---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  3 Keg Brew System - Advice Wanted ("Elizabeth Smith 14")
  Mixers ("Mr. Joy Hansen")
  One-Step Sanitizer ("H. Dowda")
  Speise priming results (Greg Remake)
  Hand Grenade on the Table -- GMO ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Toad Spit Stout (Jeff Renner)
  Mixmasher ("Jack Schmidling")
  Thermodynamics ("Jack Schmidling")
  A Chilling Thought... (Jamie)
  Looking for indoor natural gas burners ("Justin S. Peavey")
  oxygenation systems. (Ballsacius)
  Re: Clone & Book review (erniebaker)
  1999 Happy Holidays Homebrew Competition Results (Brian Dreckshage)
  what a wacky, wacky man. (The Holders)


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
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*** HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO YOU AND YOURS! ***
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Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 00:58:11 -0000
From: "Elizabeth Smith 14" <Gahboo at pdq.net>
Subject: 3 Keg Brew System - Advice Wanted

Dear Collective,
Thanks in advance for ignoring any dumb questions or superfluous description
here.  I am soon to be new all grain brewer and have just completed my three
keg system.  I have been extract brewing for about three years.  General
description of construction of the system hopefully sets the stage for the
questions listed below.  It is not "3 tier", since I do not have the storage
space.  I need a system that sits low to the ground and is really stable.  I
built a wheeled frame, with burners and pumps mounted in the frame so as to
allow all three kegs to be at waist level.  Actually is is really nice, and
if anyone wants pictures, I can make them available.

Two pumps are used, one for HLT, and one for the mash vessel.  Both are high
temp capable.  A single manifold runs paralell to the length of the frame
and is mounted 3" above the top of the vessels.  Piping and valving are
arranged to allow recirculation of the HLT and mash vessel contents. (false
bottom installed, of course).  I do not plan to use this as a continuously
recirculating RIMS type setup.  I do not want the electronic stuff, but am
really attracted tot he idea of indirect heating of the mash.  I will  use
gravity to drain the boil kettle.

I hard piped all the plumbing with copper except for the exits from the
manifold returning back to the vessels.  I used 1/2" tubing here so I could
see if any air is being sucked during recirculation.  All piping is 1/2"
copper and compression fittings are de-leaded brass.

An important feature is the heat exchanger coil in the HLT.  Mash liquid can
be recirculated  in the coil to indirectly heat the mash without applying
direct heat.  I used 35 feet of 1/2" tubing and it works like hell.  The
setup was able to raise the temp of 10 gallons of water at 100 degrees in
the mash vessel to 120 in less than 5 minutes.  The temp of the water in the
HLT was 180 at start.  I built it this was to facilitate multistep mash
regimens.

Now for my questions:

1.)    First, is this whole business of indirect heating worth it?  I
thought it would be great for maintenance of temp during long rests and
doing multi step mashes.  I could always plug the holes, remove the coil,
and thereby eliminate some of the questions below.

2.)    Should I purge the copper piping with CO2 before each brewing
session?  I have never had HSA problems with my stovetop extract brews, but
I fear that the pumps may expose me to HSA.

3.)   How paranoid do I need to be about cleaning the piping after each
brewing session.  I was planning to just run lots of water through the
piping since it all ends up in the boil kettle anyhow.

4.)  Should I lay up the piping, particularly the coil in the HLT, wet or
dry?  I suppose this might influence the answer to question 2 above.  I like
the idea of leaving the pipes full of water when not in use because the coil
takes a long time to rinse gas out of it when you first run liquid through
it.  I do not like to see bubbles recirculating in the mash liquid return.
Eventually, they rinse out after about 30 minutes of recirculating at full
flow, but it is a pain.  Hence, I would like to store it wet.  On the other
hand, I am a bit afraid that slime will accumulate in the coil.  I could
blow the piping out with CO2, but I doubt I could get all the water out.

5.)    How do I calculate mash water requirements when I do a multi rest
mash.  I do not want to use boiling water additions unless I need to.  It
seems simpler to me to recirc the mash through the coil in HLT and
indirectly heat it.  This means that the mash thickness does not change.
Should I put the sum of all water additions planned for the boiling water
infusion method into the mash tun at the start and then just step it up by
recirculation?



Any other advice, warnings, corrections, guidance, etc. appreciated.  I even
get off on flames.  Email OK.  Thanks.

Ken Smith
Houston, TX





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Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 06:39:27 -0500
From: "Mr. Joy Hansen" <joytbrew at patriot.net>
Subject: Mixers

Dave Ludwig wort:
>
3 - 3.3 RPM seems way to slow for efficient mash mixing unless you're
just trying to short circuit channeling. I get visible circulation of
the mash but no agitation using about 60 RPM in the SHMS. Jack
Schmidling uses 30 RPM and apparently gets good results. How does your
mixer work at that RPM Joy?

Joy"T"Brew makes an opinionated response:

In a SRIMS system, channeling is only an issue during the run off(s).  Much
like it would be in Jack's approach if he uses a zap/zap like lauter, or
your SHMS.

I'm thinking that Jack doesn't  use a RIMS like system, meaning
recirculation.  Also, he's most likely doing single infusion mashes, which
are widely accepted among home brewers as appropriate.  If so, there's no
possible way to compare Jack's good results with Joy's or Dave's results!
These approaches get the job done.  AND, Jack's and Dave's brews might be
considerably better than Joy's!

Any mashing system that I'm aware of requires stirring to adequately
distribute the heat within the mash to create a reproducible wort
composition.   A simple temperature probe of several areas in the mash will
indicate when the mash temperature is evenly distributed (2 degrees or less
through out the mash).

The SHMS, if I understand your meaning, uses a heat exchanger coil in both
the sparge water and the mash tun to transfer heat to the mash.  To get
acceptable temperature ramps, the heat in the recirculating water must be
considerably above the mash temperature.  I think this means that the mash
must be stirred like mad.

Jack might only need brief stirring to accomplish adequate temperature
distribution.

In my SRIMS as some put it, the recirculated liquid enters the stirring
shaft and exits in two or three arm that are perpendicular to the shaft.
The bottom arm also runs a scraper/mixing blade to help clear the false
bottom to allow adequate flow through the system.    There's likely a dozen
3/16 holes in the arms, and one in the end of each arm.  In addition to
stirring, the force of the liquid jetting from the arms causes an unmeasured
reverse circulation much faster than 3 RPM.   To this date, this has
prevented scorching on the dual 5000 watt low density water heater elements
drawing 10 amps at 110 volts.  I get near one degree/minute during
temperature ramps and temperature variation through out the mash of less
than 2 degrees.  Measured with my Brewtemp wand.

Still pictures don't show the system in operation; however, anyone is
welcome to ask me for a couple I've put together.

Thanks Dave, as you pointed out my error in recommending a mixer motor that
only satisfies my system requirements.  Each system IS different .  .  . and
requires the reinvention of the wheel


                                               Joy"T"Brew



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Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 07:20:14 -0800 (PST)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: One-Step Sanitizer

I cannot find a commercial source for this product any
longer.  E-mailed the company > 1 wk ago, no reply. 
Anyone have a source?  Are they still in business?

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


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Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 09:51:12 -0600
From: Greg Remake <gremake at gsbalum.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Speise priming results

Emboldened by a paper by Paul Claasen referred to in the HBD about a year
or so ago, I decided to try priming with speise (or gyle).  Speise is
simply wort that is removed from the rest of a batch prior to fermentation,
which is boiled and added back at bottling in lieu of corn sugar (or other
priming fermentable).  I've tried priming with DME in the past and was
generally pleased with the results, but I like the idea of priming with
wort from the same batch, having the same malt and hops profile.

Anchor Steam is reportedly kraeusened, so I attempted speise priming on a
recent batch of California Common, as priming with speise looked to be
easier than kraesening.  Although the quantity can be calculated much more
precisely (as shown in the paper), I found that 2 quarts of wort from a 5.5
gallon batch is about right.  After chilling, I drew off about 2 quarts of
wort from the kettle into sanitized bottles that I capped and stored in the
refrigerator.  

When I bottled, I boiled up the speise and added it to my bottling bucket
instead of a corn sugar solution.  While racking to the bottling bucket I
filled a couple of bottles for a control sample.  I primed these bottles
with about one teaspoon of corn sugar boiled in a tiny bit of water.

The bottles have conditioned for about a month now, so I had my wife assist
me in a taste test.  She poured three glasses of beer from the two priming
methods, one of one type and two of the other, and I tried to identify
which was which.  It was surprisingly easy, and even my wife perceived the
differences.  The speise-primed beer was slightly darker, perhaps from a
bit of carmelizing when I boiled the speise.  Most noticeable was the
difference in heads.  The speise-primed beer kept a creamier, finer,
longer-lasting head than its sugar-primed counterpart.  The sugar-primed
beer initially had a taller head, but after sitting for a few minutes it
developed much larger bubbles, and its height fell below that of the
speise-primed beer.  Differences in taste were also evident.  The
speise-primed beer had a maltier flavor, and the sugar-primed beer had a
noticeably thinner body.  

I'll be the first to admit shortcomings in my testing approach, primarily
lack of ensuring exactly equivalent levels of priming fermentables.  But my
results indicated to me that I preferred the beer primed with speise over
that primed with sugar.  There is slightly more effort associated with
accounting for, collecting and storing the speise, but the results seem to
be worth it.  I'll definitely be repeating the practice.

Cheers!

Greg


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Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 19:29:53 -0500
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Hand Grenade on the Table -- GMO

Well, traffic is light so I'll toss the hand grenade on the table (or ask
the question if you prefer that term). 


What is the collective opinion on use of Genetically Modified Organisms for
brewing?

Mine is, it makes no difference to me.  I'll go for the best performing
product at the best price.


Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY



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Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 08:50:09 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Toad Spit Stout

Kevin McDonough <kmcdonou at nmu.edu> writes:

>In Papazian's New Complete Joy of Homebrewing, there is a recipe for Toad
>Spit Stout.  It calls for 3.3 lbs. of John Bull hopped dark malt extract
>syrup.  If I wanted to use a non-hopped dark liquid malt extract from some
>other company (e.g. Hoptech), how much do I increase the hops in the recipe
>to equal the amount in the hopped extract?  The recipe calls for 1.5 oz. of
>Northern Brewer hops in the boil and 0.5 oz. of Fuggles or Willamette hops
>as a finishing hops.  Would I increase the Northern Brewer hops to 2 oz to
>compensate?

I'm afraid that I don't know the hopping level of JB extract, so I can't
help you much on that, except to say that these old-line British cans
aren't hopped  very highly.  Some years ago Zymurgy published an article
with the hopping levels of a number of extracts.  Perhaps someone has that
on line.

However, I just checked and copnfirmed that that was the recipe that CP
calls for 8 tsp. of gypsum, a ridiculous amount.  You don't need the
calcium for an extract beer, and that amount of sulphate is looking for
trouble, IMO.  I've never made the recipe, but I'd worry about a high
unpleasant bitterness.  At most, I'd think the gypsum was unnecessary.  I'd
cut it to no more than 1 tsp.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 15:11:51 -0600
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Mixmasher

From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com>


>I like the idea of constant stirring, but can a mixmasher set the grain bed?

That again depends on what the meaning of "set" is.

The object of a a mixer is to mix.  In my sense of the meaning of "set the grain
bed", one would use the off switch.  Actually, I remove the mixer, put the cover
on and let it sit for 30 minutes.

js

PHOTO OF THE WEEK  http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm
HOME: Beer, Cheese, Astronomy, Videos  http://user.mc.net/arf



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Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 15:21:43 -0600
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Thermodynamics

This has little to do with beer but I know I can always find expertise I lack
somewhere in this group.

I am trying to set up a humidity/temp controlled room for  cheese aging  but
can't even get beyond the fundamental problem of measuring humidity, much less
controlling it.

I have four hygrometers, two analog and two digital and they are all nutty,
relative to each other and the world.

So I am measuring dew point and comparing this with dry bulb temp and getting
nowhere with the psycrometric charts.  I want to use this to calibrate the
hygrometers.

My living room has a temp of 68F and a dew point of 40F.  This is off the chart,
below 0% RH.

According to the wx radio, it's 20F outside and the dew point is 5F and the RH
is 64%.  These numbers are not even on the chart.

What am I missing?

js


PHOTO OF THE WEEK  http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm
HOME: Beer, Cheese, Astronomy, Videos  http://user.mc.net/arf



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Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 15:06:30 -0800
From: Jamie <jamie at pub-sf.com>
Subject: A Chilling Thought...


Greetings Collective!

While bemoaning the current lack of snow in the Sierra and it's impact
on boarding/skiing (or lack therof) the idea that this was possibly the
beginning of another drought got dredged up, and I had a thought about 
brewing and water conservation...

Right now I'm using a really nifty C-F chiller, which doesn't use a huge
amount of water - less than coils in the kettle, but I was thinking that
trying to cut down excess water use might not be a bad idea.  

Given the cost and all, a glycol chiller is out of the question, but I
was thinking that thermally connecting the wort outlet tube to the 
evaporating coils of a window air conditioner might work.  Something on 
the size of 1/2 ton or so would probably do the job assuming I get good
thermal contact and do some good HX design, but I think that's a bit on
the big side for a "window" unit. 

Has anybody ever tried playing around with this idea?

Jamie

- -- 
Quantum Physics says beer only comes in discrete quanta, such as 12 oz,
16 oz, 
32 oz, six packs and assorted kegs. The stores dont sell 3 oz beers or  
19 .747545322 oz beers. You can get an available quantum or be thirsty. 

          <----    http://www.pub-sf.com    ---->
          <----       jamie at pub-sf.com      ---->


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Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 20:06:15 -0500
From: "Justin S. Peavey" <jpeavey at peaveynet.com>
Subject: Looking for indoor natural gas burners

While in the process of building an indoor RIMS system, I'm looking
for any recommendations on natural gas burners, preferably ones that
will shut off if the flame goes out.  

Many thanks,
Justin Peavey


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Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 21:17:16 EST
From: Ballsacius at aol.com
Subject: oxygenation systems.

Happy Holidays all! Santa has been nice enough to leave me a *few* bucks to 
use toward my beer making. I am an all-grain brewer, so I have most of the 
major equipment(but always tinkering). I am thinking about buying an 
oxygenation system. I know that Liquid Bread makes one and there are a few 
other varities made by various homebrew supply stores. What has been the 
experience with any of these systems? Are they worth the 
investment(avg$40-$50)? Private e-mail is okay, I willsummerize and post to 
the group.

Thanks in Advance

Bob Fesmire
Madman Brewery
Pottstown, PA
Ballsacius at aol.com


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Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 18:40:52 -0800 (PST)
From: erniebaker at webtv.net
Subject: Re: Clone & Book review

1. Looking for a clone recipe for "Samuel Smith's Nut Brown Ale", prefer
extract or extract/partial mast.
2. Anyone in brew land have a copy of "Brew Your Own British Real Ale"
and used the recipes?  Would like to know if the book is worth buying
and trying.
3. Happy, Healthy New Year to all.

Ernie Baker
29 Palms, CA






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Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 13:50:18 -0600
From: Brian Dreckshage <dreck at concentric.net>
Subject: 1999 Happy Holidays Homebrew Competition Results

Best of Show - Erik Nelson, Sauk Rapids MN, with his Belgian Ale.

To see the list of all winners, please go to www.stlbrews.org

Thanks to all entrants, sponsors and volunteers for making the
competition a great success.  Hope to see you at MCAB 2000 in St. Louis

The St. Louis Brews




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Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1999 20:48:08 -0800
From: The Holders <zymie at sprynet.com>
Subject: what a wacky, wacky man.

Is it just me?

Jack says:

>Guess that depends on what the meaning of "run errands" is.
>I find it hard to believe that you get in the car with the wife
>and kids and do the weekly shopping while mashing.  But if you do,
>"god bless us everyone".


Well, I guess that all depends on the meaning of "wife and kids" then,
doesn't it Jack? 

Maybe you should also define "shopping" for us?

Maybe I should get out my EZDICTIONARY (tm).


>I get a lot of other things done while mashing but have the sense to 
>check on it every 15 minutes or so.

Well, in my non-"sense"-ical Rube Goldberg brewing operation, I have
sensors that check the mash and hot liquor temperatures many times every
second. I guess that all depends on what the meaning of "check" is
though.


>It also depends on what the definition of "step mash" is.  I can start my >mash
>at room temp or any other temp and by setting the heat very low, have my >mash
>slowly pass through every rest temp that has ever been conceived.  So in a
>sense, I can do an infinite "step mash" that probably does everything that >one
>could ever taste in a beer without  even thinking about the details.


How silly of me to think of timed rests in between temperature raises as
a "step mash".

I vote that Jacks linear non-step mash be entered into the FAQ (is there
one?) as the definition of "step mash". All mashes that have non-linear
temperature profiles will now be referred to as "multiple jumpy mash
thingies". 

I also propose that anyone using a wort chiller have this process
labeled as "non JSP compliant".


Proudly mashing with a false bottom, and grinding with the HHHoagie
Mill, 

Wayne Holder AKA Zymie
Zymico, Webster, Rube Goldberg and associates brewing Co.
Long Beach CA
http://zymico.web.com


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