---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: Glass Carboys (KMacneal)
  Sheep Lovers And Starter Hopping ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  RE: Clean Glasses (RobertJ)
  Subject: re: Iron and Aluminum pots ("Jimmy Hughes")
  mash out  - 'years later' ("Micah Millspaw")
  Sex And The Single Pivo ("Alan Meeker")
  yeast attenuartion ("Alan Meeker")
  Vacuum sealer bag & hops ("Sieben, Richard")
  Apologize for off topic signature file ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Thermal Musings from The Northern Snow(less) Lands ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Phase cooling (Dave Burley)
  mash hopping (Marc Sedam)
  BrewAmerica replacement ("Alan Meeker")
  Oatmeal Stout ("Sieben, Richard")
  Vacuum sealing hops (Brian Lundeen)
  clean glasses & stainless fermenters ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  bouncing carboys ("Jeffry D Luck")
  RE: bouncing carboys/Fermenting in cornys (LaBorde, Ronald)
  HSA rides again. ("Dr. Pivo")
  Re: high gravity and ethanol tollerance (Scott Murman)
  Sierra Nevada Porter Clone (MObucho829)
  clean glasses (FredScheer)
  Off-Topic: Vinegar ("John S Thompson")
  Amahl Turczyn/Chris White ("St. Patrick's")
  Cleaning Brass ("St. Patrick's")
  Belgian Wit ("St. Patrick's")


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

* Entries for the 18th Annual HOPS competition are due 3/24-4/2/00 
* See http://www.netaxs.com/~shady/hops/ for more information

* 18th Annual Oregon Homebrew Festival - entry deadline May 15th
* More info at:  http://www.hotv.org/fest2000

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 06:56:48 EDT
From: KMacneal at aol.com
Subject: Re: Glass Carboys

In a message dated 4/3/2000 12:17:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Aaron Perry 
writes:

<< Any way, I still have to brew, just not in glass....dont even want to mess
 with it any more >>

Aaron,

I don't think you have to do anything as drastic as giving up glass carboys 
entirely.  There are other options, such as carboy handles that clamp on to 
the neck, or carboy covers that have handles.  Check your local homebrew shop.

Keith MacNeal
Worcester, MA


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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 21:25:39 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Sheep Lovers And Starter Hopping

Bit of a mixed bag here. I notice the Baron of The Southern Highlands has
noted my absence of late. Since the Sheep Lovers have taken over the company
I work for they have been flogging me to death! No wonder over there the
sheep are very nervous.

But I have a moment to make a few comments. Dr Pivo 49 is curious as to the
measure of perversity of the man behind Fred Garvin. Dr Pivo 49, the man
about whom you enquire is highly perverse, be in no doubt about this!

I have been wondering of late about the general silence of Steve Alexander.
Insults will not upset him. Incorrect posts about his intentions will not
sway him. Even names will not hurt him. We've all tried but he just won't
budge. It is a new tactic employed by some on the HBD known as "the silent
treatment". But now I see what Steve is really up to, he's waited all this
time to restart his favourite subject, HSA.
Will someone please write a post describing how HSA totally destroyed your
last brew. Steve just isn't going to sleep until someone finally exposes the
HSA boogie man.
I'd write it myself but Steve won't take me seriously, besides he is not
talking to me.

But moving along again. The latest creation in hopping ideas has moved
further back in the brewing process. It is now realised that flavour and
aroma hop additions can all be done way back in the yeast starter. The magic
of the hops is captured and transferred straight to the fermenter, bypassing
the boil in either FWH or late addition form all together. It has a second
advantage in that the yeast are given a preview of what to expect when they
are let loose in the fermenter. A bit like a briefing before a sortie. "This
is what you will be up against boys, this is what they will look like, now
hop on into that wort and beat the crap out of them"

I am being particularly stupid tonight. But the process really does work
very effectively. It has met with much approval in the billiard room so what
else can I say?

Cheers
Phil
These New Zealanders Are Killing Me



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Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 08:05:38 -0400
From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com>
Subject: RE: Clean Glasses 

"Jimmy Hughes" <inspector at bmd.clis.com> wrote
 
I am having a problem getting my beer glasses clean, i.e. removing the soap
film.

Any tips would be appreciated.

I rinse after use then soak in B-brite for ten minutes. This cuts all
grease etc.

To test for a "beer clean glass" when rinsed the water will sheet off. If
you see bubbles, it's still dirty




Bob
Precision Brewing Systems URL http://pbsbeer.com Manufacturer of 3 Vessel
Brew Systems, HERMS(tm), SS Brew Kettles, SS hopback and the MAXIchiller


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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:05:05 -0400
From: "Jimmy Hughes" <inspector at bmd.clis.com>
Subject: Subject: re: Iron and Aluminum pots

Check out


http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?PAGE=PROFRAME&PROD_ID=334&DPT_ID=24&
cid=0&fp=T

4 stainless steel pots, with lids, 8, 12, 16 and 20 quart sizes, all for
only $46.70



Happy trails to you, 'til we meet again..............
Check out the free items, go to,
http://www.ncinspections.com
scroll down, click on the free after rebate link........
Save money, enjoy........




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Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 07:11:36 -0500
From: "Micah Millspaw" <MMillspa at silganmfg.com>
Subject: mash out  - 'years later'

>Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 21:22:03 -0500
>From: Crossno <crossno at tnns.net>
>Subject: Mash Out

>written by Bob Jones and Micah Millspaw - Zymurgy (either in '91 or
>'92):

> Permanent haze is the end product of chill haze. If you get chill haze
>permanent haze will follow in time.

>>under letting
>>By infusing in this manner, stirring of the grains to insure uniform mixing
>>of the grain and hot water is not necessary. By not stirring the water into
>>the mash, hot oxygen reactions can be reduced.

>>I feel that the particulates (husks and grits mostly) provide a place for
>>proteins to clump onto during the boil and then settle out more effectively
>>in cooling.

>Micah thanks for sharing.  Do you still believe the above?  Do you have
>any thoughts to add now these many years later?

Of course I have thoughts: 

Further experience (commercial) has shown the presence of haze to be 
a good predictor of potential problems.

I still prefer underletting the mash, but am more inclined to stir in the mash 
to avoid dry spots and dough balls which seem to occur from time to time.

I still feel very strongly that mash particulates in the boil are a good thing.
I passed that onto the folks at Coors pilot brewery some years back and 
they were quite suprised by the resultant wort (knockout) clarity.

Micah Millspaw - brewer at large



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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:33:00 -0400
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Sex And The Single Pivo

I can't believe I'm saying this but I agree with Pivo on this one.
'Sperments need to be conducted and I'm game.

Louis Bonham is supposedly conducting similar comparisons but the goal is
only to assess IBU and apparently not final flavor profiles. In the
experiments proposed any differences in hop utilization will have to be
carefully controlled as they may affect the perceived flavors in the final
beer.


 -Alan Meeker
 Baltimore, MD
- ----------------------
>I suppose this will become the pemmican to be tugged over theoretically
>as long as people wish to.

>For me this will require doing some "stove top" boils, something I'm
>loathe to do, but I suppose as summer approaches, I'll grab the
>inspiration from "somewhere".

>Anyone else game?

>Dr. Pivo
- -------------------------



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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:44:53 -0400
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: yeast attenuartion

Doug Moyer asks a good question concerning yeast attenuation. I don't know
exactly where these numbers came from nor how they were arrived at but one
can come up with reasonable possibilities as to how different yeast strains
would attenuate more or less of the wort sugars. One possibility (and this
is only one) is that less attenuative strains cannot metabolize as broad a
spectrum of sugars as higher attenuating strains. There are many different
sugars present in wort and some of these yeasts may be deficient in one or
more of the pathways of sugar utilization. For example, sucrose must first
be split by one of the yeast "invertase" enzymes before it can be
metabolized. If a strain has defective invertase activity it's ability to
use sucrose will be impaired.

Such an inability to utilize a specific sugar would easily explain why the
yeast has no problem later carbonating in the bottle because most people
prime with glucose which the yeast will have no problem eating.

It would be interesting to set up a panel of test fermentations on a number
of different yeasts and feeding them only glucose. My hunch is that they
would all hit pretty much the same level of attenuation in this setting.

 -Alan Meeker
  Baltimore, MD





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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:19:29 -0500 
From: "Sieben, Richard" <SIER1 at Aerial1.com>
Subject: Vacuum sealer bag & hops

For those of you who are interested, the vacuum sealer I use is made by
Tilia.  I purchased the Food Saver II on sale for $120 from Kohls (no
affiliation with either etc. etc. etc.)  So watch for a sale! Regular price
is in the $150 to $170 range.  

I also found the Tilia web site, http://www.custsvc.com/tilia.html but I
notice the prices are higher than Service merchandise.  I get 2 rolls of 11"
bag material for $20 at Service, Tilia wants $26 direct.  Tilia also does
have some additional products you may be interested in.  

As an added bonus, you can get some spousal unit buy in to this as it is
really meant for FOOD,  I have found that meat stored in a vacum bag does
not freezer burn, whereas the same meat in a ziplock bag always freezer
burns fairly quickly.  The bags can be washed and re-used, so cut them
bigger than you really need because each time you seal it, you loose 1 inch
of bag length, at least.  I tried to look on the Kohl's site  as well, but
they do not have an online store, maybe you can call them.  I don't know
where you live, but I got mine in Chicago.

As to Doug Brown's question on whether or not vacuum sealing crushes the
hops so much that the lupulin glands in the hops burst, I say don't worry,
it's only atmospheric pressure crushing them.  This is a lot less than if
you were to stand on them or use a hydralic press.

Oh and another thing, the hop shoots are my favorite spring side dish!  A
handfull of hop shoots (about 5 to 6 inches long) fried in butter with some
garlic and onion salt to taste.  Fry them until they are tender and enjoy.
They do have a slight spicy tang to them, yummy!

Rich Sieben
Island Lake, IL


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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:07:54 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Apologize for off topic signature file 

To all,

I must apologize for inadvertently adding a signature file referring to
income tax information to my last HBD post.

I did not intend for the file to be attached to posts to the HBD.  I
composed the file a few weeks ago with the intention of selectively adding
it emails I sent.  Somewhere along the line, my mail program decided to
make it the default signature file and attach it automatically.  Don't you
just love Microsoft software? 

Again, I am sorry, it shouldn't happen again.  (Unless it attaches itself
to this email; then I have a real zombie to kill.)

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY



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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 08:55:30 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Thermal Musings from The Northern Snow(less) Lands

On Mon, 03 Apr 2000,  Wes Smith <wessmith at ozemail.com.au> asked:

>Observed over a period of many mashes, I have repeatedly noticed a 
>temperature DROP when first applying heat in a step mash situation.

I don't have an answer to your question but I do have what may be a useful
piece of information that may lead to finding an answer.

I usually place three or four temperature probes in the mash tun at various
locations.  I have noticed that, if the mash is not stirred, a temperature
gradient of 4 to 6 degree C will form.  The lower temperatures are at the
bottom and the higher at the top.  

Now for the idle speculation (from somone with negligable thermodymamcs
background).  It may be that, as you apply heat at the bottom, the hotter
bottom liquid tries to rise and pushes up some cooler liquid above it.  As
this cooler liquid reaches your temperature probe, you see the temperature
drop.  How is that for a wag?


YMMV.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY



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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:15:30 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Phase cooling

Brewsters:

Wes Smith has observed that  when heating his batch between various rests
he has actually seen the temperature drop and has non-imbibing witnesses to
prove it. He wonders if he has some kind of phase change going on and is he
getting cooling as a result.

I suspect, Wes, that you are either on the other side of the entropic and
enhalpic mirrors as well as the equator or what you are seeing is the fact
that when you heat you are also stirring. Likely, you are stirring cooler
spots of the thick mash from near the bottom or walls of the mash kettle to
your thermometer which then indicates a temperature drop.

Try this experiment. Stir <before> you heat and see if you don't get a
temperature drop and then heat with stirring and watch the temperature.

It is a very good idea to have an insulated box made of 1" ( 2.54 cm) 
polystyrene foam to keep your mash temperature constant or wrap your mash
kettle, including he lid, in a blanket of insulation between heatings.   I
have my poly box taped together, so I can disassemble it between brew
sessions and it doesn't take much storage room.

During a phase change in which energy is absorbed to change phases ( like
melting) , no temperature change is recorded ( that's both up and down).

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley.   


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Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 10:21:28 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: mash hopping

Saturday morning I kegged 5 gallons of what I called (after
tasting) a "Belgian-style golden ale" fermented with
Samichlaus yeast.  I admit it.  The whole purpose of the
beer was to serve as a step-up brew for a Samichlaus clone.
It was the first beer where I used mash hopping, adding 1.5
oz of Hallertauer to the mash.  The first glass, as usual,
was a bit hard to figure.  After the keg settled down, the
beer had wonderful flowery overtones and a mouthfeel I can
only describe as "fluffy"--soft, delicate, smooth.  A true
pleasure to drink.  I found the hop flavor of the beer to be
very nice.  Bitterness levels were spot-on (added 0.8oz of
Bullion to the boil) and no other hopping was used.

I kegged it in hopes of a wild celebration for the Tar Heels
victory in the Final Four; instead it went to drown the
sorrows of the future that could have been.  Damn Cota and
his fourth foul...

To make myself feel better, I brewed a brown ale MH'd with
1.6 ounces of Fuggles, with another ounce of Fuggles added
to the boil.  The wort tasted delicious--always a good
sign.  I'll update as necessary/ requested.

Cheerios,
Marc
"The Alechemist Homebrewery"



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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:23:52 -0400
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: BrewAmerica replacement

Someone asked about alternates to BrewAmerica in Vienna, Va which just went
out of business.  I don't know what's down there in Va but if you are
further North then Maryland Home Brew in Columbia might be an option for you
(it's probably something on the order of 30-40 minutes from BrewAmerica).
They have a large inventory. You can also find them on the web.

I don't have any financial ties to them but I sure don't want to see MHB go
the route of BA!

 -Alan Meeker



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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:07:53 -0500 
From: "Sieben, Richard" <SIER1 at Aerial1.com>
Subject: Oatmeal Stout

John Penn asked about his recipe:
1# of oatmeal
2# english pale malt
1/2# roasted barley
LME as needed.....

I have used quaker quick oats and reglar oatmeal in a similar partial mash
recipe. (was very good tasting as well, if I do say so myself)   I would
however substitute american 2-row for the english pale malt as it has more
enzymatic power to convert the oatmeal starches ( I had only used 1# of
2-row and the partial mash was very thick and difficult to sparge.).  Also I
used 1/2# of chocolate malt in addition to the roasted barley, you can cut
down on the 2-row to compensate if you need to.

hope this helps.

Rich Sieben
Island Lake, IL


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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 10:15:30 -0500 
From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at post.rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: Vacuum sealing hops


> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2000 07:10:02 -0500
> From: "J. Doug Brown" <jbrown at mteer.com>
> Subject: Vacuum sealer bag & hops?
> 
> Hello,
>   Just wanted to say thanks for the many suggestions of using a vacuum
> sealer and bags for storing hops.  Just one more question on this
> thread.  I had read that when storing hops to not crush them.  Does
> vacuum packing hops in vacuum bags crush the hops significantly enough
> to cause a problem, ie lupulin glands bursting, and is this really a
> concern?

I can't speak for their effect on fresh hops but I can tell you that my
Tilia vacuum sealer has enormous crushing power. The manufacturer says not
to use it on things like crackers and chips unless you have one of the
higher end models with manual vacuum shutoff. I expect hops, even if you
pre-freeze them, would be well crushed by the sealer. Why this is a problem,
I don't know, since commercial plugs and pellets are crushed.

Brian


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Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 11:30:29 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: clean glasses & stainless fermenters

On Sat, 1 Apr 2000 Jimmy Hughes had the following to say about Clean
Glasses:

>I am having a problem getting my beer glasses clean, i.e. removing the soap
film.

So don't use soap.  Yeah, yeah, I'm a wise-ass, but I'm serious.  Despite
the fact that we have a dishwasher, my wife insists on hand washing most of
our dishes.  I tolerate this behaviour as there is no talking her out of it,
it makes her happy and it keeps her busy.  But I don't let her hand wash my
beer glasses or mugs.  Beerware gets hand washed by me in a seperate tub of
washing soda and then rinsed with a lot of hot water.  After going to all
that trouble to make a great beer and then screw up the presentation by
having the head choke on soap film or rinse aid, it would just be a shame.
I love my beer.

======

On Sun, 02 Apr 2000 Aaron Perry asked about Fermenting in cornys:

> So can anyone set me up with some ideas about modifying soda
>kegs for use as fermentors. I'm thinking about airlock designs, possible
>leakage from lids(probabbly not a problem with the airlock a "path of least
>resistance"). 

I too have moved from glass to stainless for safety reasons.  Carboy handles
and milk crates work well to give you a good "handle" on your beer, but
since I've moved from an upright fridge to a chest freezer, lifting a heavy
glass carboy out by the neck plain old sucks.  Stainless fermenters raise
the lifting points higher and make lifting the contaption out of the freezer
much easier/safer.  I can lift with my legs now vs. with my back.

I've seen a number of people remove the "gas in" keg post assembly and place
a fermentation lock directly on the post using a piece of hose as an
adapter.  It works, but I prefer to remove the pressure relief valve and
replace it with a small rubber stopper and fermentation lock (works with
older Firestone keg lids).  A new pressure relief valve is easier to replace
if you mess it up vs. fixing a cross-threaded keg post.  Alternately, you
could always keep your keg post assembly and pressure relief valve in place
and attach a fermentation lock to a quick disconnect with a little bit of
tubing.  I agree about leaks not being much of a problem with the lid.  

It has been suggested by many to do primary fermentation with a 20%
headspace.  This would leave you with 4 gallons of beer in a 5 gallon keg or
8 gallons in a 10 gallon keg.  I didn't argue with this when I switched.  I
just started making 8 gallon batches - MORE BEER!  I wind up filling one 5
gallon corny, 2 mini kegs and a few bottles.  It's nice to have different
put-ups for different occasions.  Also,  don't forget to cut the bottom 1/2"
to 3/4" from your dip tube as you would with a dispensing keg.  In most
cases there will be a much larger yeast cake in a primary than in a
secondary or a naturally conditioned keg.  You'll have to fiddle with this
one to get the length right but I also turned my tube towards the side wall
(opening is tangental to the wall).

Another advantage to the safety of stainless fermenters is that beer can be
moved to a stainless secondary or dispensing keg by using the existing dip
tube setup.  Either transfer entirely via low pressure in a closed system or
just use pressure to start the flow and allow gravity to do the rest by
opening the other relief valve and cutting the pressure on the elevated
tank.  The disadvantages are cost and inability to view the fermentation in
a closed state.

Just my 2 cents...

Glen Pannicke
glen at pannicke.net


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Date: 03 Apr 2000 09:18:37 -0700
From: "Jeffry D Luck" <Jeffry.D.Luck at aexp.com>
Subject: bouncing carboys

Aaron Perry posted about bouncing a carboy and ending 
up with glass and mead all over his brew area.

A couple years ago, I scrounged one of those plastic 5gal 
'carboys' from the guys who deliver spring water to the office.
I've used it as a backup when my glass carboy is in use, and
so far have not noticed any off flavors in either beer or wine.

I assume that they are of a totally inert material and will not
impart off flavors, or my taste buds are too condescending
toward my own creations and I haven't noticed, or (I can hear
it now...),  "you've been lucky so far and just you wait".

Does anyone have any theory, or better yet, data to shed light
on whether plastic carboys are a good option?  Part of me 
feels I've done something immoral by trying it out in the first 
place, but it's done well so far.

Jeff Luck
Salt Lake City, UT   USA

There was a young man from LaDoux
Whose limericks stopped at line two.



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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 11:37:46 -0500 
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: bouncing carboys/Fermenting in cornys

>From: Aaron Perry <vspbcb at earthlink.net>

>So can anyone set me up with some ideas about modifying soda
>kegs for use as fermentors. I'm thinking about airlock designs, possible
>leakage from lids(probabbly not a problem with the airlock a "path of least
>resistance").

I have been using a soda keg as fermenter a few times and it works very
well.  I unscrewed and removed the two quick connect fittings and both
tubings.  When fermenting, I place a small square of aluminum foil onto one
fitting and place the small o ring from the fitting over the foil, this
makes an airtight seal.  Over the other fitting, I place a piece of vinyl
tubing and secure it with a tie wrap.  The other end of this tubing goes
into a bucket with sanitizer in it to become an air lock.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu
http://hbd.org/rlaborde



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Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 21:40:01 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: HSA rides again.

'Tis a nasty ol' thing, ain't it?

Steve Alexander writes:

> Some of you may recall that I questioned the oracles of Seibel last year
> about HSA on a small HB scale and they said it was ignorable,

I believe what these professional brewers replied was something to the
effect of: "I wouldn't lose any sleep over it".

But Steve has.... and apparently wishes others to (ah well... what else
to do when staying up late reorganizing the "Dewey Decimal")

I might briefly reiterate a little spearmint I did on this (which
mightily created fountains of spume when reported here):

I brewed a lager, and added about 10% crystal malt (certainly not for
taste reasons, but for "melanoidins", of which crystal malt has plenty,
are supposed to be an integral part of the HSA thing, so I thought I
ought to have plenty).

At the end of the boil, I let a portion go flying through the air, to
splash merrily in the fermenter, foaming up greatly! 'Twas a sight to
fire the heart of the most sadisitic brewer (or.... another
interpretation would be: "pretty much the way it looks at a lot of
traditional breweries"). Another portion I treated as gently as the
powdering of a babies back-side.

After primary, I gave them 6 weeks in the second, and then artificially
carbonated a keg of each.

I ran this through a "triangle test".  Normally I punish the local
brewers with having to serve as tasters, but since this was summer, and
there was a flow of folks through my house, I decided to use an
"International Gang" (lot's of different taste backgrounds).

I had a German, a Czech, a Dane, an Australian, a United Statesian, an
Irishman, and a few Swedes. (this is not the introduction of a poor joke
riddled with slurs, as you might expect from me).

HSA was a "no-show".  ONE person correctly identified it (Heja
Danmark!), and admitted he was taking a guess just because he had to
pick something.

What would I say about that?

A difference may well have turned up sooner or later.... but is that
when I want to drink my beer? When the hop volatiles are already fading?

I'd make a couple of statements about this:

The beer I like best is "fresh".

As a "home brewer" I can ensure that I have that.

A good commercial target today is 18 months of shelf life, and that
creates a whole host of other problems, a whole rack of literature to
deal with them, and long lists of things that should be avoided having
in beer.... one of them is "HSA".... another of them is "flavour".

I by no means think I have the "answer" on this issue with my crappy
little 'spurments, but I would hope to inspire others to find out on
their own.

The time you spend on doing one of these things, could well be payed
back many times over, by not wasting your time on things that make
absolutely no difference to your beer "when you like it best".

Dr. Pivo LXXXVI

PS as to the effects of pumping?  I have no idea in the wort. 
"Agitation" has tremendous detrimental effects on the finished beer, and
is one of the reasons it travels so poorly.... don't know if it works
that far back, but it ain't the first thing I'd start worrying about.


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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 14:05:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: high gravity and ethanol tollerance


> There was a very good research paper on this topic that was commented on at
> length on the HBD by Rob Moline, Steve Alexander and myself (probably others
> too) either in '99 or '98. If you do a search of the archives on "high
> gravity" you'll probably run into it pretty quickly.

check out http://www.best.com/~smurman/zymurgy/archives.html
i've archived the high grav posts, along with several other very good
(IMO) contributions over the past few years.

 -SM-



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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 18:09:11 EDT
From: MObucho829 at aol.com
Subject: Sierra Nevada Porter Clone

Does anyone know of a clone recipe for Sierra Nevada's Porter.  This is my 
newest coolest discovery and I would love to be able to put this in the 
permanent brewing rotation.
Thanks for any help.\

Matthew Obuchowski
MObucho829 at AOL.com


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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 21:12:18 EDT
From: FredScheer at aol.com
Subject: clean glasses

Jimmy Hughes wrote:
Subject: Clean Glasses
I am having a problem getting my beer glasses clean, i.e., removing the soap
film.
Any tips would be appreciated.

I recommend to contact Mr. Paul Ackermann, who is specialized in that field.
His email address is:  packermann at ameritech.net


Fred M. Scheer
BOSCOS  Nashville, TN
http://hometownaol.com/fredscheer/indexhtml.html


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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:27:16 -0500
From: "John S Thompson" <jthomp6 at lsu.edu>
Subject: Off-Topic: Vinegar


Does anyone know how to make vinegar from old (red or white) wine? The way I
understand it, you basically let good wine get infected, right? I'm assuming
it's a secondary bacterial fermentation that produces the vinegar. (I've had
badly-infected beer that tasted like vinegar.) My question is whether any
old bacteria will do. Or are there specific bacteria that will produce nice
vinegar and perhaps others that produce something dreadful?

I'm going to take a glass of red wine and let it sit on top of my microwave
for a week or two. Once it has soured, I'm going to introduce it back into
the bottle (with the rest of the wine). Do you think this will work?

Thanks.
John

P.S. Do you people really make beer?  : )



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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:13:36 -0500
From: "St. Patrick's" <stpats at realtime.net>
Subject: Amahl Turczyn/Chris White

Chris White writes
>I spoke with the author, Amahl Turczyn (# upon request), on Friday and he
>adamantly
>stated he got the data for Wyeast directly from them.  The data did agree
>with what we have seen, which I think we submitted that at the time of the
>article.

I am genuinely pleased to see Amahl Turczyn, the author of the article,
speak through Chris White of White Labs and sole source of cell count data
for the article.

I have known since 1998 of Amahl Turczyn's claim of having "got the data
from Wyeast directly".  I  requested that Amahl provide this data
(through both the editor of Zymurgy Michael Bane and AHA director Paul
Gatza) shortly after the article appeared in 1998.

CHRIS, PLEASE HAVE AMAHL TURCZYN PRESENT THIS DATA TO ME OR THE DIGEST.
HERE'S MY FAX NUMBER 512-989-8982.  ANY OL' COPY WILL DO.
SHOULD I HOLD MY BREATH?

Someone asked privately why I didn't  have more White Labs tested.

My tests were done without knowledge of White Labs or Wyeast.  This is
essential to insure against spiked samples.
The Zymurgy article appeared shortly after my tests were underway.  I
contacted both Michael Bane and Paul Gatza shortly after the article
appeared.  I informed them of my independent results to date.  I
emphasized that neither Wyeast nor White Labs knew of the tests and
insisted that they not inform either so that I could obtain more yeasts
for testing.   Paul Gatza and I discussed the possibility of a follow-up
article with the independent test results.  Both assured me that our
conversations would remain private.

THE FOLLOWING DAY I RECEIVED A CALL  FROM CHRIS WHITE.  HIS FIRST WORDS
WERE "I UNDERSTAND YOU'RE DOING TESTS".

Chris, would you please tell me who told you about my ongoing tests?

The facts I stated in HBD #3285 regarding the Zymurgy article are
accurate and precise.  There is not one word of speculation.

 Lynne  O'Connor
St. Patrick's of Texas
Brewers Supply
1828 Fleischer Drive
Austin, Texas 78728 USA
512-989-9727
www.stpats.com







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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:22:28 -0500
From: "St. Patrick's" <stpats at realtime.net>
Subject: Cleaning Brass

	Thanks to John Palmer for the info about cleaning brass.  However,
I understood that lead is added for machining.  Aren't brass valves cast,
not machined.  Is it the same brass with same lead content??

Lynne O'Connor
St. Patrick's of Texas
Brewers Supply
1828 Fleischer Drive
Austin, Texas 78728 USA
512-989-9727
www.stpats.com







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Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:38:21 -0500
From: "St. Patrick's" <stpats at realtime.net>
Subject: Belgian Wit

	The spices in Celis White and the original Hoegaarden are neither
Curacao orange peel nor the coriander available to homebrewers.  Pierre
Celis pointed this out to me a year ago.  Pierre was in the shop a month
ago, reminded me again that I was selling the wrong stuff, and arranged for
me to order the coriander and orange peel used in Celis White.  Expected
next week.  Coriander is graded on oil content.  This is the highest grade
coriander.  I will not reveal the type of coriander nor orange peel.

With regards to a Wit recipe, between us girls, you might omit bittering hops.

Lynne O'Connor

St. Patrick's of Texas
Brewers Supply
1828 Fleischer Drive
Austin, Texas 78728 USA
512-989-9727
www.stpats.com







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