---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: how do you measure the last runnings? ("Houseman, David L")
  Drinking and brewing. ("Devon Williams")
  Wooden Bung Removal (cdwood)
  re: makin' hot sauce (Mark Tumarkin)
  cheap kegs for boilers (hal)
  Wyeast 2278 Czech Pils (bkhegemann)
  hot water heater for hot liquor tank (Tombrau)
  Propylene Glycol ("Sean Richens")
  RIMS elements (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Please Don't Ask me Dave ("Phil & Jill Yates")
   (Tony Barnsley)
  Handling - Schmidling style ("Donald D. Lake")
  Re: Sears Zone ("Brian Dixon")
  400+ year old beers, available in the US (Mark Bunster)
  Re:Capping Twist-off Bottles/Low extraction (MaltHound)
  CounterPhil (Dan Listermann)
  Re: Lager Brewers: Request for critique and tips (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Capping Twist-off Bottles (Jeff Renner)
  blow-off scum ("Alan Meeker")
  No-Sparge Tannins ("Paul Niebergall")
  Pucker Power! How Many Lemons? ("Lynn & Mike Key")
  How much of an OG is Unfermentable? ("H. Dowda")
  Thanks for the suggestions ("Russ Hobaugh")
  Guinness Bubbles ("Brauner, Shane")
  line length ("Paul Niebergall")
  Loss of wort due to hops (R.)" <rhampo at ford.com>
  mash efficiency (Marc Sedam)
  mash efficiency, part deux (Marc Sedam)
  Re: Microwaving to sterilize ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Re:  Pewter, lead, and care instructions ("Timmons, Frank")
  Re: Shipping and Handling (Spencer W Thomas)
  Re: Help needed on All Grain ("Nigel Porter")
  Plus shipping and handling (Some Guy)
  Re: Poor All-Grain Extraction ("Patrick Flahie")
  sanitizers (ALABREW)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:47:05 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Re: how do you measure the last runnings?

Jeff says "I take a sample and stop the flow for
the few minutes it takes me to cool the sample in a cold water bath or a
convenient snowbank.  Takes about 4-5 minutes."

Using some very small diameter copper tubing from the hardware store (maybe
3/16? OD) I made a small immersion chiller for a small pan to cool samples
quickly for testing.  Just connect to a quick disconnect to a hose that you
probably have handy for cooling later anyway.  Coiled it flat so that it is
covered by the volume of a hydrometer.  Works like a champ.

Dave Houseman  


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Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 15:50:09 EST
From: "Devon Williams" <dawg_01 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Drinking and brewing.

Calvin Perilloux wrote:

<This will sound blasphemous, but I also found that if I didn't
drink any homebrew (or any brew) while brewing, it seemed to
speed things up.   I'd estimate I need to add about 15-20 minutes
for each beer I drank during the session.  (Relax and don't worry
do not apply to mid-week mashing sessions.)>

I totally agree with you about the cost of drinking while brewing on my 
overall brewing time.  My brother and I usually begin brewing around noon, 
and the consumption usually begins at about 12:01... We were brewing for 
about 6+ hours when doing this.

For one recent brew session, we began at about 8am.  Not wanting to appear 
too glutinous, we drank coffee instead of homebrew.  Wow!  we were finished 
and cleaning up in less than five hours!!!!  It's amazing what a clear head 
will do for you!

Devon

Devon Williams
Beer Belly Brothers Brewing
Watkinsville, GA, USA

  ooooo
  |..oo=|
  |...o |
  |...| |
  |...|=|
  |___|

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com



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Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 16:06:37 -0500
From: cdwood at lexmark.com
Subject: Wooden Bung Removal

Hey all,

I got given to me a 1/4 keg with a wooden bung in the side.
How is the best way to get it out and where can I get a new bung?



Thanks & Happy Brew Year!!
Curt
Member of BOCK (Brewers of Central Kentucky)
Just a long drive down I-75 from Jeff Renner




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Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:27:39 -0500
From: Mark Tumarkin <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: makin' hot sauce

Brett Morrow writes:
>Has anyone here tried making hot sauce?  Any info would be helpful--it
seems very
>straight forward, but if someone has tried it and has any suggestions,
I'm all ears!

Has anyone tried making hot sauce? You didn't expect a no answer from
this crowd, did you? And you say any info would be helpful, and ask for
suggestions - well, you need to narrow it down a bit. Start with what
kind of hot sauce you want to make, there's a world of different styles.
A typical Louisiana tabasco sauce? Take 2-3 lbs cayennes & tobasco
chiles, chop finely, combine with 3-4 cups of white vinegar in a
non-reactive pot heat till just below boiling, hold at this temp for 5
minutes or so, add 2 teaspoons of salt and purree in a blender till
finely chopped. Pour through a strainer, bottle, and age for 3 weeks to
3 years.

Or maybe your taste runs to Mexican salsas - take 5 or 6 large ripe
tomatoes, a couple of large garlic cloves, a large red onion, a few big
sprigs of fresh cilantro, an avocado or two, a little salt & pepper to
taste, maybe a tablespoon of olive oil, a few teaspoons of fresh lime
juice, and a bunch of peppers - try jalapenos and habaneros, maybe some
serranos, finely chop everything and mix in a bowl, eat immediately.

Or maybe you want to try some of the less known styles from around the
world - an African pili pili, or a blistering Thai sauce, or, or, or???
Depends on what you want.

But the best hot sauces (or at least my favorites) are the Caribbean
style sauces, rich with tropical fruits, rum, and all the heat of the
sub-tropical sun. Try this one, I call it Apocalypso.

Start with 15 or 20 yellow-orange scotch bonnets (an Island variant of
the Habanero, or just use Habs if you can't get Scotch Bonnets - it'll
be same same)
5 or 6 hot red peppers - try jalapenos, thais, bird peppers, etc
1 cup yellow onion
2 cups mango or papaya
3-4 garlic cloves
1/2 piece fresh ginger root
2 teaspoons ground dry mustard
2 tablespoons fresh lime juice
1 cup white vinegar
1/4 cup medium dark island rum

Stem & seed the peppers, remember most of the heat is in the seeds and
inner membranes so use just seeds as desired for heat level. No, forget
I said that, just throw away the stems and use the rest - you did say
you wanted hot sauce, didn't you? Combine liquid ingredients in
non-reactive pot and bring to a boil, simmer for 5 minutes. Meanwhile,
put all other ingredients into food processor and chop finely. Add the
liquid and puree lightly. You'll end up with a beautiful golden orange
sauce flecked with red from the red peppers. Bottle and keep
refrigerated, should last 2-3 months - if you don't use it up before
that! Use as a marinade, in soups, on fish, eggs, whatever.

Just make sure you keep plenty of good homebrew on hand - homebrew & hot
sauce, goes great with almost anything!

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, Fl




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Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:22:11 -0600
From: hal <hwarrick at springnet1.com>
Subject: cheap kegs for boilers

A recent trip to drop off alum. cans has
shown me that you can buy kegs, 7.5 and
16 gal. for a grand total of $15.00 each at your
nearest recycler. Clean to !
        Hal
So far from master Jeff's domain,
    yet still in our backyard.



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Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 20:38:31 -0600
From: bkhegemann at computerland.net
Subject: Wyeast 2278 Czech Pils

Anyone have any experience with this yeast?  I try to do a couple 
or three lagers each winter when the weather is at its coldest here 
in mid-Missouri.  Unfortunately the homebrew store didn't have 
Wyeast 2206 in stock so I came home with the Czech Pils yeast, 
a new one for me.  

My main concern is how this yeast behaves at warmer (56-60F) 
temps.  I don't have a brew fridge so my lager primary 
fermentations down in the cellar are usually in the mid to upper 
50s, particularly this year with the mild weather.   

Thoughts/suggestions??   Thanks!
 -Brad


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Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 21:43:16 EST
From: Tombrau at aol.com
Subject: hot water heater for hot liquor tank

Wort Brothers:
I am just a simple infusion guy and always on the prowl to simplify my brew 
day. Upon inspection, I find my home water heater thermostat goes to 170f. 
That's strike water temp in my book.

Is there a reason I should not turn the thermostat to 170f the night before I 
brew (rising early to beat the family to the scalding surprise) and using 
this to dough in and sparge with? 

I picture running an insulated copper pipe in the ceiling from the hot water 
heater to a valve above my mash tun
(no more lifting 10g of 170f water 6' in the air, yippee).
It would be great, being done doughing in as coffee is finishing, which is 
usually about 10 minutes after I wake up. This would shave a heavy hour off 
of brew day.

I have always generated 20g of ro water for brew day and would, with my new, 
back and time saving design, have to make Orlando City water suitable in 
another way.
I plan on putting a filter going into the water heater. Ro obviously won't 
work because it is so slow. 

What should I look for in a "faster" filter? I must plead water stupid.

Next I want to convert a dishwasher to a keg/carboy/kettle/tun cleaner, 
specialized cip jets and all.

Any help on the above will be appreciated.
Cheers
Tom


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Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 21:57:48 -0600
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: Propylene Glycol

Kraig's question about propylene glycol is worth asking.  Industrially,
propylene glycol is used as a "non"-toxic substitute for the somewhat toxic
ethylene glycol.

It is regularly used as a flavour carrier in such things as flavour
extracts like you buy at the grocery store.  I wouldn't worry a LOT about
using a bottle of flavoring in a beer, but I wouldn't use it in every
batch.

I would definitely avoid genetically modified propylene glycol, however.

Sean



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Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2000 22:41:22 -0800
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: RIMS elements

I wanted to boost my RIMS power element from its current value of 4500 W
(240V value) to 5000 or even 6000.  Experiments with my last batch suggest
to me that I have the flow rate for 6000/4 to be safe.  I have read here in
the past the suggestion to use the "Water Wizard" elements from Grainger. 
However my heating chamber is ~16.5" long, just enough for the 4500 W
element.  Can these elements be refolded without breaking/ruining the
coating?  Any other sources for a short but reasonably low watt density
element >4.5K?  Last and pretty much least, any source for *inexpensive*
1.5" copper pipe and fittings?  My last chamber cost me at least $60!
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu
http://www.stanford.edu/~jeremybb


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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 20:36:11 +1100
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Please Don't Ask me Dave

Dave Burley asks of me a question:
>Phil can you enlighten us on this apparent
>innovation?

This was in regard to counter pressure fillers.
I have to advise you Dave that since Dan Listermann stole my good name and
preceded to make a fortune with my good ideas, I have been in no mood at all
to discuss the matter. The royalties he pays me are appalling!

Thanking You For Your Enquiry
Phil





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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 13:38:58 -0000
From: Tony Barnsley <tony.barnsley at blackpool.gov.uk>
Subject: 

David G. Humes Wrote

>I have heard of some brewers sparging hops to recover 
>Otherwise lost extract.  On the homebrewing scale, I 
>see no reason to do this.  

Well If you are going to top off the fermenter, and You are already on the
high side of the recipes calculated OG then why not. I will calculate the
amount of water I would add to the fermenter to hit my desired OG and then
sparge the hops with that amount of hot water.

>There's too much risk of extracting undesirable compounds.

No problems for me as always YMMV

>It's better to just accept the loss and adjust the recipe accordingly.

Better? I adjust the recipe as per Noonan, but occasionally my system
surprises me, with a better than expected extract. Something else I do is to
spare the hops and then save that wort for starters / or priming the batch.

- --

The Scurrilous Aleman (Blackpool, Lancs, UK)
Reply To Aleman At brewmaster Dot demon Dot co Dot uk

Remembering to remove the Leave instructions for UK Homebrew this time


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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:07:52 -0500
From: "Donald D. Lake" <dake at gdi.net>
Subject: Handling - Schmidling style

Businesses that charge "handling" fees have been a sore spot for me for
some time.  I'll gladly pay for shipping because I affect that based
upon my proximity to the vendor.  But it's the vendor's job to handle
it.

<When we ship a mill,  there is a box,  packing material and the labor
involved>
<that must be included in the cost of the product.>

Jack, there are many misc. costs to running a business and they're
called "overhead".  When I go to Wal-Mart to purchase a fishing rod they
don't charge me a "stocking fee" or a "display fee" although both are
real costs of operating a retail store.  That's a cost of doing business
that's recaptured in your margin.

<If we included this in the base price, then dealers who pick up at our
factory>
<would be paying for something they do not recieve or want.>

Nice try, but there is a distinct difference between buying retail and
buying wholesale.  I would hope that the dealer that picks up at your
factory gets a better price than Joe Shlub who buys one item mail order.

The charging of handling fees is a deceptive trade practice.  Let's all
be consumer warriors and avoid doing ordering from business that do it.

Don Lake
Lake Water Brewery
(wholly-owned subsidiary of Canal Water Beverages, Inc.)



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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 06:29:15 -0800
From: "Brian Dixon" <briandixon at home.com>
Subject: Re: Sears Zone

I'll keep this very short ... (let's talk about brewing!)

[snip]
He wants 40% calories from protein and 30% each from fats and carbohydrates.
[snip]

Minor correction.  That's 40% from carbohydrates and 30% from the others.
You are still eating 'mostly carbs' on the Zone diet.  And for success ...
my bodyfat level is now 15% as predicted by Dr. Sears.  I lost 2 lbs per
week for a total of almost 70 lbs weight loss.  I'm the worst skeptic too,
but it works and my other studies have shown it to be correct nutritionally.
So regardless of the underlying mechanism, it works and is ok.  I 'cheat' in
some form every day, but 80% of my eating follows the rules and my weight
stays the same (plus or minus about 2 lbs) ... which is more than I can say
about any other way of eating I've ever tried.

Brian

PS: Sorry for continuing this thread ...




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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:45:49 -0500
From: Mark Bunster <mbunster at saturn.vcu.edu>
Subject: 400+ year old beers, available in the US

Hi there. A friend of mine wants to have a party on Feb. 29th, which
will be the first leap day in a year ending in zero in 400 years. (The
last was Feb 29 1600; the next Feb 29 2400). To celebrate, he'd ideally
like to find a keg of beer brewed essentially the same way it was in
1600. Weizens are out on personal taste, and a keg of Corsendonk might
insure that 60 people spend the night at his house, but otherwise
anything that you can get in the Mid-Atlantic is good. A keg is not a
requirement, although that's the ideal.

I know of several breweries still active that predate 1600, but I can't
think of any that are readily available in quantity in the Virginia
area. Can you?

Thanks--private replies are welcome. List replies if you feel it's
interesting enough...

M



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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:48:15 EST
From: MaltHound at aol.com
Subject: Re:Capping Twist-off Bottles/Low extraction 

In HomeBurley Digest #3219 << "Patrick Flahie" <flahiepa at msu.edu> asks:

"...Although standard cappers and caps may not be suited
 for these purposes, is there any method of capping these bottles?  I would
 hate to see them returned for a mere 10 cents and never be heard from again."

Sure.  You can definitely cap twist off bottles with a few minor caveats.  
Since they are typically thinner than the non-twistoff type bottles you will 
want to try and find the right kind of caps.  Bottle caps made for twist off 
applications are made from slightly thinner metal and can be crimped with 
less force on the capper. Many HB supply shops carry commercial over-run 
bottle caps.  If you can find some with the twist-off arrow marks on the 
sides, these are the ones you want.  

You will also want to use a bench style capper on twist offs vs. the 
two-handled lever style.  Use only enough pressure on the capper to seat and 
crimp the cap.  One note, even when you crimp the right type of cap on a 
twist off bottle, you probably won't be able to twist them off.  The capper 
that the big-boys use to allow them to twist-off makes the sides of the cap 
engage the threads on the bottle lip.
 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also, in the same issue, "Brian Dixon" <briandixon at home.com> in his reply to 
Russ Hobaugh" <Russ_Hobaugh at erm.com>  Re: Help needed on All Grain 
gives a pretty good analysis of the possible causes of Russ's low all-grain 
extraction rates.  However, near the end of his post he slips in this 
questionable advice:

"5. Other.  The Zapap thing will get you by, but is not the best choice for
efficiency.  Keep your bucket with the spigot on it and go buy a Phil's
Phalse bottom (about $13) and you'll see a vast improvement..."

While the Listermann Phalse Bottom is undoubtedly a worthwhile device, and 
the Zapap is not the most elegant mashing system,  I fail to see why it would 
necessarily cause decreased extraction from a mash with all other variables 
being equal.  There is nothing intrinsically inefficient with a Zapap design.

Some people point to the large space below the false bottom (inner bucket) as 
a source of inefficiency, but that shouldn't be the case.  By the end of the 
sparge, the only thing that will be left behind is a relatively small volume 
of very low gravity (tannin ridden?) wort.  If you sparge to the oft quoted 
1.010 "magic" gravity and there is 2 quarts of space under false bottom, that 
equates to a potential "loss" of .005 gravity points or only a difference of 
 .001 points in a 5 gallon wort.  In reality, that same wort would be left 
behind in the grain bed if the false bottom were closer to the bottom of the 
bucket.

If you really wanted an additional quart or two of those evil last runnings 
in your kettle it would seem simple enough to heat more hot liquor and just 
sparge a bit longer. 

I think the "Zapaps are inefficient" momily can be traced to the trends that 
many of us experienced as beginning brewers using Zapaps.  As we became more 
experienced we tended to make or buy different, cooler, more extravagant mash 
tun devices.  Our efficiencies increased, but they may well have increased 
had we stayed with the old equipment and simply improved our techniques.

For what it's worth, my vote is that the most probable cause of Russ's low 
extraction is an incomplete grain crush.  

QDA!!!  It's my *opinion* based on my own personal experience that it is 
impossible to overcrush malt when using a roller mill.  Unless you use a 
flour grinder (ie Corona), stuck mashes are due to lautering process not 
milling.

Now excess tannin extraction due to over crushing... that's a whole 'nother 
thread!  

Regards,
Fred Wills
Cheerfully abusing my grain husks in
Londonderry, NH

  




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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:00:13 -0500
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: CounterPhil

Dave Burley  (Dave_Burley at compuserve.com)  asks about our counter pressure
filler - the CounterPhil:

<I also saw a recent CP bottle Philler
from Listerman, I believe, in which the
beer is siphoned ( and thus the feeder
keg must be elevated) under a pressure
head. This may have the same effect,
but I couldn't really tell from the explanation.
Phil can you enlighten us on this apparent
innovation?>

The CounterPhil uses three things to smooth the flow into bottles and
reduce steps for counter pressure filling.  It uses the syphon method of
moving the beer instead of the usual pressure differential method which
requires a reduction in pressure in the bottle to move the beer and a
greater likelyhood for foaming.  The syphon method requires that the keg be
higher than the bottle.  It maintains the exact same pressure in the bottle
as the pressure in the keg.  On a practical level the beer only "feels"
movement with no reduction in pressure.

A three way valve and a simple check valve allow the CounterPhil to be
operated with about half the number of steps required to operate a
conventional counterpressure filler.  No third hand or religious ritual
required. This speeds the learing curve ( this learning curve can be messy)
and greatly reduces the opportunity for errors ( also messy ).

Thanks for asking!

Dan Listermann  dan at listermann.com    72723.1707 at compuserve,com

PS  Phil is our 18 year old son who only works here when he is desperate
for money.


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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:49:52 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Lager Brewers: Request for critique and tips

Guy (but presumably not Norine) Gregory <guyg at icehouse.net> asks:

>Jeff, looking back, annually you tend to update folks on your current
>thinking on CAP brewing...any new ideas for the millenium?

Nothing different from maybe a year ago.  I generally brew with ~22%
coarse, degermed yellow cornmeal and 78% six-row (by weight, not extract).
Target 1.048 OG.  I generally mash in most of the six-row with low-sulfate
water at either 104F or, if I'm being a little lazy, 144F.  Then I mash the
cornmeal with 1/3 of its weight six-row (the rest of it) at ~153F.  I rest
this a convenient amount of time, maybe 20-30 minutes, while the main mash
rests a similar time at 104F if I'm doing that rest.  Then I bring the
cereal mash to a boil and boil 30 minutes or so, during which I boost the
main mash from 104 to 144 with the burner and recirculation and rest it
20-30 minutes.  Then I add the cereal mash to the main mash and, since this
seldom brings it to 158F, I boost again to this and rest 20-30 minutes.
Then I boost to 170F mashout, hold a short time, recirculate until clear
and lauter.  You can figure out how the timing works - you just try to have
the main mash ready for boost from 144 at the same time the cereal mash is
done boiling.

However, I did a CACA (Classic American Cream Ale) with a single step
infusion  at 153 using flaked maize and six-row and this worked just fine.  A
little hazy but this settled out in the lagering period.  I'm not at all
sure a multi-step is necessary, but I like it because it's traditional, and
I think the flavor may be superior.

I first wort hop with noble hops, boil with Cluster to a target of low 30's
IBUs, knowing that the fwh will contribute bitterness, too, and add a bit
of noble hops at 15 minutes before castout.  I probably end up mid to upper
30's IBUs.  Immersion chill with recirulation through the hop bed to
clarify, pitch lots of Ayinger lager yeast from Yeast Culture Kit Co, or
another lager yeast if it isn't available.  Ferment at 48-50, lager 6 weeks
at 33F, force carbonate in keg.  I don't need to give directions on what I
do then, do I?

BTW, I will be taking a 1/4 barrel to the MCAB II in St. Louis March 24-26.
Southwest Airlines said I can bring it as baggage, although you never know
if the folks at the counter will agree.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:01:26 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Capping Twist-off Bottles

"Patrick Flahie" <flahiepa at msu.edu> writes:
>
>everything that I have read says that twist-off bottles can't be
>used by homebrewers.  Although standard cappers and caps may not be suited
>for these purposes, is there any method of capping these bottles?

I think this is one of the first bits of homebrewing wisdom I heard, at
least 25 years ago, and accepted on the face of it.  May have even repeated
it.  I think this makes it a mommily.  The story was that you have to use a
thinner gauge cap to crimp and seal properly.

However, this past year I discovered that I had included a few screw cap
bottles accidently, so I went ahead and filled and capped them.  I found
that I had to be a little more careful to get the cap straight, sometimes
turning the bottle after crimping and recrimping to push the cap home all
around.  They held just fine.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:12:01 -0500
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: blow-off scum


Joel Plutchak commented on Al K's experiments:
- ----------------
   I don't know if he did that experiment, but he did do and
write up a comparison between using a blow-off method during
primary fermentation versus not doing so.  One can think of
the blow-off method as similar to skimming-- the "scum" is
removed in either case.  I'm almost certain he found that it
distinctly did make a difference in bitterness of the finished
beer.  (Comments, Al?)
- ------------ --
I don't know the details of this experiment but if there is significant
material expelled out the blow-off it will consist of more than simply the
bitter and insoluble resinous "scum" that adheres to the top of the carboy.
Just something to keep in mind when evaluating these results. Along these
lines I have shifted to a half-assed "Pseudo-Burton Union" system when I
have a ferment going with a yeast that likes to top crop. I got fed up with
losing yeast through the blow off in the first 12-24 hours. Now I collect it
in the same container I used for the starter and return it to the primary.

 -Alan Meeker






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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 09:36:19 -0600
From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject: No-Sparge Tannins

The discussion about tannin extraction has evolved 
into the topic of no-sparge or limited sparge beers.  I 
have discussed this with several people off-line and 
a few posts are starting to appear in the HBD.  Most 
people tend to agree that limiting the sparge process 
results in a beer with more "yummy malt flavor".  
Presumably, the no (or low) -sparge technique makes 
better beer because you maximize the extraction of 
various flavor components relative to the amount of 
water used.  Which all makes perfect sense to me.  
Now here is the interesting part:

Can you name a class of flavor components that would 
be maximized as a result of the no-sparge process??  
That's right - TANNINS!   How ironic especially in light 
of previous discussions on the subject.

Just something to think about.

Paul Niebergall
Burns & McDonnell
pnieb at burnsmcd.com
"Illegitimis non carborundum"

(New readers should be told that I was once a very 
frequent poster to the HBD.  Most of what I have 
posted is worthless, but it does make me feel like 
a really important guy.)




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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:46:19 -0800
From: "Lynn & Mike Key" <flakeys at mindspring.com>
Subject: Pucker Power! How Many Lemons?

Planning to brew a partial mash lemon wheat beer. Haven't been able to find
lemon extract so will instead use real lemons. How many lemons do I use for
a 5.5 gal. batch of brew? Do I use just the juice or should I also throw in
the rinds? Should I use lemon zest too? Do I add the lemons to the boiler or
to the secondary? Thanks.




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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 07:44:13 -0800 (PST)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: How much of an OG is Unfermentable?

It is generally held that certain grains and adjuncts
contribute to 'mouthfeel' by providing compounds which
yeast will not ferment.  These substances contribute
to the gravity of a wort but are not 'fermented out'
thereby resulting in a higher FG.  Is there a 'list'
of the non-fermentable gravity contribution of these
grains/adjuncts?  Huuummm
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com


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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:06:41 -0500
From: "Russ Hobaugh" <Russ_Hobaugh at erm.com>
Subject: Thanks for the suggestions



Thank you to all who answered my post both privately and here on the
hdb.  It seems like my problem is mainly my water, and possibly the
crush.  I will work on those before my next batch.

I did want to clarify about adding DME to distilled water.  I was reading up
about all grain before attempting, and this was in one of the books that I
read.  I don't remember the author or title, but according to him, if you added
1 tbs of DME/gallon to distilled water it became chemically perfect for mashing
and
sparging. According to ALL the responses I got, this is not even close to
correct.  So
I have learned my lesson--I will run questionable practices by the experts
of the hbd from now on.

Thanks again for all the help. In the year that I have been brewing this forum
has helped
me go from straight extract to all grain.   I have learned a great deal about
brewing from
all of you and am glad I found this forum. Now if we could just drop the diet
topics and flame
wars:)

Russ Hobaugh
Goob' Dog Brewery, Birdsboro PA




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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:14:19 -0600
From: "Brauner, Shane" <SBrauner at Central.UH.EDU>
Subject: Guinness Bubbles

Thought y'all might find this interesting....

- --Shane
Houston, TX

Text below taken from
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000111/sc/science_guinness_1.html

Tuesday January 11 8:37 PM ET 
Bubbles in Guinness Do Go Down, Study Finds
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Australian scientists say they have answered a
question that has plagued and entertained drinkers for generations -- why do
the bubbles in a glass of Guinness appear to be falling to the bottom?

They said computer simulation had settled the issue, and perhaps saved many
a pint being sacrificed in the name of science.

Clive Fletcher and his students at the University of New South Wales in
Sydney found that most bubbles in a pint of the creamy stout do indeed rise,
as bubbles should.

But the liquid carrying these bubbles has nowhere to go once it reaches the
top, so it flows back down the sides of the glass, taking smaller bubbles
with it. Bubbles larger than 0.05 mm are able to resist.

Fletcher's team said in a statement that they simulated the motion of the
bubbles using Fluent computational fluid dynamics (CFD) software from Fluent
Incorporated, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Aavid Thermal Technologies Inc.,
based in Concord, New Hampshire.

Animation of the simulation is available at
http:/www.fluent.com/news/pressrel/guinness/tsld001.htm.
 


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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:13:52 -0600
From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject: line length

I have noticed that many of my 
posts bounce because of supposedly 
exceeding 80 characters in line length.  
Even  though I put returns in the text 
way before I get to the 80th character. 
I have also set my e-mail program to limit 
the line length to only 70 characters, 
just to be sure.  I am forced to arbitrarily 
trim the line lengths each time a post 
bounces, usually several iterations are 
required before the post is accepted.

At first I thought this was a conspiracy to
keep me from posting because although 
my posts are always well thought out and 
insightful, for some reason they are not 
always well received by the so-called 
expurts. Go figure.
 
Anyway, I have also noticed that lately 
several  posts appearing in recent editions 
of the HBD seem have limited line lengths 
(some of the posts are starting to look like 
newspaper columns).  It appears as if others 
may be experiencing the same problems.  
Or am I just hallucinating again?

Is anyone else out there encountering 
similar problems?



Paul Niebergall
Burns & McDonnell
pnieb at burnsmcd.com
"Illegitimis non carborundum"



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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:23:43 -0500
From: "Hampo, Richard (R.)" <rhampo at ford.com>
Subject: Loss of wort due to hops

Hi all,

There is an alternative to losing lots of wort in the hops - use a hop bag.
I use a hop bag for several reasons: First, I don't have to worry about my
racking cane plugging from the hops since I just take them out after the
wort is chilled.  And second, I can "squish" the bag with my brewing spoon
(sanitized) and get out quite a bit of wort trapped in the hops. 
Yes, I do lose some hopping efficiency but then everything is a trade off! I
make the trade off in the direction of less clean up effort in almost all
circumstances, and hop bags really work well for me. 

Brew on!

Richard Hampo
H&H Brewing Ltd.
Livonia, Michigan
2.5 miles NE (as the crow flies) of the HBD server



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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:33:18 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: mash efficiency

First a small nit to pick...

Paul Smith wrote...

**Secondly, what is your milled grist like?  If it's too
coarse, you will not
get as much out as you could, as gelatinization (the
dissolution of the starch
in the endosperm, so enzymes may "attack" the starch better)
is simply not
taking hold as much as with a finer grist, and you will not
have as much
"available" starch.  Ideally, if looking at the flour, fine,
coarse, and husk
percentages in the grist, you want about 56% to be "fine,"
with only about 8%
to be coarse (source, Kunze).  "Coarse," "fine," etc., are
measurements made
with a sieve, but you can eyeball your grist and get an
idea.**

Gelatinization less of a dissolution as it is the physical
action of a starch granule bursting.  It requires more
energy than simply placing starch in water.  Imagine a ball
packed with string and you get some idea of the physical
structure of a starch granule.  As starch is heated in water
it swells and will eventually "burst" or melt at the
appropriate temp (different for different starches) if a
shear force is added.  Most gelatinization is done in the
malt house as the walls of the starch granules are broken
down by enzymes (and are acted on by beta-amylase to some
extent), but some does occur during the mash.  One way to
improve gelatinization is to mix the mash regularly. The
physical shear created by mixing the mash will assist
gelatinization.  Sorry Paul, it's a minor point but I wanted
to be sure everyone got exactly what you were driving at.

Next topic:

George mentioned the increase in dextrins through use of
Munich or other highly kilned malts.  This may explain why
gravities drop more through use of Vienna malt instead of
Munich.  I also think that there's some type-III resistant
starch in these higher kilned malts.  A prof. up at Cornell
is set up to analyze materials for their resistant starch
content, but the assays cost $125/sample.  I always thought
this would result in some interesting findings, but with the
demise of BT I can't think of another organization who might
be interested in footing the bill for the tests.  Not that
they were necessarily interested, but I'm still in
mourning...

Maybe someone could genetically modify barley to allow the
beta and alpha amylases to remain stable at higher temps.
Then we could improve efficiencies through better
gelatinization of the starch while retaining traditional
methods.  Any takers?  ;-)

Cheers!
Marc



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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 11:41:14 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: mash efficiency, part deux

I forgot to mention in the last post--use of distilled water
to mash will likely result in a dearth of calcium.  Ca is a
required cofactor in enzymatic amylolysis (breakdown of
starch).  You need at least 50ppm of Ca in the mash to give
enzymes the minerals they need to break down the mash.

There is also likely a lack of trace minerals which are
necessary for proper yeast growth and fermentation.  Yeast
need zinc, copper, manganese, magnesium, and assorted other
bits o' minerals to work right.  The solution?  Try adding 2
tsp of calcium chloride to the mash along with 1/2 gallon of
regular tap water (pre-boiled if that's important to you).
The CaCl2 will ensure the proper calcium concentration and
the tap water will solve the trace minerals issue.

Brew on!
Marc



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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 12:11:09 -0500
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Re: Microwaving to sterilize

On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, John S Thompson asked about Microwaving to sterilize:

>I have some petri dishes which I use for streaking out yeast. I was
>wondering if a short blast in the microwave, say 5 to 10 seconds, would
>sterilize a thin layer of wort/agar. 

I know Alan already responded stating that you can't and from what I know,
he's on the money.  But here's a well informed link regarding the possible
use of microwaves for sterilization and the "microwave effect" just for
information to interested parties.  It just won't work in the home microwave
without boiling and subsequently, making a mess ;-)

http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/wjk/mwaves.htm


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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 10:56:21 -0700
From: "Timmons, Frank" <frank.timmons at honeywell.com>
Subject: Re:  Pewter, lead, and care instructions

 "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca> writes:


"I got off my duff and found the info for myself.  Apparently modern pewter
uses antimony in place of lead, so the issue is purely one of not
tarnishing the metal by storing acidic foods or beverages for any length of
time."

Not to alarm anybody unnecessarily, but antimony is toxic in moderate
quantities, according to the CRC handbook. Not as bad as lead, but still
toxic. Any acidic liquid (beer is one) will leach metals into it. It's
probably not any big deal, however. I do think I would wash it well, maybe
with vinegar several times and rinse before using.

My dad used to have a set of ceramic tankards with pewter tops. Why don't
you get one of those if you're worried about bees getting in your beer?




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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 13:47:47 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Shipping and Handling 

I have to agree with Jack here.

There are certain costs associated with packaging and shipping an
item.  You've got to pay the person who gets it off the shelf (or
wherever) and puts it in the box.  You've got to pay for packaging
materials.  Etc.  These are not costs that are included in
"manufacturing" the item.  They are costs that are incurred in the
process of providing a service to you -- that is, in fulfilling your
order.

A couple of years ago, I acted as the agent for a group of
homebrewers, in that I purchased, packaged, and shipped some custom
glassware.  I did not charge for my time.  But the cost of packing
materials for 1 to 4 glasses was $4.50.  Should I have averaged that
to a cost of $2.25 per glass?  Then the folks buying 1 glass would be
undercharged and would be subsidized by the folks buying 4 glasses,
who would be overcharged.  No. It was more honest to say "packaging
cost of $4.50 for up to 4 glasses."

Yes, I was surprised at that cost.  It was more than the price of a
single glass ($3.25 with engraving).  It was more than the cost of
shipping a single glass ($4 by USPS Priority at that time).  I no
longer have the exact breakdown, but here's how they were packaged: In
order to minimize breakage (1 glass broken out of over 120 shipped) I
"double-boxed."  In detail, each glass was wrapped in bubble wrap, and
placed in a box (8x8x8 inches) that held 4 wrapped glasses snugly.  If
fewer than 4 glasses were ordered, the remainder of the box was filled
with "peanuts."  Then this box was placed in a larger box (12x12x12
inches), surrounded by a layer of "peanuts."  In fact, those buying 4
glasses still underpaid slightly, since their shipments needed more
bubblewrap than the smaller shipments.  Per order, then, I used
	   1 12x12x12 box 
	   1 8x8x8 box
	   1 cuft "peanuts"
	   2-8 sqft bubble wrap
	   some packaging tape, marker, etc.

It added up!  Interestingly, a not insignificant portion of the
packaging cost was "shipping & handling" to get the boxes & bubble
wrap shipped TO ME!  (I bought the peanuts locally, but even with
shipping, it was cheaper to order the boxes & wrap from U-Line in
Chicago.)

Well, I've gone on much too long here.  Thanks for bearing with me.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)


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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:57:26 -0000
From: "Nigel Porter" <nigel at sparger.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Help needed on All Grain

>To unsubscribe email 
>list at ale.co.uk 
>with 
>leave uk-homebrew 
>in the message body.

Tony - you're getting your UK & US digests mixed up <g>

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------

On the subject of Graham Wheeler recipes (and any others I use 
from books etc), I generally use the relative quantities of grains and 
hops and run the figures through my spreadsheet, to tweak the recipe 
to my setup. This normally works fine.

Nigel Porter
Guildford, Surrey - UK


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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 14:38:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Plus shipping and handling

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Frankly, I'd rather see the "plus shipping and handling" than the
alternative. If they don't surcharge the item for packaging, they'll bury
it in the price. I see the differentiation as a savings since handling (a
service)  generally isn't taxable. I *DO* have a problem with those
companies that don't disclose the shipping and handling at advertisement,
leading you up the primrose path until ultimate discovery and
disappointment, but Jack, as I recall, isn't one of these. (Why does it
cost BMG about $2.60 to package and ship me EACH CD, though? Think they're
making up for the discount price, I do...)

 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 16:56:25 -0500
From: "Patrick Flahie" <flahiepa at msu.edu>
Subject: Re: Poor All-Grain Extraction

In HBD 3219, Jeff Renner and Brian Dixon both questioned Russ Hobaugh's
addition of 1 tsp. of DME / gallon of distilled water in his all-grain
batch.  I can say that Russ is not the only one out in TV Land that uses
this practice (effective or not).  Ken Schwartz's presentation "Converting
All-Grain Recipes to Extract / Partial Mash" (from the 1998 AHA Conference)
suggests this practice as a no-fuss way to optimize water chemistry for
mashing.  It states that mashing and sparging are sensitive to certain
characteristics of water, and the addition of 1 Tbsp. of DME per gallon of
distilled water provides for the right conditions for mashing and sparging
without fussing with acids, salts, or pH measurements.

Since all-grain brewing is somewhat daunting to begin with, I made the
choice to make it as simple as possible and follow Ken's tip.  However, I
can't really comment on its effects on my efficiency.

If this water treatment practice is ineffective, are there any simple water
tricks for those of us slowly working our way into all-grain brewing?

If anyone's interested, a copy of Ken's presentation can be found at
http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer/.

Patrick Flahie
Jackson, MI





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Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2000 17:24:32 -0600
From: ALABREW <alabrew at mindspring.com>
Subject: sanitizers


RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com> responded to my post about C&B's reply to
the sanitiative effectiveness of B-Brite with "I appreciate the cost of
FDA registration and understand why C&B would not pursue it, but my
understanding from what was on HBD and a microbiolist at a major
consumer bacteriacidal company, who is a homebrewer, is "it's a mild sanitizer"

Is this like being "a little pregnant"  

It really sounds to me like an excellent experiment and article for the
new and revised Zymurgy.  Brew Your Own did an article on sanitizers
awhile back but only compared Star San, BTF, and bleach.  Don't know why
they left out One Step and B-Brite - any ideas why, anyone???

- -- 
ALABREW Homebrewing Supplies
http://www.mindspring.com/~alabrew
Birmingham, AL
Home Beer and Wine Making Specialists




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---