---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Jeremy's chilled hydrometer jar ("Sean Richens")
  Wyeast - European Lager II - 2247 (Ant Hayes)
  Re:Capping Twist-off Bottles/Low extraction ("Brian D.")
  Wyeast 2278 Czech Pils (Tony Barnsley)
  Re: 400+ year old beers, available in the US (Mark Rogerson)
  Hot Water Heater strikes (AlannnnT)
  Re: 400+ Year Old Beers ("Paul Ward")
  gelatinization nit/gmo malt (steve-alexander)
  Re: 400+ year old beers, available in the US (Jeff Renner)
  Line Length (John Adsit)
  Shipping and Handling ("Matthew A. Cosenza")
  re: makin' hot sauce (Lou.Heavner)
  Rauchenfels (Some Guy)
  lemon peppers ("Paul Niebergall")
  Re: Poor All-Grain Extraction (Jesse Stricker)
  Is it just me, or... (Bob Sutton)
  400 year old techniques ("Bayer, Mark A")
  Gelatinization ("Paul Smith")
  VERY old can of Bud (Jeff McNally)
  Arrogance, Ignorance, Science and Human Fraility (Mark_Ohrstrom/Humphrey_Products)
  Re: How much of an OG is Unfermentable? ("Steven J. Owens")
  Handling Charge (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Boy - am I hosed... (Boob Sutton)
  Hot Sauce and Homebrew ("Eric R. Theiner")
  LEMON BREW (hal)
  The Valley Mill (Joe Kish)
  O2 Pickup from crash cooling ("Keith Christian")
  Brewer's Notebook 2.0 (mchahn)
  phalse bottom plumming (Lostboy676)
  Priming Question (William Frazier)
  dry beer (Jeff Hall)
  water treatment made easy ("George de Piro")
  Re: Burst sparging ("Brian D.")
  Re: Burst sparging (crossno)
  burst sparging (Randy Ricchi)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 22:36:02 -0600
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: Jeremy's chilled hydrometer jar

I've seen a double-walled stainless hydrometer jar sitting by the grant in
a brewery.  Of course, since they're not brewing 5-gallon batches they
don't mind filling it to overflowing in order to read the bob.  It looks
like they use tap water for chilling.

Since sufficiency is the death of invention, I'll just continue using my
Turkish coffee pot to chill wort samples.  Since it's designed for good
swirling action, like an Erlenmeyer flask, I can get samples down to
measuring temperature in a minute or so with a sink full of cold water.

Sean



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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:11:37 +0200
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: Wyeast - European Lager II - 2247

I recently imported a smack pack of Wyeast - European Lager II - 2247.

I scaled up twice before pitching into my first batch. It took about 2,5
weeks to ferment from 1,042 to 1,015, when I shifted it to secondary.

I then repitched the entire slurry/trub mix into my next batch, and after 2
weeks and 5 days, it has taken 1,035 down to 1,012, and is still dropping
slowly.

I ferment at around 10C - in a fridge, so the temp does not fluctuate much.

Has anyone else experienced such slow fermentations with this yeast?

Ant Hayes


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Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 23:40:19 -0800
From: "Brian D." <briandixon at home.com>
Subject: Re:Capping Twist-off Bottles/Low extraction

>> "5. Other.  The Zapap thing will get you by, but is not the best choice
for
>> efficiency.  Keep your bucket with the spigot on it and go buy a Phil's
>> Phalse bottom (about $13) and you'll see a vast improvement..."
>
> While the Listermann Phalse Bottom is undoubtedly a worthwhile device, and
> the Zapap is not the most elegant mashing system,  I fail to see why it
would
> necessarily cause decreased extraction from a mash with all other
variables
> being equal.  There is nothing intrinsically inefficient with a Zapap
design.
[snip]

I based my summary on the 1995 Zymurgy Special Issue (The Great Grain Issue)
in which an article by Al Korzonas entitled "Zymurgy Road Test: Lautering
Systems" gave the following results (from best to worst in efficiency):

1. Phil's Phalse Bottom, 33.48 ppg
2. Pico Brewing Systems, 32.31 ppg
3. Easy-Masher, 32.18 ppg
4. Slotted pipe in cooler, 31.98 ppg
5. Zapap, 31.07 ppg
6. Grain bag, 30.16 ppg

More information on the recipe, techniques, and equipment used can be found
in Al's article.  But if you read it, I'm sure you'll agree that good and
proper technique was used.  BTW, "ppg" stands for "points per pound per
gallon" and in this case has nothing to do with maximum potentials of any
particular grain since the recipe used in the testing was a blend.  Note
that the Phalse Bottom took first place, and that the only thing worse than
the Zapap lauter tun was a plain grain bag in a bucket.

Differences in efficiencies are due to many different factors, including
things like wort flow patterns through the mash, ability of the lautering
system to produce a good 'set' so the wort travels through it at a slow
enough speed, and temperature distribution in a given lautering system ...
and also the user variables such as grain bed depth and how well the rate of
lautering was able to be set up and maintained.

The point here is that different lautering systems do make a difference.
Al's testing did not test each and every system available, so you may find
other systems that do better or worse.  The difference between the Phalse
Bottom and the Zapap was actually quite significant ... a 5-gallon batch
with 8 lbs of grain would end up differing by almost 4 points!  (Difference
in ppg is 2.41 ppg, so 8 lbs would result in a difference of 19.3 total
points.  Divide this by 5 to get the difference in SG points for the batch
 ... 3.9 pts!  Or for this example batch, 1.054 versus 1.050!)  Charlie
Papazian strikes again!

Brian




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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:22:09 -0000
From: Tony Barnsley <tony.barnsley at blackpool.gov.uk>
Subject: Wyeast 2278 Czech Pils

Brad Asked:

>Anyone have any experience with this yeast?

<snip>

<My main concern is how this yeast behaves at warmer
>(56-60F) temps.

I used / Use it regularly when brewing pilsners, At warmer temps (I didn't
have a brew fridge either, My project for this winter), it can be somewhat
sulphurous when compared to say the Bohemian. Neither seem to be as good(?)
a diacetyl producer as the Bavarian. I found my results were clean even at
60-65, Probably not completely a Pilsner profile but still a nice beer.

Cant wait to get this chest freezer completed :>

- --

The Scurrilous Aleman (Blackpool, Lancs, UK)
Reply To Aleman At brewmaster Dot demon Dot co Dot uk
To unsubscribe email 

list at ale.co.uk 

with 

leave uk-homebrew 

in the message body.


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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 07:35:52 -0600
From: Mark Rogerson <arkmay at flash.net>
Subject: Re: 400+ year old beers, available in the US

> Hi there. A friend of mine wants to have a party on Feb. 29th, which
> will be the first leap day in a year ending in zero in 400 years. (The
> last was Feb 29 1600; the next Feb 29 2400).
>
You mean the last leap year that ended in *TWO* zeroes, don't you?
After all, 1980 was a leap year and it ends in one zero.  Of course if
we all had been born with eight fingers (7 fingers - one thumb) on
each hand, we'd probably have just celebrated the year 7D0.  Or maybe
if we just had one finger each, this year would end with a whopping
FOUR ZEROES!  11111010000

It's all so arbitrary ....
- --
Mark Rogerson, HMFIC
Randy Stoat Femtobrewery
Houston, Texas, U! S! A!
http://www.flash.net/~arkmay/Mark/rsf_tour/

Minister of Propaganda
Kuykendahl Gran Brewers
Houston, Texas, U! S! A!
http://www.TheKGB.org/




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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:15:30 EST
From: AlannnnT at aol.com
Subject: Hot Water Heater strikes 


> Tombrau at aol.com
>  Subject: hot water heater for hot liquor tank
Asking about sparging with 170 F water from a household water tank.  

Finally, a subject I can help with! 

Assuming the that you've thought about the variables like the thermostats 
accuracy and temp drop in the line on the way to the wash tun etc..

One practical note; check your water supply tubing. The short lengths of 
tubing from your hot water supply (commonly called a 'speedy') valve to each 
faucet in the house may be made of a flexible material. These are commonly 
braided plastic or stainless, or shiny plastic made to look like stainless, 
on the outside. The inside is a plastic tubing core. These are screwed in to 
the supply valve under your sink, and then to the sink supply itself. It is 
very possible that these will NOT take 170 F water at all. Or, that they will 
become misshapen enough to leak when they cool down. We have numerous 
complaints from homeowners that these devices burst or leak when they run 
their water heaters hotter than normal. 
Your water supplies may be made of flexible copper tubing, possibly chrome 
plated. These would be less likely to be troublesome. Not warranty here, 
don't sue me, but these don't generaly fail unless you change your faucet. 

Another possible failure area at 170 F is the faucet itself. Some very cheap 
faucets are entirely plastic (most bargain faucets from Home Cheapo and Loews 
etc.).
Plastic is an ideal material for household plumbing for many reasons, but 
warping at high temperatures is one of the drawbacks of many plastic parts.

My best suggestion might be to hook up an alternate spigot or drain off the 
top of the heater. Drain your mash-in water from the heater, not through a 
faucet in the house.
But first change your plastic supply lines to copper. The water heater will 
not cool down until you drain out alot of water from it!

Alan Talman


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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:24:27 -0500
From: "Paul Ward" <paulw at doc.state.vt.us>
Subject: Re: 400+ Year Old Beers

I'm sure by now that Mark Bunster has had more than enough responses that
there are many leap years that end with a '0', and tht it's leap years

Which begs the question of the year 1800.  According to my reckoning, 1800
should have been a leap year, but according to my UNIX cal program, it only
had 28 days.

What happened?  Someone forget?

Paul in Vermont

paulw at doc.state.vt.us



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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 15:00:59 +0000
From: steve-alexander at att.net
Subject: gelatinization nit/gmo malt

A nit on Marc Sedam's nit  ...
>Most gelatinization is done in the
>malt house as the walls of the starch granules
>are broken down by enzymes (and are acted on by
>beta-amylase to some extent), 
alpha-amylase is much more relevent - and I have papers
to prove this if the Spanish inquisition is still 
in session. I disagree 
a bit w/ the comment about the maltster doing it.
A good fraction (~35% from memory) of the starch from 
malt is immediately available.  The rest (total almost
100%) gelatinizes duting the mash.  Photomicrographs of
starch granules before and after the mash are quite
convincing.

Also ...
>Maybe someone could genetically modify barley to allow
> the beta and alpha amylases to remain stable at higher
> temps. Then we could improve efficiencies through
> better gelatinization of the starch while retaining
> traditional methods. 
Huh? The heat stable enzymes would make traditional
brewing uh - history.
I'd rather have greater stability and activity of
beta-glucanases but .... we'd better both be careful
what we wish for.

 -S


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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:52:01 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: 400+ year old beers, available in the US

Mark Bunster <mbunster at saturn.vcu.edu> has a friend who would
>like to find a keg of beer brewed essentially the same way it was in
>1600.

In the Bavarian Alps, dark lagers were being brewed at that time, although
I suspect they may have been different from modern ones.  (Bocks are out
for the same reason as Corsendonk).  I'd suggest a nice Dunkel from an old
Bavarian brewery.  How about Augustiner (founded 1328) Dunkel Export
(Jackson 2.5/4 stars, "has occasionally appeared in Germanic areas of the
U.S.").  Steinbier is an old style, but the Rauchenfels Brewery is only 17
years old, and it's perhaps a less approachable style for the uniniated.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 08:27:17 -0700
From: John Adsit <jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us>
Subject: Line Length

Paul Niebergall writes about the line length problem.  As someone who
deals with e-mail almost all day long, I often forgot about this
restriction, since HBD is the only person or organization with whom I
corresond that has such a restriction.  My messages would bounce, and I
would have to do them again.

That's the main reason (along with the full flame environment) that I
went to exclusive lurker mode.

- --
John Adsit
Boulder, Colorado
jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us




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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:33:06 -0500
From: "Matthew A. Cosenza" <MCosenza at KAPLAW.com>
Subject: Shipping and Handling

All this Shipping and Handling stuff has gotten me irritated.  I realize
that there is extra cost in "handling" an item to be shipped-- But there's
an added benefit in that you are increasing your target customer base my
millions!  It's the Wal Mart theory-- sell more stuff at cheaper prices.
Every cent does not need to be passed on.  The smart e-sellers will offer NO
shipping or handling costs for sales over a certain price limit in an effort
to gain a larger customer base.  It's insulting to me that stores add a
handling cost.  I know the boxes cost more-- but this is the way that
e-business is going to be.  Make up your costs with volume.


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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:54:00 -0600
From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com
Subject: re: makin' hot sauce

     Mark Tumarkin gives a nice post on hot sauces. I would add some
     comments:

     Mark's description of Tabasco sauce is pretty good.  Another variant
     seen in some restaurants which is clear, colorless and milder and
     thinner is to skip the puree step and simply pack whole peppers into
     the container and "can".  The vinegar extracts some of the pepper and
     heat flavor and can be sprinkled on foods.  When the liquid is gone,
     the peppers can be eaten as pickled peppers.  The slender type of
     peppers seem best for this.

     Also, if you like the peperocini peppers you get in salads, the Ball
     canning booklet has a good canning recipe which results in the same
     taste.  I have always used home grown Hungarian wax peppers which are
     mild and flavorful and look about the same, only a bit bigger, but
     pepperocini seeds are available mail order.

     Also, for Mexican salsas, leave the avacados out.  Avacados make
     Guacamole which is good, but different from Salsa.  If you want green
     salsa (aka salsa verde) use tomatillo's also known as husk tomatoes,
     green peppers (jalapeno or serrano picked before they turn red) and
     green onions. And some folks add some chopped carrot to salsa which
     makes it a bit chunkier.  And always use fresh cilantro.  Dried is
     flavorless.  You can use a food processor if you hold back the
     tomatoes until everything else is chopped up.  Then add the tomatoes
     and pulse until you get the consistency you want.

     When cooking with Habaneros, carrots can be used to dilute some of the
     heat.  Why anybody would want to do that is beyond me, but it seems to
     be pretty common practise in restaurants.  The carrots have roughly
     the same color, which may be why they are used.

     And finally, some good additions to Carribean sauces which Mark did
     not include are tamarind and coconut.

     Also, in an effort to make this post beerworthy, I find that most
     Mexican beers have minimal hop flavor or bitterness, but my own
     personal preference is for highly hopped beers with salsas and hot
     foods in general.  Is there any consensus on the best style of beer to
     go with salsa? Tex-Mex? Cajun? Thai? Carribean? etc

     Cheers!

     Lou Heavner - born again coonass in the heart of Tex-Mex country and
     winner of more jalapeno eating competitions than homebrewing
     competitions... :(


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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 12:48:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Rauchenfels

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Sir Jeff of Renner sez...

> Steinbier is an old style, but the Rauchenfels Brewery is only 17
> years old, and it's perhaps a less approachable style for the uniniated.

Oh, I don't know about that! Last year, I'd have agreed - nicely smokey.
This year, however, it was not smokey at all - making me wonder if it
wasn't brewed in a modern kettle instead of with white-hot rocks heated
over a wood fire. If you got the beer from the same run mine came
from, I'd say it's pretty approachable. Tasted more like Bitburger than
Rauchenfels...

 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 09:06:30 -0600
From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject: lemon peppers

Lynn & Mike Key ask:

>Planning to brew a partial mash lemon wheat beer. Haven't been able to find
>lemon extract so will instead use real lemons. How many lemons do I use for
>a 5.5 gal. batch of brew? Do I use just the juice or should I also throw in
>the rinds? Should I use lemon zest too? Do I add the lemons to the boiler or
>to the secondary? Thanks.

I made a lemon Wheat beer late last spring for consumption in the
hot summer sun.  It was a fairly standard wheat recipe (5 pounds 
pilsner malt, 5 pounds malted wheat, and low hopping rate for 
a 6-gallon batch).  I added the juice of 6 lemons when I bottled.
I just poured it in the bottling bucket with the priming solution, stirred, 
and bottled.  I used really big lemons (about 3-inches in diameter)
and juiced with a high powered  juice extractor 
(it's sort of like the Ronco Bass-a-Matic) so I got a lot of juice 
from each lemon.  If you squeeze by hand you might want to 
increase the number of lemons.  I didnt add any zest or peel or rind.

I was going for the kind of flavor you get when you go to a brew pub 
and you order a wheat beer and it comes with a slice of lemon.  Not real 
lemony but very noticeable.  I thought it turned out perfect.

+++++++

Hot sauce, good.  I saw something on TV about how tabasco was made. 
They mentioned that it was fermented and showed the inside of the 
factory (barn or whatever it is) where it is made.  Sure enough, row after 
row of wooden (oak, I believe) casks, laying on their sides happily brewing 
away.  You could see bright red pepper blow-off spewing from the bungs.

Now I have made my own hot sauces before but never tried to ferment 
them.  Has anyone ever tried this?  Any hints on how to go about it?




Paul Niebergall
Burns & McDonnell
pnieb at burnsmcd.com
"Illegitimis non carborundum"



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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 12:46:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Jesse Stricker <jds19 at duke.edu>
Subject: Re: Poor All-Grain Extraction


On January 12th, Patrick Flahie wrote:

> In HBD 3219, Jeff Renner and Brian Dixon both questioned Russ Hobaugh's
> addition of 1 tsp. of DME / gallon of distilled water in his all-grain
> batch.  I can say that Russ is not the only one out in TV Land that uses
> this practice (effective or not).  Ken Schwartz's presentation "Converting
> All-Grain Recipes to Extract / Partial Mash" (from the 1998 AHA Conference)
> suggests this practice as a no-fuss way to optimize water chemistry for
> mashing.  It states that mashing and sparging are sensitive to certain
> characteristics of water, and the addition of 1 Tbsp. of DME per gallon of
> distilled water provides for the right conditions for mashing and sparging
> without fussing with acids, salts, or pH measurements.
> 
> Since all-grain brewing is somewhat daunting to begin with, I made the
> choice to make it as simple as possible and follow Ken's tip.  However, I
> can't really comment on its effects on my efficiency.
> 
> If this water treatment practice is ineffective, are there any simple water
> tricks for those of us slowly working our way into all-grain brewing?
> 
> If anyone's interested, a copy of Ken's presentation can be found at
> http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer/.

	
	Yeah, me too.  I've just started brewing all-grain batches (I've
brewed four now, I think), and I use 1 tsp DME per quart of distilled
water.  I started doing this after reading Ken Schwartz' article (URL
given above).  I don't like using house water much and I've got a source
of distilled water, but if I'm brewing ale, I add some Burton salts.  I
probably should have spoken up earlier, but I was pretty busy at work this
week :)

	If I may take the liberty of paraphrasing Ken's article, distilled
water has almost no buffering capability and this amount of DME brings the
water to a nice acidic pH.  It's not the best way of doing things, but
it's dirt simple and cheap.  When I brew this weekend, I'll test the pH
and see if it actually works.  For what it's worth, my all-grain batches
have either tasted fine or had easily traceable problems in other areas. 
I get about 75% extraction using a Gott cooler, an Easymasher-type
juryrigged setup, and a decidedly casual approach to sparging (somewhere
between batch sparging and normal sparging). 

	I'll second Patrick's request for quick and easy water treatment 
tricks, though.  All-grain brewing is a bunch of fun, but there's so many 
refinements and variables, and it gets dark so early in winter, that I 
don't mind simplifying the process at all.

	I'll get back to the collective after this weekend.

	Jesse

- --
	Jesse Stricker				jds19 at acpub.duke.edu



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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 17:55:11 GMT
From: Bob.Sutton at Fluor.com (Bob Sutton)
Subject: Is it just me, or...

is the milk stout we globally brewed last spring completely awesome
!!!

I finally got around to tapping this keg - and its nectar is heavenly.
What a delight  <bg>

When we brewed this baby, I tasted some of the green brew as it was
kegged, and my initial reaction was ... yeeeeeeccccchh !!!

It was sweeter than the "iced tea" served here in the Carolinas....
ah... but what a difference aging and maturity bring. The confluence
of stout and lactose makes an excellent mid-winter beverage... and I'm
quite sure... reasonably so... that the non-fermentable lactose is
equally non-caloric... ;-)

I'd like to hear others opinions on the outcome of this batch.
Admittedly I was skeptical when I heard that the milk stout was chosen
for brewday - but... wow... this one is another to add to my repeat
list...  after the Dubbel this weekend...

Cheers - from the sawth carolina foothills...

Bob
Fruit Fly Brewhaus
Yesterdays' Technology Today


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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:31:24 -0800
From: "Bayer, Mark A" <Mark.Bayer at JSF.Boeing.com>
Subject: 400 year old techniques

collective homebrew conscience_

mark bunster wants to locate a keg of beer that is brewed essentially the
same way it was 400 years ago.

given the revolution in brewing in the 1800s that resulted from pasteur's
and hansen's work on yeast identification, culturing, and isolation, there
may well be only one surviving classic style that fits your description.

(i'll bet jim liddil knows what it is.)

finding a keg of lambic (or one of its substyles) would be a challenge, and
it would doubtless be very pricy. plus, if your taste preferences steer you
clear of weissbier, your quest might likely end in disappointment or
disillusionment (is that a word?).

ah, the good old days. warm, sour, infected beer...

brew hard,

mark bayer
stl mo


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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 12:53:56 -0600
From: "Paul Smith" <pksmith_morin at msn.com>
Subject: Gelatinization

Marc Sedam is quite right to correct my usage of "gelatinization" as the
dissolution of starch in mash liquor; it is instead the breakdown (enzymatic
or mechanical shear, e.g., by boiling, as in decoction) of the cell wall
surrounding starch cells within the endosperm, rendering the starch within
increasingly "friable" and thus more prone to liberation and enzymatic attack.
Mea culpa; I was lazy.

Much of this is indeed accomplished by respiration and germination processes
in the malthouse (as Marc points out), except for poorly modified malts, and
is in fact a measure of malt (starch) modification.  In poorly modified malts,
as in those with a low friability index or high coarse/fine extract
differences,  brewhouse methods, e.g., decoction, help to gelatinize the malt
to prepare the starch within for amylosis by a- and b-amylase.

However, Marc, (this too a small point) I could be wrong but I do not know of
any effect of b-amylase on the cell walls (primarily composed of
hemicelluloses and proteins).  Rather, it is primarily hemicellulases and
b-glucanases which are responsible for the cytolytic activity described above.
I would agree that, having been gelatinized, the starch within is now subject
to attack by (both a- and) b- amylase.

Anyway, thanks for the correction.  The bottom line is a finer grind will
allow for a higher extraction rate, and generally I do not not worry as much
about stuck sparges due to too fine a grind.  Unless there is a significantly
exaggerated percentage of fines/flour, or b-glucan gel formed from mash
procedure or cereal use (e.g., a high  % of flaked barley in the grist), I
would guess the most common reason among we brewers for a stuck sparge is
impatience - drawing off too fast, increasing the pressure differential, and
bringing the runoff to a standstill.   Grind fine, slow down, and drink beer.
Could be a new mating ritual.

Cheers everyone.

Paul Smith




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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 14:09:25 -0500 (EST)
From: mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil (Jeff McNally)
Subject: VERY old can of Bud

Hi All,

  A good friend of mine gave me a very old, full, can of Budweiser
last night (*way* beyond it's born-on-date).

  It is one of the old style steel cans that needs to be opened
with a "church key".

  On the front of the can it says:

   "brewed and canned at Newark, NJ, USA by
             Anheuser-Busch, Inc.
       St. Louis - Newark - Los Angeles"  

  So it seems that at the time this beer was brewed/canned, A-B
had only three breweries (in the US anyway).

  Also, printed on the bottom of the can is the code "D332".

  Does anyone know how to de-cipher this code?

  Any ideas/guesses as to how old this can is?

  Any ideas/guesses as to what this may be worth (and no, it's
not for sale)?

                                           Hoppy brewing,

                                           Jeff


==========================================================================

Geoffrey A. McNally                  Phone:  (401) 832-1390
Mechanical Engineer                  Fax:    (401) 832-7250
Naval Undersea Warfare Center        email:
Systems Development Branch              mcnallyg at gam83.npt.nuwc.navy.mil
Code 8321; Bldg. 1246/2              WWW:
Newport, RI  02841-1708                 http://www.nuwc.navy.mil/


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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 14:03:18 -0500
From: Mark_Ohrstrom/Humphrey_Products at humphreypc.com
Subject: Arrogance, Ignorance, Science and Human Fraility

I thought that I had made my one and only statement on GMOs, but then
returned from a trip to find that my post had been used -- besmirchingly,
at that -- to make a point:

> From: Demonick
>
>Much of the discussion - way OT - concerning genetically modified
>organisms has taken the following distrustful, motive besmirching,
>science-bashing tone:
>
>>From: Mark_Ohrstrom/Humphrey_Products at humphreypc.com
>>GMOs: Another Great Idea From the Same Folks Who Gave Us
>>     Kudzu and Nuclear Power and Love Canal and DDT and Y2K and ...

>(I am not singling out Mark with my ire.  There is no ire here.
>I'm simply using his comment as a representative sound bite.)

Domenick, if you can find ANY besmirching, science-bashing points in my
post, you have quite an imagination (unless, of course, you are an admirer
of bad science).  You continue on with a laundry list of Miracles of Modern
Living (like indoor plumbing ...), and a truly touching story.  Yet, you
fail, utterly, to address ANY of the issues raised in my "sound bite"
(Echoes of "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!")  BTW,
Domenick, take a look at the points where AIDS entered the blood products
supply, and there you will find a good measure of greed and arrogance.

History has taught us to be distrustful, and we have earned the right.  It
is a correct and healthy response to long experience.  We are not as
willing to be led blindly by the Wizards and High Priests as we once were,
or to accept their assurances that all is under control.  No one has ever
eliminated the human factor from our technologies (hey now, *there's* a
subject for genetic modification!)

When the "oopsie" occurs (and inevitably, it will), whether through the
same arrogance of the Ignorant -- or is it the ignorance of the Arrogant?
- -- that created the past, and ongoing, catastrophes of "science", what
then?  Who bears the cost?  It has the POTENTIAL to be huge.  Or, is this
just the price we are expected to pay for indoor plumbing, Domenick?

I invite any response, or flames (take yer best shot!) to be made outside
of the HBD (address all legal actions to Martin C. Basch, Esq.)  This issue
won't be resolved here, afterall.  Sorry to take the bandwidth.  Just had
to vent ... Who pulled the pin on this grenade, anyway?

Time to brew some beer ...

Mark in Kalamazoo




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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:24:16 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff at netcom.com>
Subject: Re: How much of an OG is Unfermentable?

"H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com> aks:
Re: How much of an OG is Unfermentable?
> It is generally held that certain grains and adjuncts
> contribute to 'mouthfeel' by providing compounds which
> yeast will not ferment.  These substances contribute
> to the gravity of a wort but are not 'fermented out'
> thereby resulting in a higher FG.  Is there a 'list'
> of the non-fermentable gravity contribution of these
> grains/adjuncts?  Huuummm

I'm still trying to get a better grip on the exact sequence and
details of the process I've been doing by rote for so many years.
Last month, about seven and a half years after brewing my first batch
of beer, I finally got around to reading the "Advanced Homebrewing"
section of Papazian's _The Joy of Homebrewing_, which discusses the
chemistry and biology of the brewing process in depth, specifically
covering these issues.

Good reading and a good reminder that it's worth your time to go back
and take a second look at the book after getting some experience under
your belt. 

Unfortunately, while this section was clearly written, it was from the
point of view of going through the process.  You have to deduce the
proper measures to take to achieve what you want by reverse
engineering it.  It'd be nice to have something that covers it from
both angles, from the point of view of the process and from the point
of view of how to tweak the process.

For example, if I'm recalling this correctly, the book talks about
adjuncts in the first few pages of this section, then it gets into the
chemistry/biology and talks about enzymes breaking the starch down
into sugar and dextrins.  The the enzymes tackle the longer sugar
molecules and break them down into shorter molecules so the yeast can
convert to alcohol.  This section also talks about the water content
and the ph level and the temperatures, etc.  The end result is that
you have two substances, sugar of which the yeast can convert to
alcohol, and dextrin which contributes to "mouthfeel".

However, different enzymes do different parts of the job, and they
like different temperatures and PH levels.  So to tweak the alcohol
level and the mouthfeel, you have to not only add starch sources to
the mash, you have to tweak the PH level and the enyzyme level (by
using 2-row or 6-row malt; one, 6-row I believe, has more enzymes so
you can use it with adjuncts and the mash will have extra enzymes to
munch on the starch), and you have to encourage one enzyme or the
other by tweaking how long you keep it at each temperature.

Can somebody recommend a good "step-by-step process" directed
reference on these topics?

Also, I've about finished editing together the responses people sent
to me last month on "scaling up", but I still have some questions I
want to send to people.  I'll be putting the finished summary on a web
page sometime in the next week or so.  A lot of the responses included
side comments or references to things I haven't seen before (like a
hopback).  Can somebody point me at a web page that provides an
exhaustive list of the steps in doing an all-grain mash?  And a good
glossary of terms?

(Our old copy of the Papazian book went through a few worth baths, so
the copy I just read was the "new complete" version, the section I'm
talking about is around page 250.)

Steven J. Owens
puff at netcom.com


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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 15:06:20 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: Handling Charge

I just can not see why Sears, K-mart, and most every food store is willing
to sell me merchandise without any handling charges. Heck, most of them
supply me with a nice carrying bag. Some bags are custom printed with
handles! To top it all off, they even provide me with FREE parking, FREE air
conditioning, and in some cases FREE music. 

Ok, thank goodness my wife never reads the HBD!!!! 

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu
http://members.xoom.com/rlabor/



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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:39:03 GMT
From: Bob.Sutton at Fluor.com (Boob Sutton)
Subject: Boy - am I hosed...

#%&)(&#  !!!

Good grief Charley Brown...

I spent this week carefully nurturing my starter through several
feedings in anticipation of a Dubbel feeding frenzy and YIKES  - I'm
short 6 pounds of Pilsener 2-row.

Last week I received grain, adjuncts, hops and  yeast for this run -
and I rechecked the invoice before refrigerating the yeast and hops -
everything seemed in order  - EXCEPT - I didn't check to see that the
invoice actually corresponded to what I ordered }:-0

Instead of 7 pounds of 2-row, I only had one...

And there ain't no LBS within an hours drive.... so... I need to put
the yeasties into hibernation for a week.

According to the HBD archives, I've cobbled together the following:

1. Refrigerate the entire starter until a day before it will be
used... then
2.Gently bring the starter back to "room temperature" (i.e. take it
out of the fridge)
3. Decant the supernatant, and re-nourish the yeast with additional
DME.
4. ~24 hours later (or at high krausen)... inoculate the fermentor.

Any comments... IMBR...

Brewless in sawth carolina,
Bob

Fruit Fly Brewhaus
Yesterdays' Technology Today


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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:40:47 -0800
From: "Eric R. Theiner" <logic at skantech.com>
Subject: Hot Sauce and Homebrew

I find it most conducive to a good hot sauce to drink a few homebrews
while making them (see, I'm on topic!).

WARNING!!  Chile oil can burn your hands and fingers when you're working
with high caliber peppers.  Wear surgical gloves.

One of my most (in)famous stories is about how I got my hands into my
pepper jelly when I first starting cooking with fire.  I was in moderate
pain (like a sunburn) for 2 hours, then I needed to pee.  I was VERY
careful, thought I managed to avoid all contact, but....  I won't draw
you a picture, but it was very unpleasant.

Rick





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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 17:25:10 -0600
From: hal <hwarrick at springnet1.com>
Subject: LEMON BREW

Why use real lemons. There is a product called
"real lemon" that is just lemon juice. Check out your local store.
Maybe try just a small bottle.

Hal



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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:05:01 -0800
From: Joe Kish <jjkish at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: The Valley Mill

I bought a Valley Mill upgrade kit consisting of
ball-bearing replacment blocks.  I paid $25.00
plus $4.00 shipping.
 Now, I find that I don't need it.  Anybody need
an upgrade kit?   Make offer.
   Joe Kish


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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:22:28 -0800
From: "Keith Christian" <kchris1 at lausd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: O2 Pickup from crash cooling

			
		HBDers,

I know it is important to not have any O2 pickup 
during rackings.  But I am wondering if there is 
much O2 pickup  when crash cooling a carboy of 
beer from 68F to 40F.  Does the beer draw in 
gasses when cooling?    If so, we will be having 
oxidized  beer for the Super Bowl Game..

What do you think?

Keith
Chatsworth CA







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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 22:36:48 -0500
From: mchahn at earthlink.net
Subject: Brewer's Notebook 2.0

Anyone ever used this software from Saranac for Macintosh? Ever used it on
an iMac? Anyone know of any other brewing software for iMac? Private emails
welcome.


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Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 00:08:39 EST
From: Lostboy676 at aol.com
Subject: phalse bottom plumming

I seem to remember someone posting a web address that explained ( and had a 
diagram ) how to plum a 10 gal gott cooler w/PVC. I have tried to search the 
archives w/no success. If someone has any ideas on how I can find it, I would 
appreciate hearing from you. E-mail is welcome.
                Dave


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Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 05:23:53 +0000
From: William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Priming Question

In the past I brewed all ale recipes.  When I bottled these recipes I used
3/4 corn sugar per 5 gallons, with the beer temperature between 62F and 70F,
depending on the temperature in my basement at different times of the year.
This amount of priming sugar always gave beers with very large heads,
sometimes too large.

I'm now brewing some lager recipes with the first batch lagering at 35F.
Beer at this temperature will hold more CO2 than the ale recipes fermented
at room temperature.  I'm concerned that if I add 3/4 cup corn sugar to the
cold lagers I will end up with beer that is over carbonated.

I have Homebrewing, Volume I by Al Korzonas.  This book gives a very nice
table with the amounts of corn sugar to add to beer at various temperatures
to achieve various volumes of CO2.  I'm sure Al's numbers are right on but I
would appreciate some input from others that brew lagers and prime with corn
sugar.  

I'm mainly interested in German Helles and Pils beers.  TIA for your input.

        Bill Frazier
        Johnson County, Kansas



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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 21:58:44 -0800
From: Jeff Hall <hallj at targen.com>
Subject: dry beer

Some time ago I brewed a HoneyWheat per a regular recipe I have.  However,
because
of moving and the holidays, I didn't bottle this beer until over three
months after I
brewed it.  Around five weeks later, I sampled a bottle, and it was FLAT!
And sweet.
I used Nottingham yeast on this particular batch.  I happened to be racking
a batch of
Hefeweizen from the primary to the secondary on the same day that I
discovered this
honeywheat to be flat.  My first thought was to dump the honeywheat, but I
decided
to risk a few cents on new bottle caps and try to salvage the batch.  I
popped them
all open, added a few drops of Weinstephen slurry to each bottle, and
recapped.  Wow.
A week or two later, I had near champagne.  Highly carbonated, huge head,
dry as
hell.  I didn't care for it much, but I'm wondering if combining yeast
strains results
in the two strains using fermentables that one strain alone would not act
upon.  I have
also read that you can leave beer in a secondary fermentation for an
extended time
and not have trouble with it at bottling time.  This experience would lead
me to think
that this is incorrect.
Second question- When using Wyeast 2112 California common, what are the best
temperatures to primary, secondary, and lager at?  I have no brew fridge, so I
either use my indoor brew storage space (70 F) or outdoor space (30-50 F).
Thanks for helping.

Jeff Hall, Seattle




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Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 02:44:30 -0500
From: "George de Piro" <gdepiro at mindspring.com>
Subject: water treatment made easy

Hi all,

Patrick Flahie writes, regarding adding DME (Dry Malt Extract) to deionized
brew water:

"If this water treatment practice is ineffective, are there any simple water
tricks for those of us slowly working our way into all-grain brewing?"

The easiest thing to do is nothing at all, except for carbon filtration to
remove chlorine.  Unless your tap water is unusually horrible, there are
probably a wide range of beer styles it is appropriate for.

Get an analysis from your water department to learn the concentrations of
the ions in the water.  Based on that you can decide if you would like to
adjust the water to match a particular locality famous for the style you are
brewing.

All-grain brewing is really quite easy and does not require elaborate
knowledge of water chemistry.  Just keep it simple.

Have fun!

George de Piro

C.H. Evans Brewing Company
at the Albany Pump Station
(518)447-9000
http://evansale.com (under construction)

Malted Barley Appreciation Society
Homebrew Club
http://hbd.org/mbas



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Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 23:56:19 -0800
From: "Brian D." <briandixon at home.com>
Subject: Re: Burst sparging

Jim,

I don't know about the term "burst sparging", but since I am a simple brewer
who just pours his hot sparge water out of a measuring cup through a
collander over the grain in the lauter tun, I just considered this to be
"normal sparging".  I let it run out slowly until the grain bed is just
showing, and then add enough hot sparge water until there is about 2" of
water above the grain, then repeat.  No biggy.  Short of having a system
that trickles (or drop'lls) water over the grain bed at a constant rate, I
assumed this is how everyone does it.  I get about 70% yield and my beer
turns out quite well (won a silver medal recently, so it can't be all that
bad.)

Brian




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Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 07:37:05 -0600
From: crossno <crossno at tnns.net>
Subject: Re: Burst sparging

>until your grain bed is nearly visible, then dump your 
>sparge water on top of the grain bed until 2-3 inches 
>of water column is achieved.  Allow it to runoff slowly, 
>until the grain bed is again visible, and repeat to 
>completion of your sparge.
>Has anyone tried this method, and if so, were you successful?

I had no idea it was a "method".  Just seemed like the best way to keep
the heat in the cooler.  Being a gadgeter wanbe, I sometime want the
gadget but don't take time to make it, I have been doing this since I
started all grain brewing 4+ years ago.  My efficiency is not great.  I
have never gotten over 100% :-(    

By Suds my efficiency is 68 to 82% depending on how much I fuss with the
homemade mill.  (It needs an overhaul too).  I sometimes use the "burst
sparge" sort of like a batch sparge.  I'll top up with water stir and
let sit before restarting the sparge.  

The only times I've had slow run off has been the times I've let the
grain bed get to cool and had rye or wheat as a major portion of the
grist.

Glyn Crossno
Estill Springs,  TN
Rennerian: Way down south
- -- 
Heroes are the people who do what has to be done when it needs to be
done, regardless of the consequences.


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Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 08:36:42 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: burst sparging

In HBD #3222, Jim Welsh asked about "burst sparging".

At last, there is a name for it. This is the only way I have ever sparged
(200+ batches). If I'm maxing out my system capacity, the "burst" may only
be 1-2" deep. If I'm making a smaller, lower gravity batch, the "burst" may
be 8-10" deep. never had a problem, and I regularly get 30 to 33 pts/#/gal.
(And yes, I use a non-adjustable Maltmill!) I also use a Phils Phalse
bottom, and I've never seen it "phloat".

The way I've always figured, if you have extra space above the grain bed in
your lauter tun, use it. The more water in there, the more time you have to
clean up other stuff before you have to add water again. I do believe that
you get your best extraction by letting the water go all the way down to
the surface of the grain bed before adding more, although I'm not overly
anal about it.



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---