---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  5 liter mini kegs (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Reher_D=EDez=2C_Antonio-Sven=22?=)
  Re: German Beer ("scott")
  RE: S.S. chillers ("S. Wesley")
  Re: Pat & brewer types (Mark Tumarkin)
  Kinds of Brewers ("Jim Bermingham")
  iodophor ("Russ Hobaugh")
  RIMS/GOTTS (Eric.Fouch)
  Re: Kinds of Brewers ("Houseman, David L")
  Guinness Foreign Extra Stout (Jarvis Moore)
  Boiled Eggs and Hop Farm Tour (Fred)
  RIMS return configuration ("Doug Moyer")
  Beer and Human nutrition, Beer pH (Dave Burley)
  brewer type/nutrition/first all grain (MVachow)
  Beer diets - break out the Thighmaster ("Alan Meeker")
  Re: NYC recommendations (John Baxter Biggins)
  Re: Kinds of Brewers (ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO)
  Brewer type (Jim Larsen)
  HopDevil in NYC/pH/Munich/Nockherberg ("Jim Busch")
  RE: RIMS (LaBorde, Ronald)
  re:what kind of brewer etc (John Lifer)
  Oxygen cylinder - Coors Winterfest (Bill Graham)
  RE: Reverse RIMS ("Martin Brungard")
  UK Homebrew Digest (Michael Josephson)
  "In-line Quartz" and "Flat Quartz" Heaters (Bob Sheck)
  Gushers (Jim Welsh)
  German Beer/Kinds of Brewers/MCAB (Bob Wilcox)
  Coopers Sparkiling Ale (Philip Ritson)


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:02:20 +0100 
From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=22Reher_D=EDez=2C_Antonio-Sven=22?=
Subject: 5 liter mini kegs

Has anybody had any experience with these things? I was planning on
purchasing some, but there seem to be problems with leaking taps and warping
of the kegs.



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 02:25:19 -0800
From: "scott" <Cuckold at cornerpub.com>
Subject: Re: German Beer

I agree, Jack.  Wife and I returned from three weeks in Germany (she's
Deutsch) in Sept.  I'd gladly go back with you!

It's too bad she could not find a great beer.  I had nothing but excellent
luck finding truly great beers in Germany.  Excellent Pilsners as well as
weissbiers.  We did spend one week in France, and did find a variety of good
beer hard to find.  However, the endless supply of inexpensive, good red
wine (and the food) more than made up for that.


My wife just got back from three weeks in Germany and brought back some
interesting comments.  The first thing she wanted after getting home was a
glass of good beer.  Nothing
she had over there could match the World's Greatest Beer.  Knew I should
have gone with. Never send a lady to do a man's job.



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 06:52:19 -0500
From: "S. Wesley" <WESLEY at MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: RE: S.S. chillers

From: S. A. Wesley
Re: SS Chillers

in HBD #3189-17 Marc Sedam asks about the effect of the lower heat
transfer of SS compared to copper on the efficiency of a chiller. 
Based on some exeriments I did a while back on copper chillers I found
that the effective heat transfer coefficient is significantly higher
than the published value for copper.  This is to be expected because
of poor heat transmisssion through the layers of liquid close to the
pipe surface. In short this effect contributes substantially more to
the resistance to the heat flow than the resistance of the metal.  My
guess is that there is no need to worry about the lower heat


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 06:52:49 -0500
From: Mark Tumarkin <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Pat & brewer types

to Dan Listermans's question about types of brewers (mostly based on
brewing frequency), Pat Babcock replied:

"I'm afraid I currently fall into the classification of burnout brewer.
I
*USED* to be a foaming-at-the-mouth technobrewer, but simply can't find
the
time anymore. I do hope to become at least a chronic brewer again, but
lots
of things need to settle down beforehand. Sigh..."

Money is important, and I hope you all are sending in your contributions
to the Server Fund, but Beer is Beer - so I hope you Michigan brewers
that are more local to Pat are making HomeBrew contributions as well.
It's sad to think of Pat not having homebrew due to time constraints on
brewing when he puts so much time into the HBD, thus giving us all so
much ....  :>)

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 07:49:43 -0600
From: "Jim Bermingham" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: Kinds of Brewers

Dan Listerman ask: "What kind of Brewer are you?  I'm a chronic brewer in
the late Fall, Winter,and early Spring.  I brew every 3 to 4 weeks.  The
remainder of the year it's too hot and there's too much work to do on the
ranch.

Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 08:45:16 -0500
From: "Russ Hobaugh" <Russ_Hobaugh at erm.com>
Subject: iodophor



I recently purchased a bottle of BTF Iodophor from my
homebrew shop.  The only directions on the bottle state to use
1/4 oz(1capful) for 2.5 gallons.  Anyone know what strength
this would be?  I was told to use either 12.5 ppm or 25 ppm,
but how long of a soak in each dilution?  Also, how much
would I use just to mix up a gallon at a time.  And finally, how long
does this last.  I have only used One-step up until now, but found
that was not economical to use, and had no shelf life once mixed.

Also wanted to thank everyone for there comments on the scotch ale
question I posted on.  The overwhelming consensus was to use NO
peated malt, just pale(97%) and malted barley(3%) with a long boil
and wyeast 1728 to bring out the smokiness. Thanks for all who
responded.  I did not brew this yet due to a crazy work schedule, but
it will be my next batch!



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:13:00 -0500
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com
Subject: RIMS/GOTTS

HBD-

Thought I'd weigh in on the RIMS thread.  I use a 10 gallon Gott as a mashtun
with a 1/2" CPVC slotted manifold for 5 gallon batches, and a Sankey keg with
the top cut out, drilled, and use as a false bottom as a mashtun for 10-15
gallon batches.  For the heat source, I use a 1500W immersion coil that I
plunge into the grain bed.  A pump provides recirculation, and I have no
problems with scorching or enzyme denaturization.  The heater works great in
the Gott, but in the Sanke, I have decided I need to fire the keg, at least to
help, during temperature boosts.	
Regarding Eric Bonney's 1st all-grain:

>If I decided to do a Barley Wine, how many pounds of grain can fit into
>your typical 5 gallon Grott cooler?  I think I may have to modify the recipe
>and use some extract in order to fit it all in the cooler.

My 10 gallon Gott maxs out at 25# grain at 1qt/pound.  When I mashed in a 5
gallon pot, I could stuff about 12# at 1qt/pound.

I think you have three options for brewing a barleywine:

1) Make 2.5 - 3 gallons all grain.

2) Make 3-5 gallons partial mash

3) Make 5 gallons all-grain by mashing twice and combining the runnings.

One thing you didn't mention is the size of your brew pot.  You will need a
bigger (at least 7 gallon) brew pot to do all grain, or use two 5 gallon (or a
5 and a 3 gallon) pots enable full wort boil capabilities.


Eric Fouch
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery


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Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 09:37:44 -0500 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Re: Kinds of Brewers

I'm an experimental and eclectic brewer.  I brew whatever interests me at
the time and never the same recipe twice.  But not a scientific brewer; I
keep little records -- if I can't remember it, it's not worth writing down.




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 08:53:20 -0600 
From: Jarvis Moore <Jarvis at denbury.com>
Subject: Guinness Foreign Extra Stout

Following a recent trip to England, my father-in-law returned with four
bottles of Guinness Foreign Extra Stout.  I have heard rumors as to the
superior qualities of this brew for some time, but must say I was amazed.
After trying to find the perfect moment, I sampled my first bottle last
night. The flavors and aromas were perfectly matched and I must say that
this was by far the best stout I have ever had!  Does anyone know the
ingredients of this heavenly brew?  What makes it different from its
excellent, but [IMHO]inferior relatives?  Has anyone ever brewed it and have
a good recipe?  

Any and all input is apprecated and private e-mails are welcomed.

"Let's have one more and then we'll go" 

Jarvis (Jay) Moore
Geologist
Denbury Resources Inc.
5100 Tennyson Parkway Suite 3000
Plano, Texas 75024
Direct: 972-673-2123
Fax: 972-673-2299
Jarvis at denbury.com


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Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:30:35 -0500
From: Fred at KingstonCo.com
Subject: Boiled Eggs and Hop Farm Tour

With the recent discussion of pickled eggs and peeling the shells, we
recently applied the "science" of "artfully" cooking the hard boiled eggs to
perfection.

All tests were performed at sea level, please adjust your times to
accommodate any elevation you may experience. Test eggs were fresh Grade A
ExtraLarge. Eggs were allowed to attain room temperature of approximately
76F degrees. Due to elevation constraints, boiling water was assumed to be
at 212F degree. No attempts to jump up in the air with the pot while
measuring were made to adjust for deviations.

Room temperature eggs were submersed in rapidly boiling water. A timer
started, and boiled for 9, 10, and 11 minute batches. At the specified
times, the eggs were immediately removed from the heat, immediately removed
from the pot via a strainer, and the pot and reintroduced eggs was quickly
filled with cold tap water. The ambient temperature of the tap was measured
at 77F degrees. The eggs were allowed to sit in the tap water for
approximately 25 minutes.

At 9 minutes, the yolk was under done, and shell peelability was rated a 6.
At 10 minutes, the yolk was less under done than above, and shell
peelability had increased to 8.
At 11 minutes, the yolk was considered perfectly done, and shell peelability
had reached a high of 9.

Extended boiling times for various samples, 13-20 minutes resulted in
increased egg density (real hard and rubbery) and decreased peelability
factors.

Peelability factors of 1-5 were considered unsuitable for proper pickled egg
manufacturing, however, egg salad characteristics were exhibited.

A factor of 10 would probably never be achieved as this classification was
reserved for eggs that suddenly appeared from the water bath without their
shells.

We did NOT test the Schmidling slow cook dehydration rotten egg methods, nor
his continuous vinegar acid soak to dissolve shells.

It is believed that NO live eggs were injured during these studies, and all
test results were washed down with a recent Oktober'fest beer.

Due to space and server availability, we've elected to host the pictures of
a recent tour of The Morrier Hop Ranch in Yakima, Washington by our good
friends, Charles Rich and Jon Betterly.

http://www.kingstonco.com/hopfarm/hopfarm.htm

Happy Holidays!! and Good Egg Eatin'!!!

Fred Kingston
Kingston & Company
http://www.KingstonCo.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:00:00 -0500
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: RIMS return configuration

I tried sending this directly to Ron LaBorde, but his domain doesn't seem to
exist???

Ron
    In your post to the hbd yesterday, you described an alternate flow
return configuration. It sounds interesting, but did it switch over to a
more conventional style before lautering? It would seem like the method you
described would prevent a filter bed from forming. Or, are you referring to
a reverse style RIMS?


Brew on!
Doug Moyer
Salem, VA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity


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Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:12:14 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Beer and Human nutrition, Beer pH

Brewsters:

Alan MacCay was having an argument over
lunch ( never do that - bad for digestion) on
whether or not beer is good for you or bad for
you. Alan concluded in opposition that beer
is prettty good for you and non-fattening and
that the barf ood is fattening.

The answer is: Beer by itself is pretty
non-fattening, since it has a low fat content.
However, the carbohydrate content of the
beer in concert with the fats from the food
can cause your body to store the fat in favor
of consuming the carbohydrates by ramping
your insulin.   As long as your blood sugar is
high, this will continue. And then when your
blood sugar drops, you get hungry and
consume more carbohydrates and fat
and never lose the fat.

Carbs are non-fattening, but they do make
you get fat, as thirty or more years of low
carbohydrate diets ( Adkins, Power Protein,
etc.) have pointed out. Here's my analysis
of how beer affects your waistline based on
these principles. The beer belly and the idea
that spaghetti was fattening (from my youth
but not by today's beliefs) are, in fact, reality
and both for the same reason.

The older you get, the more insulin resistant
 you become and  not only do you store fat,
but your blood fats get in the wrong ratios
and can plate out as placque. However, if you
operate on a low carbohydrate diet by primarily
forcing your body to consume blood fat as
an energy source all your ratios can come
into place and you have much more stamina.
Unless you have a liver malfunction, cholesterol
no longer is a problem. I personally know of
two older people who have lowered their
blood pressure by this method of eating.
Another was able to stop taking diabetes
medicine, even though she had adult onset
diabetes. All were under a doctor's care. 

Check out the book "Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes
Solution", Berstein, (1997) Little, Brown and
Co, Publishers, if you are suffering from
adult onset diabetes or have a family history.

"Carbing up" before a long race is why
an American hasn't won a marathon in decades
and "hits the wall" when the glycogen (small 

amount of stored carbs in the liver) runs out.
If the body is in a fat burning mode, through
utilization of a low carb diet,  there is 

ample body fat to carry a runner through a 

marathon, even if he is skinny.

It is not just beer that operates this way,
however. Mc Donald's food and most of the
modern American diet is loaded with
carbohydrates and fat in combination
( French Fries, Meat and Bread, Bread and
butter, etc, etc.), so we are on the same diet
used to fatten hogs and it shows around our
beltline as a nation. We are not pigs, we just 

eat like them as they get ready for the slaughter..

Why are our bodies built this way? Think
on this. Generally, for two million years 

or longer the only sources of concentrated
carbohydrates were available in late
summer and fall as fruits, nuts and grains. At
this time of year, any fats we consumed
were deposited so as to prepare for the
upcoming famine during winter. It is a
survival tool. Starting only about 10,000
years ago we learned to farm and store
grains and began to eat carbohydrates all
year long and 3/4 of the population began
to put on fat all year long.

Ponder this. Milk has sugar and fat for a reason.
The sugar is useful for immediate energy
needs of the baby. It also causes  the fat to get
deposited for later use, as needed, along with
the milk protein in cell building and maintenance.
Milk is the perfect food for babies but not for adults.
Ask yourself how useful is non-fat milk ( which still
has a high carb content) in a meal in which
other fats are consumed? Non-fat milk makes
you fat!  And fatter than beer, ounce for ounce.
And it tastes foul, besides! Use cream ( zero
carbohydrates) instead of milk in your coffee
and no sugar, please.

When you eat and drink beer, avoid eating
other carbohydrates, eat protein and minimize
the fat. However, please note that BOTH
protein and fat are necessary cell nutrients
( as we yeast growers know). Carbohydrates
are not a nutrient in the sense that they do
not provide building blocks for our body.
Maintenance of our adult bodies require a diet
consisting of replacement protein and fat.
Without protein in the diet, our body consumes
protein from the muscles. And as a result our
faces sag, we get loose skin and worst of all 

our metabolic rate per lb of  body weight goes 

down. You will put on weight faster as a 

result. So be sure you get plenty of protein.

What ever happened to beef roast,
roast chicken, steaks and such as a main
meal? Eschew the potatoes, bread, milk, etc.
Eat green and colored vegetables. Avoid
catsup and BBQ sauce ( high sugar content)
in favor of mustard.

How important is beer as a source of
carbohydrates? Lite beer has about 5 grams
of carbs per 12 oz and normal beer about
12 grams. Heavier beers ( Bock, etc) will
likely be higher. That slice of bread is worth
12 grams, so beer is truly "liquid bread" just
not "a loaf in every glass" as used to be said.
6 french fries has 12 grams. 1/2 cup  of baked
potato is worth 12 grams of carbs. 1/3 cup
of cooked spaghetti ( try eating just that)
is 12 grams. Just to give you a comparison.

Remember, a quarter pound of 

dried spaghetti ( a small portion) is equivalent
to eating nearly a quarter pound of sugar once
your body converts it. Spaghetti is more fattening
than beer, contrary to current wisdom. And I
presume the source of the bit of parental wisdom
that I received that spaghetti is fattening
( in combination with all that olive oil in the sauce).
Use that fact in your next discussion.

And milk? 12 ounces has 16 grams of carbs.
More than beer! If you still feel you need dairy
food, eat normal 4% cottage cheese which has
no carbs and not the lowfat variety which does
have carbs! 


Work on the effect of antioxidants on protecting
you from heart attacks, like in wine, are mixed,
with early Swedish studies showing beer and 

liquor having no major effect ( even negative
at high consumption rates) on reducing the
risk of heart attacks, in contrast to the 

French Paradox and red wine. Recent studies
seem to indicate that colored beers can have
a positive effect. More data is required, IMHO.

Drink your beer with pleasure, modify your
eating habits slightly. The relaxation of one
or two brews will lower, at least,  your mental
blood pressure, flood your system with much
needed fluid to flush out your plumbing and
you will enjoy your friends and family more.

All-in-all, a great lifestyle. 

- -----------------------------
On Lynne O'Connor's surreptitious pH
testing of beer pH in bars and comment
that she can taste 0.1 pH unit differentials.
 I suspect that like wines, it is the acidity
( ppt acid) and not pH which is important
in tasting the acidity of beer. Beer is a buffered
system, so it will take a lot of acid to
change the pH and why you are apparently
so sensitive to a small pH change, IMHO.

Just a guess. Anyone ( BJCP) with
some data?
- ---------------------------------------

Keep  on Brewin',

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:27:39 -0600 
From: MVachow at newman.k12.la.us
Subject:  brewer type/nutrition/first all grain

Stick me in the serial brewer category.  Things get too busy to brew, weeks
pass, then a holiday pops up and a weekend or so on either end, and I brew
until I fill every available vessel and maybe a  carboy or two sponged from
a friend.  
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------------
Alan debates the nutrional value of beer with a friend.  As with any
nutritional question, it's important to consider not only the food itself
but also the behaviors surrounding the food.  A McDonald's hamburger isn't
fattening per se, but it's incredible availability, its existence in many
psyches as a comfort food, the convenience it offers in an increasingly
fast-paced culture, the shift from meal as social event to food as fuel, all
of these things and others have made for, what some would argue, a deadly
national passion for fat, salt and excessive, empty carbohydrates.  Some
geneticists would also argue that these "passions" might even become
genetically encoded after a while.  Beer is another perfect example of how
important it is to consider food in context.  Beer has some nutritional
value, probably about as much as your basic plate of pasta.  It's fattening
because of the behaviors it inspires or becomes associated with.  Alcohol
and its temporary pleasing effects on the brain (for some at least), lead
many to drink too much.  And, in turn, alcohol's depressant
charactereristics tend to make most people more sedentary.   Beer's
connection in many minds to fatty, salty restaurant foods and socialization
(where the effects of alcohol play an important role), lead many to drink
more than they should for the sake of nutrition.  These psycho/chemical
associations are nearly indelible.  I do a pretty good job of staying away
from empty calories, but a couple of beers still conjure up cravings for
pizza, burgers, a chorizo taco.  If I cave in to the craving and have
another beer to wash it down, I'll crave a smoke, a habit I gave up 10 years
ago; the next day, I feel crappy because of the food, the alcohol and
general over-consumption and bag my workout.  The average body size at my
city's homebrew festival is larger than the city average (New Orleans won
the national fat award waddling away last year), but it's not because beer
is fattening; it's because many homebrewers drink too much beer.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
Eric asks about first all grain batches.  I'll pass along some advice I got
from a good friend when I began.  Get your chops by brewing simple styles so
you can build a set of comparable data and thereby gain a firm understanding
of mash procedure and process.  Brew low to mid gravity ales (pale ales of
all sorts, porter, stout, wheat beers, etc.), use well-modified 2-row,  use
single step infusion mashes.  It's easy to go style wild when you begin
brewing all grain beers.  Restrain yourself for the first five batches or so
from brewing high gravity beers, decocted styles, styles calling for
under-modified malts.   

Mike


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Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:53:33 -0500
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Beer diets - break out the Thighmaster

Alan McKay asks about the possibility of beer being much of a contributor to
weight.

Sorry Alan but those beers contain anywhere from 100 - 200 calories (OK,
these are actually kilocalories if you want to be technical) on up. Since  a
typical sedentary male in this country only needs on the order of 2000
calories per day each pint could easily represent 10% of your daily caloric
needs. Drink a few and you've consumed a fair amount of your daily budget.
All that greasy bar food doesn't help matters either!

 -Alan Meeker
 Baltimore,MD






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Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:28:50 -0500
From: John Baxter Biggins <jbbiggin at mail.med.cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: NYC recommendations

The Malted Barley Appreciation Society, Brooklyn's homebrew organization,
sponsors the BEER ALERT and BREWPUB ALERT which regularly updates as to
what's on tap at the local beer bars.

Check it out at http://hbd.org/mbas/beer.html

IMHO...best beer bars :  d.b.a, Blind Tiger, and Sparky's (if you can make
it into Brooklyn).  None of these serve food, but you can bring in youir
own.

Best brewpubs:  Heartland Brewery (has pretty good food) & Commonwealth
Brewery (who just put up a Flander's Red).


- -------------------
John B. Biggins
Cornell University Medical College
Weill Graduate School of Medical Sciences
Student -- Program in Pharmacology

Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center
Department of Molecular Pharmacology and Therapeutics
Laboratory for Biosynthetic Chemistry
lab:(212)693-6405   fax:(212)717-3135

	"Science, like Nature, must also be tamed
	   With a view towards its preservation.
	 Given the same state of integrity
	   It will surely serve us well."
	    -- Neil Peart; Natural Science (III) -- Permanent Waves



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Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:19:00 -0800 (PST)
From: ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Kinds of Brewers


hmmm, 

I am a possessed brewer... Sometimes Chronic... Sometimes Chain...
Lately though with new born twins I am finding time to brew when I
can. 

I like to brew big batches mostly because I can.. I love
experimenting with gear and making new brewing toys to amuse myself
with... 

Yep... I am hooked. 

C'ya!

 -Scott

=====
ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT
Scott Abene <skotrat at mediaone.net>
http://www.skotrat.com (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page)

"The More I know about beer politics, The more I wish I made 120k"
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.


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Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 13:05:18 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Larsen <jal at oasis.novia.net>
Subject: Brewer type


I must categorize myself as a chronic brewer, usually once or twice a
month (often back-to-back brew to take advantage of the yeast cake).

Lapse brewer and digest janitor Pat claims he doesn't have time. Like,
what are you doing with your spare time, running a listserve? Financial
support is all well and good, but this man needs us to ship him homebrew!

Jack, of course the beer at the Hofbrauhaus was mediocre. That's the
oldest tourist trap in Bavaria. I haven't been to Munich in 25 years, but
I remember the Hofbrauhaus as being a low point.

Jim Larsen
Omaha


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Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 14:24:34 +0000
From: "Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com>
Subject: HopDevil in NYC/pH/Munich/Nockherberg

Pardon the shameless plug opportunity but.....

Pete asks about HopDevil in NYC, the distributer for NY is:
SKI Beer Co. (NYC) (718) 821-7200

and various Victory beers are usually on tap at dba and The Gingerman 
among other good beer bars.   Check in often at victorybeer.com for 
details.  dba recently had cask Old Horizontal from firkin too.  And 
this coming Wed's tasting at the Brickskellar in DC will also feature 
a cask of Old Ho with Ron Barchet and myself in attendance.

Lynne mentions the importance of pH, another great topic in brewing, 
and mentions that ones taste can easily pick up a 0.1 difference.  
Since pH is logarithmic, this makes perfect sense but even more 
amazing is the ability of the human senses (aroma and taste) to 
detect and differentiate various beer constituents.  While this is a 
learned process its still quite astounding how significant our 
palate/senses are.  Its also interesting to note how these same 
senses can be completely blind to some constituents, such as those 
who are unable to detect any concentration of diacetyl.  Gadgets and 
technobabble are fantastic but the simple nose and tongue are quite 
something too!

While we are on the topic of  virtues of European malts, dont forget 
how easy it is to employ Saurmalz (lactic acid malt) as an 
alternative to direct acid additions.  Depending on your water source 
it can be very useful or unnecessary.  We used to make Export bier 
using Saurmalz but it started to get too acidic in final beer pH so 
we dropped it.  Larger Reinheitsgebot brewers employ a lactic 
fermenter system to maintain a constant lactic acid production tanks 
at very low pH, warm and sour.  Quite an interesting taste to try, 
once!

Jack, Lowenbrau (umlats omitted) was bought by Spatanbrau over a year 
ago.  Id be surprised if they dont still make and sell Lowenbrau 
though, I recall reading that they are merging operations and just 
brought online a new canning facility.  At any rate, any lifelong 
local Munich resident will tell you that the LionBrau is not rated 
very highly among the big 6 with Augustinerbrau taking top honors 
among beer geeks.  Paulanerbrau is also merged with HackerBrau 
(who had merged with Pschorrbrau) who had gobbled up Thomasbrau long 
ago (at least one of those ate the other...).   To reach the holy 
grail go directly to the suburb in Perlach to Forschungsbrauerei and 
drink an earthenMasskrug of St Jocobus Blonder Block, pure nirvana.  
Andechs Doppel is also close. Speaking of Doppels, terrible news from 
Nockherberg, home of the annual Starkbierfest of Paulaner.  It burned 
down a few weeks ago. ;-(

Prost!

Jim Busch


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Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 14:05:22 -0600 
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: RIMS

>From: "Sandy Macmillan" <scotsman at kems.net>

>I do not see the need to use oil when temperatures of 200F are discussed.
>Water would be adequate.

I agree, water would work just fine, and you would not need to close or seal
the vessel, just leave an escape hole for any pressure or steam that may
need to escape. 

>I have been using quite successfully my old deep fat fryer filled with
water
>with a small stainless steel coil immersed in the water. I control the
>heater with a simple on off thermostat. This has been successful for about
>six brews so far.

Ooh, I would like to go high tech and use the microwave oven with vinyl
tubing as the heat exchanger, but I haven't been able to deal with the
radiation problems.

>I am now experimenting with the idea to sense the grain bed temperature and
>use this to control the heater, so that I maintain a constant flow over the
>grain.

This has me really wondering, how many of you RIMS'ers really know what the
temperature of  your mash is at.  Most seem to use a sensor at the outflow
point of the heat exchanger.  But, this is a long way from sensing the mash
temperature.  How many sense the mash exit temperature?

The reason I am skeptical, is because my setup has the thermometer near the
bottom of the mash, and the temperature runs 5 to 10 F below the exit
temperature from the heat exchanger.  You have loss from the plumbing to
consider.  All the PID's in the world cannot keep the mash within 1 degree F
if the sensing is at the exchanger outlet.

All of the above is opinion, not proven fact.  What say all.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu


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Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 10:30:10 -0800 (PST)
From: John Lifer <jliferjr at yahoo.com>
Subject: re:what kind of brewer etc


 Got to thinking about this and how much I've been
drinking lately.  Wondered to myself if I'm drinking
too much or conversely, not enough!
Got out my brewing notebook, counted 39 batches since
1995.  Threw out two batches, but have had a couple of
10 gallon batches so total is about 40 x 5 or 200 gal
Or doing the conversion, an average of about 13 ounces
per day.  Not too bad, considering that I've had a
little help in drinking 2 or 3 kegs worth. Good bit
under that limit of 200 gal per year!
John
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Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 17:04:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Bill Graham <weg at micro-net.net>
Subject: Oxygen cylinder - Coors Winterfest

Greetings, zymurtistas!

I bought an an old oxygen cylinder at a garage sale this summer. It looks
to be about a five pounder. The problem is that it has, what we call it
here in colorful Colorado, "surface rust". Lots of little dimples of rust,
none of which are deep, ugly, or large. My question is, can I sand this
thing down and repaint it? I guess the bigger question is "what are the
legal implications of me trying to reuse this thing?". Will it need to be
hydro'd? Can I even get it refilled? Where can I get a regulator/gauge for
it? Any other legal, practical, and safety issues I need to worry about?

******

Eric Schoville <eschovil at us.oracle.com> says -
>Anyone tried Coors Winterfest this year?  I bought my first six pack
>last night, and they surely have changed the recipe.  This beer is
>definitely not a lager, IMO.  Anyone have the facts?  I am sorry to see
>one of my favorite seasonal beers go to hell.

As a denizen of Golden (see, I told you Colorado was colorful), I've
bought this every holiday season for the last handfull of years, and its
been an ale for at least the last two or three years. They change the
recipe every year, so, obviously, it tastes different every year. Frankly,
I wish it was still the "vienna lager" it started out to be, and that
George Fix liked so much. Oh well, it is still a pleasant holiday brew.
That reminds me - has anyone seen if Noche Buena is selling this year in
the states?

zymurgraphically yours,
	Bill

"...the only way to deal with bureaucrats is with stealth and sudden
violence."  -  Butros Butros-Ghali


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Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 17:47:45 EST
From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Reverse RIMS

This comment was posted recently:

"The pump that I bought from Moving Brews (one of the March models) 
indicates that for proper function, it needs gravity to prime and "feed" the 
pump.  It specifically indicates in the included materials, not to use the 
pump to "suck" fluids up and out of a vessel as would be the case in a 
reverse RIMS.  I'm not a pump expert, and I suspect that once you created 
the siphon flow over the top of the mash vessel, the whole thing may become 
moot, but the "instructions" still stand.  You're not supposed to use the 
pumps to "draw" wort over and out of the vessel, but to push wort.  What say 
the engineers and pump experts?"

There are some good points that need to be addressed here. I also have a 
pump from Moving Brews for my RIMS.

In my professional life as a civil engineer, I frequently deal with pumps, 
although they are usually in the tens to hundreds of horsepower range. Some 
of the advice given with the March pump needs to be taken with a grain of 
salt. Its true and not true.

The points stated in the previous post were that the pump needs to be 
gravity primed and that it cannot be used to suck fluids up and out of a 
vessel. It is true that these particular pumps are not self-priming and that 
they cannot pull fluid very high without loosing their prime. This is due to 
the design of the pump impeller and volute chamber.

My RIMS design has the pump located at the bottom of the mash tun, but it 
does draw the wort up and over the rim of the tun. I have found that the 
pump has to be fully primed before it will pump very well. Just putting some 
water into the pump and piping will not get the pump to prime itself. I have 
to apply a vacuum to the discharge hose to draw the wort fully into the pump 
and piping. I could use one of those squeeze bulb primers, but I've been 
using my mouth. Obviously, if the wort is hot or boiling, I have to do this 
operation with the pump off and pinch the hose once I get the pump and 
piping full and can turn the pump on after. This works just fine.

The thing that is important in the layout above, is that the pump is located 
low. It doesn't really matter that the flow has to go up and over the rim of 
the tun or brew pot. It would matter if the pump was located above the tun 
or brew pot. Then, the combination of the extra pump elevation and the head 
loss through the the grain bed or trub could exceed the pump's ability to 
draw the liquid up.

The bottom line is that you can use the March pumps to suck liquids up, but 
not too high. I recommend that the pump be mounted as low as possible to 
make the pumping easier. In addition, the priming problem with having the 
inlet pipe go up and over the rim of a vessel can easily be handled as 
described above. This info should allow homebrewers to disregard the 
instructions given with the pumps.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL

"Meandering to a different drummer"

PS: The reason I'm going up and over the side of my tun and boil pot is that 
I don't have the extra penetrations to install or have leak. My RIMS tun is 
patterned after C.D. Pritchard's apparatus excepting that my bottom screen 
assembly is plumbed into a vertical riser pipe that goes up the side of the 
bucket and over the rim. The inlet and outlet assemblies come right out for 
cleaning. In addition, I can get almost all the wort out of the tun by 
tipping the bucket over a bit to the side that the riser pipe is located at. 
Hopefully I can get a schematic of the whole system posted on the web some 
day.

______________________________________________________


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Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 12:48:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Josephson <blackcatbrewing at yahoo.com>
Subject: UK Homebrew Digest

Does anyone know if the UK Homebrew Digest is still
alive, and if it is, what is the current request
address?

Thanks.

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Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.


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Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 19:33:43 -0500
From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net>
Subject: "In-line Quartz" and "Flat Quartz" Heaters

Jeff, et. al:

I took a look at:
>http://www.watlow.com/thickfilm/

And I believe that some (if not all) of these heaters
emit LIGHT as part of the heating process. I do know from
experience that the type of heaters used in Laser Printers
Does emit light. So these may not be the way to heat wort!


Bob Sheck

bsheck, me-sheck, abednigo! Greenville, NC 
email:bsheck at skantech.net or see us at:
http://www.skantech.net/bsheck/
(252)830-1833
- -------------
"Madness takes its toll -- Please have exact change!"


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Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 22:11:23 -0600
From: Jim Welsh <jwelsh at execpc.com>
Subject: Gushers

I recently brewed a Holiday Spice Beer that had a high original gravity
due to the 3 pounds of honey I added. I bottled the beer 2 weeks ago
with 3/4 cup of corn sugar and went to test the carbonation today. As
soon as I opened the bottle, it gushed. I tried another bottle and again
it gushed. The beer tastes incredible, but obviously I bottled it too
early. Is there anyway to stop the gushing? I thought about opening all
of them and recapping them, but I am not sure if this is wise. Any help
or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks


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Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 20:24:02 -0800
From: Bob Wilcox <bobw at sirius.com>
Subject: German Beer/Kinds of Brewers/MCAB

Jack asked about German Loenbrau. I haven't seen any around but I did
have a Lowenbrau Zurich a couple of weeks ago at a local Pub. It's was a
Dark Lager and very good. You may need to look for that one. I know
Lowenbrau Zurich and Lowenbrau Munich are no hooked up together.

I fit into the chronic brewer class. I brew once a month. Whether the
boss likes it or not. It's our kitchen, I just have a hard time
explaining that to her.

I got my tickets to St. Louis for the MCAB just need to call the Hotel
for a room. I get in at 2:40 Friday afternoon. Any word on who the
speakers my be or any other plans yet. Jeff I would like to catch up
with you and the guy's from Michigan for some beers. I may have some
room in my bag's to bring some local West Coast  beers. Let me know if
there is something you guy's cant get. Any one else from the San
Francisco Bay Area going back.


Bob Wilcox
Alameda & Long Barn California
bobw at sirius.com


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Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:48:55 +1030
From: Philip Ritson <philip.ritson at adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Coopers Sparkiling Ale


anyone got a good recipe for Coopers Aparkiling Ale?  I know it's got
about 18% sugar (Sucrose?) and the base is Australian pale malt
(Franklin
or Schooner?).  Yes, I know, the yeast can be salvaged from a bottle of
commercial
CSA, and the hops must be Pride of Ringwood in one addition (because who
the hell would be stupid enough to use Prides for flavour or aroma).
But I don't know what Coopers does to its water (Adelaide waters very 
high in sodium chloride - so high its peobably treated at Coopers to
remove it).
 


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