered with plastic
garbage bags, to hold in some of the warmth until fermentation took off.

	To my surprise and annoyance, I had no airlock activity at all
for 24 hours.  The larger carboy finally had a thin layer of krausen at
30 hours, but the smaller took almost 48 hours to get any real krausen 
going.  Admittedly, I underpitched slightly, and the 60F ambient temperature
is on the low end for this yeast, but neither factor should cause this
sort of lag time.  

	Past posts about this problem have brought in suggestions along 
these lines:
	1.  Be more careful about rehydration and attemperation of
		the yeast.  Okay, did that here.  My 95-100F tap water
		was a bit colder than the 104F recommended, but this
		should be a pretty negligible factor.
	2.  Avoid aerating the wort, since dried yeast have a large
		enough cell count and high enough glycogen stores, so
		that you don't have to worry about deficiencies 4 or
		5 generations down the road.  (I agree with this somewhat.)
		The poster went further, saying that O2 in the wort
		would retard fermentation, by keeping the yeast in a
		reproductive phase.  (This part I can't quite agree
		with, although my results seem consistent with the idea.)

	So, what's going on?  At this point, I welcome any ideas, wild
speculations, or even pagan rituals that might help.  Jethro/Rob, any
ideas from the Lallemand folks?  As always, thanks in advance for any
help.

	I'm hopeful that this ale will still turn out to be quite nice.
It was brewed in celebration of the two month window where we have the last
all odd digit day (11/19/1999) for 1111+ years and the first all even
digit day (02/02/2000) since 08/28/0888.  What better excuse for a
seriously hoppy American ale, using a ton of the 1999 hop harvest?
By the way, the 1999 Columbus hops seem really nice:  much cleaner in
aroma than past years.  I'm getting thirsty already.  Thank goodness
that Sierra Nevada is shipping its Celebration Ale as far East as
Clevelnad this year.

   			Paul Shick 
 			Basement brewing in Cleveland Hts OH

 


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Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 12:26:35 EST
From: Biergiek at aol.com
Subject: steam injection

Adding steam injection to your RIMS chamber is a
fairly simple thing to do. There is an article in
the BT on line archives that explains how to make
a connection to the pressure cooker.  From there
I used 1/4" ID flexible ss ng gas line, the type
that is used for water heaters, to connect the
pcooker to the RIMS chamber (don't forge to
insulate the steam line, it gets very hot!). I
used valves on each end to control the steam
injection rate.

I don't think the steam is super heated at 10 psi,
I am sure it is still wet. The main factor which
determines your heating rate with steam is the
size of your mash, and the amount of energy used
to heat the pcooker.  The 2600W electric burner
I have been using can generate a temp increase
rate of 5 to 6 F/minute on a typical 50 gravity
mash.

You don't want to inject steam directly in the
mash bed as the localized heating of the husks
extracts bitter tannins into your wort - I have
already done this stupid brewer trick.

>Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 07:31:55 -0800
>From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
>Subject: RE: Oxidation of beer due to starters

Tell me that was a typo when you set up your email
account - if not, might I suggest drinking more
abbey beers.  :>) inserted for the humor impaired

Kyle


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Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 12:30:27 -0500
From: Mike Bardallis <dbgrowler at provide.net>
Subject: Taking kegs on the plane

Hey Devon,

I've taken kegs on planes as checked baggage a number of times, and
carried on growlers, bottles, and a party pig. I've never been refused,
but sometimes clueless folk at the airport can be a bit frustrating.

Recommendations:

Wrap keg in cardboard, so it doesn't look so much like some kind of
'apparatus'. Attach a packing list stating what's inside (homemade beer,
for evaluation.)

Allow extra time for discussing the situation with airline agents and/or
security personnel, should they become interested. Be sure to point out
that hair spray, deodorant, etc are _flammable_ contents under pressure,
and they are routinely allowed on commercial flights; you're only 
bringing beer. Use your most polite voice.

Mike Bardallis
dbgrowler at provide.net

MIY2K Events Team

Secretary/GROWLER Editor
Downriver Brewers Guild


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Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 09:43:33 -0800
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: Oxidized yeast starters

Alan said,

>All in all, it seems to me that the major drawback to the settling technique
>is indeed TIME. But, I should point out that you don't have to pour off the
>spent starter at each step during starter production. To avoid introducing
>the oxidized starter wort into the beer you only have to settle out the
>yeast in the final step. Of course, this still take advance planning so that
>everything is ready on brew day and I can tell you from experience that
>there is nothing more frustrating than being ready to pitch and your starter
>yeast is only half-way settled out!

I've been enjoying this discussion.  About a year ago I switched to the
continuous aeration/stirring method of starters.  I have to say that I'm very
pleased with the quality and quantity of the yeast I've been pitching.

I have to agree with Alan about the time factor of waiting for the yeast
to settle.  Yes, chilling can hurry the process but it can result in unfiltered
air getting into the starter if you just put your starter in the fridge without
keeping positive pressure in the starter container.  I typically don't chill
my starter.  It does take a little longer, but my work schedule allows me to
be fairly flexible with my brewing.  I usually try and time my starter so that
it would be ready the day before brewing.  There will still be plenty of
viable yeast and I ensure that as much of the yeast as possible has settled.

John Schnupp



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Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:42:13 -0500 (EST)
From: macher at telerama.com
Subject: More steam stuff


HI All,
 
Terry Stinger <stinger_terry at Lilly.com>
Discusses steam Injection into RIMS

I, like Terry, also have a one-tier three-vessel RIMS 
system. I use steam injection into the recirculation line, 
as I have posted recently.

Terry asks:

>I have fiddled with injecting steam into my 
>return line (from the pump to the mash tun) but
>I had trouble with wort being either pumped or
>sucked into the pressure cooker. Are you steam
>users out there letting the pressure cooker
>build upto 15psi? 

The pressure cooker will only reach a pressure that is 
equal to the back pressure in the path between
it and the injection point. This will naturally vary
according to the flow rate from the pressure cooker and the 
resistance to flow offered by the path through the tubing. 
Turn up the gas under the pressure cooker and the pressure 
will increase somewhat, all else being equal.

In my system, I have a pressure canner which has three 
Settings, 5, 10, and 15 psi. I set the rocker on the 
5 psi setting and when 5 psi is reached it will start to
rock a bit. I rarely see this unless I have the gas turned
up real high. I doubt that you will ever be able to get 
the pressure in the cooker up to 15 psi when the steam is
flowing into your process, unless you have an extremely 
small line carrying the steam.

>What happens when you bleed off the steam into the wort 
>line? Does the back pressure from the RIMS line maintain 
>the cookers pressure or will the cooker eventually loose 
>the necessary "push" to effectively drive the steam
>into the wort line? What does your setup look like and 
>what procedure do you use?

My system has two paths for steam to flow. One is a steam 
dump into the HLT. The other is the line that feeds the 
steam into the recirculation line. My procedure is to 
normally leave the dump line open and get some good steam 
flow going [and expel air from the cooker as well] before 
starting steam injection into the wort. I should also 
mention that my pressure cooker is mounted above the 
injection point of the steam. The steam feed line loops 
over and down into the injection point of my recirculation 
line. If you do not have a way to close the steam line, 
wort will most certainly be drawn into the pressure cooker 
when it cools and the steam inside it condenses and creates 
a partial vacuum.

While operating, the pressure cooker will not lose it's push, but
it will reach a steady-state pressure which is a balance between
the heat input and the flow resistance of the feed line to 
your injection point.

I did a check when building my system to see how high the 
pump would push the wort when the system was operating 
normally. It was something less than six feet above floor level.
What I had planned to do was to loop my steam 
line high enough that the pump could not push the wort into 
the pressure cooker no matter what happened. However, with 
the system as it currently sits I have not needed to worry 
about this, as the pressure of the steam prevents any wort 
from getting into my feed line, and I shut the feed line 
valve when I am not injecting steam.

To start the injection into the recirculation line I 
partially close the valve in the dump line and at about the 
same time slowly open the valve in the feed line to the 
injection point.  After the feed line valve is all the way 
open I close the dump valve so all the steam is injected 
into the wort. The transition is smooth and I do have a 
problem with wort getting back into the feed line or into 
the pressure cooker. To stop injection I reverse this 
process.

Slight back pressure of about 5 psi means that steam 
temperature will be about 227 Deg. F. This has the added 
advantage of keeping the temperature of my insulated steam 
line above the condensation point of steam, so I do not get 
any condensate in my lines and do not experience any "water 
hammer" that I am aware of.

Mike Rose Mike_Rose at prodigy.net asks about the temperature 
of the injected steam:

>Regarding the recent thread on steam injection mashes or
>steam injected RIMS, ( NOT steam jacketed mash tuns )
>is the steam at 212F or 250F?

As I mentioned above, the steam temperature will be a 
function of the back pressure felt by the pressure cooker. 
212 Degrees F. is the temperature of steam at the moment it 
condenses into water. Something like 250 F. is the 
temperature at 15 PSI. In a system using a conventional 
pressure cooker with all the safeties in place, the 
temperature of the steam reaching the wort will be 
somewhere between these two limits.

Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU is  
interested in steam injection into the mash itself. There 
have been some discussions on the HBD in the past and an 
article in Brewing Techniques several years ago about doing 
this exact thing. 

Jeremy Says:

>I'm interested in the steam idea since I could add it on 
>to my existing system but inject into the middle of the 
>mash tun during boosts to speed things up a bit.  Since 
>the steam into the mash idea (but not the steam inline 
>with the recirculation system) lets you in theory heat the 
>entire mash at the same time it has a theoretically 
>unlimited heating rate.

The main concern seems to be excessive localized heating of 
the grains if some sort of mechanical mixing does not 
accompany the injection of the steam into the mash. I do 
not recall if anyone had tried injection into the mash 
while a rims pump was running. Since the concern Jeremy 
expressed is the slow, uneven rate of temperature "flow" 
downwards through his grain bed, I would be afraid of 
developing hot spots within the grain bed that would 
approach the boiling point of water, and/or at least 
temperatures much higher than desirable in the mash.

It is not always obvious at first look, but steam does not 
bubble through a cold liquid. Rather, it condenses 
immediately and turns to 212 deg. F. water while at the 
same time heating a good bit of water/material in the 
vicinity. With the grain bed restricting the ability of the 
heated water to move away by convection, the danger is that 
the liquid and grain mix in the vicinity of the injection 
point may overheat, unless there is some mechanical 
movement either of the injector or the grains.

About the only time you will see steam plumes, when steam 
is injected into water, is when the water is very near 
boiling temperatures. A neat little experiment is to put 
some cold water into a Pyrex flask and inject some steam 
into in. At first you will hear the noise of the steam 
collapsing dramatically. Then, as the water warms above 
normal mash out temperatures, things will quiet down 
substantially. As boiling point of the water in the flask 
is approached, steam plumes will start to form and the very 
little noise [if any, I did this over a year ago] will be 
apparent. Finally the water will be boiling in the flask, 
the steam plumes will have lengthened substantially, and 
the sound will be close to that of a pot of water simply 
boiling on a gas burner.

Steam is pretty neat stuff. But then so is electricity!

Bill

Bill Macher    Pittsburgh, PA     USA





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Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 13:53:29 -0500 
From: "Scholz, Richard" <RScholz at refco.com>
Subject: Finned copper tubing for heat exchange


Phil wrote in HBD 3184:
>
Coils in a Can For those HERMS folks and what not. don't forget about Finned
tubing. Straight copper tubing is about 40% efficient in heat transfer.
Finned tubing is 80%. If you scrounge hard enough you can find the stuff.
The only company that I know of for the stuff is EnerTrans 4445 W. Main,
Canfield OH, 44406. Its very cool stuff. Ask me for pictures if you are
curious. I use mine (3/16 tube, 1/4 fin) as an immersion chiller, but I have
a new one in the works that uses 3/8 tube with a 3/8 fin. Very exciting fun
stuff!!!! Phil Wilcox 
>
You can also look to the site:
http://edwards-eng.com <http://edwards-eng.com>  
They are the manufacturers of the PBS CF chiller and have some intense
finned and channeled CF heat exchangers on their web site.
- ---
Richard L Scholz
(212) 587-6203


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Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 11:13:27 -0800
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Re: More steam stuff

Bill Macher says:

> Jeremy Says:
> 
> >I'm interested in the steam idea since I could add it on 
> >to my existing system but inject into the middle of the 
> >mash tun during boosts to speed things up a bit.  Since 
> >the steam into the mash idea (but not the steam inline 
> >with the recirculation system) lets you in theory heat the 
> >entire mash at the same time it has a theoretically 
> >unlimited heating rate.
> 
> The main concern seems to be excessive localized heating of 
> the grains if some sort of mechanical mixing does not 
> accompany the injection of the steam into the mash. I do 
> not recall if anyone had tried injection into the mash 
> while a rims pump was running. Since the concern Jeremy 
> expressed is the slow, uneven rate of temperature "flow" 
> downwards through his grain bed, I would be afraid of 
> developing hot spots within the grain bed that would 
> approach the boiling point of water, and/or at least 
> temperatures much higher than desirable in the mash.

All true which is why I haven't done it yet.  However it would seem that the
RIMS pumping would provide some mixing (or else I wouldn't have this need). 
Also I was thinking that one might have an injection manifold in the mash
that distributed the steam around a bit.  Anyone play with anything like
this?
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at stanford.edu


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Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:02:35 -0500
From: "St. Patrick's" <stpats at bga.com>
Subject: Budvar Malt

Mark Rose asked about mashing regimes for Budvar Undermodified Malt.

How many posts have been on the digest regarding mash schedules and
modification?  Thousand maybe.  How many books and articles refer to this
subject?  Budvar malt is the first malt in at lest the past decade that
allows brewers to directly address the questions and arguments and issues
raised in each and every one of those posts, articles, and books.  This is
why it is the most important new product in the last 10 years.

There are a host of mash schedules but I would refer people to any of the
good books on mashing such as George Fix's Analysis of Brewing Techniques,
Dave Millers books, Papazians books, Ray Daniels book.  My apologies for
leaving
off several others not to mention the numerous and excellent details
provided on the digest.

I will point out that what often is not emphasized enough is the
need to quickly move between temperature rests. Decoction has an advantage
here unless you have good burners (or use a thick mash to start and then
boiling
water, I think George Fix employs this method.

Ray Daniels' book (who is an excellent choice for Zymurgy and NB)
comes the closest to detailing Czech mashing.  I will
confess that I still don't know every detail because it is not as we think
of double decoction.

The Czechs actually use Double Decoction with rests at 38C, 50C, 65C, and
72C.  the key is to the make the first decoction quite large, use a portion
to get to 50C, the other portion to get to 65C.  Additionally, try boiling
the entire mash for 20 minutes after the 72C rest, then sparge.

But you can of course use more conventional step or decoction mashing as
practiced in other parts of Europe and detailed nicely in any of those books.

The most important rest for undermodified malt is the 50C one.  You could
for example, just do a two step, one at 50 the other at 65-70.

I consider Scott Abene's post to be immature and mean-spirited.

Best regards,

Lynne O'Connor
St. Patrick's of Texas Brewers Supply
512-989-9727
http://www.stpats.com
St. Patrick's of Texas		http://www.stpats.com
Brewers Supply		stpats at bga.com  (e-mail)
1828 Fleischer Drive		512-989-9727
Austin, Texas 78728		512-989-8982   facsimile








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Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 14:08:26 -0500
From: "St. Patrick's" <stpats at bga.com>
Subject: Czech Beers in Colorado

Where can one get Czech Beers in Colorado?  And what beers are available?
This information was requested by an employee of Coors who recently visited
the Czech Republic.

Take Care,
Lynne O'Connor
http://www.stpats.com
St. Patrick's of Texas		http://www.stpats.com
Brewers Supply		stpats at bga.com  (e-mail)
1828 Fleischer Drive		512-989-9727
Austin, Texas 78728		512-989-8982   facsimile








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Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 14:13:11 -0600
From: Jim Layton <a0456830 at rtxmail1.rsc.raytheon.com>
Subject: FWH Utilization

Eric Lande responded to my post on bitterness predictions from
first-wort hop additions.

>Unless someone can say without a doubt that the alpha acid will
>somehow magically disappear...

I greatly respect the opinions of some who have suggested that 
first-wort hops do not contribute a full measure of bitterness to the
beer, 
but this does seem counter-intuitive and I don't buy it. I've read some 
speculative explanations for why the utilization factor for FWH is
reduced 
but I'm not buying them either. Not yet, anyway. 

The summary of the Brauwelt article on Dave Draper's page gives the
measured IBUs for the experimental (FWH) beer and a control beer from
two German breweries. Unfortunately, not enough information is provided
about the hop schedules (amount and boil time) used for me to deduce the
utilization difference in FWH vs. early, middle, and late kettle
additions. What is reported is that the FWH beer had 4% (Brew A) and 20%
(Brew B) higher measured IBUs than the reference beers. The summary
further reports that the tasting panel preferred the FWH beers. The
authors recommended that you do _not_ reduce the total hop charge to
compensate for the higher utilization, speculating that the benefits of
FWH (to include, I suppose, the "fine and mild" bitterness" and good
"hop flavor impression") would be lost. Nowhere in the article summary
did I read that the first-wort hops demonstrated a reduced utilization
factor.

>Sounds like he is putting out the "Bat Signal" for John Varady's expertise.

Anyone is welcome to take the idea and run with it. My plate is pretty
full through March 2000. I do think it would make for a very interesting
exercise. 



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Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 14:41:43 -0600
From: Midwest Brewer <mgeorge at bridge.com>
Subject: AHA Poop Peddling...

I read the first few sentences of the "brief" message that Paul Gatza
posted to the HBD about Ray Daniels joining as an editor for Zymurgy.
While this is fine and dandy - Ray is a respected name in the
"industry", I have some points to ponder.

First, this sentence:  If anyone has any input on what they would like
to see in Zymurgy in content or format, please e-mail me (meaning Paul
Gatza).

For what?  Accolades on the forthcoming "Bottle Opener" issue?  Seems to
me that the last thing from what I've seen here in posts is that the AHA
and Zymurgy really cares about what the readers think.

Second...I have an open question for Paul and the rest of the people
that work at the AHA.  Why in the hell is it that the AHA "directors"
only post here to blow your own horns when something "new" is
forthcoming, yet when people have a problem with something the AHA has
done or is doing, you are nowhere to be found?  I guess you're too busy
reading those letters from readers to determine next months issue of
Zymurgy.

Still not a member...and I don't plan to be from what I see...

Midwest Brewer
Glen Carbon, IL


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Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 12:38:50 -0600
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Re: Class


From: "Bridges, Scott" <ScottBridges at sc.slr.com>

>You might want to consider fiberglass (for the boat, not the mailbox...).

Firberglass boats are boring, sterile and totally lacking in character.
Kinda like Bud?

>It's a great new invention which eliminates those nasty annual varnishing
routines.  Nothing quite like sipping a homebrew watching the sun set....

Reflected off teak and mahogany.

Anyone with enough class to make his own beer should not be content with a
plastic boat.

>Frequently aboard the "Deja Voodoo", but not today, I'm at work.

The "River Rat" rests in peace.  It's feeding fungus as all real boats
ultimately do.

js

PHOTO OF THE WEEK  http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm
HOME: Beer, Cheese, Astronomy, Videos  http://user.mc.net/arf


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Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 12:54:59 -0600
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Stainless Rollers

From: JDPils at aol.com

>I am also concerned that most of these mills use plain Cold rolled steel and
the potential for corrosion.

Then you have but one choice.  The JSP mill is the only one available with
stainless steel rollers, as a very expensive option, I might add.

Plating the rollers with chrome or nickel is only a cosmetic relief as the
plating quickly wears off in use.

Having said that, unless you live on Bermuda or Key West, your concern is
probably unfounded.  Once a mill is put into use, the dust on the rollers does a
pretty good job of inhibiting rust.  Mine has been in a breezy barn (my brewery)
for 5 years and several years in a damp basement before that and there is no
rust on the rollers at all.

js

PHOTO OF THE WEEK  http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm
HOME: Beer, Cheese, Astronomy, Videos  http://user.mc.net/arf


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Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 17:14:57 EST
From: WayneM38 at aol.com
Subject: HERMS RIMS and Rice Hulls

<<On  Wed, 01 Dec 1999 11:11:41 -0500
Terry Stinger <stinger_terry at Lilly.com> wrote
Subject: Steam Injection into RIMS

I have been reading the RIMS and Steam Injection discussions with great 
interest. I have a one tier three vessel RIMS system. I am have tried nearly 
every method of heat exchange possible.
<snip>
The Counter-flow exchanger worked the best. The down side was the exchange 
water (from the HLT) had to be up to temp prior to any boosts.>>

Terry et al.
I am in the process of designing my second HEMan RIMS system this winter and 
agree with Terry on the merits of the counter flow exchanger design. My 
present counter flow system works quite well and is not complicated. You can 
visit Big Fun Brewing at:

http://member.aol.com/bfbrewing/BigFunBrewing.htm

I was lucky enough to meet someone in the stainless tubing/pipe industry and 
found out that 24" long pieces of 20 inch diameter tubing/pipe are sometimes 
located on the scrap pile. I will be pushing my HERMS upper limit to 1/2bbl 
(15.5gal batches) with the ability to boil 18+ gal of wort in my new 24 gal 
brew kettle. These new vessels will also improve kettle and mashtun geometry. 
I will also avoid the step of adding cold water to top off the HLT volume 
after mash in. Once I hit my first rest temp, I can easily raise the temp of 
the HLT from 140F to 175-180F with the total water needed for heat transfer 
and batch sparge water.

The only mechanical change/addition that I plan on making is a gear motor 
stirring device in the HLT to help in the heat transfer between the exchange 
coil and the wort flowing through it. Presently I can achieve 2--2.5 degrees 
per min at the lower step temps and 1--1.5 degrees at mash out temps by 
stirring the HLT with a paddle with the heating loop open and the 
recirculation loop closed. The two separate loops in my system (heating and 
recirculation) have different flow rates. I want to keep the heat exchange 
loop as short as possible to keep flow rates as high as possible and still 
have acceptable temp boosts. 

I have found that the circulation rates/temp boosts vary with the type of 
recipe/grain used. The JSP Malt Mill, DWC pale ale malt and my RIMS are a 
great combo. I get a consistent 90-92% in recipes using that combo.

My last 10 gal batch of Weizen with 60% wheat malt, 35% 2 row, used (5%) 1 
lb. of rice hulls. I used Fix's 40-60-70C step mash and got 88% system 
efficiency (ProMash). Temp boosts during that batch were as listed above. 
Beer tastes great too!!

Up till now, I have overlooked the use of rice hulls to improve RIMS 
circulation rates and now plan on using the 5% rate as a regular recipe base 
ingredient in my new 15 gal. system.


Have Fun!

Wayne
Botanist Brewer
Big Fun Brewing
http://member.aol.com/bfbrewing/BigFunBrewing.htm


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Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 18:13:02 -0500
From: "Rod Prather" <rodpra at netzero.net>
Subject: RIMS Comments:Grainbed flow and increased ramp times

Jeremy, I have not built my system yet and I have yet to see anyone
implement my idea.  I saw what you see, a potential for much faster ramp
times that are limited by the grain bed.  I see this not as a laminar flow
problem but simple fluid flow resistance. If you pump more wort through the
grain bed you end up with bitter beer.  My answer, yet untested, was to have
a grain bed bypass.  A second port that would "rob" wort from above the
grain bed via an Easymasher or a Scrubbie Thingie and mix it with the grain
bed flow wort.  This would increase the flow to the heat exchanger without
increasing the actual grain bed flow.  This is also a system to help
increase ramps in dense grain bills like cereal mashes and barley wines.

The problem is verifying flow volume both through the bypass and through the
grain bed.  Since the total flow is split it would be difficult to verify
how much flow was actually passing through the grain bed.  It could be
possible lose your grain bed flow without knowing it.  Flow meters are
expensive and would pose a cleaning problem.  Simple flow meters won't hold
up to the temperature ranges and the sticky wort would probably be a problem
with the little balls.

Jeremy Bergsman said about RIMS/HERMS ramp times..

>The reason I'm puzzled is that most of the discussion doesn't address what
I
>see as the real problem which is the overall time of the temperature boost.
>Lets say that whatever heater you choose can cause the output to reach a
>couple degrees higher than your target temperature (mine almost can) in one
>flow-through.

Rod Prather
Project Engineer
Industrial Controls and Automation
328 St Road 144
Bargersville, IN 46106

__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at


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Date: Thu, 2 Dec 1999 18:13:02 -0500
From: "Rod Prather" <rodpra at netzero.net>
Subject: RIMS Comments:Grainbed flow and increased ramp times

Jeremy, I have not built my system yet and I have yet to see anyone
implement my idea.  I saw what you see, a potential for much faster ramp
times that are limited by the grain bed.  I see this not as a laminar flow
problem but simple fluid flow resistance. If you pump more wort through the
grain bed you end up with bitter beer.  My answer, yet untested, was to have
a grain bed bypass.  A second port that would "rob" wort from above the
grain bed via an Easymasher or a Scrubbie Thingie and mix it with the grain
bed flow wort.  This would increase the flow to the heat exchanger without
increasing the actual grain bed flow.  This is also a system to help
increase ramps in dense grain bills like cereal mashes and barley wines.

The problem is verifying flow volume both through the bypass and through the
grain bed.  Since the total flow is split it would be difficult to verify
how much flow was actually passing through the grain bed.  It could be
possible lose your grain bed flow without knowing it.  Flow meters are
expensive and would pose a cleaning problem.  Simple flow meters won't hold
up to the temperature ranges and the sticky wort would probably be a problem
with the little balls.

Jeremy Bergsman said about RIMS/HERMS ramp times..

>The reason I'm puzzled is that most of the discussion doesn't address what
I
>see as the real problem which is the overall time of the temperature boost.
>Lets say that whatever heater you choose can cause the output to reach a
>couple degrees higher than your target temperature (mine almost can) in one
>flow-through.

Rod Prather
Project Engineer
Industrial Controls and Automation
328 St Road 144
Bargersville, IN 46106

__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at


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Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 16:01:47 -0800
From: "J. Kish" <jjkish at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: The Marga Mill

Badger Roullett said he likes his Marga Mulino Mill.
 I want one!  Does anybody know who sells this mill?
I even contacted the Merchant of Vino in Michigan, and
they aren't handling them.  Is there a distributor
that can supply them?  Help!


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Date: Thu, 02 Dec 1999 16:26:01 -0800
From: "J. Kish" <jjkish at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Sweet Corn

Jack Schmidling mentioned using sweet corn for brewing.
 When grinding your own corn, don't forget that it contains
the 'germ', and therefore, there may be some oil.
  He sure hit the nail on the head when he said that all
sweet corn is NOT equal! There is good, and there is ordinary.
Instead of Burpees Golden Bantam X, If he wants a really 
great gweet corn, he should try some Kandy King, that
has the Sugery Enhancer Gene.   Best corn in the world!

 That field corn may be designed for pigs, but they don't
use it in Bud!  That would be an improvment!   Bud is an
adjunct beer made with rice.    Now, That's for the pigs!


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---