HOMEBREW Digest #3205 Mon 27 December 1999

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  Re: Scotch Ale ("Joe-Bob Briggs")
  Tannins/got more better yet. ("Stephen Alexander")
  Government Beer Diet Study (Dave Burley)
  Re: Mixers (Dave Ludwig)
  Amount of hops (Kevin McDonough)
  Re: Cask ale from a Corny (Michael Josephson)
  cyber-shadow (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Running errands and "step mashing" ("Jack Schmidling")
  re: RIMS woes (RobertJ)
  Further to SG/Polyphenols (AJ)
  consistency / efficiency / flavor ("Stephen and Carolyn Ross")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 22:47:31 -0800 From: "Joe-Bob Briggs" <Yo at Home.Net> Subject: Re: Scotch Ale ><< Willy Warmer Wee Heavy, 140-Shilling Scotch Ale >> (Brian Dixon) >> >> OG: 1.110 >>FG: 1.042 (approx. abv 9%) >> >> >> >Congratulations, Brian! How was your carbonation level? I've brewed Scotch >ales at this OG a couple of times and haven't been able to get them to >carbonate. > >Thanks, > >Keith MacNeal >Worcester, MA Carbonation was fine. If anything, a bit high for the style. You have to pour gently to prevent forming too much of a head ... and the head you get is very creamy like a nitrogen poured beer. I used the usual 3/4c corn sugar, expecting it to carbonate less than lighter beers would with this amount of priming, but no problem! I attribute my big beer carbonation success to good yeast health (start with quite large starters, meet minimum nutrient levels .. especially Ca (min. is 50 ppm), and use pure oxygen in starters and main batch). Haven't had a big beer fail me yet! Oh, and I use Wyeast Thames Valley (#1275) most of the time 'cuz it produces a darn good beer and is better performing than Wyeast Scotch Ale or Irish Ale. I'm really in love with that Thames Valley stuff ... (Thanks to Joe at Corvallis Brewing Supply, Corvallis, Oregon for the original recommendation that got me to try it.) Brian Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 02:59:16 -0500 From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at ieee.org> Subject: Tannins/got more better yet. AJ says ... >>Tanin is extracted in a high liquid to grain ratio causing astringency. > >While a high liquid to grain ratio may cause more tannins to be >extracted it is nevertheless true that appreciable tannins are extracted >during the boils of decoction mashes. [...] >the lower pH of the decoction mitigates tannin extraction somewhat. Even >so, my decocted beers have polyphenols typically 5 times those of >undecocted beers as they come out of the fermenter. and later >[..] I did recheck the two lagers [...] >In once case the polyphenols actually went up [...] Extremely interesting - tho' the meaning is highly dependent on what one calls a tannin. Can you describe the test you've performed to measure tannins (tannoids, total phenolics, ...?). Apologies if you've already described it - perhaps offline if you think interest is thin. Another interesting question that you may be in a position to answer AJ is the impact of PVPP or Polyclar or Nylon66 on tannin levels and the flavor of the beers. That decoction wort contains greater amounts of total phenolics than infusion is certainly true. The question is what sort of phenolics and what is their impact on flavor. As M&BS states ... "Decoction worts contain more OXIDIZABLE polyphenolics and fewer OXIDIZED polyphenolics than infusion worts." (emphasis is mine) The increase after the fermentor is perhaps telling of the source. Perhaps the most common definition of tannin is a phenolic compound with a MW of 500 to 3000 which is capable of binding to protein (or some proxy material, a gel of PVPP etc). Not all of these compounds are astringent. Haslam [see 'The Flavanoids', Chapman&-Hall 1975, and 'The Biochemistry of Plants', v7, Acad Press, 1981] reported that astringency in phenolics requires a 1,2 di-hydroxyl or a 1,2,3-tri-hydroxyl arrangement for the phenolics. Still ... most interesting. === Note to JeffR. I once took 1800vdc across my hand while testing an oscilloscope PS and I got much better than Eric Fouch, so don't knock it if ... My hand does hit down-pg involuntarily whenever I read the word "brewster" but I think that 's a 'feature' not a bug. -S Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 09:01:08 -0500 From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: Government Beer Diet Study Brewsters: Yesterday, scientists for the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) suggested that men should take a careful look at their beer consumption, considering the results of a recent analysis that revealed the presence of female hormones in beer. The theory is that drinking beer makes men turn into women. To test the finding, 100 men were fed 8 pints of beer each. It was then observed that 100% of the men gained weight, talked excessively without making sense, became overly emotional, couldn't drive, failed to think rationally, argued over nothing, and refused to apologize when wrong. No further research is planned. Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 11:31:17 -0500 From: Dave Ludwig <dludwig at us.hsanet.net> Subject: Re: Mixers > Scholz, Richard posted recently: . . . > > I thought I would try cobbling together a mash mixer of my own. I'll start > with a gear motor, rated at 50 ft/lbs torque at 3rpm connected to a paddle > of some type. . . . . > > And Joy"T"Brew said: > ...This geared motor only develops 13 foot pounds of torque if I've calculated > properly? H&R Co. sales 1-800-848-8001. The Reversible super hi torque > (2500 oz/in at 3.3 rpm) part number TM96MTR2940 at $69.95 does the job. ... > 3 - 3.3 RPM seems way to slow for efficient mash mixing unless you're just trying to short circuit channeling. I get visible circulation of the mash but no agitation using about 60 RPM in the SHMS. Jack Schmidling uses 30 RPM and apparently gets good results. How does your mixer work at that RPM Joy? Happy Holidays! Dave Ludwig Flat Iron Brewery SO Md Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 12:01:27 -0500 From: Kevin McDonough <kmcdonou at nmu.edu> Subject: Amount of hops In Papazian's New Complete Joy of Homebrewing, there is a recipe for Toad Spit Stout. It calls for 3.3 lbs. of John Bull hopped dark malt extract syrup. If I wanted to use a non-hopped dark liquid malt extract from some other company (e.g. Hoptech), how much do I increase the hops in the recipe to equal the amount in the hopped extract? The recipe calls for 1.5 oz. of Northern Brewer hops in the boil and 0.5 oz. of Fuggles or Willamette hops as a finishing hops. Would I increase the Northern Brewer hops to 2 oz to compensate? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks much. Kevin McDonough kmcdonou at nmu.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 10:00:17 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Josephson <blackcatbrewing at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Cask ale from a Corny Hi all and Happy Holidays, It was my question a couple of weeks back that has prompted this fascinating thread about serving real ale from Corny kegs. I thought I would offer an update. First, getting the kegging setup was the best thing I've done for my brewing (since going all-grain). The beer tastes better. I'm now serving beer that reminds me of the ales that I've had during my trips to England . Wonderful. I decided to forgo any complicated gravity or beer engine dispensing systems for now. And I'm quite happy with my technique, even though it may not be Camra approved. Here is what I did: - --Racked the beer into the keg with 1.5oz of priming sugar and 1/2oz of East Kent Goldings. Waited 2 weeks for it to come into condition. - --To dispense, I first bleed the builtup CO2 out of the keg. Then I attach the gas line with the PSI set at 5. When I'm done dispensing for the evening, I repressurize the keg to 5psi and unhook everything. I'm very happy with the results. Perfect carbonation. It tastes like cask ale to me. Cheers, Michael Minneapolis, MN _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 12:31:09 -0600 From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald) Subject: cyber-shadow From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org> >I bought a >case (6) of 2 liter Erlenmeyers and another case (4) of 2 liter beakers Merry Christmas to all. And Pat, great that you are into brewing big time again! Wow! I can only imagine what old time brewer you were, your shadow is impressive. :>)) Ron Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu http://members.xoom.com/rlabor/ Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 25 Dec 1999 11:33:22 -0600 From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net> Subject: Running errands and "step mashing" From: The Holders <zymie at sprynet.com> >Gee, I guess you go run errands while doing a step mash just like I do. Guess that depends on what the meaning of "run errands" is. I find it hard to believe that you get in the car with the wife and kids and do the weekly shopping while mashing. But if you do, "god bless us everyone". I get a lot of other things done while mashing but have the sense to check on it every 15 minutes or so. It also depends on what the definition of "step mash" is. I can start my mash at room temp or any other temp and by setting the heat very low, have my mash slowly pass through every rest temp that has ever been conceived. So in a sense, I can do an infinite "step mash" that probably does everything that one could ever taste in a beer without even thinking about the details. I don't bother of course because, as my wife said after returning from 3 weeks in Germany, "I couldn't wait to get home and have a really good beer". The bads news is that the last of the WGB for the season is below the sight glass in the keg, so any glass may be the last. js PHOTO OF THE WEEK http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm HOME: Beer, Cheese, Astronomy, Videos http://user.mc.net/arf Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 08:50:43 -0500 From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com> Subject: re: RIMS woes Jack Schmidling says: "In a few hours and at a fraction of the cost, one can make a MIXMASHER http://user.mc.net/arf/mix.htm which takes all the tedium out of kettle mashing and have a system that does everything a RIMS is supposed to do I like the idea of constant stirring, but can a mixmasher set the grain bed? Bob Precision Brewing Systems URL http://pbsbeer.com Manufacturer of 3 Vessel Brew Systems, HERMS(tm), SS Brew Kettles, SS hopback and the MAXIchiller Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 19:49:24 +0000 From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com> Subject: Further to SG/Polyphenols With reference to the sg to Plato coefficient set attributed to Noonan a couple of days ago (P = -616.868 +1111.14*SG -630.272*SG^2 + 135.997*SG^3), these turn out to be the ASBC's official coefficients [American Society of Brewing Chemists "Report of Subcommittee on Statistical Analysis, JASBC 42:138 (1984)] and I should be recomending these rather than my own which, though they give a slightly better fit to the ASBC's tabular data, do not do so to a significant extent and do not carry the imprimatur of official blessing. Further to Steve's comments on this subject - it's quite interesting the way things work out. The formula for pounds of extract in a gallon of wort is, using Steve's symbols Msg = Muw*SG*P/100 Msg = pounds of sugar in a gallon P = plato measure of wort = (percent of wort mass estimated to be solute). Muw = mass of a unit volume of water, in this case 1 gallon at 20C Mg = mass of grist SG = specific gravity of wort. p = points of gravity = 20C/20C specfic gravity minus 1 divided by 1000 P is, as we have been discussing, very well approximated by a polynomial P = b0 + b1*p + b2*p^2 + b3*p^3 b0 = -0.00352427, b1 = 0.2585875, b2 = -0.000222294, b3 = 1.36104E-7 Using the definition of p we get Msg = Muw*(1 + p/1000)*(bo + b1*p + b2*p^2 + b3*p^3)/100 If you multiply out this whole mess and look at the values you will find that the terms other than b1*p tend to cancel one another so that, approximately Msg = Muw*b1*p/100 What's happening is that the slope of the P vs. p curve, which decreases with increasing p, is compensated for to a large extent by the (1 + p/1000) factor by which P is being multiplied. For water at 20C a gallon weighs 8.32167 pounds (in air) so that Msg = .0215188*p = p/46.47 which implies that one pound of sugar in one gallon of solution would give 46.47 points of gravity. The relationship just given is an approximation. A better one is Msg = -0.0030086+ 0.021729*p and a better one still Msg = -0.00044765 + 0.021542*p + 2.2643e-06*p^2 but the differences are small. One pound per gallon gives, using the more accurate (seond order) formula, 46.22 points (as compared to the 46.47 value obtained by ignoring all coefficients except b1). As this is the region in which we expect to work for most of our beers, it makes sense to want to minimize the error at about this level so we suggest Msg = p/46.22 as a better approximation than p/46.47.This formula is accurate to +/- 0.0015 pound/gal up to about SG 1.054. The error then increases rapidly mounting to 0.007 at SG 1.083 which is still only 0.4%. Taking the concept of best accuracy in the region of usual operation a step further yields the slightly more complex (Taylor expansion) formula: Msg = 1 + (p-46.22)/46 which is accurate to within .001 pound per gallon between SG 1.023 and 1.064 (it is dead nuts on at 46.22 and the error increases the farther you get from 46.22 being 0.003 at SG 1.008 and 1.080.) It still has the desireable property of being easy to remember - forty-six being the key. Note that Steve uses 46.15 points/lb/gal as the constant and I am using 46.22. The difference depends on whether the weight of a gallon of water is that obtained in vacuum (gives 46.15) or air (gives 46.22). The ASBC tables are based on Plato's (Kaiserliche Normal-Eichungskommission 1900) tables which tabulate sucrose specific gravity in vacuo at 20C/4C. The ASBC tables were computed from the Plato tables by converting specific gravities in air at 20C/20C to vacuum 20C/4 Cvalues and then entering the Plato tables. Thus, the ASBC tables are for air, 20C/20C and thus I have convinced myself that the air density of water should be the value used in my calculations. Finally, Steve mentioned the fact that the maltsters' published CG and FG numbers are on a dry weight basis but didn't mention this as an error source in extract efficiency estimation. Moisture pick-up can be as significant a source of error as some of the others he cited. A newly opened bag of malt can pick up a couple of percent of its weight in water from the air in a matter of days. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * In another post Steve asks for a few words on how I measure phenols and what types of phenols the test detects. I use the "International Method" which is the ASBC's "Beer -35 Total Polyphenols". It's a very simple test in which beer is mixed with a carboxymethyl celulose + EDTA solution to which ferric amonium citrate is then added followed by ammonia. The blank is another sample of the beer without the ferric ion addition. The type of phenols detected are, thus, any which develop a red color with ferric ion in basic solution. The total phenols are estimated as 820 times the absorbance at 600 nm in a 1 cm cell. Thus the test is not very specific. To give some examples, my ales usually run 150 - 400 mg/L or so, decocted lagers to over 1000 and weak tea about 125. - -- A. J. deLange Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore. Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 1999 13:48:56 -0600 From: "Stephen and Carolyn Ross" <rosses at sprint.ca> Subject: consistency / efficiency / flavor Hoppy New Year to all. Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> notes that efficiency measurements can be used as an indicator of consistency. I agree that consistency is important ( I think I said "Only predictable efficiency is required for proper recipe formulation.") I must pick a nit and disagree partly with Dave's comment: "If your efficiency is varying OR LOW then also you are likely not consistent. I think both flavor AND efficiency are important." (my emphasis) I think it is possible to have both a consistent and low efficiency. Efficiency definitely has a bearing on beer flavour. But maximizing predictability/consistency and maximizing efficiency are not the same. It doesn't follow that in order to have consistent results you have to have maximum efficiency. Maximizing efficiency may not be desirable. According to Fix, an increase in efficiency correlates to an decrease in positive flavour profile. Nit successfully picked. cheers! Stephen Ross ______________________________________________ The Rosses Stephen, Carolyn and Sam rosses at sprint.ca 306.665.8336 "Vitae sine cerevesiae sugat." Return to table of contents
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