---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  GM, French Wines and beers (Dave Burley)
  Co2, Gravity, Flames (PRS) - CPC" <PRS at NA2.US.ML.COM>
  Inconsistent carbonation, Kegging (Dave Burley)
  Rescuing Uncarbonated Barley Wine (venesms)
  New AHA Administrator (Paul Gatza)
  Microwaving to sterilize... ("John S Thompson")
  Subject: Feelings on early racki ("Darren Robey")
  Should I remove Fermentation scum? (Kenneth_Smith)
  Re: Tannins ("Stephen Alexander")
  Pete's Hand Grenade. ("Kris Hansen")
  AOB Board Reorganization (Paul Gatza)
  chill haze (Lou.Heavner)
  Ontario, California? (Paul Kensler)
  gullible is in the dictionary, Dave (AlannnnT)
  Bretish/Greman racking practice (RBoland)
  Kegging Pale Ale ("Sean Richens")
  re: tannic materials and sparging ("Doug Moyer")
  Oversparging (John Wilkinson)
  Insults (John Wilkinson)
  A source? (Joseph Kish)
  GM seeds (John Wilkinson)
  GM foods ("Stephen Alexander")
  Great equipment opportunity (Bruce & Amber Carpenter)
  Alt Yeast Search (Richard Foote)
  Wheat Beer Tannins/Carbo. Efficiency (AJ)
  Munich malt (Marc Sedam)


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:42:56 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: GM, French Wines and beers

Brewsters:

Page down if you are sick of these
non-beer topics.
- ------------------
Robin, this is also my last entry on
this subject of GM, I can see your
mind is made up that those big
corporations are out to get you
and facts don't make much difference.
I doubt you will believe it, but big
corporations aren't out to get 
you, nor is anyone else.

As far as cars versus buses go,
buses have few air pollution
controls on them. Check it out.
They also drive around empty
most of the time, as do trains.
Private cars move only when
and where they are needed and 
in the shortest possible time and
distance.

But, for others, I too have read the hype
about those poor cows, but I can find no
evidence that using a natural hormone
which the cow already makes causes it
any harm. And at least I have looked 
beyond the newspapers and
rumor media. I can guarantee that
if it reduces the useful productive
life of the cow, it for sure won't be
used by farmers.

As far as these GM potentially 
causing problems by crossbreeding
in nature it won't happen because
these plants are <sterile> as Robin
points out. The spin he uses,
however, ( I guess from other
groups), accuses the big
corporations of being greedy and
using this method of preventing the
farmer from reusing the seed. Of
course, this same situation has
prevailed for neary 50 years in
the agricultural industry already, as
hybrid corn seed must be
purchased every year. The
farmers happily buy it as a 
cost of doing business for 
the improved quality and
productivity of this product.

The only time entrance into nature 
could be a problem is, as was
postulated in that seamless
transition from Science Fiction
to Science Fantasy in Jurrasic Park,
 - the "virgin birth scenario" ( no fathers
needed)  to arouse fear in the viewer
that the dinosaurs would be back.
Guess it worked on some people.
These animals were not sterile, but
were all female in the movie. An
entirely different situation. And why
weren't they all male? No movie. 

Realistically, it is not a problem
as these ideas and philosophies
have been debated for more
than three decades in universities
around the world. I hate to see
Monsanto and others being vilified
( and sued) for being successful in
bringing to market marvelous new
products that will not require
pesticides,  will produce better
products for the consumer and
generally improve our lifestyle.
And, worse, for reasons that are highly
suspect from countries that have a
history of trashing their competitor's
successes.

Realize that these plants which do
not require pesticides are wonderful
in that they are pest specific. That
is it only kills the pest that eats the
plant in question, without harming 
other insects - unlike pesticide
applications. That's why the point is that
no Monarch Butterfly will be harmed by
Bt corn pollen, since it does not feed on it
and will never come into contact with GM
corn pollen under natural
circumstances, yet other pests will be
reduced according to their activity
level. Now isn't that wonderful!
Ask yourself why you haven't read
or heard about this aspect of GM.

Unfortunately, we are about to throw 
away all this wonderful stuff and
future promises of this technology
because of attitudes like Robin's
and those of other uninformed people
and those with their own agenda who
don't give a crap about you, but act 
like they do.
 .
I am really angry about this and you
should be too.

If my anger and passion causes me
to be abusive it is a mistake, since I try
to respect a well thought out argument
even when it is opposite to my opinion.
I am sorry,  Lou. I do appreciate your
comments. Thanks!
- ---------------------------------------
To set the record straight I did say
modern French wines are getting better.
I don't know which US wines are available 
in the UK today, so can't judge Nigel's
comments. But there are some pretty
good US wines in the market here.
And I suspect a better bargain, at 
least in this country.

Nigel, I lived in Wales in the 1960s
and 70s and believe me, the offerings
of French wine to the common man were
anything but of the quality available today.
I also toured France, tasted wine, drank
Vin Ordinaire and was always disappointed
when it was not as good as even California
jug wine. Even the French watered it down 
with a tablespoon of hot water. I do
not doubt that Chateau wines were much
better than US wines in the 60s. Things
have changed for the better across the
board.  I'm glad, but it took competition
to do it, not market control -  which was
my point.

If I were all alone in this opinion, well,
OK, but I'll bet if you pick up any discussion
on this subject you will find I am in agreement
with the experts in the field on this.
- ---------------------------------------
Regarding the comment on Biere de Garde.
It makes my point. Why do we discuss
German, Britsh, and Belgian beers, but
rarely, if ever, French beers?
- ----------------------------------------

Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:47:28 -0500 
From: "Santerre, Peter (PRS) - CPC" <PRS at NA2.US.ML.COM>
Subject: Co2, Gravity, Flames

Co2 Shipping:

I have a 5# Co2 cylinder that I use for my corny keg set up.
Well moving time has come (from a small studio apartment to
a 3 bedroom 2 bath house, I'm quite excited.)  My dilemma is how
to get my Co2 Cylinder to the new location.  The moving company
says they wont move it, and I /don't think/ I'm supposed to
ship it via UPS or whatever.  Does anyone have any experience
or suggestions on this subject?

On Tannins:

Everyone is speaking on the subject of tannins being leeched out
when the sparge gravity reaches 1.XXX.  My question is this:  How
are you measuring your run off for gravity?  Do you just redirect
the flow to your sample jar once in a while and take a reading or
what?  From what I'm reading it almost sounds like you all can
measure it constantly as the tun is being drained.

Flames:

Nice work guys.  I don't think I've seen so many blatant and well
constructed flames in quite a while.  I was thinking that maybe
we could set up a flames_request@hbd.org or something like that.
That way I could read the new list while I'm at work and be able
to laugh my ass off.  Is this possible Mr. Babcock?

Private emails are fine, especially if it is to flame me.


Peter Santerre
24 Square Foot Brewery
San Francisco


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:45:50 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Inconsistent carbonation, Kegging

Brewsters:

Chris has experienced inconsistent
carbonation using a bottling bucket. 

I suggest you make up your priming sugar
solution in a cup of boiling solution ( not
a cup of water). I uise a pyrex measuring
cup , put in the sugar, add water and boil.
A teaspoon of this in each bottle will
give you 48 bottles properly primed.
It will also take less time than a bottling
bucket. It may sound tedious, but it works
well and is fast. Takes me a couple of
minutes. Bottle directly from the carboy.

A bottling bucket improperly stirred will give
this problem of inconsistency. It is also
something else to clean and sanitize and
if your beer is flat, you can incorporate a
lot of oxygen as you transfer your beer into
it and especially if you stir well, as you must.
- ---------------------------------------
Dan asks about kegging technique
and about how much CO2 to blast
into the keg.

Be assured that blasting even an
unreasonable amount of  CO2 into
the keg  will not remove enough oxygen
to prevent staling , as gases mix. 

Here's how I do it and  use the
minimum amount of CO2: Fill the keg
with hot sanitary water and blow it out 
with CO2. That way you know
you have no oxygen in your keg.
As you fill the keg with beer, keep the
lid partially on the keg to reduce the
inflow of air. After filling, some
keggers pressurize and release
a few times to get additional flushing. 

If you are going to prime your beer
be sure to seal the o-ring by pressurising
the keg. Otherwise, it will never seal. 
- --------------------------------------
Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:47:56 -0500
From: venesms at NU.COM
Subject: Rescuing Uncarbonated Barley Wine

I want to enter a Barley Wine I bottled two years ago into a competition
 soon.  Unfortunately, the beer never carbonated for some odd reason.
Anyway, how can I get it carbonated in time for a March contest?  I've
been thinking of: 1) pouring a dozen or so bottles into a corny keg;
2) pumping up the CO2 real high (how high?); 3) chilling the corney keg
pretty cold (how cold?), 4) then carefully transferring the beer into bottles
with a racking wand; and 5) capping immediately.

What do you guys think?

Mike in Middletown, CT





Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 12:50:49 -0700
From: Paul Gatza <paulg at aob.org>
Subject: New AHA Administrator

Hi everyone. I'd like to welcome Gary Glass to our full-time staff as
AHA Administrator. Gary lives in Lafayette, Colorado and has been
homebrewing for several years there and in San Luis Obispo, California.
As a teaching assistant and research assistant at the University of
Colorado during his masters candidacy, Gary gained valuable database and
other computer experience and project experience. 

     Gary will be the lead staffperson for the Sanctioned Competition
Program, Big Brew, Teach a Friend to Homebrew Day and the Clubs Program.
Gary and I will coordinate the National Homebrew Competition together.
Gary's email is gary at aob.org and he can be reached by phone at (303)
447-0816 X 121. Drop him a line to let him know what's going on in your
neck of the bottle. 
- -- 
Paul Gatza
Director
American Homebrewers Association	(303) 447-0816 x 122
736 Pearl Street			(303) 447-2825 -- FAX
PO Box 1679				paulg at aob.org -- E-MAIL
Boulder, CO 80306-1679			info at aob.org -- AOB INFO
U.S.A.					http://www.beertown.org -- WEB


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:22:01 -0600
From: "John S Thompson" <jthomp6 at lsu.edu>
Subject: Microwaving to sterilize...

HBDers:

I have some petri dishes which I use for streaking out yeast. I was
wondering if a short blast in the microwave, say 5 to 10 seconds, would
sterilize a thin layer of wort/agar. If so, this would eliminate the need to
steam them. One could boil them in the microwave, but that gets pretty
messy...

John



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 08:22:24 +1000
From: "Darren Robey" <drobey at awb.com.au>
Subject: Subject: Feelings on early racki



Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 04:03:50 -0500
From: Calvin Perilloux <peril at compuserve.com>
Subject: Feelings on early racking

snippity snip

>>My usual procedure was to brew an all-grain batch after work,


Wow!!! Its a strictly saturday job for me. I couldnt even imagine starting
an all grain when i arrive home from work!




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 15:31:55 -0600
From: Kenneth_Smith at enron.com
Subject: Should I remove Fermentation scum?

Should I remove the scum that forms on top of ales during fermentation?  I
read stuff on both sides of the fence.  Some advocate using blowoff tubes
to let the stuff escape.  Others tell me to let it fall back into the beer
as it adds body.  What is the consensus here?  Thank you.

Ken Smith
Houston, TX



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:37:17 -0500
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Tannins

In #3200 Micah Millspaw stated in part:
MM>It is very difficult to extract tannins from the grain hulls in a mash.
Note that the issue is whether "tannins" are extracted from malt vs hops.

My response included:
SA> Anyone who has ever sparged down below SG=1.010
SA> and tasted the result knows that the stuff tastes like sweet
SA> watery tea.  The tea-like flavors are the tannoids -
SA> not a momily.  The shocker is that about 70% of the total
SA> wort tannoids appear in the first runnings.  [...]
SA> Tannoids levels fall (not rise) in later runnings - tho' they
SA>  don't fall off as fast as sugar levels.
followed by more detailed comments on phenolic levels in runoff,
wort and beer including a JIB reference.

Paul Niebergall has repeatedly objected to the above post, tho' his
objections are largely groundless and based on a poor reading.  To
avoid repetition I will address Pauls repeated objections each only once.

1/ --
PN>This flavor in no way proves or disproves
PN>the presence of tannins [...]
(and variations)
Paul further comments that the "evidence" is "anecdotal" and that the
"weak link" of using only flavor of run-off is "unscientific" and similar
objection.

The kitchen experiment suggested above was NEVER presented as sole
evidence of  tannoids extracted from malt in wort.  There is proof
enough of that in the paper I referenced (JIB v85, 23-25) and dozens more
like it. Why would *anyone* think that I depended on this handy  'kitchen
experiment" as "proof" without examining the citation ?

If I were to state that lemon is more acidic than banana, cite a peer
reviewed paper that included critical measurements and also
noted that you can taste the difference - then what rational reader would
claim a "lack of proof" without reviewing the paper ?

To argue the other point, on which my case does not depend ...
<<
the literature provides convincing proof that humans can taste both simple
phenolic and tannoid additions to beer and wort, and that in excess they
are negative flavors.

The reference paper (JIB v85,23-25) gives triangle tests of beer with
various phenolic treatments, as do:
JIB v90 181-187
JIB v90 67-72
JIB v90 24-32
'Food Phenolics', Technomic Press, chapter 5
JIB 91 302-305

Several of the above compare both analytically and by taste the results of
otherwise identical beers made with normal and ANT-13
(pro-anthocyandin/tannoid free barley).  And yes there are differences in
astringency at a high level of statistical significance.

** As an aside the ANT-13 mutant barley has been crossed and there are some
large scale field tests underway - perhaps relevant to the GMO
thread.

Most directly a study by Kirin Brewing in which wort tannoids are removed by
polyamide filtration, results in loss of phenolic (tea-like) flavors.
Results appear in  an ACS symposium 115, 1979.
>>


2/ --
Paul also misread several statements claiming that I was offering
tasting as proof of higher phenolic content in late runnings.

PN> Mr. Alexander [...] prefaced his position by offering purely
PN> anecdotal evidence that tannins are a problem when sparging
PN> with a low gravity  runoff.
 ..or ..
PN>The evidence is based solely on his ability to detect what is
PN>perceived as tannins just by tasting the dilute runoff.
or
PN>So, where is all the scientific evidence that
PN> lautering below 1.010 leaches tannins

First - an accurate reading is that I only said that tannoids CAN be
tasted in final runnings, not that they are a problem, nor that they
aren't present in other fractions.  I also said  that later runnings
contain a higher phenolic:SG ratio tho LESS phenolics *but* my
discussion re M.Millspaw's position was NOT based on this in
any way. The point was that malt phenolics can be substantially
extracted (and as an aside tasted prominantly in later runnings).

Again, to prove the point tho' it is not germain to my original argument,
<<
That phenolic levels rise in late runnings is evidenced in:
Louis Bonham's reference,
'Brewing', Lewis & Young (Chapman & Hall 1996),
also see the same basic points made in ...
M&BS pp 273 (graph&text)
JIB v58 408-
'Beer: The Art & Science of Brewing' by C.Bamforth
    (contains a note to this effect)
'Technology of Malting and Brewing', Kunze, pp 226 makes the following
statement:
"Toward the end of sparging increasing amounts of undesirable materials
(polyphenols and bitter substances from the husks, silicic acid, etc) pass
into solution.  If one wished to produce high quality beer, the spent grains
must not be extracted too much, i.e. not sparged too long".
 -- or for numerical results see,
'Extraction of Beer Polyphenols and Assay by HPLC', JIB v86, pp15
and .
EBC XVI, p415.
There is another very direct JIB reference that I can't find at the moment.

And that beer tannoids in excess detract from taste - see the tasting
references listed in 1/ above; several address this or general
comments in any brewing textbook.
>>

3/ --
PN> [lack of] evidence that tannins are a problem
or
PN>What I do object to, however;  is people who claim
PN>that [leeched tannin] has a negative
PN>impact on the final quality of home brew.
or
PN>So, where is all the scientific evidence that lautering below
PN>1.010 leaches tannins that have a negative impact [...]

I NEVER stated that wort tannins(tannoids) had a nagative impact on beer!!
I actually said that tannins extracted from wort were NOT a problem:
SA> In a sense tannoids in the unboiled wort are not a
SA> real issue anyway since they are virtually all
SA> (>97% in one study) eliminated [...]

My position is that tannins are largely removed with break material, but
that *tanninogens*, *GIVEN ADDITIONAL CONDITIONS*, can develop into
astringent tannins after the boil.  The extraction of tannins and
tanninogens occurs under nearly the same conditions so ...

==============

If I may put the shoe on the other foot ...

PN>Still a momily, in my book.
The supposed momily in M.Millspaw's post was that malt tannins can
be substantiallty extracted.  This momily is disputed by every study I
have read on the matter.  What is your support for this viewpoint
Paul ?

PN>The problem is that dilute wort looks and tastes very much like
PN> watery sweet tea, regardless of the tannin content, [...]
Another anecdote.  Many papers (see above) demonstrate that
different tannin levels are distinguishable.  Got any "proof" Paul ?
Actually this would be a good triangle test to present at my club.

 -S





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Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 15:42:28 -0600
From: "Kris Hansen" <HanseKW at dhfs.state.wi.us>
Subject: Pete's Hand Grenade.


Pete threw a hand grenade on the table that seems to have attracted
some attention.  Sorry guys, but I couldn't stop myself from posting. 
First off, Kudos to Robin Griller and Ken Schramm for hitting the nail
on the head (tail on the donkey?)  I couldn't agree with you more. 
Although I doubt that Robin could be feeling too much like a luddite
at the computer posting to this incredibly great forum!  I just wanted
to add my 2 cents.  I do my best to avoid Genetically Modified foods
and try to keep my ingredients as natural as I can.  Not for fear of
growing a third arm (which could actually come in "handy") or that I
might die from consuming it.  But more for financial and social
reasons.  Dave stated that:

>I believe the major GM issue is one of market protection. Just as
the atomic
>power issue is one of big coal and oil pulling the wool over this
country's eyes
>so they can continue to pollute, GM opposition is an issue
developed
>largely by the agricultural interests, especially in France, to
protect their markets
>from superior, patented USagricultural products. 

He had me at first and then lost me completely.  I believe that he's
right about the issue being "market protection", but I think he's
looking at it the wrong way.  things are being genetically modified
not just for the altruistic good of better crops, but also to protect
the markets of US corporate agribiz.  It all comes down to the
"patented US agricultural products" Dave mentioned.  The USDA and
the Delta and Pine Land Company announced joint development and
receipt of US patent #5,723,765 new biotechnology benignly called
"Control of Plant Gene Expression" in early March, 1998.  The patent
permits owners and licensees to create sterile seeds by selectively
programming a plant's DNA to kill its own embryos and thereby prevent
sprouting. The patent applies to seeds of all species which, when
saved by farmers after harvest, will not grow. 20-30% of US soybean
crops are saved seeds.  Pea pods, tomatoes, peppers, heads of wheat
and ears of corn will essentially become seed morgues.  Monsanto later
bought Delta and Pine and now will be applying this technology to
insure that farmers can't stock up on their corn, etc. and must buy
EVERY year from them (only) for their crops.  As soon as they have a
majority of farmers stuck in this system and unable to use saved
seeds, they will inevitably raise their prices and we will all be
paying much more for our genetically better (and incredibly
homogenetic) foods.  Even beyond the terminator patent, there are
other modifications being planned including traitor technology.  This
operates by taking certain traits (germination, flavor, nutrition) and
making sure they wouldn't develop unless the company's proprietary
chemicals are sprayed upon the plant, triggering little on/off
switches in the governing genes.  Great! more chemical spraying!  BTW,
there are other problems:   U of Cornell researchers have announced
that genetically engineered Bt corn killed Monarch butterfly larvae
and researchers in Switzerland and Scotland have reported that
ladybugs and green lacewigs (both pest eaters) appear to have shorter
life spans on a diet of Bt-infected bugs. I don't think that we need
to jump on this as quick as we can, with all the evidence we should
probably just slow down a bit and look at some more of the possible
ecological effects of all of this.  I just don't want to feel like I
have been contributing to these breakthroughs for the seed companies
and try to avoid buying their products.  Like French beer for Dave, it
just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  I'm all for science, but that
doesn't mean that I think it's all going to be good for me!  Sorry to
take up the bandwidth, I better get back to brewing.  

 -Kris





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Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 15:07:59 -0700
From: Paul Gatza <paulg at aob.org>
Subject: AOB Board Reorganization

Hi everyone. Here is the latest press release on changes here at the
AOB. Currently the AHA Board of Advisors has one seat on the AOB Board.
Starting in July, the AHA Board will have three, with a goal of four by
the end of 2001. In 1998 the AHA Board amended its bylaws to have new
board seats filled by election of the general membership, with the slate
of candidates coming from nominations by the board or staff. Rob Moline
was elected to the board in 1999 as the first elected member. I'll be
working with the board on the developing the new slate of candidates for
an election prior to the AHA National Homebrewers Conference in Livonia,
Michigan on June 22 to 24. Election information will be provided in the
May/June Zymurgy. AHA members interested in running for an AHA Board of
Advisors slot should contact an AHA staffperson or AHA Board member to
discuss consideration for inclusion on the slate of candidates.  

AOB BOARD OF DIRECTORS APPROVES REORGANIZATION
Divisional Representation Imminent

Boulder, CO 1.5.2000  The Board of Directors of the Association of
Brewers (AOB) recently approved a plan to incorporate the four
divisional Boards of Advisors for the Institute for Brewing Studies
(IBS), the American Homebrewers Association (AHA), Brewing Matters (BM),
and Brewers Publications (BP) into the AOB Board of Directors. The
resolution from the Board of Directors reads as follows, "The board of
directors approves the reorganization of the board with the goal to
install board of advisor designates by July 31, 2000 to three members
each from IBS, AHA, and BM board of advisors, and one member of the BP
board of advisors." "This is a landmark point in the continuing
evolution of the Association of Brewers. Few industries have the breadth
and depth of experience that the craft brewing industry enjoys. By
tapping into this wealth of creative experience, the AOB will be able to
dramatically improve their services to the industry", states John
Hickenlooper, owner of Wynkoop Brewing Company and AOB board member.

The new structure will allow each division to have decision making power
for the future of the association and their respective divisions. "The
reorganization of the AOB Board to include direct representation of our
members and expert professionals is a logical stage in the evolution of
our 21 year old Association", says Charlie Papazian, the AOB president.
Each divisional board of advisors will continue to function as separate
entities from the AOB Board of Directors. This decision has been
embraced by both AHA and IBS members. "I feel that there is a commitment
from Charlie and the staff to move all of the divisions of the AOB
forward and to engage in meaningful action and representation. The
brewers are excited to have a say in the issues and promotions affecting
our industry", states Larry Bell, owner of Kalamazoo Brewing Company.
Charlie Olchowski, the AHA Board of Advisors chair, adds "The
homebrewing hobby remains viable and still serves as the proving ground
for many future brewers. This a monumental new relationship to have
homebrewers sit by the side of the working professionals of the brewing
community, and together forging ahead with the agenda of the AOB."
- -- 
Paul Gatza
Director
American Homebrewers Association	(303) 447-0816 x 122
736 Pearl Street			(303) 447-2825 -- FAX
PO Box 1679				paulg at aob.org -- E-MAIL
Boulder, CO 80306-1679			info at aob.org -- AOB INFO
U.S.A.					http://www.beertown.org -- WEB


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Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 16:43:21 -0600
From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com
Subject: chill haze

     I brewed a version of Rob Moline's award winning barleywine last
     spring and layed it up to celebrate the Y2K rollover.  There was
     nothing particularly unusual about the way I brewed it.  I kept it in
     a closet at room temperature and occasionally put a bottle in the
     fridge to sample.  Not really any serious chill haze was ever evident.
     the last one I tried was around September.  In around October, I put a
     sixpack in the fridge in case I decided to try and enter them in any
     future contests and to compare with unrefrigerated bottles for
     oxidation/stability.  A couple weeks before New Years, I put a case in
     the fridge.  On New Years Eve, I opened the first bottle and it looked
     more like fresh unfiltered apple cider than beer.  I looked at the
     other bottles and they were all cloudy.  No real flavor problems,
     carbonation was good, and the haze went away as the beer warmed up.  I
     looked at the bottles which had been refrigerated since October and
     they were clear except for the bottom inch or so which was very
     cloudy.  Can anybody guess what may be going on here?  I have never
     made a barleywine before and generally don't make beers over OG 1.055.
     However, I recently made a Duvel clone which has almost no chill haze
     and it was about the same strength, but fortified with candy sugar and
     less hoppy.  I used Nottingham on the BW and added an additional
     package (properly rehydrated) at bottling to ensure complete
     conditioning.  I'd appreciate any suggestions, because I'm about to
     bottle a wee heavy that is also about as strong as the BW and all malt
     and I'd like to avoid the chill haze if possible.  I just don't have
     enough refrigerated space to knock all the haze out of these beers or
     the patience to wait for gravity to do its thing.

     Cheers!

     Lou Heavner - Austin, TX


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Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:06:48 -0600 
From: Paul Kensler <Paul.Kensler at cyberstar.com>
Subject: Ontario, California?

I will be in Ontario, California for business next week - any brewpub /
brewery recommendations?  Any must-sees or must-avoids?  I will be staying
at a hotel with no rental car, so it needs to be in or around the suburb of
Ontario...  

Any LA-area HBD'ers available to meet over a pint on Friday night, January
14?


Paul Kensler
Lansing, MI




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Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 19:48:19 EST
From: AlannnnT at aol.com
Subject: gullible is in the dictionary, Dave

Dave Burley writes, 
> Did you know the word "gullible" is not
>  in the dictionary?
>  Keep on Brewin'
>  >  Dave Burley

Well Dave, the Miraim Webster Dictionary on line says:

gull*ible also gull*able (adjective)
First appeared 1818
 : easily duped or cheated
 -- gull*ibil*i*ty (noun)
 -- gull*ibly (adverb)

So Dave, I guess that depends on your definition of a dictionary.

Alan Talman


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Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:29:49 EST
From: RBoland at aol.com
Subject: Bretish/Greman racking practice

Jeff Renner describes the British practice of  "dropping" beer in which 
racking is done with vigorous aeration, which some yeasts require, at high 
kraeusen. He suggests that this is practiced in some German breweries.  I can 
confirm that something like it is done, and also add that it is a new 
practice.  None of the breweries I visited two years ago did it, but all 
visited this past November were doing it.

As the Ayinger brewery does it, hot break is removed in a hot wort whirlpool 
and the work passes through a chiller.  Yeast is added and the cooled pitched 
wort is sent to an aeration tank.  In this tank, a large quantity of air is 
bubbled through the wort.  Cold break is lifted to the top of the tank by the 
bubbles and is removed.  The aerated wort is then sent to the fermenters.  
The big problem with it is yield; a significant portion of the beer goes out 
with the cold break.

See you at MCAB
Bob Boland, St. Louis MO


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Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 20:36:34 -0600
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: Kegging Pale Ale

Dan Michael has a couple of choices [NOT a false dichotomy :-)] - either
prime the keg OR force carbonate it.  Well, you could go half and half, but
why double your effort?

If you prime (remember to use only about 1/4 cup glucose), putting 5-10 psi
from the bottle can help prevent leaks by seating the O-rings.  If you want
"Bitter", you will want to vent the keg a few times as the beer comes into
condition, otherwise it will have the higher carbonation of a Pale Ale.

Whatever you do to serve, it's a good idea to keep 5-10 psi (at serving
temperature) to keep the wee beasties out and the bubbles in.  If you're
using a "picnic tap" to serve, dump nearly all the pressure, serve with
just 1-2 psi, choke the tap to put a head on it, and remember to put the
pressure back up to 5-10 for the night.

Re. the fittings - do you mean the quick-disconnects?  If so, you should
lubricate the O-rings to reduce friction.  There's "keg-lube", ask your
local pub where they get it, or I suppose K-Y would do.  Don't tell your
friends if you want them to taste your beer! 

If it's the stainless-stainless threads that are difficult, be really
careful - irreparable damage is so easy.  If you can get it (no idea where
 - plumbing supply houses I suppose) look for FOOD GRADE Teflon grease.  Put
a TINY amount on the threads before putting the fittings back on.

email me if you need more detail

Cheers!
Sean



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Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2000 23:19:54 -0500
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: tannic materials and sparging

Brewers,

Louis Bonham <lkbonham at hbd.org> writes:

"However, it is pretty well established that,
relative to wort gravity levels, the harder you sparge, the
more tannic materials (as well as fatty acids and mineral
compounds) you'll get."

With respect to Mr. Bonham's extensive knowledge and contributions to this
and other forums, I must say, "pbbbt". Who cares what the levels of tannins
(whatever) are relative to the gravity? The only thing that matters is the
total level into the kettle. What I would like to know is (assuming I sparge
below 1.010) how much will my total tannin levels increase? Obviously, that
is dependent on volumes and other factors, but surely some type of useful
experiment could show that for some "representative" batches. The
information that Mr. Bonham quoted, while sufficiently authoritative to cow
us, is irrelevant. Until I see some meaningful data, I'm not going to stress
about it.

Brew on!

Doug Moyer
Salem, VA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity



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Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 23:13:10 -0600
From: John Wilkinson <jandjwilkins at earthlink.net>
Subject: Oversparging

Paul N. was taken to task for saying all bitter wort tastes like like
unsweetened tea.  I have found that to be true with my brews also.  My
last batch the last runnings were 1.018 and my water pH is < 7.0 so I
didn't worry about tannin extraction.  I tasted the sample I drew for
O.G. check and it tasted, to me, like unsweetened tea.  I think Jeff R.
may be on to something when he points out that sweetened tea tastes less
of tannin and perhaps earlier runnings have this taste masked by the
sugars.  My finished beers don't taste astringent to me and I have
always attributed the unsweetened tea taste of the bitter wort to the
hops.  At any rate, for me the taste test doesn't indicate anything.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas


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Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 23:42:17 -0600
From: John Wilkinson <jandjwilkins at earthlink.net>
Subject: Insults

I, for one, did not find Dave B.'s comments about GM seeds insulting and
don't see how any reasonable person could.  How about we get back to
brewing and leave the environmentalist and other political discussions
to the proper forum.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas


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Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2000 22:15:25 -0800
From: Joseph Kish <jjkish at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: A source?

 So, where is a good place to buy a Valley Mill?
   What's the price?
      Joe Kish


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Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 00:17:46 -0600
From: John Wilkinson <jandjwilkins at earthlink.net>
Subject: GM seeds

"scott" <windsurf at bossig.com> (wherever he is) wrote:
  
>As far as genetically modified seeds, yes, we have been modifying our
>food for eons.  However, it does start to concern me when science would 
>have us believe they have mastered the science of farming.  "Roundup
>Ready" seeds (not affected by insecticide spray)are already here.
  
If I am not mistaken, Roundup is a herbicide.  I don't think I see the
point either way.
 
And:

>Many organic minded people stock and trade vegetable/fruit seeds that
>have linages from hundreds of years back.  They don't trust the same
>folks that gave us DDT.

DDT saved millions of people on this earth from starvation and, I
believe, was banned in the U.S. due to the possibility that it might be
affecting the bird population from thinning of their shells.  What is
more important, birds or people?  At least the organic types can make
their decision and I can make mine, if the government lets me.

And:

>Luckily, farmers are getting the message REAL quick.  Europe and Asia
>by and large are refusing to buy U.S. grain that has been genetically
>modified.  In a CBS segment I saw, farmers have GM seed in stock, but
>are definitely leaning towards going non GM if that's what the market
>desires.

I suspect many European restrictions on U.S. food exports are more
rooted in protectionism than in alarm over GM seeds.  The Europeans,
already with a lower standard of living than ours, pay more for their
food as a result.  I prefer the freer market in the U.S.  I would rather
make the choice myself rather than have the government make it for me.
I think that is the best thing about the free market,  it  lets
individuals make their own decisions rather than have them made by the
government which, at best, is ruled by a majority and usually by small
groups.  If 51% of the electorate wish something, slavery, tariffs,
whatever, they could impose it on the remaining 49% in a true democracy.
Another plus for our constitutional government which tries to protect
the minority from the majority.  Any decision which can be left to the
individual should be.  That is freedom, even more important than
democracy, which is just an attempt to arrive at freedom.


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Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2000 06:44:34 -0500
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: GM foods

I think I've lost sight of the purpose for GM foods aside from the 'march of
progress' .  The Monsanto products are herbicide resistant, so we can
effectively prevent other plants species from occupying ag land.  Other GMO
that I read of will expand the growing region or season or be resistant to
infestation(use) by species of bacteria, fungi or insects.

When my father was born the human population was under 2 billion, now it is
6+B, and projecting current growth gives 14.4B by 2050.

Clearly we are trading other species for added human population. We could
choose to limit population or alternatively we could do as our yeast and
grow till the limits are reached and flocculate.

 -S




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Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 06:15:06 -0600
From: Bruce & Amber Carpenter <alaconn at arkansas.net>
Subject: Great equipment opportunity

Greetings,

I saw a great opportunity on EBay to snag some equipment for someone in the
Columbus, OH area.

Description: Everything you need to make and serve draft beer at home.
Refrigerator with tap through door, glass carboy, plastic fermenter, two
5-gal cornelius kegs, CO2 tank, regulator, hoses, valves, capper, conversion
ket for 1/2 barrells and more. Will not split up equipment. Buyer arranges
freight or pick-up. I highly recommend a local buyer with a pick up truck.

See the link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=231265651

Bruce 


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Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 08:30:07 -0500
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Alt Yeast Search

Jeremy Bergsman writes:


>Head Start AKA Aeonbrau (sp?) was a homebrewer's yeast supplier run by Dr.
>Brian Nummer.  I really like the Alt yeast they sold.  Unfortunately, I just
>went to my freezer box and my master vial is missing!  Yesterday I threw out
>the last plate from 3/99.  Ouch!  If anyone has this yeast stored somewhere
>I'd be very grateful for 1 or more cells sent my way.  Name your price.  A
>contact for Brian Nummer would be appreciated too, just in case he can be
>convinced to crack the freezer for an old customer.
 - -- 
>Jeremy Bergsman
>jeremybb at stanford.edu

Dr. Brian Nummer is part owner and head brewer at an Athens, GA brew pub
called Athens Brewing.  The number there is 706-549-0027.  Good luck in
your yeast hunting.  Hope you bag your limit.


Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing Co.
Murrayville, GA

P.S. Who is Jeff Renner and where is his domicile?




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Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 14:01:43 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Wheat Beer Tannins/Carbo. Efficiency

Pat reports astringent wheat beer. Wheat beers are less likely than most
to have high tannin levels from husks as they have typically less than
half the husk material in their grists. As I've reported recently my
decocted beers range from 400 - 1200 mg/L polyphenols, wheras my last
two wheat beers, also decocted measured 142 and 143 respectively.
Furthermore, the high protein levels should supply lots of stuff for
them to complex and precipitate with. Nevertheless I'll volunteer to be
the "scientist nearby capable of analyzing the slop to see whether there
is a
bounty of tannins in the beer" if you can tolerate loose definition of
"scientist" and "nearby". I'm going to be off on travel for the rest of
the month but will have e-mail. Write to arrange the transfer if you
want me to do this.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * *

Alan Meeker wrote that carbs yield 3.9 cal/ g in the calorimeter and 3.8
kCal/g in the brewer. The 3.8 number is very close to the 686 kcal/mole
value published in biochem books for the change in Gibbs energy when
glucose is burned to water and CO2. But the value retained in the ATP
formed during respiration is only 38% of this or 263 kcal/mole
equivalent to 1.45 kcal/g. Typo?
- --
A. J. deLange
Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.




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Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 09:06:11 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: Munich malt

I recently made a bock and a Vienna lager using the
no-sparge technique.  The grain bill was half pilsner malt
and half DWC Munich malt.  Mash schedule was my normal 40C
(15min)-50C (30min)-65C (30min).  Both were pitched with dry
lager yeast.  The gravities of both finished high.  So high,
in fact, that I got a quart of actively fermenting lager
yeast from a local brewpub and pitched in each carboy to
knock the gravity down.  It only brought the gravity down an
extra .002 SG points.  All signs point to the Munich malt,
as I've made all pilsner malt German pilsners and maibocks
with acceptable final gravities.  Just one data point that
suggests use of a large amount of munich malt may give you
FG's slightly higher than expected.

- --
Marc Sedam
Technology Development Associate
Office of Technology Development
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
308 Bynum Hall; CB# 4105
Chapel Hill, NC  27599-4105

919.966.3929  (phone)
919.962.0646  (fax)
http://www.research.unc.edu/otd




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---