---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Horizon and Amarillo hops ("George de Piro")
  re: Hand Grenade on the Table -- GMO (Dick Dunn)
  Once stuck, always stuck? (DawgDoctor)
  dew point ("Czerpak, Pete")
  O-Ring Part No. (THaby)
  Re: GMOs (james r layton)
  re: mixers (Dave Ludwig)
  John Bull BU ("Bob Carbone")
  Bomex vessels - a followup (Pat Babcock)
  Kitchen Aid GMA grain mill (Rudi Wehmschulte)
  Summary of responses on Nottingham lag times ("Paul Shick, John Carroll University")
  Protz and Wheeler book ("Paul Shick, John Carroll University")
  LOGIC Inc Still Here ("Eric R. Theiner")
  RE: 3 Keg Brew System - Advice Wanted (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Wacky Wisdom ("Jack Schmidling")
  Oxygen Hardware (William Graham)


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Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 00:13:41 -0500
From: "George de Piro" <gdepiro at mindspring.com>
Subject: Horizon and Amarillo hops

Hi all,

There was some mention of Horizon and Amarillo hops in a recent HBD, with
Peter Czerpak mentioning my "Pump Station Pale" which is hopped exclusively
with Amarillo.  I have also used Horizon a good deal.

>From the Brewing Techniques 1998 Brewers Market Guide:

"Amarillo:  A new variety discovered as a mutation by a grower and now being
produced in small quantities by Hop Union.  Characterized by mid- to high
alpha acid content, and low cohumulone, colupulone, and humulene.  Similar
to Cascade in aroma.  Preliminary response from brewers has been positive."

"Horizon:  A high-alpha multipurpose cultivar developed at the ESDA program
in Corvallis, OR, and recently released for commercial use.  Considered a
mid-alpha hop with extremely low levels of cohumulone.  Currently grown on
about 20 acres.  Matures mid-season.  Susceptible to downy mildew.  Moderate
to good storage stability."

Not a tremendous wealth of knowledge, but better than nothing.  My
experience with these hops follows:

I have used Amarillo as both a dry hop in a beer with no other Amarillo and
I have used it as the only hop in a brew.  In both cases it imparts a
distinctive grapefruit note to the beer, but with a more resinous character
than I find in Cascade.  Its higher alpha content also means you can use
less for bittering, yielding a more manageable trub pile after the boil.

I have used Horizon as both a bittering hop in the kettle and a dry hop.  I
find it to give a smooth bitterness; perhaps too smooth.  I have found
myself wishing that the beers I bitter with it were a little sharper, but
still it is a very nice bittering hop.  As a dry hop it imparts a pleasant
floral aroma.  Not incredibly distinctive but quite nice(to my nose; then
again, hop ID is a weakness of mine).

I like both of these hops and will continue to use them. I have no
affiliation with any hop farmers, etc.  I must now get back to transferring
my Helles Weizenbock. It is quite tasty, if I do say so myself (I just did).
Stop by and try it if you are in the Albany, NY area.

Have fun!

George de Piro

C.H. Evans Brewing Company
at the Albany Pump Station
(518)447-9000
http://evansale.com  (under construction)

Malted Barley Appreciation Society
Homebrew Club
http://hbd.org/mbas



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Date: 27 Dec 99 23:17:21 MST (Mon)
From: rcd at raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: re: Hand Grenade on the Table -- GMO

"Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com> wrote:
> What is the collective opinion on use of Genetically Modified Organisms for
> brewing?

This is like asking the "collective opinion" on the WTO (and actually it's
a lot more similar than you might think, in the abstract).  There are
issues in several categories:
  * pure price:performance (short-term benefit)
  * emotional perspectives (science is good/bad/scary/clever/inept, etc.)
  * long-term issues (economic balance between suppliers of seeds and other
    "organisms" against growers/propagators: will GM materials ultimately
    reduce our options)
  * community issues (who gains or suffers at whose hands?)
Perspectives tend to be driven by the "who you are" and "where you live",
so answers don't make sense without that.  Also, people are badly confused
about definitions of "genetically modified" and "transgenic" and the like.
In a sloppy definition, GM could refer to selective breeding which has been
going on for millennia; that's not useful.  Take it to mean either direct
manipulation of genes (chemical/enzymatic action and the like) or modifi-
cation of one organism with genes from a different species (using the
standard definition of "species" as "can interbreed").

I'm a scientist or pseudo-engineer but I live on a small farm.  I won't use
GM anything here if I know about it, first and foremost because the patent
issues scare the hell out of me, second because I have reasons to mistrust
the testing, third because the economic "benefits" are negative (non-GM
produce commands a premium just as organic does), and fourth because older
and diverse plantings are more robust.

Turning around and thinking as a user rather than a producer, I'd avoid GM
based products first because I don't like the power shift: I don't like to
see my neighbor across the road losing money while the stockholders of
agribiz companies gain.  (It's OK with me if they gain as long as it's not
taken out of the hides of farmers!)  Second, again, I don't trust the
testing, the science.

It's all scattered out along a range of views...to take an example out of a
close-by domain, consider egg production.  Most folks don't know how
commercial eggs are produced, and don't care.  The rest know that the hens
live their lives in a 1-cubic-foot box and have to be shot up with drugs to
keep laying eggs that won't kill us (and even then, only with severe
cooking).  Some folks respond to this by not eating eggs at all.  Some
respond by finding the few producers who don't treat their chickens that
way.  Some respond by raising their own hens.  Some shut off their minds
and disconnect what they know from what they eat.

Our main ingredient is barley.  What does it matter?  I think, for brewing,
I'd still steer clear of GM varieties, but I'd be more concerned about a
different aspect, namely what's sprayed on the grain along the way?  Barley
for brewing goes through a radically different process than what happens to
most grains we use.  Does that process wash away pesticides, or extract
them?

> Mine is, it makes no difference to me.  I'll go for the best performing
> product at the best price.

Personally, I take a very different view, because I'm not so poor that I
have to be driven by short-term economic benefit.  I can consider issues
relating to community, long-term economics, biological diversity, and the
like.
- ---
Dick Dunn          rcd at talisman.com          Hygiene, Colorado  USA


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Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:43:10 EST
From: DawgDoctor at aol.com
Subject: Once stuck, always stuck?

Last week, I posted this request and determined that my efficiency is 
somewhere between 71 and 76%.  Now another question.

Please help me calculate my extraction efficiency.
8 # Marris Otter
0.5 # Flaked Barley
1.0 # Flaked Wheat
0.5 # Dextrine Malt
0.5 # 60 L Crystal Malt
0.5 # Chocolate Malt
0.5 # Roasted Barley
8 tsp hersey's coccoa

11.5 # total grain + adjuncts
 
104 F 140 F 158 F x 30 min each mash schedule

Initial runnings 1.062 pH=5.2
Final runnings 1.032 pH=5.3
Kettle (collected 7 gallons) 1.042 pH 5.15
Final wort (5.5 - 5.75 gallons) 1.052 

I racked this into the secondary last night after 8 days and the gravity read 
1018.  By reading previous digests, I am way under pitching my yeast.  I 
pitched about 400ml of Wyeast 1084 Irish Ale yeast. Apparently, I have always 
way under ptiched and have made some excellent brews with extract prior to 
all grain brewing. (This is my 11th all grain brew.)  I got active 
fermentation somewhere between 12 and 24 hrs.  Did not get that big thick 
foamy head like I did with my belgian white.  Is this a stuck fermentation?  
Since active yeast are still around, will it always be stuck?  Will it 
eventually finish in the secondary?  While away for christmas, we cut back on 
the heat and the temp dropped to around 60 F.  This may be a contributing 
factor.  The recipe calls for lactose in the bottling bucket.  Should I boil 
the lactose with the bottling sugar?

Please reply directly to this address or send me a copy of the posting (I 
have an outdated computer and can only check email). 
Todd in N.C.


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Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:46:20 -0500
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: dew point

JS asks about thermodynamics and reading the dew point (psychrometric
charts) to start to control humidity for cheese making.

For the given dew point of 40F and the actual temperature of 68F, I find a
relative humdity of about 35%.  This should give a wet bulb temperature of
about 53F.

Anyways, the way to read the chart:

1) find your dew temperature on the dry bulb temperature axis(usually the
x-axis) and draw a strainght line up until it intersects the curved axis
(wet bulb or saturation temp). Call this intersection A.

2) find your measured temperature also on the dry bulb axis and again draw a
straight line up until it intersects the curved axis (wet bulb temp). you
don't need to call this intersection anything.

3) Draw a horizontal line from the intersection of the dew temp vertical
line on the sat temp axis (A) until it intersects the verticaL line that you
drew in Step 2 above. call this intersection B.

4) Read the relative humidity from intersection B using the constant
relative humidty curves.

Now about the outside weather numbers that you reported - difficult to find
using my data taken from Elementary Principles of Chemical Processes by
Felder and Rouseau (which gives a nice example on reading the RH from
psychometric charts). The chart from this book is taken from data from The
Carrier Corp. who make air conditioners, etc.

I did manage to find data that goes that low however in Perrys Chemical
Engineers Handbook.  I think you may have mistyped or misrecorded the RH
humidity or switched the numbers since I am getting about 46% RH using the
5F dew pt. and the 20F actual temperature. Is that 64% you gave correct or
is it really 46%?

Hope this info helps. 

Pete Czerpak
Albany, NY


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Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 8:31:21 CST
From: THaby at swri.edu
Subject: O-Ring Part No.

Hello collective,
 I'm assuming that the O-rings on corny kegs are fairly standard (large and
small) and am looking for a part number either in Parker or Wynns O-ring sizes.
  Does anyone happen 
to know what these are?  Thanks bunches,

Tim Haby
Rio Medina, TX


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Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 08:58:53 -0600
From: james r layton <blutick at juno.com>
Subject: Re: GMOs

Peter J. Calinski asked:

>What is the collective opinion on use of Genetically Modified Organisms
for
>brewing?

Great question.

I'd prefer to avoid them, but I honestly don't have a rational reason
why. For me, its more of a spiritual thing. I prefer to use traditional
ingredients in traditional ways. I am an organic gardener for the same
reason. The end result is only a part of what I like about home brewing.

As a side note, I've really fallen in love with heirloom tomatoes. Some
varieties have a flavor far better than any hybrid I've tried. Lower
yields but better tomatoes. I'll bet those genetic engineers never get
around to improving the flavor of the plants they are working on.

Jim Layton
Howe, TX


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Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 10:24:31 -0500
From: Dave Ludwig <dludwig at us.hsanet.net>
Subject: re: mixers


  >Joy"T"Brew makes an opinionated response:
  >The SHMS, if I understand your meaning, uses a heat exchanger coil in
both
  >the sparge water and the mash tun to transfer heat to the mash.

Just in the mash tun. The sparge water is pumped directly through the
coil. Why make it more
complicated?.

  > To get acceptable temperature ramps, the heat in the recirculating
water must be
  >considerably above the mash temperature.

Not really. 5 to 10 deg F above the target mash temp works well
depending on the impatience factor. I am planning to modify the
controller software to automatically set the sparge water temperature to
5 deg above the mash set temperature for my next brew. 5 deg above the
mash temp for the heating coil is very gentle heating.

  >I think this means that the mash
  >must be stirred like mad.

The SHMS design is intended to work with a mixer to promote circulation
of the mash over the heating coil in the tun. 60 RPM works well even
though I haven't really experimented a whole lot with other RPMs. The
action on the mash is sortof like clothes in a washing machine minus the
agitation action. Toroidal circulation maybe best description. Stirring
like mad? Yeah, maybe. Wouldn't want to do it manually.

  >Jack might only need brief stirring to accomplish adequate
temperature
  >distribution.

Not really any basic difference. My heat source is hot water in a small
coil, Jacks is from a burner under the tun.

 > In my SRIMS as some put it, the recirculated liquid enters the
stirring
  >shaft and exits in two or three arm that are perpendicular to the
shaft.
  >The bottom arm also runs a scraper/mixing blade to help clear the
false
  >bottom to allow adequate flow through the system.

Boy, I'd like to see how you made that! Scan your pictures and post 'em.

Cheers,
Dave Ludwig
Flat Iron Brewery
SO MD



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Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 10:35:03 -0600
From: "Bob Carbone" <bcarbone at wnonline.net>
Subject: John Bull BU 

Hi All,

Kevin McDonough asks for the hopping rate in a can of John Bull dark
extract. After seeing Jeff Renner's post reminding us of the information on
malt extracts published in old Zymurgy Special Issue, I went to my bookcase
to see if I had this issue. I actually do have it, it is Special Issue 1986.
The BU (according to the article, "BU" refers to Homebrew Bittering Units.
It is a measure of the equivalent number of ounces of hops times the percent
alpha acid of the hops in the packaged product.) information for the hopped
dark extract is missing, but the numbers for the light and amber extract are
listed. The BU for the light is 9.0 per can and 2.7 per pound. The BU for
the amber is 10.0 per can and 3.0 per pound. This information will probably
get you in close to the range of hops needed.

Cheers!
Bob Carbone
Grand Cane, LA



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Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 12:12:28 -0500
From: Pat Babcock <babcockp at mediaone.net>
Subject: Bomex vessels - a followup

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Just noticed that the 1000 ml Erlenmeyers I bought from Williams Brewing 
are Bomex, too. Still, they are higher quality than the ones I got from 
Indigo...


 -
See ya!
Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock/
"Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."




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Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 13:07:06 -0600
From: Rudi Wehmschulte <rjwehmschulte at chemdept.chem.ou.edu>
Subject: Kitchen Aid GMA grain mill

Dear Fellow Home Brewers:

We own a Kitchen Aid Classic Stand Mixer. I am wondering if their
accessory, the "GMA grain mill" can be used for crushing malts. Does anyone
have any experience with it?

Thanks a lot!

Rudi




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Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 15:50:26 -0500 (EST)
From: "Paul Shick, John Carroll University" <SHICK at JCVAXA.jcu.edu>
Subject: Summary of responses on Nottingham lag times



Hello all,

	I received many responses to my questions about 
difficulties with long lag times with Danstar Nottingham
yeast.  My thanks to all who replied.  I promised several
people that I'd post a summary of responses.  Here it is,
at last.

	First, several responders suggested that my problems
this time were due to my rehydration procedure: I rehydrated 
the yeast in the carboys, rather than in a separate beaker.
Some suggested (and I agree) that the thermal mass of the carboys
cooled things down to substantially below the usual 100F 
temperature.

	Several others (including our resident Lallemand rep,
Rob Moline,) suggested that I underpitched more than I thought,
given the 1.060 OG of this wort.  The 7-10g per 5 gallon figure
usually quoted is calculated for 1.040 worts, and one should
increase appropriately with heavier worts.

	Finally, several suggested that the temperature of 60F
in the basewent was too cool for starting the yeast.

	My guess is that a combination of all three factors
was to blame, and I plan to remedy all three for next time.

	I received also several very interesting suggestions
for dealing with dried yeast in general and Danstar in particular.
One method proposed was a very clever approach to the mechanics
of rehydration/attemperation, where the yeast are rehydrated during
the mash; a pint or so of first runnings is put aside and boiled,
then added to the yeast when at 85F or so; then the yeast has the
entire boil/cooling period to get a healthy start before pitching.
A second suggestion, backed by experimental data, was to aerate
the wort thoroughly at pitching; then, if fermentation has not
started at that point, aerate again at 6-8 hrs after pitching.  I've
never tried this technique, but I plan to try it next time I use
Danstar yeast. (I'm planning a serious English ale using Windsor
yeast next week, to break in a new SS fermentor -- thanks to Santa
and my wonderful wife.)

	Again, my thanks to all who responded.  I'm looking forward
to trying these ideas soon.

			Paul Shick
			Basement brewing in Cleveland Heights, OH

 


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Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 16:02:22 -0500 (EST)
From: "Paul Shick, John Carroll University" <SHICK at JCVAXA.jcu.edu>
Subject: Protz and Wheeler book


Hello all,

	Ernie Baker asks for a quick review of the Protz and 
Wheeler book, "Brew Your Own British Real Ale at Home."  Ernie,
I have an earlier edition of the book, which I like a lot.  The
information on dozens of different bitters (and other styles) is
really quite valuable, at least for me.  However, I've never 
really followed a recipe from the book, for several reasons:
	1.  Wheeler apparently gets very low extraction
		from his mash and very little utilization 
		from his hops.  His amounts are notoriously
		generous.
	2.  Wheeler almost never recommends a particular yeast,
		even when describing a beer where the actual
		brewer's yeast is readily commercially available.
		You just can't get very close to a certain beer's
		taste without an appropriate yeast.
	3.  Once you read Protz's descriptions of some of the
		beers, you can put together your own recipe
		pretty easily.
	4.  Wheeler is very steeped in English homebrewing 
		technique, which has more supply/equipment
		difficulties to surmount than its American 
		counterpart.  (Was that diplomatic enough?)

Again, I like the book a lot.  Previous posters have claimed that
they've brewed from Wheeler's recipes with great success.  

	You might look at Protz and Wheeler's other book: "Brew
Classic European Beers at Home."  It has a very wide variety of
styles and seems much more attuned to American brewing techniques
than the other volume.  The same efficiency/utilization warnings
apply, though.


			Paul Shick
			Cleveland Heights OH






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Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 14:54:20 -0800
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: LOGIC Inc Still Here

In response to Harold Dowda's note, I just wanted to mention that LOGIC,
Inc. (manufacturer of One Step and Straight-A) is still around.  I
contacted Harold directly, but I thought that folks here might be thrown
into a panic thinking that we weren't still in business.  ;-)

Incidentally, if you want to drop us a line, don't do it through the
sample request-- I hardly look at that before sending it on to the guys
who do the samples.

Rick Theiner
LOGIC, Inc.
http://www.ecologiccleansers.com





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Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 15:47:35 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: 3 Keg Brew System - Advice Wanted

From: "Elizabeth Smith 14" <Gahboo at pdq.net>

Ken Smith asks:

>1.)    First, is this whole business of indirect heating worth it?

Absolutely, you can control your temps more accurately than guessing about
volume temperatures and mixing calculations.  With indirect heating of the
wort you will not get scorching if the mash happens to stick and flow
suddenly stops.  This can be a problem with heating in a RIMS chamber with
direct element contact;.

>2.)    Should I purge the copper piping with CO2 before each brewing
>session?  I have never had HSA problems with my stovetop extract brews, but
>I fear that the pumps may expose me to HSA.

No.  At the start of your session, put in some water to the vessels, then
circulate at high speed and this will flush out all air bubbles and get the
pumps and plumbing primed for action later.  Then, let the pumps push almost
all the water out, but stop before you hear that sucking sound.

>3.)   How paranoid do I need to be about cleaning the piping after each
>brewing session.  I was planning to just run lots of water through the
>piping since it all ends up in the boil kettle anyhow.

That's about what I do.  A few times I circulated some TSP for a while, then
drained, flushed, and rinsed with water.  But I think just water is alright
if you do not let the insides dry out first.

>4.)  Should I lay up the piping, particularly the coil in the HLT, wet or
>dry?

Remember, if it freezes where you coil is stored, the coil can be ruined by
the water expansion inside.

>5.) ...Should I put the sum of all water additions planned for the boiling
water
>infusion method into the mash tun at the start and then just step it up by
>recirculation?

Yes, providing the planning was optimized for best mash results.  Some
infusions compromise water/grain ratio for the sake of temperature.  You do
not need to do this compromise.

You can get a look at my brewing rig at the URL below.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu
http://members.xoom.com/rlabor/



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Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 15:39:01 -0600
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Wacky Wisdom

From: The Holders <zymie at sprynet.com>
Subject: what a wacky, wacky man.

>Is it just me?

Of course!

>>I get a lot of other things done while mashing but have the sense to
>>check on it every 15 minutes or so.

>Well, in my non-"sense"-ical Rube Goldberg brewing operation, I have
sensors that check the mash and hot liquor temperatures many times every
second. I guess that all depends on what the meaning of "check" is
though.

No. You must return to the meaning of "sense".

Your approach assumes that power never fails, surges don't happen and electronic
gadgets only die on que.   The EZDictionary defines "sense" as never assuming
the above.

>How silly of me to think of timed rests in between temperature raises as
a "step mash".

No, again.  It is just silly to think that there is much difference between
sitting at a precise temp for a precise period of time and slowly passing
under,through  and passed it.

>All mashes that have non-linear temperature profiles will now be referred to as
"multiple jumpy mash thingies".

Just a minor variation on quantum mechanics.

>I also propose that anyone using a wort chiller have this process
labeled as "non JSP compliant".

Better yet.... just USELESS (r)

js

OF THE WEEK  http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm
HOME: Beer, Cheese, Astronomy, Videos  http://user.mc.net/arf



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Date: Tue, 28 Dec 1999 18:44:47 -0700
From: William Graham <geeks at att.net>
Subject: Oxygen Hardware

Zymurtistas -
	I traded a beatup old CO2 cylinder from a garage sale ( $5 ) for a nice
full cylinder crammed full of O2 ( $12 ). What a deal. ( Thanks, HBD,
for the advice ). I then purchased a studly looking dual gauge
regulator, and felt I was king of the world.
	Except that I can't attach the output of the regulator to the approx
1/4" ID tubing that attaches to the Liquid Bread diffuser stone. I went
down to Home Teapot to find some piece or pieces of hardware to connect
the two, but apparently O2 regulators have some special threading or
something. Hmmm. I now feel like the bonehead of the county.
	Please tell me I can connect these things without using baling wire and
duct tape.

	Ideas?

Bill 
	- looking at the lights of "The biggest single brewery plant in the
world, despite it's remote Rocky Mountain location in Golden, Colorado."
Michael Jackson, "The Simon and Schuster Pocket Guide to Beer", 1st
Edition, 1986
	Of course, I used to ride my bicycle to work in downtown Denver from
this remote Rocky Mountain location. ;)


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