---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  STONE (Stein) Beer (TKBFRED)
  Rodenbach Alexander ("Todd & Sherrel Crane")
  Saflager Yeast / Brewing Water (Tony Barnsley)
  Dextrins and mouthfeel - RIP ("Paul Smith")
  Yeast harvesting ("Dan Senne")
  Calif Ale Yeast Slurry (from a Stout, to a Porter)? ("Darrell Leavitt")
  overnight mashing ("Ratkiewich, Peter")
  Trappist Light (question) ("Darrell Leavitt")
  re-using yeast (my last question ....for today!) ("Darrell Leavitt")
  Bottling Day/Invert Sugar/Motor+Mill (Matthew Comstock)
  RE: Stuck Easy Masher.... (MaltHound)
  Wyeast Kolsch 2565 off-flavor ("Lewis, Tim                 HS")
  Efficiency vs.Yield (MaltHound)
  Dextrines ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  Overnight mash (Dave Burley)
  Re:Ginger Beer Recipes (Lynhbrew)
  Re: false bottom (patrick finerty)
  use of caustic as sanitizer (Suds2468)
   ("Dave Hinrichs")
  Color approximation (Brian Pickerill)
  RE: Stuck Easy Masher.... (Jonathan Peakall)
  hop storage?? (J Daoust)
  Practical Brewer download & quality ("Doug Moyer")
  Re: Color; Overnight Mashing ("G. M. Remake")
  Waters of the World (Brad Miller)
  Batch/Burst/Fly Sparging--Gott Cooler Setup (Kirk.Fleming)
  RE: Saflager Yeast ("Nigel Porter")
  Dextrin vs Protein for mouth feel (RCAYOT)
  conditioning temps and dry hopping temperatures ("Czerpak, Pete")
  stir plates ("Dana H. Edgell")
  RE: STUCK SPARGE; Wyeast 1187; Grain bed depth; O'fest lagering (RiedelD)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 00:26:33 EST
From: TKBFRED at aol.com
Subject: STONE (Stein) Beer

Fellow Brewers:

I'm looking for information on Stone Beer, i.e., what Stones are
used, Brewing Process, Fermentation, all sort of that nature.
If one of you can help, you can contact me via Email (tkbfred at aol.com),
or fax to me at: (602) 241 -0142.
Thanks for your help.
Fred M. Scheer


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Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:39:46 -0700
From: "Todd & Sherrel Crane" <thecranes at uswest.net>
Subject: Rodenbach Alexander

I received the following letter from a good friend who works for New Belgium
Brewing Co.  Sense this is a brewing forum I thought it was worth posting.

>It has come to my attention of the intention of Palm to discontinue
Rodenbach Alexander from production. To those of us who love this brew it is
a devastating idea.  So I ask myself, can I do anything about this?
Probably not, but then I ask myself, can I not  do anything about this, and
again the answer is no.  So maybe we  can do something together.  Please
contact Palm and tell them that they are making a grave mistake.  Is the
beer industry now driven by money?      Such an accomplishment in brewing
should be cherished and nurtured, not scrutinized with demographics and
sales figures.  I know first hand that once a beer is gone, the reasons for
it's demise are forgotten and nostalgia sets in, people come out of the
woodwork and protest their undying love for the beer, but it's too late.  It
may seem silly to some, but is it worth losing loyal customers by
discontinuing a brand instead of slowing the production levels and
schedules.  Enough crying, if you enjoy Alexander, please tell the people at
Palm so; tell them that you are not ready for them to throw away such a
standard of excellence.  Please forward this or write to AS MANY people as
you can possibly think of and ask them/plead with them to write, call, fax,
email Palm and ask them for Alexander's reprieve.  This could just be the
beginning of more cut-backs, Grand Cru may be next.
Thank you, Lauren Woods
PR at palm-nv.be
Brouwerij Palm N.V.
P.R. Department- Peter Buelens
Steenhuffeldorp 3
B-1840 Steenhuffel
tel: 052/31.74.67
fax: 052/31.23.44

Todd Crane
thecranes at uswest.net





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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 09:41:27 -0000
From: Tony Barnsley <tony.barnsley at blackpool.gov.uk>
Subject: Saflager Yeast / Brewing Water 

SafLager does seen to ferment cleanly around 65F, but I was brewing a
Rauchbier ad so any 'odd' flavours may have been masked. The Web site URL
for DCL is IRRC

http://www.dcl.com But it could be http://www.dcl.co.uk

- --------------------

If you are using Distilled water you will need to add some minerals back.
One way to do it is to mix in some normal water to give the profile you
want. I use promash to decide how much to add, along with various salts and
it works well

In an all grain batch with distilled water, I wouldn't attempt to use any
acid as the grain will buffer the mash pH. To adjust the sparge water
assuming distilled as a base, then dilute 1 in 10 with distilled water and
then use that to adjust you mash liquor using a pH meter. Add it 1ml at a
time and stir until the ph meter reads 6 or just below.

- --

Wassail!

The Scurrilous Aleman
Schwarzbad Lager Braueri, Blackpool, Lancs, UK
Reply To Aleman At brewmaster Dot demon Dot co Dot uk


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 04:46:06 -0600
From: "Paul Smith" <pksmith_morin at msn.com>
Subject: Dextrins and mouthfeel - RIP

I would like to let the Dextrin and proteolysis thing go.  I think that Dave
and I are in closer agreement on this than it would appear.  The substantial
position statement appears to be thus:

I believe that dextrins probably contribute something to mouthfeel, and I have
not yet seen evidence (experientially or by study)otherwise; I believe their
contribution is largely subsumed to medium-molecular weight proteins and
b-glucans; I further believe that because much of the high-molecular weight
protein degradation (to other products, such as medium-molecular weight
proteins) occurs in the malthouse, the role of mash-engineered proteolysis is
substantially minimized over yesteryear, when malt was simply not as well
modified.

Dave categorically denies that dextrins contribute anything to mouthfeel, as
indicated by his original statement that:

>>But if Charlie is the origin
of Steve's concept that dextrins contribute
to mouthfeel, he's wrong...

And, like me, Dave refers to texts such as M & Bs and DeClerck to bolster his
arguments since then.

The issue has spurred a concern I have long had, and so I have a larger
question I wish to ask of the community; it goes to methodology.

I am not a research scientist.  One gripe I have with myself, or Dave, or
anyone, for that matter, is in the use of brewing texts as Bibles in answering
real-world quandaries about brewing.  I grant that  knowledge is derivative
(that which we know we derive from other knowledge and build upon to build new
knowledge), and every day we move through life with a given set of assumptions
we embrace, based on "known facts or authority." This is as it needs to be, if
we're to get through the day without paralysis from seeking the answer to the
minutae of normal existence.

However, I do think this poses a potential trap in this forum. To simply read
and quote M & Bs or Kunze or DeClerck as "manna from heaven" feels inadequate,
to me.  Anybody can read.  But unless I take Dave's assumptions, or he mine,
or any of us anything we read, and go to the lab to test the theor(ies), we
know  nothing more, except that "(x) says this," and so on.

We are not lawyers, we are brewers.  It is a lawyer's job to prove a point by
eloquent argument, lending credence to that argument by reference to case law
or civil statutes.  To use the same methodology, by quoting a given text (a
"sin" I am obviously guilty of) is less than satisfactory.

As brewers, we want to make a better product, through direct, experiential
examination, and, where our knowledge (and the ability to test that knowledge)
is limited, through reliance on others.   I  believe only the former has
truly persuasive power.

Where am I going with  this?  I think all of us would do well to avoid
sweeping, categorical statements affirming or denying the truth of a
particular assumption unless we have done the work, in the lab,  ourselves.
There is very little in this world that I know of which is absolute, and
brewing is certainly no exception. To quote text, to make "points" by quoting
texts, is something which may rouse further study or pique curiosity (or win
lawsuits); but it does not establish the truth.


Paul




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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 07:02:26 -0600
From: "Dan Senne" <dsenne at intertek.net>
Subject: Yeast harvesting

Could anyone explain the proceedure for washing and storing yeast using
distilled water?
Can this be used to harvest yeast from the slurry at the bottom of the
primary after transfering the beer to the secondary?
Thanks,
Dan Senne
Collinsville IL





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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:12:25 -0400
From: "Darrell Leavitt"<Darrell_Leavitt at sln.esc.edu>
Subject: Calif Ale Yeast Slurry (from a Stout, to a Porter)?


I just bottled a "California Malted Oat Stout" (tasted wonderful, and I
will send the all-grain recipe to anyone who might like it),...saved a
substantial amount of slurry (perhaps 500-700 ml) and wish to make a
Porter.  I have heard the view that one should make darker brews when you
re-pitch...and wonder will this be ok going to a Porter......

Also, if anyone has a good Anchor-sort-of-Porter recipe that they'd wish to
share I'd love to have it.

 ..Darrell
<Plattsburgh, NY>




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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:19:00 -0500
From: "Ratkiewich, Peter" <PRATKIEWICH at ci.westport.ct.us>
Subject: overnight mashing

Randy wrote:
"Does anyone know of any problems with mashing while you sleep?  It sure
saves on the length of the brew day.  What problems might occur if the mash
is left for 6 - 8 hours?"

My partner and I have done two overnight mashes in the past three years.
The first was a coffee porter, the second a six grain stout.  In both cases
we were looking for a high extraction, and a short brew day.  The coffee
porter had trouble fermenting, but we're pretty sure that was due to the
high amount of coffee we used, not the overnight mash.  In retrospect, now
that it's laid down for a year, the stout is really one of the best that
we've made.  Aside from recipe specifics, this is what we did in both cases:

Bring water to strike in temperature while grinding grain and setting up the
brewhaus, the night before brew day.  We strike in generally around 8-9PM by
the time we're ready, (it's really not critical).  After stirring in the
grist we stabilize the temperature.  With this single infusion method we
shoot for a higher strike in temp of around 154-156 degrees knowing that the
temperature will drop below 150 overnight.  Once everything is fully mashed,
we shut down the burners, put the cover on, and wrap the heck out of the
mash tun with insulated moving blankets and duct tape.  Then it's off to
bed.  When we come in the next morning, temperatures have dropped into the
144-147 degree range depending on the ambient room temperature.  We
immediately begin to mash out.  Using this method we were cleaned up and
closed out by noontime on brew day.

I wouldn't use this method for every brew, but it seems to me that with
higher gravity ales that have complicated grain bills, the overnight mash
seems to really meld the various flavours nicely.  I'm sure that there may
be others out there that disagree or might identify problems with an
overnight mash, so this should be interesting......



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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:26:24 -0400
From: "Darrell Leavitt"<Darrell_Leavitt at sln.esc.edu>
Subject: Trappist Light (question)


I recently brewed a "Trappist Light".  I was interested in the Trappist ale
flavor, but wanted to make it lighter in alcohol than many (and another I
just bottled  at  8.9 % ABW!).  I was surprised that the resultant brew tasted
much like a Hefe....and wonder if this is common?

Here is the recipe:

2lb maris Otter 2 row
4lb Halcyon 2 row
2 lb Malted Oats
1lb Flaked Wheat

3 gal water, strike temp ~170, beta rest  at  148 for 1 hour; alpha rest  at  156
for 30 min

first runnings were 1.070
OG=1.044
FG=1.008

3/4 ox Willamette  at  start
1/4 oz Willamette  at  30
1/4 oz Willammette  at  15

chilled and pitched a vile of WhiteLabs WLP500 Trappist Ale Yeast

kept the temp below 65F

Anybody know why this tastes like a "half-a-hefe"?

 ..Darrell




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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:35:11 -0400
From: "Darrell Leavitt"<Darrell_Leavitt at sln.esc.edu>
Subject: re-using yeast (my last question ....for today!)


ok, I promise that this will be my last post (today)....soooo many
questions!

 I have been re-using my yeast lately and am finding (consistent with the
discussions here of the size of a starter) that my second brew is generally
excellent...while the first one is just , well, good.  Now the question: am
I pushing it ot try to reuse the yesties a third time?  I think that I am
paying good attention to sanitation and such,...but even so, am I risking
not just infection, but also having a "mutant brew".....

 ...Darrell




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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 05:48:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: Bottling Day/Invert Sugar/Motor+Mill

Howdy,

In my last post a few weeks back, I described the
bottling day from hell. You'll be happy to know
the bottling session last weekend was without
incident.  Of course my wife was constantly
reminding me of the *last time* and I deserved
it.

For some reason, I've got "Invert Sugar" on my
mind.  Invert sugar is the product of acid
hydrolysis of sucrose (table sugar), to give
glucose and fructose.  That sounds a lot like
honey to me.  In the /techbroch.pdf file listed
below, the USDA average sample of honey contains:

Fructose: 38.2%
Glucose: 31.0%
Water: 17.1%
Maltose: 7.2%
Trisaccharides and higher carbohydrates (oh no,
my protein diet): 4.2%
Sucrose: 1.5%
Minerals, vitamins, enzymes: 0.5%

I've used honey in many recipes, including my
favorite - a honey ginger ale.  There is a lot of
interesting information available in the links
below:

Honey:
http://www.nhb.org
http://www.honey.com/
http://www.nhb.org/download/factsht/techbroch.pdf

Honey in beer:
http://www.honey.com/recipes/beer/index.html
and links therein.
http://www.nhb.org/download/factsht/home_brew.pdf

That's cool.  But I digress.  So sucrose gives
you cidery beer?  Honey works great in my
experience.  How's invert sugar? It seems like it
should work a lot like honey? I found a posted
discussion in the hbd archives, 1999 (AlK was
involved somehow - search for "invert sugar").  I
think common recipes for invert sugar were called
into question.  The conclusion seemed to be - why
bother trying to make invert sugar?  You only get
partial hydrolysis of sucrose with existing
recipes anyway and yeast can rip sucrose apart
just fine.  Does anyone have more info and
experience about the use invert sugar in brewing?

Common thread about motorizing malt mills.  I
bought a used phil-mill with a welded-on handle. 
Does anyone PLEASE have some ideas on how I can
motorize this thing with my drill.  My (slave
labor) kids will thank you.

Have a happy

Matt Comstock in Cincinnati, OH.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 09:01:38 EST
From: MaltHound at aol.com
Subject: RE: Stuck Easy Masher....

In a message dated 1/24/2000 11:16:30 PM Central Standard Time, 
homebrew-request@hbd.org writes:
In HBD3231 
Todd, AKA << DawgDoctor at aol.com>> asks:
 
 "Anyone ever had problems with a stuck sparge using an Easy Masher?  This is 
 my second try with the Gott Cooler version and second stuck sparge. I 
crushed 
 with the JSP mill.  I collected my first 2 gallons at full flow, poured it 
 back in to filter, collected a second 2 gallons of very clear wort at full 
 flow, then suddenly, STUCK SPARGE. "

I'd wager your problem is the "full flow" part.  You are compacting the grain 
bed due to the hydrostatic suction when running off this fast.  You really 
only want to start your run off no faster than you will run off while 
sparging.  Try it and see if that doesnt make life easier.

Regards,
Fred Wills
Londonderry, NH


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 09:02:44 -0500
From: "Lewis, Tim HS" <tim.lewis at hs.utc.com>
Subject: Wyeast Kolsch 2565 off-flavor

Dan Lyga wrote wondering about off flavors with Wyeast Kolsch 2565.  I
brewed 2 Kolsch's that also seemed to have the same problem. I was thinking
that this taste was astringency from sparging the specialty grains too hot,
or some other water related problem, but even using spring water and
watching sparge temp. on the second batch there is still an off flavor.
I've also had similar problems with similar yeasts like 1338 and 1007.  I'm
concluding that maybe some styles are not meant to be with homebrew, at
least not with extract/specialty grains. 

Tim Lewis
Enfield, CT


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 09:17:56 EST
From: MaltHound at aol.com
Subject: Efficiency vs.Yield

Fellow beer-nuts,

Lately there have been a number of posts regarding the supposed efficiency of 
this equipment or that procedure, etc.  People make claims that they have xx% 
efficiency when doing this or that...  One difficulty in establishing 
meaningful "efficiency" numbers is that you need to establish what 100% is.  
Since we all tend to guestimate what that figure is based on what we've read 
here and there, one man's 90% efficiency could actually be *lower* than 
another man's 80%.   

I hereby propose that for homebrewing purposes (and HBD communication) we 
institute a standard of quoting yield in a points per pound format instead.  
Certainly everyone knows that you will get different pts/lb for different 
ingredients, but it really is a simpler and more effective way of comparing 
yield results.  I find in my own brewing that even with the addition of some 
quantity of lower yield ingredients (crystal malts, etc.), since the 
precentage of these in the mash is relatively small, the total batch yield is 
still fairly consistent and predictable. 

Regards,
Fred Wills
Londonderry, NH


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 09:34:09 -0500
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: Dextrines

Dave states:
>>"The calorific food value of beer
is principally due to the ethanol
and unfermented carbohydrates,
but it is doubtful whether the latter
contribute to any other beer character,
although glycoproteins may act as
foam stabilizers."

I find no evidence that dextrins
contribute to mouth fullness.<<

  Try tasting a Coors Lite against a regular Coors.
Quite a change in mouthfeel. With a simple addition
of amyloglucosidase to break down the dextrines to
lower the caloric content, the mouthfeel, low as it is,
almost totally disappears.
  Since dextrines aren't sweet, and don't contribute to
mouthfeel, what is the point of a 158 rest to maximize
dextrine production?
  Some anectdotal evidence, I was making tea and inadvertently
spooned in some malto-dextrine instead of corn sugar.
That cup of tea certainly had quite a bit of mouthfeel
compaired to a "normal" cup.

>>I point out that British malts have
always been highly modified. So
Paul's ( and others in the past)
implication that somehow we
cannot effect proteolysis in the
mash because the malts are
already highly modified is incorrect.<<

Huh? that just doesn't follw any logic I know of.
I agree we can effect proteolysis in the mash;
you can over-modify Brit malt and destroy
head retention, but you must have been in a hurry
there and left out a line or two.

Pondering in Pittsburgh,
     Del



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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:11:13 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Overnight mash

Brewsters:

Randy Billmeier asks if overnight
mashing is OK. Check the HBD archives
for a lot of discussion on this.

Dave Line I believe was a proponent of this
with his thermostatically controlled "Bruheat"
bucket. Keeping an infusion mash at 150+ with
British malt shouldn't be a problem . Problems
may arise when your unheated mash falls
into the 100-110F area. Thermophilic bacteria
like lactobacillus, if still around,  may love it.
- -----------------------------
Harry Grier asks about making a ginger beer.
As far as I know, Ginger Beer is like Ginger Ale.
Neither contain alcohol to any extent. At least 
not in today's world.

That's not to say they couldn't and you
probably wouldn't go too far wrong adding
some ginger extract,  from quickly boiling
some crushed ginger, to taste to one of your
lagers or blond ales before bottling.
- ---------------------------
Like John Lifer in Indonesia, I have come
across ice cubes in beer in the Philippine
jungles.  I also refused to have ice in my
beer for the obvious intestinal reasons and
I just don't like it. But I asked for a small
container to hold the bottle and some
ice and told them I liked my ice on
the outside. They were a little amused,
when told what I said, but cooperared fully.

My old US golf partner always had ice in his
beer. But then he drank Miller Lite, so diluting
it didn't hurt and may have even helped!
- ----------------------------

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:15:48 EST
From: Lynhbrew at aol.com
Subject: Re:Ginger Beer Recipes

In a message dated 1/25/00 5:16:30 AM GMT Standard Time, 
homebrew-request@hbd.org writes:

<< From: "Harry & Kat" <grb2980 at cyber-south.com>
 Subject: Ginger Beer
 
 My mother had a ginger beer in New Zealand about three years ago.  It was in
 a bottle, not draft.  She can't remember the name of it or the brewery.  She
 has asked me to recreate it.  Any information or ideas about this brew would
 be helpful.
 
 Harry Grier , Dothan Alabama,  grb2980 at cyber-south.com >>

Harry, I have had some success with Ginger Beers. It depends on what you are 
trying to get for a flavor profile. Does your mother remember anything more 
about the beer like color, lingering sweetness, aroma, alcohol level, 
carbonation. What made her really like the beer. If you know this you can 
probably formulte a recipe tocome close. 

I have brewed both ale and lager versions. I felt that the Lager was more 
succesful in giving a clean ginger flavor. It is a very, very  (almost 
frightenly) low alcohol brew. The key to the success with this beer is using 
very fresh ginger that has good flavor. I recommend visiting an Asian grocery 
market if you have one nearby for your ginger. The recipe is the Carib Shandy 
Lager recipe in Clone Brews (Tess and Mark Szamatulski. When I made it I 
increased the crystal maltand added some special B and honey to get a 
starting gravity of 1.030. 

Also, it does not take a huge amount of ginger to get good flavor. I 
generally use around 2oz of fresh grated ginger added during the last 15 
minutes of the boil. 

Good luck,
Lyn Howard, lynhbrew at aol.com


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:44:16 -0500 (EST)
From: patrick finerty <zinc at zifi.psf.sickkids.on.ca>
Subject: Re: false bottom

Tim inquires about building or having built for him a copper manifold.
while i will not volunteer to build it, here is some useful
information. also, before building this i had never soldered copper
before so this can't be that hard!

to make your own manifold using 1/2 in copper pipe, you will need the
following equipment:

1/2 in. copper pipe (6 ft is plenty)
1/2 in. 90 and T fittings
propane torch (~$6-12 at a hardware store)
solder and flux (mine were sold together in one pkg)
hack saw 
copper pipe cutting tool ($5 Cdn at Home Depot)

here's a site with directions for mashing in a cooler. 
http://www.brewtech.com/library/backissues/issue5.4/palmer.html

manifold design link, i used #2 for a round cooler:
http://www.brewtech.com/library/backissues/issue5.4/palmer_sb.html#manifold

building the manifold was easy, really. get the copper pipe cutting
tool, the ends of the pipe will be much nicer than when cut with the
hack saw and you'll regret not having one once you've started sawing,
believe me. the the harder part was fitting the manifold to the ball
valve i had installed on the cooler, primarily because i wanted the
manifold to rest on the cooler bottom and the valve is elevated above
this. i ended up cutting a 1/2 in. 45 fitting in half and soldering it
to the outlet T fitting on the manifold. this makes a nearly perfect
fit. i can provide more construction information later if you'd like.

 -patrick in toronto
- -- 
       "There is only one aim in life and that is to live it."
 Karl Shapiro,(1959) from an essay on Henry Miller's Tropic of Cancer
	      finger pfinerty at nyx10.nyx.net for PGP key
		 http://abragam.med.utoronto.ca/~zinc


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:46:51 EST
From: Suds2468 at aol.com
Subject: use of caustic as sanitizer

Just when you thought it was safe to read HBD you see someone dredging up the 
topic of whether it's okay to use caustic as a sanitizer.  While reading the 
posts concerning this topic I couldn't help but notice that there was no 
mention of how beer flavor might be affected.  I may have missed the post 
where this was addressed so if I did please scroll past this post.

It's my understanding that it's okay to use caustic as a sanitizer if your 
focus is entirely on killing microorganisms.  However, it's important that 
all traces of caustic be rinsed from the vessel afterward because even the 
smallest amounts may cause oxidation of the beer resulting in off flavors.  
Finishing tanks with phosphoric acid might be a better choice because it will 
neutralize any remaining caustic residue and the pH is much more beer 
friendly.

Brent Ritchie
State of Franklin Homebrewers


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 09:56:00 -0600
From: "Dave Hinrichs" <dhinrichs at quannon.com>
Subject: 


>Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:42:43 -0500 (EST)
>From: Paul Shick <SHICK at JCVAXA.jcu.edu>
>Subject: Filter answer and question

>Hello all,

>	DeVaux Gauger asks about water filters for removing
>chlorine.  DeVaux, almost any activated carbon filter will
>remove 95-99% of chlorine (and chloramines,) if you keep the
>flow within the range given on the filter.  If you're setting
>up a basement system, I'd suggest a cannister filter.  They're
>often listed as "below sink" or "whole house" filters, available
>for about $10-15 from Sears, among others.  The filter elements
>vary considerably in price, from about $6 for standard carbon and
>fiber on up.  The basic carbon and fiber element is rated to remove
>95-99% of chlorine and chloramines at a nice flow rate (about 2
>gallons per minute, as I recall.)  You might want to disasemble
>the filter after each use, to avoid bacterial growth.

>	For those with more experience than I with these filters,
>I have a quick question.  The instructions (for all the brands
>I've seen) specify that one should not run hot water through the
>filter, although this is usually paired with a suggestion not to run
>any contaminated water through it.  Is this just to avoid bacterial
>problems, or does activated charcoal have problems at higher temperatures?
>In particular, would 120-130F water from the hot water tank be less
>likely to be dechlorinated?  Would it pick up off flavors from the
>filter?  I'm asking because my tap water is finally down to near 50F
>(good for chilling,) and it takes a lot longer to get 8 gallons up to
>mash temperature.  It's nice to mash in 25 minutes after starting the
>burner, rather than 50.  Thanks in advance.

   			Paul Shick
 			Basement brewing in Cleveland Hts OH


As one of the designers of the Sears models the reason that are only for
cold water is the materials used cannot take the high water temps and still
perform to specifications. Since all filter housings that I am aware are
made of plastics I do not think you can get a hot water rated filter
housing. The various filter media often has different filtering capabilities
to allow users to customize the filtration to meet the water quality. If you
have turbid water a sediment filter may be useful. Carbon filters are
referred to as taste and odor filters and generally reduce chlorine and
such. Some carbon filters also have an additive to reduce the lead content
of water. There are also several different chemical reduction media to take
out things like nitrites (or is that nitrates) or other specific water
problems.

I have installed and "undersink" model and it works great for both brewing
and cooking. Fortunately my local water is very good with minor filtration.
For those with more difficult water problems a whole house model and
possibly two units where multiple water issues exist. I would recommend that
the filter be kept in service and changed regularly. Removing the filter or
letting it sit in stagnate water can pose contamination risks. For those
with severe water problems high hardness, iron content, etc.. consult with a
water professional.

Now, my biased opinion. Sears sells excellent products to take care of your
water treatment needs at a reasonable price. Also the GE water softeners
(sold at Home Depot) are made by the same company, Ecowater Systems.


 Dave



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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:28:01 -0500
From: Brian Pickerill <bpickerill at mac.com>
Subject: Color approximation

I thought Spencer's post about color in HBD #3231 was very interesting.

There is a very low-tech color approximation in the freeware Macintosh
program BrewMeister. <http://hbd.org/brewery/files/BrewMeister.sea.hqx> I
have no idea how it works, but it's in the ballpark for color estimation on
a few brews that I checked, and I always thought it was a cool feature for
a brew program--much neater than just showing the predicted SRM value.  (I
don't use BrewMeister routinely, but I wish the other programs I use had
its color feature.)   It doesn't rely on ColorSync.

I think a feature like this in any program could be almost as accurate as
anyone's batch to batch color consistency.  If I make the same recipe more
than once, I always get a different color.  For that matter, buying the
same malt, even from the same maltster,  but a different batch, could
result in quite a lot of color variation.  My most recent batch is quite
dark for style because I was out of extra light DME (and canned AG wort)
for the starter.

I guess what I am saying is that a brew program should attempt to show the
predicted color.  It's not going to be that accurate, but it's more
meaningful to the average brewer than just showing the SRM values.

- --Brian Pickerill, Muncie Indiana





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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:30:16 -0800
From: Jonathan Peakall <jpeakall at mcn.org>
Subject: RE: Stuck Easy Masher....

>>Anyone ever had problems with a stuck sparge using an Easy Masher?
This is
>>my second try with the Gott Cooler version and second stuck sparge.

Nothing like that has ever happened with any "EZ" product. Just ask
Jack.

Sorry Jack, but I just couldn't pass it up. I always have had a very
puerile (sp?) sense of humor.

In reality, however, I would guess that the grain was compacted by
sparging way too rapidly. I never open my lauter valve by more than a
smidge, and it usually take 1-1.5 hrs to sparge, although I do run a
little faster while circulating, as I use a "Rube Goldbergesque Anti-EZ
mashing device with a jumpy mash thingy schedule".





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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 08:43:42 -0800
From: J Daoust <thedaousts at ixpres.com>
Subject: hop storage??

Is it possible to store hops, after using a portion of the package, in a
zip lock baggy in the freezer.??  The guy at the beer shop says no, is
he yring to get me to buy more products? Or is it feasible to store them
this way to save a little$$.
Thanks, Jerry Daoust



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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:56:38 -0500
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: Practical Brewer download & quality

Brewers,
    I've started the arduously slow process of downloading the Practical
Brewer (see http://www.mbaa.com/membonly/publication/pdf.html ) I am
guessing that many of you are doing the same, since the best I can get is
just over 1 Kbyte/s. (I have a lightly loaded 112k ISDN at the office, so I
suspect the bottleneck is at the mbaa site.)
    Can someone with good bandwidth post the pdf's on their site and let the
rest of us know? (Would that be illegal?)
    Also, the image quality is terrible! Has anyone converted this to
formatted text? (Would that be illegal?) Any tricks for printing the files
as is to get a decent output?


Brew on!
Doug Moyer
Salem, VA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com



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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:53:03 -0600
From: "G. M. Remake" <gremake at gsbalum.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Color; Overnight Mashing

Hello all,

Thanks to those who responded to my request for help in developing a recipe
color swatch in my Excel brewing program.  The concensus was that it cannot
be done accurately.  So maybe I'm expecting too much of my simple program,
but I see that the Recipator (found at brewery.org) does precisely what I'm
trying to do.  For a given recipe, it develops a colored cell as an
indication of what the beer color may look like.  So yes, it can be done,
keeping in mind the limits of accuracy.  Now I just have to figure out how
to do it in my program.

Randall asked about overnight mashing, recognizing the potential
time-savings.  This topic has come up before, and I am again compelled to
sing the praises of split-session brewing.  Some have reported mashing
overnight, but temperature control can be tricky, and souring might become
more of an issue.  Whereas I don't mash overnight, I do mash and sparge at
night, after which the collected wort sits on my stove until I boil it the
following morning (or afternoon).  I've been doing this about a year and
have been very happy with it.  It also produces some wonderful FWH results
when the hops steep overnight.

This past weekend I brewed a 95%+ Vienna malt Vienna employing a double
decoction mash, and the mash/sparge session alone took over four hours on
Friday night, after which I was plenty ready for bed.  I got up and boiled
on Saturday morning, and was finished cleaning up in time to take the kids
sledding before lunch.  I could not have brewed this beautiful recipe
without split-session brewing.  If you're looking to make the most of
limited brewing time, give split-sessions a try!

Cheers!

Greg




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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 09:29:17 -0800
From: Brad Miller <millerb at targen.com>
Subject: Waters of the World

	I'm creating a program to calculate (or convert) water from one
area to water from another area.  What I was hoping to have people send me
their water content for their city so I could build a database.  Thanks for
the help.

Brad




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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:34:10 -0600
From: Kirk.Fleming at born.com
Subject: Batch/Burst/Fly Sparging--Gott Cooler Setup

In #3231 Joel referred to batch sparging, and while sparging this past
weekend I had time to reflect on the variety of techniques and equipment
I've seen folks use.  I chuckled when I thought about the extent to which
folks have sometimes gone--in particular the commercially available rotary
spray arm unit, and even some of the stuff I've built over the years.

While not as 'hands-off' as batch sparging or continuous gravity-fed
systems, lately I've simply used a large saucepan to shuttle hot water to
the lauter tank--one saucepan at a time, as needed.  I try to maintain a bit
of a water cover over the grain--about 2-3 cm, but generally fail to some
degree.

Naturally, the convenience of this process depends on run-off rate, but the
effectiveness is equal to the half-dozen or so other techniques I've used,
and doesn't require any equipment set up.

On another note, I used yet another apparatus this weekend--a perforated
7-gal HDPE bucket inside the Gott cooler for mashing/lautering.  I haven't
followed HBD in a long time and don't know if this is a common setup, but I
had to improvise when a surprise window-of-opportunity opened up, and it
worked great.  Fantastically, actually.

I perforated the bucket with 3/32" holes on the sides only--maybe about 500
of them at most.  The 10-gal Gott cooler cover can still be placed on the
cooler with the HDPE bucket inside--although it only tightens on about 1/8
turn.  I ran a 25lb grain bill, approximately, and had ample room in the
bucket for sparging, stirring, etc.  Primitive, yet effective.

Ah...another 8 gal of IPA headed my way.


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 18:08:04 -0000
From: "Nigel Porter" <nigel at sparger.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Saflager Yeast

Mike Pensinger wrote:

>Is the Saflager the same way and if so what
>are its temp ranges.  Is there a place to find specs on it?

Try visiting http://www.dclyeast.co.uk/

The yeast strain of saflager available to the HB market is S-23.

Nigel Porter
Guildford, Surrey, UK


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Date: 25 Jan 2000 12:09:59 -0500
From: RCAYOT at solutia.com
Subject: Dextrin vs Protein for mouth feel

     I just want to break into the dextrin/protein discussion regarding 
     body and mouthfeel.  There is a clear relationship between molecular 
     weight of dissolved polymers and viscosity.  The viscosisty of a 
     solution with dissolved polymer is directly proportional to the 
     polymer concentration, and directly proportional to the polymer 
     molecular weight raised to some power, usually less than one.  That is 
     for dilute solutions, higher concentrations lead to other 
     relationships.  I would guess that "body" is really related to 
     "viscosity".  The viscosity would be dominated by the polymers in the 
     liquid and little contribution to the viscosity from dissolved low 
     molecualr weight molecules like oligosaccarides.  The question I have 
     is how high in molecular weight are the soluble proteins and how high 
     in molecualr weight are the dextrins?  I am going to take a stabe at 
     this, but I think that dextrins are pretty much trimmed down starch 
     molecules, and are probably fairly low in molecular weight.  In 
     addition, proteins are usually coaggulated and taken out of solution 
     if very high in molecular weight.  The question of which one dominates 
     would take some investigation.   Someone mentioned a fraction 
     containing >300,000 daltons as a MW, this is very high in molecular 
     weight and would have a sigfnificant contribution to viscosity if 
     present in any reasonable concentration.  My own experiernce suggests 
     that body can be somewhat controlled by mash temperature which would 
     suggest dextrins at first blush, but proteolysis can also occur at 
     mash temepratures for a short period of time before the enzymes get 
     denatured.  
     
     Roger Ayotte 



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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:47:18 -0500
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: conditioning temps and dry hopping temperatures

I have been caught in a high hopping rut lately (not a bad thing at all)
with a few batches of IPA, imperial stout, and several barley wines.

What are the thoughts concerning conditioning of the brews?  Is it better to
cold condition at upper 30s-low 40s (like serving temps) or at cellar temps
or at normal fermentation temps like 60 to 65F.  Does anybody have any data
to support any of the above on time to condition, flavor profile, conversion
of nasties or esters, etc.

I figure the yeast have a tougher time at the low temps but is the
conditioning process a yeast process or a general flavors mellowing and
melding process?  This might point towards the higher end of my above posted
ranges.

Also, is dry hopping more effective at warmer or colder.  I generally dry
hop at the 60-65F temperature.  What happens if I dry hop and then throw the
keg in the ol`fridge to chill it and then pull the hops out after whatever
time period I normally use.  I would say warmer is better based on
solubility but perhaps some other effects are important too.  

Also, is CO2 pressure on the keg or in the headspace going to inhibit either
the conditioning or the dry hopping effects?

Tough questions, huh..  I welcome any thoughts posted or private.

By the way, I have a Wyeast 1098 fermented imperial stout with an OG =
1.084.  This ended up being pretty estery at the end of fermentation.  I did
use a huge yeast cake from a previous batch.  It was bubbling within 4 hours
and done bubbling in maybe 48 hours or so.  Should this yeast be extremely
estery in an imperial.  Any experience with this yeast and high gravity
brews?  I used it for a english browne andf porter previously and would say
they had a destinctively fruity taste/smell.  Good in the brown though,
seemed pretty englishe authentic.  I did throw the imperial in the fridge
after 2 or 3 weeks to sit.  Should I take it out and leave it at room
temperature for a time now or just leave it there cold to slowly condition.

Thanks for any high octane help,

Pete Czerpak
Albany, NY


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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:25:31 -0700
From: "Dana H. Edgell" <EdgeAle at cs.com>
Subject: stir plates

Alan Meeker suggests that I consider a stir bar instead of pump aeration to
keep my yeast in suspension.

I have thought about stir plates and remember making then inexpensively
being discussed several times before on the HBD. I think a combination of
stir plate, continuous aeration and warm temperatures would maximize yeast
growth. I was trying to combine two of these into one by using the bubbles
to stir also.

A stir bar obviously would be better at stirring than bubbles but I think
it would be poor for aeration. While the stir bar agitation would dissolve
oxygen from the air inside the jar, it seems to me that that would get
depleted rather quickly. The airlock and the CO2 from the yeast would
prevent much more oxygen being disolved. I don't think a stir bar could
oxygenate over the long run as well as a bubbler could stir.

Of course, the fact that I already have an aquarium pump but not a stir
plate may be affecting my judgement :).

Dana

- --------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Dana Edgell
Staff Scientist               mailto:edgell at far-tech.com
FARTECH, Inc.                 (858) 455-6655
P.O.Box 221053                (858) 450-9741 fax
San Diego, CA  92192-1053




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Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 11:51:51 -0800
From: RiedelD at pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
Subject: RE: STUCK SPARGE; Wyeast 1187; Grain bed depth; O'fest lagering

Todd in NC relates the following:

>Anyone ever had problems with a stuck sparge using an Easy Masher?  This is

>my second try with the Gott Cooler version and second stuck sparge. I
crushed 
>with the JSP mill.  I collected my first 2 gallons at full flow, poured it 
>back in to filter, collected a second 2 gallons of very clear wort at full 
>flow, then suddenly, STUCK SPARGE.  Almost an hour later I managed to
collect 
>my 7 gallons.  I  ended up getting quite aggressive, racking the screen
with 

Well, I have a few thoughts here:  1.  If I recall, 'full-flow' may be a
little
aggressive... try backing that off a little; 2.  An hour to collect 7
gallons is
actually a little too FAST.  Most literature recommends at least an hour for
5
gallons.  If you runoff faster than that, you'll leave a lot of sugars
behind.
Did you usea different system before and get much faster flow?

If you really feel that things are STUCK, I think Jack recommends gently
blowing
into the outlet to 'backflush' the screen.

- ---------------
Wyeast 1187:

Has anyone used this strain?  I recently pitch a good quantity (~400mL) of
slurry
to a 7.5 gallon batch of strong ale (OG 1.068) at about 68F.  Oxygenated for

2 x 2.5 mins through an aquarium airstone (glass bead).  It took at least
24hrs to
get moving and it's still going pretty slowly (~7sec between airlock blips).
Is 
this strain a slow worker?  Sensitive to temperature (I'm fermenting around
68F)?

- ----------------
Grain bed depth vs. recirc time:

I've come to the conclusion that grain bed depth is very helpful in
decreasing
recirc time.  My 8 and 10 gallon batches (and their subsequent deeper grain
beds)
really clear up nicely and quickly (5-10 mins instead of up around 20-30
mins!).
I use a 50L converted Sankey as a mash/lauter tun.  - Just a datapoint.

- ----------------
Lagering/Oktoberfests:

My fall brewed O'Fest recently dropped it's slight astringency and evolved
into
a nice, malty, smooth beer (used WYeast 2206).  My point?  It took a good 2
months
of lagering to get this beer to where I wanted it.  - another datapoint.

cheers,
Dave Riedel
Victoria, Canada.



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---