---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Sorry... (Pat Babcock)
  Wyeast response to suggested pitching practices (Chris Cooper)
  proper blowoff question (Dick Dunn)
  yeast observations and homophobia (patrick finerty)
  HERMS Manifold Bypass ("Dan Schultz")
  Easier bottling technique? (Paul Shick)
  Paragraphs and Pivos (Brian Lundeen)
  Fw: FOAM CAUGHT ON MUSTACHE COSTS DRINKERS ("Alan Meeker")
  Thanks to all; Re: ceiling splooge ("Murray, Eric")
  What is underpitching? (Bret Morrow)
  Adding Fruit Squeezings ??? (Smith Asylum)
  Too much Oxygen (Ant Hayes)
  rest or not.... (darrell.leavitt)
  re: atlanta beer ("Hull, Ted")
  ProMash and First Wort Hoppings (Jeffrey Donovan)
  First All-Grain Batch (Dryw Blanchard)
  seeds (Marc Sedam)
  High FG, mead (Dave Burley)
  "Dummy" brew (Nathan Kanous)
  Re: Real Ale Festival (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Recipe formulation help (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Question re: Higher than anticipated FG/WLP800 Pilsner-Lager (Jeff Renner)
  Duvel (Nathan Kanous)
  Belgian beers ("Jens P. Maudal")
  re: recipe formulation help (Tidmarsh Major)
  bleach, FWH, identity crisis ("Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies")
  Refreshing... (Some Guy)
  re: High finishing gravity (Lou.Heavner)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 17:46:40 -0500
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Sorry...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Been a pretty sporadic week! Server crashed Sunday at reboot, back up 
Monday. Kaboom! Back down again Thursday and finally back up. Yow!

Our apologies for any inconvenience/withdrawal symptoms/depression/coma 
experienced by anyone. No hardware failures this time - one network oops 
followed by a janitor oops - both encumbered by my inability to get over to 
the server to fix things during O&E's normal hours of operation. No 
permanent damage in either case.

And a big thanks to Greg Day, Director of IT for Observer & Eccentric 
Newspapers. Not only does he host our servers gratis, but he broke away 
from his home activities Saturday afternoon to let me in to fix up the 
server!

 -
See ya!
Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock/
"Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."




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Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 11:26:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Chris Cooper <ccooper at a2607cc.msr.hp.com>
Subject: Wyeast response to suggested pitching practices

Greetings All!
A couple of weeks back I posted the following request to the HBD:

~As Wyeast is a major supplier to the Home Brew market place I wonder if
~they (Wyeast Lab's) would supply this forum with the following information:
~   #  Your thoughts on the ideal starter size for a pseudo standard
~      size 5-gal(US) batch of Ale.
~   #  Your thoughts on the ideal starter size for a pseudo standard
~      size 5-gal(US) batch of Lager (Pils).
~   #  Your suggestion on techniques for stepping up a 50(ml) Smack-Pack
~      to the appropriate starter volume (using standard Home Brew supplies
~      , i.e. DME, Growler Jugs, 22oz bottles, yeast nutrients, etc.).
~   #  Any other recomendations or "recipes for success" with regards to
~      proper handling and useage of your product in the Home Brewery.

The following reply was sent to me by David Logsdon of Wyeast, with his
permission to submit it to this forum:

>Thank you for the opportunity to address some of the questions you 
>have regarding yeast propagation and yeast handling. Much has transpired
>in the 15 years we have been producing yeast for homebrewers. 
>
>Initial yeast packages of yeast we produced then, had a target cell
>count of dry yeast which was the only thing available to homebrewers
>at that time. Since then our cell counts have been increased significantly.
>
>To obtain an ideal pitching rate, the viability of the yeast, the
>oringinal gravity of the wort and the dissolved oxygen are all variables
>which need to be addressed. There are many ways to achieve the desired
>results, the following scenarios are suggestions.
>
>For making 5 gallons of ale, 1.040 - 1.050 original gravity, add 50 mls of
>active yeast to a 500 ml starter solution of dry malt extract made up to an
>original gravity of 1.040, boiled, cooled to 75 F and aerated. Continue
>frequent agitation to supply as much O2 as possible. Typically within 24
>hours, when the starter is in high kerausen it could be transferred to 5
>gallons of wort or continued to propagate by adding to 1500 ml of
>additional malt extract as prepared above, for higher gravity wort or
>higher pitching rates. It would be ready to transfer to 20 liters in 24 hours.
>
>50 mls of lager yeast can be started in a smaller volume (200 mls) for the
>first 24 hours at 75 F. Then stepped down to 65 F for 24 hours in 1 liter
>of malt extract wort s.g. 1.040, then transferred to 2 liters of wort at
>55 F for 24-48 hours prior to pitching into 20 liters.
>
>Key points are : Producing sterile wort with aseptic handling. Many people
>feel that wort is unstabile and that contaminants will grow if not
>protected by the yeast. This is generally untrue. If contaminat organisms
>are present in the wort, they will grow along with the yeast. Adequately
>boiled and cooled wort should remain free of growth for 72 hours if left
>unpitched. That is a commercial brewery standard.  Provide adequate
>aeration (dissolved oxygen), even adding more O2 the day after brewing.
> 
>Pitching on high kerausen. 
>It is a general rule to make increases or transfers in 5 to 10 fold
>increments. Making the transfer on high kerausen with good aeration has a
>greater impact than any other aspect of propagation. That is why the many
>people who do not make starters, but pitch fresh yeast from an activated
>package into well aerated sterile (stable) wort, can make good beer too.
>Like most things in life, the more one puts into it the more they get out
>of it. 
 
I also sent a follow-up request to clarify one point, should the entire
starter be pitched or should the starter "beer" be decanted, and recieved
the following reply:

>Regarding whether to decant the starter, typically if the starter is in
>High kerausen, decanting the liquid may be difficult, particularly for some
>strains, without pouring away lots of yeast. Some strains may be ok if they
>are flocced out by nature or if terminal gravity is reached and they are
>settled.

I would like to thank David Logsdon for taking the time to answer my
request and follow up by reissuing the challenge to any other yeast suppliers
to the homebrew market which monitor this forum to also reply.

 
Chris Cooper, Pine Haven Brewing (aka. Debbi's Kitchen) {at least in winter!}
Commerce, Michigan    Member, Ann Arbor Brewer's Guild
(Approximately 25 miles from 0.0 Renerian)



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Date: 8 Mar 00 09:37:03 MST (Wed)
From: rcd at raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: proper blowoff question

Has anyone experienced a blowoff-blowout and "ceiling splooge" when using a
*proper* carboy/blowoff setup?  By "proper" I mean a blowoff tube which
just fits inside the neck of a carboy--nominally 1.25" OD, 1" ID.

I suppose you could still clog a tube that large, but I've never heard of
it happening, so I'm curious about the experiences of the collective.
 _ _ _ _ _

It is not surprising that the small-diameter "blowoff" as suggested in
T[N]CJOHB and other places doesn't work.  In fact, what's surprising is
that such a dumb idea hasn't been laid to rest in the 15+ years that it's
been floating around and encouraging newbies to decorate their ceilings
in shades of taupe.  The difference between the 3/8" OD tubing suggested
in TNCJOHB and the 1.25" OD tubing for a real blowoff is a factor of 16 in
cross-section...that's a qualitative difference.  Most folks don't even use
tubing as small as 3/8" OD for racking!...let alone for a blowoff.
- ---
Dick Dunn          rcd at talisman.com          Hygiene, Colorado  USA
   ...Simpler is better.


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Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:01:32 -0500 (EST)
From: patrick finerty <zinc at zifi.psf.sickkids.on.ca>
Subject: yeast observations and homophobia

howdy,

wow, who would think i could talk about both things in one post?
unfortunately they're not related....

i recently brewed a 10 gal batch of porter. lately i've been pitching
two different strains for the same batch (haven't tried different
quantities or temps yet). this last batch showed the biggest variation
i've observed. here are the details:

yeast 1: Yeast Labs Irish Ale Yeast (IA)
yeast 1: Yeast cultured from a bottle of Red Hook Hefeweizen (RH)

starter cultures of both were prepared in the lab in a similar manner.
i'm fairly certain i pitched the same quantity of each strain but did
nothing to verify this (this is a biochem lab w/o a high power
microscope or hemocytometer). 

after spinning down the 1 L cultures in a centrifuge there was one odd
thing; while the RH yeast pelleted completely at the low RPMs i used,
the IA yeast was still cloudy. in general, yeast definitely pellet
more easily than bacteria (they're much larger) and the cloudiness of
the IA starter after spinning had me concerned. however, it smelled
fine and the resulting beer does not taste contaminated and for that
matter, different yeast strains behave differently so this may mean
nothing (diff floculation props, size, etc).

both batches ended at the same gravity but the IA yeast batch needed
more time and didn't finish until part way through the secondary. i
also aerated it more while in the primary after the fermentation
appeared to be stuck. 

THE PUNCH LINE is that the beer prepared using the IA yeast tastes
watery and thin compared to the beer prepared with the RH yeast which
has great mouthfeel and is really quite good. i'm serving this at my
St. Patrick's day party on the 17th. drop me a line if you're in
Toronto...

here's the recipe and gravity details if that matters to you:

Ingredients for 10 gal:

7.3 kg (16.0 lb) pale two row
1.8 kg (4.0 lb) Munich Malt
450 g (1.0 lb) English Crystal
340 g (.75 lb) Chocolate Malt 
181 g (.4 lb) Black Patent Malt
600 ml Canadien Clover Honey 
77 g Columbus Leaf Hops (15.3% aa) 
84 g Cascade Leaf Hops (1/2 for dry hop, 5.2% aa)
Irish Moss ( at  20 min)
Redhook or Irish ale yeast

Procedure:

  Mash: 153 F for 80 min.
Sparge: 170 F
  Boil: 90 min

Boil additions:

 0 min: 21 g Columbus Hops
30 min: 600 ml honey (stir like crazy!)
30 min: 28 g Columbus Hops
60 min: 28 g Columbus Hops
70 min: irish moss
90 min: 42 g Cascade Hops

ferment  at  ~64-68 F

gravity readings:
prior to boil:		1.0 (hot reading)
after chilling:		1.064-1.065
Sun			RH=1.051=IA
Mon			RH=1.031=IA
Wed			RH=1.020, IA=1.024
Sun			RH=1.012, IA=1.019  (stirred IA to oxygenate)
Wed			RH=1.011, IA=1.013  (racked to secondary)
final			RH=1.012=IA

=========
irrelevant opinions regarding Fred's bar experiences...


On March 7, 2000, fred_garvin at fan.com wrote:

 > Am I a homophobe?

yes. however, i don't think it's wrong to be uncomfortable in the
situations you described. it's just that there really is no reason for
you to be uncomfortable.

for instance, are you the type of person who thinks that when a woman
in a bar has a conversation with you this means she also wants to jump
into bed with you? probably that's not the case.

so, why should you think that's the case for men you meet?

 -patrick in toronto
- -- 
       "There is only one aim in life and that is to live it."
 Karl Shapiro,(1959) from an essay on Henry Miller's Tropic of Cancer
	      finger pfinerty at nyx10.nyx.net for PGP key
		 http://abragam.med.utoronto.ca/~zinc


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Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 09:33:04 -0800
From: "Dan Schultz" <dschultz at primenet.com>
Subject: HERMS Manifold Bypass

I am in the final phase of uprgrading my bewing system to a HERMS
(aka HE-Man RIMS) system. My current prognostication (sp?) is
whether I should add a 3-way valve in order to be able to bypass
the heat exchange manifold in the liquor tank?

I am trying to think of when I would want to bypass the HE-Man.
The two that come to mind are when just recirculating or when
trying to lower the temp slightly using the external plumbing as
a natural radiator (if I don't insulate it).

Any thoughts?

Burp,
 -Dan



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Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 14:32:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Shick <SHICK at JCVAXA.jcu.edu>
Subject: Easier bottling technique?

 


Hello all,

	I thought that the collective might like a nice
practical post, to balance all of the theoretical discussion
on yeast metabolism and pitching rates.  (Which I enjoy, by
the way, when it remains friendly.)

	I've been thinking a lot about the mechanics of bottling,
in response to two consecutive 10 gallon batches where the kegged
halves were quite good, but the bottled halves had serious infections.
My approach to bottling, up until now, has involved soaking a 6
gallon "bottling bucket" (plastic bucket with drum tap) in bleach
water for a day or two, soaking/rinsing the bottles and putting them
on a sanitized bottle rack, draining/rinsing the bottling bucket, 
purging it with CO2, adding primings (boiled in microwave with water,)
then siphoning from the carboy to the bottling bucket, attaching a
brass philler (sanitized in bleach or iodophor) and filling/capping.
I'm certain that the siphon tube and bottles have been okay, so 
that the likely culprit has been the bucket and/or the tap and its
rubber gaskets.  How anything survives a 2 day soak in bleach water
is beyond me, but the infections have happened (although not in all 
batches....  I had two bad batches followed by a good one, with the
same procedures and same equipment.  Such are the trials of lager
brewing, where you wait quite a while to sample.)

	I'm getting increasingly distrustful of chemical sanitizing
these days, prefering heat whenever possible, so that I'm doing more and
more fermenting in stainless steel and pyrex.  I decided to use this
approach to bottling, too.  George DePiro wrote awhile back about
bottling from the keg (not counter-pressure bottling, but rather using
primings.)  I decided to try a variant on this which worked amazingly 
smoothly a few days ago.

	I kegged 10 gallons of German Pilsner, force carbonating one
keg, while leaving the other with just its residual carbonation. Pushing 
a short length of 3/8 inch tube over a picnic faucet attached to the out 
fitting of the keg gave me a nice fitting to attach my philler to.  Setting 
the CO2 pressure at 5-8psi yielded a very smooth flow (through my filler, one 
of the narrower types.  You might need a lower pressure.)  I filled as many 
bottles as I needed (to about 3/4 inch from the rim) and then added two of 
Domenick Venezia's PrimeTabs to each bottle.  After a minute or so, each 
bottle had foamed up almost to the rim, at which point I capped.  The whole 
process was very easy, especially compared to my previous bottling regime.

	My hope is that the various factors involved have conspired to yield
about 2.5 volumes of CO2 in the bottles.  My quick calculations show that
there should be about 1.3 volumes in the beer at 45F, and that each PrimeTab
should add about .7 volumes.  I guessed at losing about .2-.3 volumes in the
filling/priming process.  We'll see in a few weeks how  close these are to
reasonable Pilsner carbonation levels.

	Since I can use heat to sanitize almost everthing involved (except
a small bit of tubing and the picnic faucet,) I'm much more confident that
I'm avoiding infection.  My keg sanitation lately uses 170-180F water with
PBW for a 20 minute soak, forced out through the out fitting and hose, 
followed by iodophor soaking, so there shouldn't be any bugs (nor any crud 
for them to grow in.)  I also soaked the brass philler in hot PBW, then 
iodophor, so another possible hiding place should be gone.  

	The thing that makes all this doable, of course, is the PrimeTab 
product:  it makes individual bottle priming reliable and sanitary.  Others
have been priming individual bottles by a variety of methods, but they
generally don't seem as easy or safe.  

	By the way, George DePiro's approach involved priming the entire keg 
of beer, then dispensing into the bottles more or less as above.  One advantage
of my approach is that you can put aside enough bottles for competitions or
friends, then leave the remainder in the keg to force carbonate.

	Hmmm, this was supposed to be a short post.  Sorry to be so windy.

   			Paul Shick 
 			Basement brewing in Cleveland Hts OH

 



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Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 13:59:06 -0600 
From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at post.rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: Paragraphs and Pivos

> Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 04:27:42 -0500
> From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
> Subject: Paragraphs
> 
> Hi.
> 
> Some of you seem to have forgotten about paragraphs.  You know -- a
> small unit of writing, containing several sentences, which introduces
> an idea, discusses it briefly, and then ties it up.

Well said, and I would just like to add, I wish Mr Burley would format to
more than 4 or 5 words per line. You have some interesting comments, Dave,
but sometimes I will just skip over them because it is too hard on my eyes.
Were you a newspaper columnist in a previous life? ;-)

> Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2000 13:17:05 +0100
> From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
> Subject: the ultimate truth(s)

(much clippage)

> Pivisms: (excusing the other Dr. Pivos... in true pivonian style they
> have gone on to discover other "truths").

(and much more clippage)

At the risk of being branded a Pivophile (try mentioning that to your
friends and co-workers and watch them edge away...), damn, but you are
entertaining.

But I'm curious, what happens if one Pivo writes something that another Pivo
disagrees with? Would we ever see a Pivo vs Pivo clash on the HBD? How do
you manage a collective identity, assuming that you are not Borg (which
reminds me, does anyone else ever wonder how differently Bjorn Borg's life
would have been if his parents had named him Cyrus)? 

Cheers

Brian


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Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 11:59:49 -0500
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Fw: FOAM CAUGHT ON MUSTACHE COSTS DRINKERS



>From the latest Real Beer page:

 STUDY FINDS FOAM CAUGHT ON MUSTACHE COSTS DRINKERS
 A study commissioned by brewing giant Guinness discovered that bearded
 men waste an alarming amount of beer compared to clean-shaven men. The
 study conducted in the United Kingdom -- but not the Republic of Ireland
 or Northern Ireland -- found that an estimated 92,370 drinkers with
 mustaches lose about 162,719 pints of Guinness in their facial hair each
 year, and that beer is worth about 423,000 pounds ($675,900).

 I don't look on it as being waste - more like your own personal stash for
 hard times. Plus it's just the thing for souring a portion of your favorite
 Guinness clone - just dip in the old beard at pitching time.

 -Alan Meeker
  Lazy Eight Brewery  'The possibilities are limitless."
  Baltimore, MD




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Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 17:10:28 -0500
From: "Murray, Eric" <emurray at sud-chemieinc.com>
Subject: Thanks to all; Re: ceiling splooge

First off, thanks to all for the mass amount of good, valuable information
that you fellow home brewers provided me. I now feel confident enough to
spend a little money, and get started with all grain. I usually just lurk in
this group, reading my hbd daily while I get my morning fix of caffeine.
However, today I feel a little spunky.


Dave wrote:
>I graduated from fermenting
>primaries in carboys at an early
>brewing age when I got tired of
>cleaning up the mess and realized
>that any kind of overflow hose
>( even before I saw this "solution"
>in CP's book)  would be a
><potential> for infection, eventually.

Dave,
I "graduated" from fermenting in buckets after my first few batches a couple
years ago. I guess I don't have a problem with any messes because I use a
6.5 gal carboy with a standard air lock. I personally prefer this method
since I can see what's happening with my brew at all times without the risk
of contamination. I also don't bleach or boil my smack packs. A simple swipe
with a cotton ball full of alcohol suffices for me. I have never "knock on
wood" had a spoiled batch of beer in the couple of years I have been
brewing.

IMO, most of the literature on brewing, and a lot of advice is overly
concerned with sanitation. I have developed the attitude that I just rinse
my tools in a little idophor based water, and not to worry about sanitation
beyond that. I heard second hand from a guy who worked at a brewery, that
all they used was hot water. This would not surprise me given the fact that
people have been brewing beer for at least 6000 years without the benefit of
having anything to sanitize with. Only in recent history has their been
evidence of microorganisms and other 'unsanitary' concerns.

Well that's enough for now,, I thought I would do an experiment of posting a
reply to the hbd and see how it went.

Thanks again to all (It's time to tap an Oatmeal stout of my keg!)
Eric




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Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 23:24:29 -0500
From: Bret Morrow <bret.morrow at prodigy.net>
Subject: What is underpitching?

Greetings,

All the fluff about yeast counts have made me actually look up my notes
and see what I call "underpitching."  What I call underpitching for my
English bitters and IPAs is from 800 to 1800 ml of yeast starter.
Sometimes I will pitch the whole starter and others, I will simply use
the "yeast cake."  I must admit my tasting notes do not show any notable
differences with regards to potential faults.

The point I think I'm a trying to test here is that I think that most of
us are probably pitching about the same amount of yeast.
"Underpitching", according to Bud standards, is more likely the norm for
homebrewers.  The massive underpitching, e.g. using a single smack pak,
into 5 gall of green beer is not the norm for most homebrewers who post
to this list.  (If it is norm for you--try a starter, it could help your
beer).  SO, what is your starter volume? or number of yeast cells, if
you have that data.  Additionally, the type of beer being made may or
may not be important with regard to the size of the starter.

I do not know, however, how many yeast cells I have pitched.  I have
been playing around with methylene (sp?) blue to attempt to determine
these numbers, but to date I have no actual data.  Does anyone have
yeast cell counts for real homebrew situations (no librarians need to
respond).  This information could help me estimate what I should be
seeing, in the way of numbers.  If he's reading, George DiPiro probably
has some data with regards to a small brewery which maybe similar
(right?).

A second issue with regards to counting yeast cells is the method used
to count.  Without going into to many details, the proper methods are
necessary to get a good estimate of these numbers.  This issue is
addressed in more details than most people want to know in several books
and research articles--if you are interested, I can email cites to you.
Please note that these are HARD CORE REAL SCIENCE.  Supplying details
about how the number of cells were estimated would be nice (OK,
necessary).

So, show us your starter volumes!

Bret Morrow (writer of real size paragraphs),
Hamden, CT



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Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 22:02:35 -0700
From: Smith Asylum <smithly at neta.com>
Subject: Adding Fruit Squeezings ???

Question for the guru's of brew.  At what point in the process of
brewing should one go about adding fruit squeezings?  What should I do
about the sugar content in the juice?  I'd like to make a lemon spiked
Heff-Weizen and as I recall sugar isn't used until priming.  Would the
acid in the juice affect the fermentation?  Is there a specil strain of
yeast I should use?

I just signed up for the digest.  I should have known earlier that
something like this would be available.

Thanks for your interest,
Lee Smith
smithly at neta.com
Chandler, AZ


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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:49:47 +0200 
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: Too much Oxygen

I am busy working through an SA Breweries textbook for staff. In the chapter
on yeast management, they make two assertions that were debated at our club
meeting last night:

1. For lager brewing, as little of the cold break as possible should be
allowed into the primary fermenter.

2. It is possible to add too much oxygen initially.

Both assertions were in the context of pitching sufficient yeast to ferment
out, whilst minimising yeast growth.

This runs against our club's conventional wisdom that:

1. Cold break is desirable for yeast health
2. One should get as much oxygen into the wort at the start of fermentation
as possible.

Do people generally employ settling tanks when brewing lagers?
What are the side effects of too much oxygen at the start of fermentation?

Ant Hayes
Johannesburg


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Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 07:03:59 -0500 (EST)
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: rest or not....

Dan Senne ask if he should rest at 104 F...then boost to 156 or so......well,
what I have read here and elsewhere would call for a beta rest at 147 F,
and an alpha rest around 158 F.....Fix (and Renner and DePiro,...and numerous
others) seem to state that these are optimal temps for both amylases......
ANd, isn't it true that because the malts Dan lists are already highly mod-
ified that a glucan rest  at  104 is not needed?.../ or more correctly that
the 113-130 degree "corridor" is not needed....Where are the expurts?
 ..Darrell


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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 05:17:53 -0800 
From: "Hull, Ted" <THull at Brwncald.com>
Subject: re: atlanta beer

"Fred Garvin's" trip to Atlanta sounds quite interesting.

Yes, the majority of the brewpubs in town are in Buckhead, or Butthead, as
I've been known to call it.  From your description of your trip, it sounds
like you fit right in.  Glad to hear the beer was tasty too.

With the exception of the fact that the best restaurants are in that part of
town, it tends to be more of a place to find folks either having their glory
days or trying to relive those days.  Well, at least in the sense of
drinking a lot and overpaying for parking.  Oops, I forgot the
full-length-mink-wearing-former-NFL-star-now-accused-murderer portion of the
crowd.

And, this may come as a shock, Atlanta's gay community tends to avoid
Buckhead in favor of Midtown and other areas. The folks "Fred" saw were more
likely silly OTP'ers (Outside The Perimeter, i.e. suburbanites).

YMMV

Ted Hull
Atlanta, GA



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Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 05:56:00 -0800
From: Jeffrey Donovan <jeffrey at promash.com>
Subject: ProMash and First Wort Hoppings

Hello HBD'rs!

I just wanted to clarify a fact about ProMash and First Wort Hops. Because 
of the FWH discussions in previous HBD's, as of last December (when Version 
1.3.b was released)  ProMash allows you increase or decrease the amount of 
utilization for FWH contribution,  based on what YOU think to be 
true.  Simply goto the system settings, hop section. There you will find an 
entry for the FWH utilization.

Thought I would pass this on as a few users seem to have missed the change 
(prior to V 1.3b, FWH's were always considered to have equal to or more 
utilization than full boil additions).

Cheers!

 - Jeffrey Donovan


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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 05:56:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Dryw Blanchard <dryw9680 at yahoo.com>
Subject: First All-Grain Batch

This is my first post to the HBD and I have a question
about brewing an all grain batch.  I would like to
know how much water you use in the mashtun.  Does the
consistency look like oatmeal or is it a lot of water
with the grains floating throughout? Does it matter as
long as you stay at the appropriate temperature for
the correct amount of time?  I know that this may not
be on the same level with most of the discussions, but
how about you advanced brewers throwing us beginners a
bone.  TIA for the replys.

Dryw Blanchard
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com


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Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 09:04:32 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: seeds

Visit Johnny's Selected Seeds [http://www.johnnyseeds.com]

They have it all!  Last year I grew some German chamomile
and blessed thistle for an herb beer...then the landscapers
"weeded" out my work.  But the seeds grew quickly.  I do
recall seeing a few varieties of heather in there.

Cheers!
Marc
"Huisbrouwerij Zuytdam"



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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:19:43 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: High FG, mead

Brewsters:

Darrell used 10 pounds of malt in 3
gallons and then at the end of a
30 minute hold at 148F and 154F
got a positive test for iodine.
Adding another 1 pound of malt
and 45 minutes at 158F finally got
a negative for iodine.  His FG
after the boil was 1.15 and adding
a gallon of water came to 1.07 and

Somehow your numbers don't
make a lot a sense. Adding a
gallon of water after the boil to
perhaps 2 gallons of pre-boil
wort which would come down to
about a gallon after the boil could
give you the reduction in OG you
suggest, but 11 pounds of malt in
2 gallons of beer and an OG of
only 1.07 doesn't make sense.

I assume you ended up at 1.07
with 5 gallons of beer.

 Why did this iodine persist?

 1) possibly a temperature problem
 - check your thermometer.

 2) likely a milling problem -
 mill finer and if possible do a
two-pass milling to get it fine
enough and good lauter.

 3) Heating from 148F to 154F
you may have overheated
Always stir continuously

4) High concentrations of grist
( although your 3 gallons and
10 pounds should be OK) will
slow the saccharifying enzyme
activity.

If your enzyme system was not
compromised and the temperatures
were OK then I am pretty sure it
is your milling.

I suggest you acquire a cheap
SS 4 gallon kettle to
allow you to do a full boil.

If you bottled this beer two weeks
after you pitched a vial of yeast,
It may be that  it was not finished
fermenting and this will easily
explain the high FG you experienced.
 
I suggest a face shield and
big gloves when you test your
first bottle. Seriously!
- -------------------------------------
Dick Dunn says:

"Realize that meads are no where
near as susceptible to contamination
as beers"

I'd like a further explanation of
that, please as I can't help but
feel that unpasteurized, diluted
honey would have scads ( that's
 >10^ 6/ml) of bio-contaminants
 - far more than a boiled wort.
- -------------------

Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley


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Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 08:38:21 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: "Dummy" brew

Steve,
The thought that comes to my mind is that no matter what you do, these guys 
are going to shy away from "dark" beer.   Lead them in with something they 
want.  I'll offer three suggestions.  First is a Classic American 
Pilsner.  Show them you can brew something similar to what they already 
like but with real beer flavor.  You could get away with a neutral ale yeast.

If you do that, you may consider calling it a Cream Ale, but this isn't 
about style guidelines, it's about converting people.  That is my second 
suggestion, be a Cream Ale that is just a CAP made with an ale yeast.  This 
may not be exactly what a cream ale is but should be sufficient for your 
"project".

The last I would mention would be an American Wheat.  You could make a very 
nice beer that these guys wouldn't be afraid of and wouldn't cause them any 
trepidation with experimenting with.  A german weizen would be nice, but 
could be a tough style to hit and could be too "bold" for your friends.

Don't force them to come to you.  Go to them.  Give them what they 
want....light "colored" beer.  You can make it very flavorful and increase 
their willingness to try your other beers, eventually learning to enjoy a 
dry stout!

Just my $0.02
nathan in madison, wi


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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 08:52:35 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Real Ale Festival

Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us> asks

>I haven't seen any postings about the upcoming Real Ale Festival in
>Chicago. Anyone from the HBD going?

There was an unfortunate conflict between this and MCAB 2 in St Louis March
24-26, and the Ann Arbor contingency (seven of us) are going to that, along
with others that I know of from other parts of Michigan.  I'm afraid this
may well cut into the attendance of both and jeopardize the success of
both.  Not sure how this could have been avoided by coordination, but it
would be good to look out for in the future.  I would think HBD would be a
good forum for coordination.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:09:30 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Recipe formulation help

Steve Nagley <SRNagley at aol.com> writes:

>I don't know if the rest of you have them but several of my
>friends, including my golf partner, are of the Bud/Miller/Coors
>ilk.

Do the rest of us have your friends?  Why, are they missing?  I don't have
them.  Have you checked the 19th hole?

>They see me drinking a beer that actually has some color
>to it and immediately say "I don't like dark beer." My mission
>has been stated and it is to brew a batch of dark beer that these
>guys will drink and enjoy. Maybe even have some flavor (heaven
>forbid - but hey, I've got to drink it too).

If you aren't entirely committed to you mission to get them to drink a dark
beer, how about this tack?  Brew a very pale beer that looks like
Bud/Miller/Coors but has flavor.  I think that your friend's could be won
over to tasty beer if they aren't put off by the color.  Many people
associate color with strong flavor, as you point out, and you may never get
past this with them.  Once you have them on to flqvor, you can introduce
some color.

  Ordinarily I'd suggest a CAP, but you say you can't brew a lager.  How
about a CACA (Classic American Cream Ale)?  Brew a 1.044, 25% flaked maize,
25 IBU with BWH noble hops and ferment with 1056 or Nottingham.  I'd
suggest a cold conditioning of as many bottles as you can cram into the
fridge to allow chill haze to form and settle out, or try chill proofing
with polyclar, being sure to allow for the reduction of bitterness this
will produce.

I have found that CAPs and CACAs both appeal to the Bud crowd if they
aren't entirely afraid of flavor.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:25:06 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Question re: Higher than anticipated FG/WLP800 Pilsner-Lager

darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu writes:

>I know
>(or more accurately, I think that I know..) that the addition of the final
>pound
>of Optic was probably, perhaps, most likey, ...not needed...but is this
>what did it for the final gravity?  OR, is it that the crystal and caravienne
>leave a lot of unfermentables?

I agree that you probably didn't need the extra pound.  I think iodine
tests are unnecessary if you've got good malt and a good thermometer.  The
high mash temp of that final probably did contribute some unfermentables.
And so did the crystal and caravienne.  But another likely suspect you
haven't mentioned is the 4 lbs. of Munich.  It's been my
suspiscion/experience and that f others (recently posted) that this is less
fermentable than pale malts.  This could easily explain your 66% apparent
attenuation.

A higher pitching rate wouldn't have hurt, but i think you've got enough
other explanations.

 -=-=-

I think the apparent resumption of fermentation of your lager when you
raised it to 60F was simply excess CO2 fizzing out (technical term) at the
higher temp, not vigorous fermentation.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 08:46:14 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Duvel

Duck,
My suggestion would not to be so complicated.  Make the brew as you suggest 
and ferment at the temps as you suggest UNTIL FERMENTATION IS 
COMPLETE.  You may not be able to get complete attenuation in 6 
days.  Don't get too caught up in the rest of the process.  You cannot 
repeat what they do in your basement.

Cold conditioning is nice.  Can you really replicate their process in your 
basement?  I would just brew it like a normal brew and give it some cold 
conditioning at some point.  I wouldn't adhere to their process just to do 
it.  Use the skills / facilities you have to the best of your abilities.

Two other thoughts.  First, you mention "summer barley with a color of 2.5 
to 5.5."  This is European coloring notation which is different than the 
Lovibond system.  This is a "pilsner" type of malt, IMHO.

Second, the last addition of dextrose before bottling is added to reach an 
APPARENT original gravity of 1.073.  If you actually fermented out and then 
added several pounds of dextrose to bring the actual gravity up to 1.073, I 
don't think you'd have beer anymore.  Zima?  I think you knew this already, 
but I just felt the need for some clarification.

Again, I wouldn't adhere closely to their procedures, use what works for 
you, not for them.  I've got a similar beer on my agenda, but I'm not going 
to follow their procedures.  I'm gonna do it my way.

Hope this helps.
nathan in madison, wi




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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 14:46:38 +0100
From: "Jens P. Maudal" <jens.maudal at c2i.net>
Subject: Belgian beers

I have gone crazy on making Belgian beers of all
kinds, but my endless searching on the net havn't
come up with much help on recipe suggestiones.
I feel I need more background knowledge for
recipe making.
I t is easy to find info on Lagers and British ale, but I
find very little info on Belgian Beers. Am I looking
in the wrong places.
Can anybody suggest some good sites or even
better a good book on making these beers.
Skaal!
Jens
- --
Jens P.Maudal     e-mail: jens.maudal at c2i.net
Drammen
Norway   

Greetings from "BottomsUp Brewery"

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
My humble page: http://home.c2i.net/bottomsup/index.htm
Norbrygg: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~ketilf/norbrygg.cgi
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++




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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:29:08 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
From: Tidmarsh Major <ctmajor at samford.edu>
Subject: re: recipe formulation help

Steve Nagley asks for suggestions to color a beer without 
too much flavor for his friends who are afraid of the dark.

How about some caramel coloring?  I recall awhile back that
someone posted a link to some prohibition-era homebrew 
notes that included instructions for caramelizing cane 
sugar to color the beer.  Why not give that a try? 
Caramelizing sugar isn't too difficult, and many cookbooks 
include instructions, which basically amount to heating the 
sugar while stirring until it melts and darkens.  I don't 
have suggestions for amount of sugar to provide some color, 
anyone want to hazard a guess?  You might check the online 
scans of Wahl-Henius for turn-of-the-century 
recommendations for caramel addition rates.

Regards,
Tidmarsh Major
Birmingham, Alabama



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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 09:43:19 -0600
From: "Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies" <orders at paddockwood.com>
Subject: bleach, FWH, identity crisis

On the use of BLEACH:

Dave Burley wonders:

"how many HBers dip the
packet and scissors in diluted bleach
and then briefly into boiled water
before opening, as I always do?
You really shouldn't tear it open
with your teeth or fingers unless
you flame them first!  {8^) "

I agree with Dave that teeth and fingers are less than optimal.  Remember
that most dilute bleach solutions used by homebrewers need  20 minutes
contact time. Stronger bleach solutions that need less contact time may need
a little more than a quick dip in boiled water to rinse off the bleach.

StarSan needs 30 seconds. A quick spray of StarSan solution on the packet,
scissors, and hands will do the trick, and needs no rinse. IMHO, the better
solution (no pun intended).


On FWH and IDENTITY:

Jack Duncan posts <jduncan1 at ford.com> that in his experience is that FWH
bitterness is similar to late addition hopping.  (To clarify, Steve Cavan
didn't post the opposing view, I did.  We work at the same place, and
sometimes the account says 'Cavan'. Apologies for any confusion.  I'm
Stephen ROSS, and it was my non-scientific posting, my faults and mistakes
are mine, mine, all mine, not Cavan's. He doesn't make mistakes usually.
   )

Jack's reference (http://brewery.org/library/1stwort.html) is excellent, but
note that the hops in this experiment were noble varieties, with little
total bitterness to contribute anyway.  Fix found that steeping the hops
first in no way disables their bittering power.  Therefore, adding the hops
to the wort first will contribute at LEAST the same amount of IBUs as adding
them to the start of the boil, but the perceived flavour is mellower, and
you shouldn't lower the amount of hops used.

Jack is absolutely correct that ProMash lets you modify how the FWH is
calculated. We have ours set for 10% INCREASE in bittering.  Warning: more
non-science ahead:  I've made ESBs with entirely FWH Target & Challenger
plugs and the bitterness was fine. Not 50% of what was expected, as Jack's
experience would suggest.

But I think we can agree that the amount of bitterness contributed by
'normal' FWH (aroma varieties usually added late boil)  is not a large
proportion of the total IBU, and that the flavour resulting is preferable to
late boil additions.

cheers,

Stephen Ross -- "Vitae sine cerevesiae sugat."
______________________________________________
Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK
orders at paddockwood.com  www.paddockwood.com




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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 10:50:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Refreshing...


Greetings, Beerings! Take me to your lager...

A recent post I just reviewed was signed "Hope this helps". 

Hope this helps. How refreshing! I remember when MOST of the Digest
postings were signed in this way.

Hope this helps. That simple statement fully describes the spirit in which
the Digest was conceived and in which the Digest is run, and I truly wish
more posts were written with the ability to include that signature as the
goal.

Think about it.

Hope this helps!

 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 10:22:28 -0600
From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com
Subject: re: High finishing gravity

     Jbstrunk at aol.com writes:

     Recently my extract beers have been finishing with a sg around 1.02 or so.
     Any comments on how I can get them closer to 1.01 or lower??  I am brewing
     IPA's and Scotch Ales.  A brewer friend says not to worry since they have
     lots of unfermentabales in them, but unlike Charlie I do worry about my
     homebrew.  Thanks in advance.

     1) Were you achieving lower FG's previously?  What has changed besides
     the OG?  Has the FG/OG ratio changed?
     2) Verify/validate your hydrometer & technique for measuring SG.
     3) If you are using laaglander extracts, switch to another brand.
     4) Pitch more yeast.
     5) Increase oxygenation at pitching time.
     6) Try the Dave Burley Clinitest test to verify fermentation is
     essentially complete.  I'm sure he will be happy to supply the details
     of his method off-line.  ;)  If it isn't finished, let it ferment
     longer.  Try rousing the yeast or adding more fresh yeast if this seems
     to be the problem.
     7) Try a more attenuative yeast.
     8) Listen to your friend. Relax....

     Cheers!

     Lou Heavner - Austin, TX


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---