---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re:Trappist Light ("Richard")
  re: Reversed Cornie fittings (John_E_Schnupp)
  What's in the bag... (MICHAEL WILLIAM MACEYKA)
  Biere de Garde Flavour - Summary of Comments (Graham Sanders)
  MCAB entry packages (Louis Bonham)
  Re: reporting quantities in recipes (KMacneal)
  Re: flour in witbier-+ (KMacneal)
  Re: wheat flour in wit (KMacneal)
  Conical Angle ("Sandy Macmillan")
  re: black and tan (Tom Lombardo)
  Microwaves/More Color ("A. J. deLange")
  (no subject) (TKBFRED)
  Malt (TKBFRED)
  Re: Foam space ("Strom C. Thacker")
  Re: Foam space (Chad Bohl)
  Thanks,  BT/HBD, Yeast Sedimentation Question (Kurt Kiewel)
  Aerating--O2 vs. Shaking ("Peter J. Calinski")
  I Need an Adhesive ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Alan's MW test ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  rice in extract beer / foam stopper affecting starter ("George de Piro")
  bottle fur, color, Black'n Tan (Dave Burley)
  Re: Anyone have a Rheingold recipe to share? (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Flour in Witbeer (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Can dry yeast packets be used for bread? (Jeff Renner)
  Re: I don't think Color is important. (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Black and Tan, half and half, etc. (Jeff Renner)
  Refrigeration Units ("Troy Hager")
  Even more thermometers ("Stephen and Carolyn Ross")
  Hey, stop it! (Dana Edgell)
  RE: more microwave maddness! (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Foaming stoppers... (Some Guy)
  Gelatin and Agar ("S. Wesley")
  me too! ("Jensen,Craig")
  Adjustable MaltMill vs Unmalted Wheat (Frightened Suburban Brewer)


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

* Entry deadline for the Mayfare Homebrew Competition is 3/15/00 
* See http://www.maltosefalcons.com/ for more information

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 21:04:12 -0800
From: "Richard" <seaotter at orland.net>
Subject: Re:Trappist Light

Brian Dixon wrote:

> chilled and pitched a vile of WhiteLabs WLP500 Trappist Ale Yeast


>First, you need to ferment at higher temperatures in order to develop >the
>esters that you find in Trappist ales ... like higher than 70 F (75 F
>would
>be best.)

The yeast that he is using (White Labs WLP500 Trappist) recommends
fermentation temperatures below 65 F. If this is not correct yell at me so I
can move my primary fermentor out of the garage and into the warm house
(making a heavy Trappist clone right now   OG 1.124!!).

Rich






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Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 21:55:51 -0800
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: Reversed Cornie fittings

Mike,

>It seems the 4 kegs that I got from them have the in and out
>fittings reversed.  I suspected this when I tried to use the carbonator and
>it would'nt fit.  It's true they are switched.  Can I just switch the
>fittings on the cornie myself?  Is this a pain or a piece of cake?  Can
>someone describe it to me as I am a cornie virgin.

You should be able to do this.  Make sure the keg is not pressurized and
swap the fittings.  You didn't mention if you had a pin or ball lock.  The
pin locks are a bit more of a PITA since the pins can interfere with a
wrench or socket.  I remember seeing somewhere that grooves can be cut in
a deep socket to match the pins.

Most gas fittings (in) have a groove machined thru the hex nut portion.
Williams Brewing (no affiliation, blah blah...) has some good pictures of
various keg parts and fittings.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Dirty Laundry Brewery (temporarily closed)
Georgia, VT
95 XLH 1200




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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 01:23:15 -0500 (EST)
From: MICHAEL WILLIAM MACEYKA <mmaceyka at welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: What's in the bag...

Howdy,

	JIm Liddil thinks that the two "yeast" shapes in Tom Meier's beer are
in fact two different yeasts.  This may well be, but I would be more convinced
they were different by the differential staining than the different
morphologies.  I was pretty anal about purity of culture when I first started
ranching, so I did a lot of serial streaks to singles and watching the culture
as the yeast grew in liquid.  Now, I never cultured the stuff in wort, so that
may make things different, and I used a 100x DIC scope so I may have been
worried about things no one else sees, but I was struck by two things:

	-A single colony would often show many cell morphologies when
cultured in liquid, and these would change over time.  Restreaking to singles
would again show roughly the same set of cell morphologies...

	-Fully half of the Wyeast smak-paks would show a slow growing cocci
straight out of the bag.  These cocci didn't grow well on YPD plates, but they
grew in the Wyeast starter (aerated)...

	Planned obsolescence?  Draw your own conclusions.


Mike Maceyka
Curious in Baltimore and Takoma Park, MD




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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:25:54 +1000 
From: Graham Sanders <GrahamS at bsa.qld.gov.au>
Subject: Biere de Garde Flavour - Summary of Comments


G'day All

Well its been a bit over a week since I posted the querry on this type of
beer.  I have also gathered information from posts in the UK.  It's time to
look at what I have gathered to see if any sense can be made about "that
taste" and how to get it. I would like to that those who E-mailed me
privately also on this issue.

The first thing I was surprised at the lack of information on the subject.
While there is a wealth of published information, as well as experts
(professional and lay) on every aspect of brewing, including heaps on
Lambics, yet there is so little available on how to get the earthy flavours
of BdG.  Because of this, the advice I have from people I must take on their
word (assumed correct), and try to make sense of the sometimes conflicting
information.

The following is a summary of what information I have gathered and my
conclusions from that.  If readers have additional information 'i'm all
ears'.  

SUMMARY

There seems no doubt that the corked bottles have something to do with it.
If it was as simple as that the issue would end there, but it doesn't.  The
same BdG beer if bottled in corked or capped bottles, will have different
flavours, the only thing being different is the corked bottle.  Also I have
been advised that some other styles of corked belgian beers will develop the
desired flavour over time.  If you smell the cork of a BdG bottle the smell
is very strong as well.

BUT, no home brewer I have talked to has stated that their corked bottles
ever develops that full on flavour of a BdG, if any flavour at all.  You
would think dry hopping (no-that is dry-corking) a keg of BdG would also
give that flavour, but again, no one will own up that they have tried this
practice and that it works.  Further some other styles of corked beer seems
never to develop that flavour.  The cork issue is compounded with the fact
that the wine industry, as stated in a previous post, tries its hardest not
to get that flavour.  For those who say its the cork alone, the fact that
wine doesn't get that flavour (at least very often) yet BdG does every time
puts a bit of a hole in that argument.

Is it possible that the corks are treated differently - worth
considering!!!!!!!!!!!

A couple of people have suggested that oak shavings help get that flavour,
but I think thats not the direction to take (at least not directly).  

I believe that cork does has a role to play, but not by itself.  The nature
of cork, its porisity, how its made, how it reacts with its environment
could be the key (read on).

While most state its the cork bottles (and this may very well be by reason
of the obvious) there never the less is a significant undercurrent that some
sort of micro-organism is involved.  Evidence is no further away than some
people stating they get a bit of the flavour from cultures from the dregs of
a BdG.  The leading microbe suggested was a Bret yeast but I'm not sure.
Where this microbe comes from is uncertain. It could be environmental, blown
in on the wind, it could get in through the cork, could even be in the cork
(can anyone see where I'm heading yet).

One idea that at first seems stupid was a suggestion it was mould.  I
initially dismissed this, but on reflection it does have some merit.  After
all BdG does have that smell.  Also mould does has an affinity with wood as
well.

The evidence to date is 
(a)  Cork is involved somehow
(b)  There is some evidence microbes might be involved.
(c)  Time is a factor

Conclusion (and please if you disagree I would like to here your comments)

I think the nature of cork, and microbes of some sort react together to make
this flavour.  After all, cork would be a great 'home" for microbes.  One
possible reaction is that mould is growing and reacting with the cork to
give that flavour. (after all, one person said its smell like decomposing
wood). Where the microbes come from is the question(if at all).
They may be already in the cork, or in the cellars. If so any ideas out
there.  

For a Home Brewer, the logic to test this would be to use the dregs out of a
bottle for a culture and the original cork with cork pieces in secondary in
a keg.  I would think any aged wood would possible suffice. This I'm
planning to do.  I am also going to do some plates of the cork and dregs out
of a bottle of La Chollette to see what grows.

I put this post up as a result of my investigations so far.

Comments needed

Shout

Graham Sanders


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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 04:25:32 -0600
From: Louis Bonham <lkbonham at hbd.org>
Subject: MCAB entry packages

Robert Johnson asks about the MCAB entry information for
folks who have qualified for MCAB II . . .

The entry package can be downloaded from:

http://www.stlbrews.org/temp/mcab-2-entry-packet.doc

E-mail about this was sent last week to qualifiers for whom
we had reported e-mail addresses.  Everyone who did not
respond to or was not included in this initial e-mail blast
will be getting a hard copy by snail mail -- obviously,
however, if you're reading this, you can probably just
download it and have it immediately.

FYI, entry deadlines are:

Entry forms -- March 18, 2000 (everyone)
Shipped beer -- March 18, 2000
Hand-carried beer -- 5:00 PM, March 24, 2000

See the entry package for the specifics about where things
should be sent.

As always, if you have any questions, please drop a note to
either me or the MCAB II organizer (Bob Boland
[RBoland at aol.com]).

Louis K. Bonham



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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 06:52:34 EST
From: KMacneal at aol.com
Subject: Re: reporting quantities in recipes

In a message dated 2/8/2000 12:22:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
homebrew-request@hbd.org writes:

<< According to Michael J. Lewis in the AOB Classic Series book on Stout, the
 brewing industry (professionals) formulate by percentages of extract.  It is
 homebrewers that have fudged things and sometimes report recipes in
 percentage by weight.  Without knowing the relative extraction rates among
 the various types of malts, it is hard to do an accurate conversion from one
 expression of the recipe to another.  (Note that it is probably not fair to
 assume that if you have an X% rate of extraction on the average, that you
 extract X% of any particular malt's maximum theoretical extract in a mash.
 The extraction process is different for different malts and depends on
 crush, soluble solids, and the various enzyme activities in the various
 mashes and mixtures of mashes.)  Comments anyone?
 
 Brian >>

Given the scale of a homebrew batch and the techniques employed by the 
homebrewer, my guess is that the differences between reporting recipes as 
%age by extraction vs. %age by weight would be negligible, and not worth the 
hassle to convert back and forth.

Keith MacNeal
Worcester, MA



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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 06:57:33 EST
From: KMacneal at aol.com
Subject: Re: flour in witbier-+

In a message dated 2/8/2000 12:22:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
homebrew-request@hbd.org writes:

<< The flour you buy in your shop will probably not contain all of the bran,
 though it will be better than using white flour. The problem you may find
  a subject covered in earlier digests ) that the wheat used at the mill
 would be predominantly hard endosperm wheats - breadmaking varieties.
 
 Your US home-grown breadmaking wheats are very hard, and tend to have a high
 gluten level compared to the low gluten, soft endosperm wheats used in the
 brewing industry in Europe. >>

Which is why I avoided bread making flour and stuck to general purpose flour.

Keith MacNeal
Worcester, MA


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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 07:01:26 EST
From: KMacneal at aol.com
Subject: Re: wheat flour in wit

In a message dated 2/8/2000 12:22:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
homebrew-request@hbd.org writes:

<< Following the Wheat flower whit beer thread I am curious as to weather the 
 wheat flower needs to be gelatinized (correct term)? By boiling before 
adding 
 to the Mash? If not why is wheat flower different from Corn meal or Rice?
 I like the Idea of using wheat flower but would like to avoid carrying 
excess 
 starch over from the mash. Or would not boiling just affect the amount of 
 conversion from starch to sugar? >>

None of the wit bier recipes I've seen call for any special treatment of the 
flour before adding to the mash tun.  Most recipes I've seen specifically 
call for raw wheat.

Keith MacNeal
Worcester, MA




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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 15:19:26 +0300
From: "Sandy Macmillan" <scotsman at kems.net>
Subject: Conical Angle

Subject: conical fermentor angle

Several comments have been made about  the 60 Degree angle for conical
fermentors.
The answer is unfortunately very simple. It is the easiest and least costly
to manufacture.
The cone is cut from a circle whose diameter is the circumference of the
vertical part and only half the circle is used. If you plot the cuts out on
a standard sheet, this produces the minimum cut with maximum capacity.


Sandy Macmillan
Brewer in a dry place



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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 06:22:37 -0600
From: toml at ednet.rvc.cc.il.us (Tom Lombardo)
Subject: re: black and tan

Chuck writes:
>WHat are the qualities in 2 different brews that make them separate as
>Guiness and Bass do.  e.g. how should I brew two brews that will separate
>to
>make a black and tan....

Chuck,

Two words:   final gravity.  Make a high gravity pale and a low gravity
stout, and the stout will float on the pale, like a Guinness on Bass.

Tom (Rockford, IL)



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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 13:50:39 +0000
From: "A. J. deLange" <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Microwaves/More Color

Alan: Now try baking the glassware to get all the entrained gas out.
Cool just to the point where you can get water in without cracking it
i.e. get the liquid in before more gas has time to get entrapped.
Haven't tried this but this is supposed to be the way to get really
impressive bumping. Also try a partial immersion thermometer or an RTD.
Have fun and be careful!

John: Quite right - trying to hit a particular color in a beer is a
waste of time but that doesn't mean that color is not of interest or
importance. If you are a good brewer you have some measure of control
over all aspects of the beer not in the sense that you can start with a
clean piece of paper and produce PU but in the sense that if you have a
recipe you should get the same beer each time you brew with it. This
means same OG, same TE, same alcohol content, same pH, same diacetyl
level, same polyphenols... and, of course, same color.  This is
particularly important to commercial brewers for whom batch to batch
consistency is the main goal. It's also important to the homebrewer
beacuse this "house beer" becomes a point of departure for new beers or
for improvement of the house beer. If mash pH is a bit off, varying dark
malt can be used to correct but this will obviously have effects on
color. Water composition, yeast strain, lagering temperature and even
just time also have effects on color. So does the oxidation state of the
beer and doubtless many other things. Lots of neat stuff to study and
experiment with!

My particular interest lies in the fact that SRM is not a particularly
good measure of color. What I call "pseudo SRM" which is the log of
luminance scaled and offset so that it fits SRM over an ensemble of
beers, appears to be a better one. That's what I'm exploring and having
a ball. To measure the color of a beer takes about 2 mL. What do you
suppose I do with the rest?

To all - thanks for rekindling my interest in this fascinating subject.



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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 08:45:18 EST
From: TKBFRED at aol.com
Subject: (no subject)

>Joe Clayton wrote:

>Your Frankenmuth Bock was one of my favorite beers in 
>its day. Awesome! 

>A while back the subject of how to use recipes
>expressed as a percentage was discussed and I am not 
>sure if a consensus was ever reached in this forum. In
>your recipe, are your percentages expressing the 
>ingredients ratio by weight or by extract?  In your 
>experience, which is the preferred method?

Joe:
Thanks for your nice words about the F'muth Bock Beer. Fred Schumacher 
(former President of F'muth Brewery), myself and the whole Team at the time 
are still proud today of all the beers we brewed there.
You raised an interesting question of how to express the ingredients ratio of 
a brew.
In discussions with other Brewers, we are used to talk of percentage by 
weight.
Also, we talk about *Plato of the wort knock out, so,,, given this two 
factors, other Brewers can relate to their own IN HOUSE parameters, such as 
yield etc. 
Also, that's why I like to mention the suppliers of the Malt used. If a 
Homebrewer
wishes to brew the type of beer, he/she can phone up the supplier and request 
a
Malt Analysis (of course, if he gets one, that would be another discussion).

Fred M. Scheer



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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 08:53:30 EST
From: TKBFRED at aol.com
Subject: Malt

>Dan Senne wrote:
>I've used up my 50 pound sack of Briess 2-row and am looking for something
>around the same "L" rating, but with a bit more characture.

Dan:
Did you ever brewed a Pilsener with FROEDERT Malt?
I think the Malt is supplied through Premier Malt in Michigan, the
contact person would be Ms. Susan Graydon. I don't have her phone #,
but I'm sure someone on the Forum has.

Fred M. Scheer


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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:56:48 -0500
From: "Strom C. Thacker" <sthacker at bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Foam space

Thomas Murray asks:

>I am wondering if there is enough space in
>this size keg to contain all the foam in a 10 gallon batch during high
>krausen?
>-------

I routinely ferment 10-12 gallon batches in a 15.5 gallon sanke 
fitted with an airlock.  I haven't had the krausen reach the top yet.

Strom
Newton, MA



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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 08:59:46 -0600 
From: Chad Bohl <Chad_Bohl at digi.com>
Subject: Re: Foam space

Thomas,

My suggestion: use a blow-off hose.

Chad


ThomasM923 at aol.com wrote:

I just purchased a keg to use as a boiler. It has inspired in me such a lust 
for stainless steel that I am now considering purchasing another one of these 
kegs for fermenting 10 gallon batches in. This keg is a bit smaller than the 
usual 15.5 gallon type, having a 13.4 gallon capacity which works out to 
about 12 gallons usable space. I am wondering if there is enough space in 
this size keg to contain all the foam in a 10 gallon batch during high 
krausen? I've read that one needs about 30-40% headspace in a plastic 
fermenter, however a keg is proportionally wider than a plastic bucket. I am 
wondering if anyone that uses a keg as an open fermenter can give me an idea 
what the typical amount of space the foam takes up is.

metallically yours,
Thomas Murray





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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 09:13:21 -0600
From: Kurt Kiewel <kiewel at mail.chem.tamu.edu>
Subject: Thanks,  BT/HBD, Yeast Sedimentation Question

I'd like to thank A. J. deLange for his thorough response to my water
analysis question and John Adsit and Bill Tobler for their advice on
solving my floating false bottom problem.

- ----------------------------

I didn't know about Brewing Techniques until near the end of its demise and
from what I can glean from the HBD, Zymurgy just isn't going to measure up
to the quality of BT.  So I'd like to know how much a one-year subscription
to BT was so I can send that amount to Pat Babcock in support of the HBD.
It appears that according to the financial summary page that the HBD server
died and was replaced with Pats(?) personal funds in faith that readers
would come to the rescue.  I'm glad he did that and recommend that others
'switch' their subscriptions from BT to the HBD.  For sure, there can be no
worries about receiveing back issues.  They're free, searchable and always
available.

- ----------------------------

I understand that reusing yeast from primary fermentation is a great way to
insure proper pitching rates especially for lagers.  I've heard of washing
yeast and in fact I got a great email with directions on how to do it but
my hard drive crashed several months ago and I lost it.  So with my last
batch I played around a bit with it to see if it would come back to me.
Here's what I did...

After primary fermentation of an all-grain dark German lager (with the
whole hops and I think the hot break and cold break efficiently filtered
out from the kettle) I racked to a secondary and put about 3L of water back
into the primary.  After swirling and allowing it to settle I poured off
the stuff that poured out and was left with tan creamy peanut butter
looking stuff.  It looked like there might have been layers in the sludge
but I couldn't tell.  So I added another 2l of water and swirled it all up
and poured it into a lemon-aid style glass cylindrical pitcher and left
overnight.  The next day there were four layers.  The bottom layer was
0.75cm and tan (paper bag color).  The second from the bottom layer was 1.0
cm and was a light tan cream color.  The third was about 3.5 cm and was the
same color as the bottom.  The top layer was just the liquid on top.  Can
anyone propose what these layers are and which I should repitch and how to
separate them?

Why do all the books say we have to repitch almost immediately?  Those
whack packs seem to be good for a couple months or even more.  And I bet
most of those white labs pitchable yeast have been around for a while
before they get pitched.  What is the realistic longevity of the yeast cake
of a primary?

Kurt Kiewel
On the road to making killer beer,  College Station, TX





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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:06:54 -0500
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Aerating--O2 vs. Shaking

I too am pretty convinced that the same quantity of O2 will be dissolved in
the wort whether treated with O2 or shaken.  Do the following experiment
with water.  Start with de-aerated water (boiled for instance).  Put 1/2 a
gallon of the water in a gallon jug leaving 1/2 gallon of headspace.  Put
your hand over the top and shake it for a few seconds (like three shakes). 
Take your hand off and hear the air gush in to replace the air that was
taken in by the water.  Put your hand on top and shake again.  Remove hand
and hear more air rush in again.  Repeat until no air rushes in.  

At this point, I contend that the water has taken up all the air it can
hold for the temperature it is at.  Now, if I remember my physics right,
the water also contains all the O2 it can possibly hold at this
temperature.  This is because the quantity of a given gas that can be
dissolved in a liquid is independent of any other gases dissolved in the
liquid.   That is, just because the air is 80% N2 and 20% O2 (rough and
dirty amounts) it doesn't mean that the water will hold only 20% of the O2
it would hold if it had been exposed to 100% O2. The water holds as much O2
as it can.  Bubbling more O2 through it won't add any O2.

Thus either bubbling 100% of O2 or shaking with air in the headspace (as
long as you replenish the air every few seconds) will result in the same
quantity of O2 in the wort.

Of course the pure O2 method could be more sanitary.

Am I all wet or is this theory valid?

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY



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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:10:55 -0500
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: I Need an Adhesive

I am looking for an epoxy or other adhesive that is thermally conductive
but not electrically conductive.  I am trying to attach a temperature
sensor to both brass and plastic.  Can anyone recommend some adhesive?

Thanks in advance.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY



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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:45:16 -0500
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: Alan's MW test

Alan asked, "1) Is it possible that steam condensing on the thermometer
body just above
the water line caused a rise in temp over the 100 degC mark? "
 Nope, steam is 100 degC at standard temperature and pressure; it can only 
superheat under pressure.
You pretty much proved the "MWs can superheat water" question.


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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:13:35 -0500
From: "George de Piro" <gdepiro at mindspring.com>
Subject: rice in extract beer / foam stopper affecting starter

Hi all,

J. O'Meara mentioned that he used cooked rice as a kettle adjunct.  I
question this practice.  Rice is essentially starch.  Adding it to the
kettle will add much starch to the beer, which will cause a number of
problems and absolutely no benefits.  The problems include:

1.  A permanent haze that will only disappear once invading microbes consume
the starch.

2.  Invading microbes, no matter how small their numbers initially, will
eventually consume the starch and grow unchecked because your brewer's yeast
cannot eat starch and therefore will offer no competition for that food
source.  The bottles can eventually explode, if given enough time.  My
second or third homebrew batch was an extract-based pumpkin ale to which I
added canned pumpkin (aka, starch) to the brew kettle.  2 years later the
forgotten bottles started exploding in my basement (the beer was pretty
awful and therefore went undrunk).

3.  The beer will taste starchy, which isn't usually desirable (although
taste is a personal issue).

Starchy adjuncts, including rice, corn, oats, raw barley, wheat, etc. must
be mashed with diastatic malts in order to convert their starches into
sugar.  If you are an extract brewer and desire the effect of using rice in
your brew, use rice syrup (available at fine homebrew shops near you).
- -------------------------------------------
Our esteemed janitor ponders the amazing vitality of a yeast culture kept in
an Erlenmyer flask under a foam stopper as compared to an airlock.

I believe that Pat hit on the the two major factors at work here:  lower
pressure within the flask (and therefore less CO2 build up) and better air
flow through the stopper (providing more O2 for the yeast).

It would be interesting to see if one of Pat's other cultures could be
inducd to be as vigorous at this point by replacing the airlock with a foam
stopper.  There is a paper from a couple of year's ago (I can't remember the
reference and don't have time to look it up) that claimed that brewer's
yeast do not readily recover their vitality if they are grown in O2 poor
environments early on and are then offered O2 later.  Pat's yeast probably
wasn't completely O2-deprived, though, so it won't really be testing this
hypothosis.  Interesting, none the less.

Have fun!

George de Piro

C.H. Evans Brewing Company
at the Albany Pump Station
(518)447-9000
http://evansale.com (under construction)

Malted Barley Appreciation Society
Homebrew Club
http://hbd.org/mbas



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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:23:00 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: bottle fur, color, Black'n Tan

Brewsters:

Dan Listerman and I have both
experienced bottle fur ( i.e translucent
particles) clinging to the inside of the bottle
and surprisingly all of the bottles are
coated on the same side ( about 1/4
of the bottle) and top to bottom. Neither
he nor I used gelatin or other clarifying
aid in these cases.  He speculates that
it is some kind of air conditioning or
heat flow phenomenon and asks for
speculations.

Although I normally now cover my bottles
( when I do bottle)  by putting them into
a paper grocery bag to keep the light out,
I am not sure ( don't think so)  if this was
the case at the time I saw this.  I also
speculated at the time that  it might be a
heat related phenomenon, but concluded
that it was actually due to light from a
small window not directly shining on
the bottles producing charges on the
bottle wall or on the particles of yeast
or other trub in these  naturally
conditioned bottles.

I theorized that these charges
were neutralized when the yeast
particles migrated to the bottle wall.
The bottles were green, as I recall.

Sounds like an experiment needs
doing!
- ------------------------------------------
While I agree with John Palmer that
color is not important, to a degree,
and that imitating exactly a current
commercial brew is not what I want
to do for reasons that I believe that
pre-WWI British beers and pre WWII
German beers were likely better,
IMHO, others would disagree.

I do believe that hitting a target is
an important step in developing
and proving your brewing skills.
I also believe that BJCP fulfills a
valuable role in promoting good
brewing skills and satisfying some
brewers' desires to compete.
Color is one parameter in judging
and needs to be considered.

However, just focussing on the grist
composition and saying the color
will be "in the ballpark" as John
contends is not necessarily correct.
Boiling technique - how long, how
big the kettle, covered or not, will also
have an effect on color and taste.
In the small volumes we deal with, this
technique will likely be more
important than on a large scale.
- ------------------------------------
Chuck Myrglot asks how one can
pour a black and tan that is separated
as in Guinness and Bass. The answer is
a final gravity FG difference. The
lower FG is poured last.

How can you make them? Use
different mashing profiles in which
the higher FG beer will get the higher
mash temperature in an infusion mash.
- -------------------------------------
Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley 


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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:11:38 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Anyone have a Rheingold recipe to share?

Tony Tantillo <tantillo at ichange.net> srote:
>Rich Rodda asks about a Rheingold recipe.  Brewing Techniques has two
>history articles on their web site, which is still up and running.  The
>first address has a recipe and the second address is good for general
>background reading:
>
>http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.1/jankowski.html
>"The Bushwick Pilsners: A Look at Hoppier Days" by Ben Jankowski
>
>http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.3/fix.html
>"Explorations in Pre-Prohibition American Lagers" by George J. Fix
>
>There may also be some other recipes in the homebrew digest archives.

And more in BT, like my article!

http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue3.5/renner.html
"Reviving the Classic American Pilsner - A Shamefully Neglected Style" by
Jeff Renner

I couldn't answer this last week as I was out of town, but Tony's pointer
is what I was going to suggest.  However, I don't think this will produce
the present Rheingold, which I understand is less characterful than the
original.  I think the original will be better.  With the tips in all three
articles, you should be able to produce a great beer.  And, as Tony
suggests, check the HBD archives.  I've made some changes to my original
recipe.  I think I posted a summary this year or maybe late last.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:42:55 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Flour in Witbeer

"Rob Compton" <Compton at btinternet.com> wrote some about flour in witbier,
evidently from a European perspective (tell us where you're writing from,
Rob), but I disagree on some points:
>Keith MacNeal said...
>
>>I made the assumption that 1 lb. of whole wheat flour = 1 lb. of whole
>wheat grain.
>
>The flour you buy in your shop will probably not contain all of the bran,
>though it will be better than using white flour.

Whole wheat flour must contain 100% of the wheat by law, at least in this
country.

>So if you want to add wheat to your mix, and you want the right stuff but
>can't get European raw wheat <snip>, try EDME Wheat Malt Extract.

Ah, but we were just saying earlier that malted wheat is not the same as
raw wheat, and not appropriate.  I'll stand by that.

Dan Klinglesmith <DakBrew at aol.com> asks

>Following the Wheat flower whit beer thread I am curious as to weather the
>wheat flower needs to be gelatinized (correct term)?

Wheat starch gelatinizes at mash temperatures so boiling is not necessary.
Corn and rice starch does not, or at least not well.


Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:23:07 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Can dry yeast packets be used for bread?

"Kris Hansen" <HanseKW at dhfs.state.wi.us> wrote:
>
>I had a quick question about dry yeast.  I have some old packets of
>Nottingham yeast that I don't want to trust for brewing and was
>wondering if I could use them for bread-making.  Has anyone tried this
>and if so, how much of the dry yeast would you use per loaf?

Why don't you try it and report back?  I wrote an article for Zymurgy a few
years back on baking and brewing and reported that yeast from a fermenter
works and gives some interesting flavors, but it is SLOW!  I'd suggest at
least two packs per loaf to start with.  Thaat's about quadruple what I
suggest for baker's yeast.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:34:51 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: I don't think Color is important.

"John Palmer" <jjpalmer at gte.net> wrote:
>I have seen
>many new all-grainers in our club and on the newsgroup
>get wrapped around the axle trying to
>control [color] in their brewing

I agree but note that a fair number of English brewers add caramel to
darken their bitters.  It seems we do drink with our eyes.  This, of
course, will confound cloning, as has been discussed here.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 11:38:52 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Black and Tan, half and half, etc.

"Charles E. Mryglot" <cmryglot at progress.com> asked
>WHat are the qualities in 2 different brews that make them separate as
>Guiness and Bass do.  e.g. how should I brew two brews that will separate to
>make a black and tan....

The Guinness has a lower final gravity (and OG as well), so it floats on
top.  You also need to have minimum mixing in the glass, so keep the
carbonation low.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 10:18:35 -0800
From: "Troy Hager" <thager at hcsd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Refrigeration Units

HBD,

Matt responded to my previous post about building a "lagering box" with a
cooling unit in it. He says:

"Get ahold of a used mid sized bar refrigerator, (not the real small
one), and take a circular saw with a abrasive wheel on it and cut most
of the front of the box off.  This will leave only the back of the unit
and the refrigeration coils (these will be dangling so be careful.  You
can use this unit to chill to whatever temp you want, just put the back
of the unit outside your fermenter box and hang the coil inside the
box."

Seems like a great idea to me! You would have to be very careful when
cutting to be sure you did not cut into the coils (I've done it before -
fixing it is a huge job!).


Troy




Troy,

Get ahold of a used mid sized bar refrigerator, (not the real small
one), and take a circular saw with a abrasive wheel on it and cut most
of the front of the box off.  This will leave only the back of the unit
and the refrigeration coils (these will be dangling so be careful.  You
can use this unit to chill to whatever temp you want, just put the back
of the unit outside your fermenter box and hang the coil inside the
box.  Let me know if you want more detail and I will try to send a
digital picture of our setup......it works great!

Matt B.
Northern VA.


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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 12:31:47 -0600
From: "Stephen and Carolyn Ross" <rosses at sprint.ca>
Subject: Even more thermometers

Brewers in Canada may be interested in Hanna Instrument's Checktemp 1
digital thermometer, which has an accuracy of +/- 0.3 C, and has a
waterproof stainless steel probe on a  1m cable. We use it in the store for
mash and water monitoring and have been very pleased with the results.
There's also the Elth, which is completely waterproof, but has an accuracy
of +/- 1 C.  If you are interested, check out
http://www.paddockwood.com/catalog_equipment.html#THERMOMETERS

 cheers,
______________________________________________
Stephen Ross

Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK
www.paddockwood.com



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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 10:59:43 -0700
From: Dana Edgell <EdgeAle at cs.com>
Subject: Hey, stop it!

MICHAEL WILLIAM MACEYKA sez:

>	Another thought, on Pat Babcocks wonder-foam stopper.  If this stopper
>allows air through, then I am not at all suprised that those yeast would grow
>more quickly and come to a higher density.  Contrary to Dana Edgall's idea
>that you don't get much air into a flask (though he was talking about a
>stirred flask, which is better for this), I have grown yeast in closed (but
>not sealed) flasks in medium that required O2 for growth.  Oxygen gets in.

Hey, I was talking about a flask with an AIRLOCK on it. I never said
anything about air not being able to get into an open flask. Even I am not
that stupid! Who started this viscious rumour?

my words from HBD#3232:

>A stir bar obviously would be better at stirring than bubbles but I think
>it would be poor for aeration. While the stir bar agitation would dissolve
>oxygen from the air inside the jar, it seems to me that that would get
>depleted rather quickly. The airlock and the CO2 from the yeast would
>prevent much more oxygen being disolved. I don't think a stir bar could
>oxygenate over the long run as well as a bubbler could stir.

Dana

- --------------------------------------------------------------
Dana Edgell              mailto:EdgeAle at cs.com
Edge Ale Brewery         http://ourworld.cs.com/EdgeAle
San Diego




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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 13:37:40 -0600 
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: more microwave maddness!

- ------------------------------
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu>

>My microwave is
>soaked!

>Next week I'll run some poodles...

For some fun, and please be careful, take a look at this page.  I had fun
zapping a CD, what a fireworks show!

http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/weird/microexp.html

Why do these crazy things?  I don't know, it's just some little voice inside
me encouraging me on.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu
http://members.xoom.com/rlabor/



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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:59:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Foaming stoppers...

Greetings, Beeerlings! Take me to your lager...

George de Piro pipes up with...
 
> It would be interesting to see if one of Pat's other cultures could be
> inducd to be as vigorous at this point by replacing the airlock with a foam
> stopper.  

I'll stuff one with one of my other foam stoppers at the next feeding
(suckers are voracious!) and will report my observations here...

 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 19:11:34 -0500
From: "S. Wesley" <WESLEY at MAINE.MAINE.EDU>
Subject: Gelatin and Agar

A friend of mine who teaches art has a visiting artist in her classes 
this week to teach a printmaking technique based on using slabs of 
set gelatin.  She was concerned about getting hold of a regular 
supply of inexpensive gelatin so I suggested that she might want to 
see if working with slabs of set Agar would work as well.  Looking 
at the brownie pans of Agar and Gelatin side by side got me thinking 
about whether or not Agar might work as a fining agent.  I realize 
that they are very different in their structure one being protein 
based and the other carbohydrate, but it might be worth a try.  I 
would do it myself, but I don't have any beer that needs fining at 
present.  Does anyone have any idea about whether or not this would 
work?

						Regards,
						Simon A. Wesley


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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 16:54:12 -0800 
From: "Jensen,Craig" <cjensen at toraycompam.com>
Subject: me too!

Troy asks for any information or tips on building a lagering box, small
cooling units, etc.  I would be interested in that information too, so
if anyone has info, please post to the HBD (or a "cc" would be
appreciated).

I was struggling to keep my ales in the proper temperature range in my
basement, so I just finished a fermentation box using plywood, foam
insulation, a small space heater, and a temperature controller.  Works
like a charm!  And...I built it large enough to accomodate my own (much
anticipated but not yet ordered) SS conical.

Craig Jensen
Spanaway, WA


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Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 18:59:19 -0600
From: Frightened Suburban Brewer <zemo at ameritech.net>
Subject: Adjustable MaltMill vs Unmalted Wheat

Please allow me to fan the grain mill flames:

Jack has lamented, here and at r.c.b., that there
is no need for adjusting/adjustable MaltMills. He
says that the fixed/set .040 gap is adequate for
most grains. (This is NOT to say that Jack thinks
adjustable MaltMills are not necessary, just that
they don't necessarily need to be adjustable.;)
After 3 years and hundreds of pounds of grain, I
would agree. However, this past weekend I made my
first plambic which included 5 lbs. of raw wheat.
Thank Jack my MaltMill is adjustable!

[Background: When I first purchased my adjustable
MaltMill, I marked the widest and narrowest gaps
on the endplate. On a scale of 1 (narrow) to 10
(wide), the factory set gap fell at 6-ish. As a
grain-crushing neophyte, I played around with
double-, fine-, and coarse-crushes, but for the
past few brewing seasons, I've left the gap at the
factory setting. (FTR - my Recipator-calculated
efficiency runs 75-85%, depending on OG.) I've
also been using a 9.6v drill to power the mill.]

My first attempt at the factory setting jammed
instantly. I adjusted to the widest gap and poured
the raw wheat through in a steady, narrow stream.
An inspection of the first crush showed a mix of
compressed, cracked, or split kernels. A second
pass at the factory setting realized mostly cracked
and split kernals; and after the final pass at the
narrowest gap, most all the kernals were halved or
quartered. This grist was combined with 9 lbs. of
Beeston's Maris Otter (crushed at factory setting)
and a half pound of rice hulls. A turbid mash (a la
Boon, with rests at 135F and 156F) was conducted.
The sparge, though a tad slower than normal despite
hotter than normal liquer, was uneventful - I use a
Fil's Falsey in a 10 gal Gott. My OG - for a 6 gal
batch after a 3 hour boil - was 1053, with a
Recipator-calculated efficiency of 65%.

So Jack, et al, I believe that the adjustability of
my MaltMill was directly responsible for the success
of this brew session. 

FTR: I have absolutely no affiliation with JSP, Inc.,
have never viewed the APoftheW, or supped the WGB -
despite brewing less than an hour away.

Naz dravni!

Zemo
Frightened Suburban Brewer
Batavia, IL

Zemo




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---