---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Will the real Pivo stand up? ("Drew Avis")
  Lovibond Ratings and Recipe (Alan Monaghan)
  RE: Clone: Red Stripe Lager ("Murray, Eric")
  Re:Duvel and Pivo-Meeker XXXIV (Brian Lundeen)
  Burners (Richard Foote)
  Wine from Concentrate ("Jack Schmidling")
  John Richardson, You Will Be Missed (Jeffrey Donovan)
  Re: Hop cultivation ("Wayne or Cathy Love")
  Mash Hopping = Permanent Haze? (Matthew Comstock)
  multi-step mashes / South African yeast and cold break / malicious posts ("George de Piro")
  Angry Beer Gods ("Val J. Lipscomb")
  Duvel,High S.G.,&Orval (BIL2112L)
  RHEMS bypass (The Holders)


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Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 08:30:16 PST
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Will the real Pivo stand up?

Steve Nagley (SRNagley at aol.com) in HBD 3268 writes:

>How many "Dr Pivo's" are
>there anyway? Should they be forced to append a Roman numeral to
>their assumed title in order to keep them straight?

Good suggestion, Steve, I think we should all make a desperate gold rush for 
Pivonian numerals to post after our names... Perhaps the HBD could raise 
some money by acting as the Pivonian Registry.

Moving on to my next paragraph, I'd like to mention that I've no idea of my 
Rennarian coordinates.

Dr. Pivo III (there is no scientific evidence that I'm *not* Drew Avis)
Underpitching in Merrickville

- --
Drew Avis, Merrickville, Ontario
Visit Strange Brew with Drew:
http://fast.to/strangebrew



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com



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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 14:00:09 -0500 
From: Alan Monaghan <AlanM at Gardnerweb.com>
Subject: Lovibond Ratings and Recipe

Greetings all. Wonderful reading these last few months. I have a couple of
questions that I am hoping someone out there can help with.

1)	I am slightly color blind and as such I have had to find ways to
work around this. I am a recognized judge and am working hard on my tasting
skills and other judging skills. My problem is that I would like to be able
to judge the color some way but the color strips I see the other judges
using just don't do it for me. Too many of the colors are too close to each
other for me to tell them apart. Is there a device (preferable one that
could fit in a pocket) that I could use that would give the deg. Lovibond of
a sample?
2)	I am trying to formulate a black belt pilsner, smooth, light in
color, soft in mouth with a good smashing kick to it. This is to be served
to others in my school. Does anyone out there have a recipe that is a good
balance of flavor, not too much, and a good kick to it? 

I appreciate all the contributors here. It has helped me to acquire some
very nice toys to play with and to come to appreciate the skill of the
brewer. Many thanks...



       Be like water my friend ...
Alan G. Monaghan
Gardner Publications, Inc.
Internet Administrator 

*  Phone      1-513-527-8867 
*  Fax          1-513-527-8801 
*  Cell          1-513-520-6866 
* E-mail       AlanM at Gardnerweb.com <mailto:AlanM at Gardnerweb.com> 



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Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 16:03:05 -0500
From: "Murray, Eric" <emurray at sud-chemieinc.com>
Subject: RE: Clone: Red Stripe Lager

Jason,
I believe there is a clone recipe for Red Strip in the book "Clone Brews" -
by Szamatulski. I have just recently acquired this book, and I am on my
second recipe from it. My first was a clone of Samuel Smiths Oatmeal stout
(in the keg now) and it turned out great. I have a Dixie Blackened Voodoo
Lager fermenting now. The book has 150 or so commercial beer clone recipes.
All the recipes are in extract, partial mash, and full mash form, so you can
choose. So far it has been a really good book and promises some great beers.
If anything, it makes the difficult choice of what to brew next easy.

Peace,
Eric


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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 15:20:18 -0600 
From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at post.rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: Re:Duvel and Pivo-Meeker XXXIV


> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 00:34:40 -0800
> From: "Duck" <duck48858 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Duvel?
> 
> Anyone have any ideas to help me produce a Duvel Clone? Here's what I know
> about Duvel so far:

And, snip. Cut to me:

Let me preface by saying I haven't attempted a Duvel clone yet. I just
started all-grain a few months ago, and I have been getting my feet wet
(there's probably a real good joke in there for beginning winemaking, but I
digress...) with some simple ales. But the DWC Pilsner malt is on order, and
like you, Duvel is one of my Holy Grails. Your knowledge of the process is
basically the same as mine, with a few details I didn't know about.

Regarding the OG, why not go for the final OG right from the get-go? Why add
sugars at different stages?

Regarding the yeasts. I have been leaning toward a yeast pairing of 1388 and
1728 (Scottish), since the original Duvel yeast was reportedly the McEwan's
strains. I expect the pear character to come from the 1388, but the big
question is getting the batch percentage and ferment temp right to produce
it, and in the right quantity. I suspect the 1388 would see the higher temps
for the esters (could 82F be the magic number?) while the 1728 at temps of
60 (maybe even lower) would provide a balancing clean and well attenuated
maltiness so that the esters are not overpowering. Again, this is all pure
conjecture on my part. I have no idea if this approach would come anywhere
close to the Duvel character, but it's a road I would like to see travelled.
Any chemists out there know what the pear esters are, and what sort of temps
are likely to result in their formation?

Ingredients: Pilsner malt and light candi sugar, maybe a touch of wheat
would be my choice. And the hops you mentioned. Mash at 65C (sorry, I'm a
Canuck, I can't help myself) for good attenuation. 

Anyway, whatever you decide to do, please keep us informed as to your
results.

> 
> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:17:32 -0500
> From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
> Subject: Pivo's sales pitch
> 
> As I said, "pretty close" - a factor of two is pretty close for pitching
> rate.
> 

Double is close? So, if you owed the IRS $100,000 in back taxes, and they
asked for $200,000, you would say, "Sure, that's pretty close"? ;-)

Cheers

Brian


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Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 16:23:09 -0500
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Burners

Dear Brewers,

This is a follow up to an earlier post.

Mike Branam had written regarding a burner with stand he found at 

http://www.cyberbrewing.com/acb/showdet1.cfm?&DID=8&product_ID=195&CATID=35

for use in his three tier system.  He had wanted info. on how to get just
the burner element by perhaps contacting the manufacturer.

I did not find the manufacturer.  However, after a bit of searching, I have
found an alternatives to share and would be interested in discussion as to
their use in brewing (of course).  Opinions on suitability of each for
various brewing methods, systems, batch sizes?  Check 'em out.

Attachment Converted: "C:\PIPEPLUS\DOWNLOAD\bigring.gif"

Attachment Converted: "C:\PIPEPLUS\DOWNLOAD\fishckr.gif"

Attachment Converted: "C:\PIPEPLUS\DOWNLOAD\smalring.gif"

Dear Mr. Foote,

The large ring burner operates on low pressure propane (less than 1 psi), it
can produce over 60,000 btu/h, 10" diameter, weighs approx. 36# (solid cast
iron body), and is shipped from California. The cost of the burner and
control valve is $40.00 US Dollars. A 10ft hose and regulator for this
burner would be an additional $24.00 US Dollars.

The Cup Burner (FISHCKR.GIF) is a cast iron burner. However, it operates on
high pressure propane 5-30 psi. It can produce over 200,000 btu/h.  It is
4-1/4" dia (with a flame dia. OD approx. 8"). It costs about $40.00, but the
hose and adjustable regulator for this burner are about $42.00 US Dollars.

The small ring burner is 6" diameter, low pressure, 30,000 btu/h, $25.00
plus hose & regulator ($24.00).

I hope this helps.  Let me know if you would like to place an order.

Sincerely,

Scott Bockelman
Burners, Inc.

You may view their web site at http://www.burnersinc.com/  Note that they
do not list the burners above on the web site but do sell them per Mr.
Bockelman.


Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing and Remodeling
Murrayville, GA 




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Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 18:05:33 -0600
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Wine from Concentrate

Per my challenge a few months ago, Alan Talman of Karp's Hombrew sent  two
bottles of wine made from concentred grape juice.  One is a red merlot and the
other is an unknown white.

I claimed one could make nothing better than jug wine with concentrate and he
countered by saying he could make $20  wine with it.

Well, the merlot needs to age a year or so but we had the white with flounder
last night and much to my surprise, we really liked the wine.

It was mildly fruity and on the sweet side of dry with just a hint of an
aftertaste.  The interest improved with each taste and by the time the bottle
was empty, I wanted more.

I guess if I had paid $20 and it had a fancy French name, I would not have been
disappointed.  Definately a cut above jug wine and as good as most of the $10
wine we have on Friday with fish.

I have no way of making white wine (requires a press) and only drink one bottle
a week so I am definately interested in trying this myself.  I will let Alan
explain what went into this wine. It is my understanding that it was pretty much
the bottom of the line.

js

PHOTO OF THE WEEK  http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm
HOME: Beer, Cheese, Astronomy, Videos  http://user.mc.net/arfh







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Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 08:16:03 -0800
From: Jeffrey Donovan <jeffrey at promash.com>
Subject: John Richardson, You Will Be Missed

Hello people of the HBD. It is with a heavy heart that I announce the 
following:

On Tuesday March 7'th, 2000, fellow home brewer John Richardson lost his 
battle with cancer and passed on. John had been a ProMash Beta tester since 
day 1, and I will miss him greatly. John never mentioned he was ill, and I 
know that many of you here might have known John and possibly wondered 
about his absence.

 From John's wife - "All of those who truly knew him, loved him. He was an 
extremely intelligent, sweet, caring man whom will be sorely missed by all. 
He was DX with cancer Thanksgiving weekend of 1998 and fighting a long hard 
battle ever since that time with extensive chemo therapy regimens. He died 
very peacefully in his sleep, here at home (where he wanted to be), on 
Tuesday AM, with no pain. That is a miracle in itself as he had been having 
tremendous pain off and on since before he was diagnosed. He is happy in 
heaven now doing the work that God is giving him to do. (He was also an 
ordained Presbyterian minister)." - Bonnie Richardson

Bonnie will continue brewing ..."He taught me a lot about brewing in the 
short time we had with each other and I would very much like to continue 
brewing. He helped my brother and me brew a recipe,  Stock Stout A. We 
brewed it on 02-05-00 and John talked us through it. It is a fine stout!"

For those who knew John and wish to send condolences, you may send email to 
Bonnie at shrink1 at home.com .

John, We will miss and remember you!

 - Jeffrey Donovan




Jeffrey Donovan
The Sausalito Brewing Co.
ProMash and PilotBrew Software
jeffrey at promash.com
http://www.promash.com




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Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 13:41:00 -0400
From: "Wayne or Cathy Love" <lovews at auracom.com>
Subject: Re: Hop cultivation


- ----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne or Cathy Love
To: HomeBrew Digest
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2000 11:10 AM
Subject: Hop cultivation


I'd like to thank all of you who responded to my last post concerning
"aluminum vs steel" boiling kettles. Especial thanks to Thomas Murray who
pointed me to a great supply of new stainless steel 13.5 gal keg boilers for $
54.95. Awesome!

( A new paragraph for those who appear to be keeping track of these things)
I've recently ordered several varieties of hop rhizomes, fuggles and perle,
and was wondering a few things:
  1-  Do these plants usually bear flowers ( hop cones) the first year or is
there a time lag where they must first get established?
  2- Do deer (white tail) enjoy hop plants? ( they sure are a pest with most
of my flower gardens)
  3- Do they grow their full height the first year? (assuming they are
properly nourished and planted properly)
  4- Have you been pleased with the overall results of your hops? ie Have they
been close to the alpha units, flavor  and aroma as you expected? Or are the
commercial grown clearly superior?
  5- Any helpful hints or advice for the first time grower will be gratefully
appreciated.

Since I found this post two months ago, I have greatly enjoyed my first cup of
coffee each morning (to early for homebrew) scanning thru all the various
postings and have picked up a lot good advice and food for thought. I would,
however, and I'm sure  I'm not alone, appreciate if some of you "expurts"
could periodically expound on advice for beginners, maybe giving tips on basic
equipment, or procedures or what steps or changes most improved your brewing
success.

Hoppily brewing
wayne love
new brunswick, canada



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Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 13:49:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: Mash Hopping = Permanent Haze?

Greetings,

After a year of brewing all-grain pale ales, I've
got my first case (actually about two cases) of
permanent haze.  I tried a couple of different
things with this batch and I'm not sure what led
to the hazy result.

Ideas:

1.  Mash hopped with ca. 2 ounces Cascade pellets
2.  Used no Irish Moss
3.  Was more careful than usual to recirculate
the wort before the boil, and to remove the break
matter when transferring to the fermenter.

Everything else was (supposed to be) the same as
many many other batches.  Point 2, no Irish moss
would be an easy one to jump on, but I ran out
and I've read here that some folks don't use it,
with no ill effects.  Seems like point 3 would
lead to even clearer beer.  I was wondering if
the mash hopping could have caused the haze? 
Stuff tastes good.

Matt Comstock in Cincinnati.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com


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Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 17:45:40 -0500
From: "George de Piro" <gdepiro at mindspring.com>
Subject: multi-step mashes / South African yeast and cold break / malicious posts

Hi all,

Dan Senne asks if he should use a rest at 104F (40C) to increase extraction
efficiency.  He is using a malt bill consisting largely of Durst barley
malts.

I would say that a rest at 40C will have a minimal impact on your
efficiency.  If you think that you are really experiencing substandard
efficiencies, there are other factors I would look at first:

1.  Milling too coarsely will greatly reduce your extraction efficiency.
This is probably the most common reason people have extraction problems.

2.  Sparging too fast and/or too cold can reduce your efficiency.  What is
the SG of your final runnings?  If it is high (>1.020), then something is
wrong.

3.  Lauter tun design:  too deep of a grain bed can hurt your efficiency
(but too shallow will not allow clear wort to be drawn off).  Again, measure
the SG of your final runnings.  This isn't usually a problem in most
homebrew systems.

4.  Incorrect weighing of the malt.  I'm not kidding.  When I first started
all-grain brewing the now-defunct shop where I bought my malt would weigh it
out and grind it for me.  I later found out that they shorted me every time
(not on purpose; you just cannot use a bathroom scale for weighing out malt
in 5 pound (2.5 kg) increments.

5.  Mashing too hot.  If your thermometer isn't correct and you are mashing
too hot (>156F; >69C) you will see a marked decrease in your efficiency (and
a marked increase in your final gravity, and possibly a grainy taste in the
beer, too).

A big problem I have with mashing in so cold is that you have no choice but
to pass the mash through the protein rest range to get it to
saccharification.  This is a waste of time and can adversely effect the
protein make-up of the wort, leading to poor head retention and thin body.

I guess that's enough to start with.  On to the next topic:
- ------------------------------
Ant Hayes wants to know why his South African Breweries (SAB) text says that
too much oxygen at pitching is bad for yeast, and also ponders cold break
removal from lager worts.

One of our micro teachers at Siebel was Lynn Krueger, who formerly worked in
the micro department at SAB.  She explained that they used oxygenation
levels to help control the ester and fusel content of their beer, and used
less O2 (while pitching more yeast) because they wanted some estery (and
less fusel) character.  She was very quick to point out that this is NOT a
good way for the small brewer to control the ester content of beer.

 -The yeast treated in this way were not harvested for repitching because
they weren't in good enough shape.

 -You are walking a fine line between an acceptable ferment and a stuck (or
otherwise flawed) ferment when depriving yeast of O2.  Without fancy
equipment like dissolved oxygen meters and a tremendous wealth of knowledge
about your yeast strain, you are unlikely to get consistent results.

 -You need to be able to accurately pitch the yeast into the wort.  That
means knowing the cell count to a high degree of confidence.  At home you
have a better chance of doing this than at a very small brewery like mine,
because I cannot ever be sure of how well my yeast is mixed into the wort.

She advocated using yeast strain selection and more easily controlled
parameters like fermentation temperature as methods for controlling ester
production.  I would tend to agree with her.

As for cold break removal from worts (especially lager worts):  some
breweries do this, some don't.  Removing cold break will supposedly reduce
esters and perhaps hinder yeast growth (meaning less fusel production).  At
home I did this a few times and found that the result was not worth the
effort and risk of contamination.
- -------------------------
To those who say that they enjoy reading posts by "Pivo" and the ilk:

I, too, enjoy reading vituperative attacks on people that are taking the
time to offer advice to other homebrewers.  Why should anyone feel slighted
because they are wantonly insulted by people they haven't even met?  I am
especially amused when the abusive posts are not signed with a real name.
People today are just too damn sensitive.  How can anyone offend the
feelings of people they don't know and can't see?  Heck, they probably don't
even exist, right?  It's just a computer.

Yes, that was sarcasm.

Have fun!

George de Piro

C.H. Evans Brewing Company
at the Albany Pump Station
(518)447-9000
http://evansale.com (under construction)

Malted Barley Appreciation Society
Homebrew Club
http://hbd.org/mbas



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Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 17:53:53 -0600
From: "Val J. Lipscomb" <valjay at netXpress.com>
Subject: Angry Beer Gods

	
	Greetings All,

	Our esteemed janitor,Mr. Babcock, wrote in HBD #3269:
>Been a pretty sporadic week! Server crashed Sunday at reboot, back up 
>Monday. Kaboom! Back down again Thursday and finally back up. Yow!

>Our apologies for any inconvenience/withdrawal symptoms/depression/coma 
>experienced by anyone. No hardware failures this time - one network oops 
>followed by a janitor oops -

	Perhaps it didn't happen as above,but,rather,because the Beer Gods are
angry because of the tone of recent HBD postings. Some of us have apparently
forgotten that this is a hobby and is supposed to be FUN. How 'bout let's
leave off the back biting, sarcasm and "yow-yowing"(see HBD #2355).Let's 
get back to the nuts and bolts of homebrewing.

	HBD #3269 is a pretty good example of what HBD should be, good dialog,
advice and information for those who would learn to brew or enhance their
brewing knowledge. Pat B's final post says it all, "Hope that helps" is
properly the HBD spirit.

Val Lipscomb-brewing in San Antonio
Way Southwest of Rennerland 


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Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 20:31:44 EST
From: BIL2112L at aol.com
Subject: Duvel,High S.G.,&Orval

Hello fellow brewers! I am somewhat a newbie but, will add my 2 cents on a 
few things. First in regard to the duvel question, I believe that S.Goldings 
are used as a bittering hop while all of the finishing hops are Saaz. 
Secondly, I think I've heard somewhere that Wyeast's Belgian strong ale yeast 
in actually the Duvel yeast so, bottle culturing may not be necessary. 
Regarding the high finishing gravity question I can tell from my own 
experience that the best way to insure full attenuation is to pitch a lot of 
yeast and to give that yeast plenty of oxygen (I use an oxygen can and a 
weighted airstone ). Finally, I love Orval. I have brewed it according to the 
"clone brews" book (I used wyeast's trappist strain instead of bottle 
culturing). Does anyone have any tips to recreating this incredible beer? 
Thanx!
                                        -Bill 


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Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 18:17:59 -0800
From: The Holders <zymie at sprynet.com>
Subject: RHEMS bypass

Dan asks about a bypass on his heat exchange coil.

You can build a simple one sing two ball valves.

First, imagine that each port of the coil has a "T" attached. These T's
will be connected together with a ball valve in the middle. This valve
will be the  "Bypass" valve. 

Then imagine another ball valve in between the "T" and the supply port.
This valve will be the "Feed" valve. 

What you are left with will be an open end of each "T". One of them is
the supply, and the other is the return. 

If you open the Feed valve and close the Bypass valve, the liquid flows
through the coil. If you open then Bypass valve and close the Feed
valve, the wort flows around the coil.

Very simple to build.

I have pictures of my bypass piping at http://www.zymico.com/rims.shtml
 . Although I use solenoid and not ball valves, the principle is the
same.

Have Fun!

Wayne Holder AKA Zymie
Long Beach CA
http://www.zymico.com


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---