---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: More Thermal Musings ( & other activities) from The Southern (David Lamotte)
  for those who use the Pig ("Darrell Leavitt")
  Electrical Question (Bill_Rehm)
  SS Passivation ("Sandy Macmillan")
  bulk hops and outmeal stout ("Penn, John")
  Vacuum sealing hops , Fermenting in cornys . (Charles Walker)
  brewing integrity ("Eric Cartman")
  May this thread be cast aside (The Holders)
  Fermentor-to-Keg Flavor/Aroma Experiment ("Troy Hager")
  cleaning scorched stainless steel ("Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies")
  storing hops ("Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies")
  Secondary under pressure ("Matt Hollingsworth")
  HSA ( aka hot wort oxidation) (Dave Burley)
  re: bouncing carboys/Fermenting in cornys (Dick Dunn)
  Unit conversion ("Francois Zinserling")
  Re:  bouncing carboys (stencil)
  RE: Belgian Wit ("NATHAN T Moore")
  Belgian Ale ("Houseman, David L")
  Fred's Tip Corner (fred_garvin)
  tequiza clone ("Joe O'Meara")
  SS pots ("Jimmy Hughes")
  Eight Annual Dominion Cup ("Timmons, Frank")
  clean glasses ("Jimmy Hughes")
  Re: Off-Topic: Vinegar (David Lamotte)
  Kegging 15.5 gallons ("Bruce M. Mills")
  LA / NA beer?!? (Brett Spivy)
  Re: Cleaning Brass (David Lamotte)
  Lab stuff ("Louis K. Bonham")


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

* Entries for the 18th Annual HOPS competition are due 3/24-4/2/00 
* See http://www.netaxs.com/~shady/hops/ for more information

* 18th Annual Oregon Homebrew Festival - entry deadline May 15th
* More info at:  http://www.hotv.org/fest2000

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 15:07:33 +1000
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: More Thermal Musings ( & other activities) from The Southern 

Brethren ....

Wes Smith (The Moss Vale Maltster) writes of an unbalanced energy
equation whereby the application of heat to a stainless mash tun results
in an initial temperature drop.

While I have not bothered with such direct fired step mashes myself, and
hence have never had an opportunity to observed any temperature changes,
I have noticed what I believe to be a related phenomena.  

Whenever I fire up my (propane) boiler, I notice a large amount of water
condensing from the combustion products on the (relatively) cold boiler
surface.  The amount is significant and leads to quite a large puddle
forming.  

Now while the process of condensation would be giving up heat, perhaps
(just perhaps), the quantity of water formed leads to sufficient cooling
of the vessel surface to account for the observed temperature changes.

Now onto other matters.  There have been reports emanating from the
Southern Highlands of Rice Lager parties featuring a billiard table as
the prime source of visual entertainment.  Motivated by such tales, I
went out last week and purchased such a billiard table and stocked the
fridge with commercial lager but no such parties have spontaneously
appeared.  

Am I missing something ?  I can not find any mention of such things in
any of my brewing textbooks.  

Are such parties only associated with home brewed lager, and hence
unknown to professional brewers ?

If it only works with home brewed lager, does anyone have a good recipe
that they would like to share ?

Hope you can help... Thanks ....

David Lamotte
Tounge-in-Cheek Brewery
Newcastle, N.S.W. Australia


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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 08:17:07 -0400
From: "Darrell Leavitt" <Darrell_Leavitt at esc.edu>
Subject: for those who use the Pig

For those of you who use a party pig: I just discovered the pig racking
cane, and find that it works very well.  The cane goes through a rubber
stopper which also has a tube attached so that you can hook up the
activation pump to start the siphon.  Bottom line is that it works very
well...the hose is large and the flow is fast, ... and if you loose prime,
you just have to pump a few times and you're back in business.

  I have no connection with the maker (Quion)...but am just am a satisfied
customer




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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 07:37:18 -0500
From: Bill_Rehm at eFunds.Com
Subject: Electrical Question

I'm building a HERMS heating unit using a 120 volt/2000 watt water heater
element. Problem is the wiring and power switch,
I have found a thermostatic control unit (Johnson Controls) but I want to
add a "main" power switch. I've looked in Grainger
and I found several toggle switches rated up to 16 amps, and I have a 10
amp service (breaker has a little 10 on the face). If
I go ahead am I asking for trouble with the circuit breaker and power cords
that I use. Any advice/information would be great,
I spent several hours tonight searching the web for info but didn't find
much to help.


thanks,
Bill Rehm



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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 15:34:22 +0300
From: "Sandy Macmillan" <scotsman at kems.net>
Subject: SS Passivation

Can anyone direct me to information on passivation of stainless steel. I
understand I will be using 10% Nitric acid, but I am trying to find out
about pretreatment, timing etc.
The reason is I am fabricating a conical fermentor in 316L SS.
Private email is find as this may not appeal to the full list.

Sandy Macmillan
Brewing in a dry place



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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 09:13:14 -0400 
From: "Penn, John" <John.Penn at jhuapl.edu>
Subject: bulk hops and outmeal stout

Thanks for the replies on bulk hops and my outmeal stout.  Seems
www.freshops.com is a good source for bulk hops and shipping is included
which makes the price pretty good.  After all the input on my oatmeal stout,
I think it will look like so...

Outmeal Stout (partial mash) OG~1.057 IBU~40   5 gallons (2.5 gallon partial
boil)
Mash:  3# pale malt
           1# quick oats
           1/2# flaked barley
           6oz roasted barley
           2oz chocolate malt
          
          4.5 # M&F light extract (LME)
          13 HBUs (~2oz N.B. 6.5%) bittering hops 45-50 min boil
          finishing hops? TBD
          Nottingham Dry yeast 
Thanks for all the help.
 
   I was glad to see Alan Meeker's response on yeast attenuation.   I was
also under the impression that different yeasts had different abilities to
break down the more complex sugars in the wort.  It almost seemed from a
recent post, that any beer that doesn't attenuate (to say 75%) would
presumably continue to attenuate in the bottle and eventually overcarbonate.
But I know from personal experience that a previous stout that was a low
attenuator has not changed carbonation levels in over 2 years in the bottle.
That stout was extract based and finished at a whopping 1.035 from a start
around 1.090.  If the yeasts were still trying to attenuate the remaining
1.035, I would have some serious bottle bombs.  Yet they are very stable and
unchanging.  So it would seem that different yeasts do attenuate a complex
mix of sugars, i.e. "worts", differently.
   John Penn
   Eldersburg, MD


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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 09:09:30 -0500
From: charlybill at xpressway.net (Charles Walker)
Subject:  Vacuum sealing hops , Fermenting in cornys .

**For those of you who are interested, the vacuum sealer I use is made by
Tilia.  I purchased the Food Saver II on sale for $120 from Kohls (no
affiliation with either etc. etc. etc.)  So watch for a sale! Regular price
is in the $150 to $170 range.**

    I  (we) too have a Food Saver II and really love for kitchen duty, hops,
what ever you want to seal up. You can vacuum pack the bag or just seal it
without vacuuming. Tilia also makes another model (more expensive of course)
which alows you to control the amout of vacuum force. We bought outs at
Sam's and they have replacement bags, a box with 4 rolls for about $30.

    On the topic of fermenting in cornys, I just use a gas quick disconnect
with a hose run into a container of iodophor solution, ie: blow off tube.
The only thing I did to the corny was cut off the dip tube a bit. I actually
use this for a 2ndary, use a Sanky type keg with a clamp on fitting for the
top  as a primary for 10 gal batches. I use the same fittings for it and it
has worked fine. (All my glass carboys currently reside in my attic.)

Charlie Walker
Lancaster, Texas




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Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 15:29:33 GMT
From: "Eric Cartman" <cartman_10101 at hotmail.com>
Subject: brewing integrity

HBDers,
    I am a little concerned about the poster hiding behind this Fred Garvin 
character. How can we trust the comments that he makes? Is he truly as 
perverted as he claims, or is he attempting to use his professed authority 
to mislead us into performing unnatural acts with bottle brushes 
andPrimeTabs?
    People who are dishonest about their identities are obviously inferior 
brewers, and should refrain from doing anything but cowering in the linen 
closet. (So, Fred, please--back into the closet!)>>>>

I am a personal friend of Fred.  He is everything he says he is and more. As 
a matter of fact Friday he, I, and Eric Fouch got together to brew a batch, 
reminisce on times of old and perform deep cavity searches.  I must say he 
is quite a person.  Twice the man and brewer that Alan Meeker is.  At least 
he can admit when he is wrong.  So please no further question of the 
integrity of this man.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com



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Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 08:38:46 -0700
From: The Holders <zymie at sprynet.com>
Subject: May this thread be cast aside

Lynne says:

"I understood that lead is added for machining.  Aren't brass valves
cast,
not machined."

Uhhh.....last time I looked, there are "machined" threads in the valves.
Now I'm no metallurgist, but I'd guess a little lead would aid the
internal threading of the valve.

How about asking the place you bought them for a Material Safety Data
Sheet (MSDS)?

Wayne Holder AKA Zymie
Long Beach CA
http://www.zymico.com


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Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 07:53:10 +0000
From: "Troy Hager" <thager at hcsd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Fermentor-to-Keg Flavor/Aroma Experiment

Hello to all,

Last weekend I racked five gallons of IPA out of the fermentor into the keg.
It had been conditioning in the fermentor for about 2 weeks at 32F. I had
tasted it many times (including right before racking) and it tasted very
malty, alcoholic, with a lot of hops - it tasted excellent. All the flavors
and aroma were very clean, pronounced and distinct.

I used a very clean (PBW/Star San) cornie, I pressure cooked the keg lid and
fittings, I cleaned the pick up tub with a brush. I purged the keg, racked
the beer, and purged the headspace. I placed about 30psi CO2 on it and
rolled it around a while and repeated a few times.

I then tapped it and let it settle for a while and sampled. I was surprised
to see how different it was. Of course it was carbonated - but beyond that
the flavors had changed quite significantly. The hops and malt were still
there in the nose but there was also another smell - I call it "gassy" -
somewhat medicinal although that does not discribe it well.

The flavors were not as robust now that it was carbonated. They seemed more
muddled and not as distinct and clean as they were in the fermentor. It had
lost something that made me say, "Wow this is fantastic!" in the fermentor,
to "This is good but not great" in the keg.

I know my descriptors are very lacking but the fact is that the smell and
tastes changed significantly when it was transfered to the keg and
carbonated. I can reasonably attribute these changes to the gas because I
*very* carefully cleaned and sanitized the keg with high quality cleaners.

Has anyone else experienced this? I the past I have always noticed a change
in flavor pre-carbonation to post-carbonation - my beers taste great out of
the fermentor, but are lacking in the keg. This experiment pins it down to
the CO2. Anyone have a clue about what this could be? Is there such a thing
as food grade CO2 and I have been getting the wrong gas? I just have my
bottles filled by the local welding shop...

Should I try adding sugar instead of force carbonating next time? If I do
that, can I still cold condition in the fermentor? Has anyone found that
force carbonating changes the aroma and flavors of their beers?

Personal responses welcomed!

Troy


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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:44:28 -0600
From: "Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies" <orders at paddockwood.com>
Subject: cleaning scorched stainless steel

 "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> comments
"scorch can be removed fairly painlessly from pots with strong acid soaks -
but it doesn't do anything good for a SS surface in the long run"

I'm not sure if Steve Alexander is referring to a stained surface or
scorched-on gunk. A PBW soak is extremely effective at removing oxidized
material easily, and a StarSan rinse will help keep the SS passivated.
Neither will harm the surface, in the short or long run.

I don't think PBW will remove a heat stain. I've used a Lagostina powdered
cleanser, which is fairly abrasive, to remove heat stains from my SS cooking
pots. I don't worry about heat stains on my brewing equipment.

Stephen Ross -- "Vitae sine cerevesiae sugat."
______________________________________________
Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK
orders at paddockwood.com  www.paddockwood.com



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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 10:44:35 -0600
From: "Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies" <orders at paddockwood.com>
Subject: storing hops

"J. Doug Brown" <jbrown at mteer.com> asks about vacuum sealers crushing hops.
We use a vacuum sealer to store all our hops. While the oxygen barrier
plastic bag conforms closely to the hop flowers, slightly squishing them,
and some hop dust and pollen accumulates at the bottom of a bag after
repeated re-sealings, there is no real problem in usage or alpha strength.
The hops perform predictably.

The biggest factor in hop freshness is temperature. Check out
http://www.paddockwood.com/guide_hop_usage.html#STORAGE

Vacuum sealing in an oxygen barrier bag is best, but simply freezing them in
jars or Ziplocs will keep them fresh for months. Promash has a great
calculator for easily estimating the aa% of stored hops.


Stephen Ross -- "Vitae sine cerevesiae sugat."
______________________________________________
Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK
orders at paddockwood.com  www.paddockwood.com



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Date: 4 Apr 2000 10:47:56 -0700
From: "Matt Hollingsworth" <colorart at spiritone.com>
Subject: Secondary under pressure

Hello,

I'm brewing a kolsch this weekend and plan on racking into a corny
immediately after primary.  I want to cold condition and carbonte the beer
naturally in the keg without priming.

Anybody doing this?  And with what results?

 -Matt


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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 13:57:38 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: HSA ( aka hot wort oxidation)

Brewsters:

I guess I don't understand the fuss over whether or not HSA (who invented
that stupid term, anyway?) or as I call it in real English  "hot wort
oxidation" exists. 

There should be no question about whether or not it is real. It is.

As to the Pivo experiment in which lots of crystal malt was incorporated
into the mash, his lack of a detectable difference doesn't surprise me too
much  as crystal malt actually masks the effect to some extent. The same
experiment with plain lager mash might have produced a different result if
we could be sure he didn't get hot wort oxidation of his control by using
his normal methods. For example, boiling in a small open kettle will also
produce hot wort oxidation. Don't believe it? Boil one kettle open and the
other covered 2/3 ( after boilup) so you get a jet of steam keeping the air
away from the wort surface. Compare these worts for color and do a separate
fermentation.  You will understand.  That is the real flaw in his
experiment, we don't know that his control had no hot wort oxidation, do
we? If he did, that would also explain his "no difference" results.

If you really want to do an experiment and  see how bad hot wort oxidation
can be and become a believer, try this method which I used in the dawn of
my homebrewing. Filter the hops out of the nearly boiling hot lager wort by
pouring the wort through a collander into an open fermenter with all the
concomitant splashing.  Luckily, I figured out ( before there were any HB
books to tell me ) that this was a bad thing or I wouldn't be brewing
today.  

Once you have done this experiment and  have convinced yourself it is a
real phenomenon and you know how it tastes, you can look over your methods
and reduce this phenomenon which <is> important for the small volume, high
surface activities which characterize homebrewing.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: 4 Apr 00 11:48:32 MDT (Tue)
From: rcd at raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: re: bouncing carboys/Fermenting in cornys

Aaron Perry wrote about "the one that got away" (a carboy) in spite of care
to have it and his hand dry to pick it up.  We could pick at why it might
have happened, for example,
> ...Sample glass in hand I grabbed the primary by the DRY neck ...
not having both hands to deal with the carboy, but I don't think that will
be either convincing or useful.

I will, however, point out (again) that I've not broken a carboy in now 20+
years of brewing, even in spite of having developed a neck problem in
recent years that can cause my hands to do not quite what I tell them to
sometimes.  I've been slightly lucky in the sense that I've done a few not-
quite-bright things with carboys and not had them break...but mostly it's
because I follow a few rules religiously:
  1 Carboys are solitary and bad-tempered, so don't let two of them get
    close or they may fight to the death.
  2 When carrying a carboy, carry nothing else--*especially* don't carry
    two carboys at once!  (no, not even if they're empty)
  3 Never set a carboy down on concrete.
  4 Always wear closed shoes with firm soles that won't slip in the brewing
    environment.
I've used carboy "handles"--the neck-gripping type--ever since they became
available in the homebrew market.  Never had a problem, never saw any like-
lihood of a problem, and they've certainly helped where I've had to carry
carboys up and down stairs (most of my brewing years).

I'm not trying to convince you to keep using glass if you're not comfor-
table with it; I'm just saying that it can be safe.  Glass is great stuff
in terms of its inertness to anything we use in brewing.
- ---
Dick Dunn          rcd at talisman.com          Hygiene, Colorado  USA
   ...Simpler is better.


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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:19:02 +0200
From: "Francois Zinserling" <francois at designtech.co.za>
Subject: Unit conversion



I've seen the odd argument about units and conversions on the 
HBD. A utility I found at http://www.joshmadison.com/software/ 
offers a neat conversion utility for ANY, yes ANY unit. Sheesh, it 
even tells you how many inches there are in a light year !
Click on the arrows in the left frame and download "convert"
 
CYA
ZING (ZA)



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Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 16:26:27 -0400
From: stencil <stencil at bcn.net>
Subject: Re:  bouncing carboys

Although it won't help much if you really do drop the carboy,
you can clothe the jug in a basketball net (Walmart etc.) and
significantly improve your handling control.  A piece of 1/2-in
vinyl tubing about 30-in long, with some 14-ga wire rove
through it and the whole threaded through the hem loops, makes
a good base ring.  A piece of nylon nine-thread works well too.
Beware the braided yelow polypropylene - knots and splices work
free all too easily.

stencil sends
RKBA!


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Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 13:06:01 -0600
From: "NATHAN T Moore" <NTMOORE at SMTPGATE.DPHE.STATE.CO.US>
Subject: RE: Belgian Wit

There are two types of coriander.  One is the macrocarpum, or
 large seed, and the other is microcarpum or small seed.  What
 is commonly available is the large seed, from India, Australia, 
and I think Canada.  The small seed has a much higher oil content,
 and I believe is grown more often in Europe.  Other than the oil 
content, which is important for those making essential oils or other 
medicinal items, I don't believe there is much of a difference in flavor 
as far as brewing is concerned, freshness is probably a lot more 
important.  Actualy I remeber reading or hearing someone say that 
they prefered the largest seeds they could find in their wits.  What 
do other people think, other than those that are not telling for 
commercial reasons?  


As far as Curacao orange peel I am not aware of any variations, is anyone else?

Nate




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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:07:55 -0400 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Belgian Ale

Lynne O'Conner hint amongst "us girls" about not using bittering hops in a
wit is a good hint for those who want to get closer to the true wits.  The
best one I've made used the bitter orange (and probably the wrong one but it
worked well) as the bittering agent in the boil at first runnings.  The
corriander (and again maybe the wrong one, but I do get excellent corriander
from the local Middle Eastern food shop) was added at both what would have
been a flavor hop addition (about 30-20 minutes to go) and flavor hop
addition (5 minutes to knockout).  I've made a very good (40+ score in
competitions) by using the skin of the everyday sweet oranges available at
the local grocery store.  Just carefully took the with pith off and let the
remaining skin dry in the air.  I'm sure THAT's NOT the right orange, but
hey, it worked well and was cheap since I got to eat the oranges!

Dave Houseman


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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 19:24:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: fred_garvin at fan.com
Subject: Fred's Tip Corner

One of the Pvio Plethora quiped to 
another of his ilk:
>
But I have a moment to make a few 
comments. Dr Pivo 49 is curious as to
the measure of perversity of the 
man behind Fred Garvin. Dr Pivo 49, 
the man about whom you enquire is 
highly perverse, be in no doubt about 
this!
>

Fred Garvin is not perverse!
He's just "big boned".

On to the tips!
If you'r at a loss for rice hulls,
toss a pound or so of unground malt
in your grist to insure a stick free
mash.

Fill a 2-liter bottle with an iodophor
solution and cap with a carbonater cap
(no, Kyle, it's not yours).  This makes
a great cleaning aid when rinsing out
your Phills Philler.

Speaking of counter pressure bottle
filling, if you want to get that extra
volume or two of CO2, add the 
appropriate amount of priming sugar to 
the keg: If you carbonate past 2.5 
volumes, bottle with the Philler is no 

Last but not least, if someone named 
"Alan" sends you his barleywine, just
say "NO!"

Fred "I'll get MY PhD first!" Garvin
Kentwood MI 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Get free email from CNN Sports Illustrated at http://email.cnnsi.com/


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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:03:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Joe O'Meara" <drumthumper_2000 at yahoo.com>
Subject: tequiza clone

Fellow Brewers,
I'm thinking about doing a tequiza clone using
prickley pear cactus.  It'll be a 5 gallon partial
mash.  Any suggestions (hops, malt, etc)?  Private
e-mail ok.


TIA,

=====
Joe O'Meara
Mad Dwarf Brewery (AKA my kitchen and coat closet)
ICQ # 60722006
http://homebrew.4mg.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com


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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 21:18:27 -0400
From: "Jimmy Hughes" <inspector at bmd.clis.com>
Subject: SS pots

I have found a better price,

http://www.heartlandamerica.com/site.asp

select "household", "kitchen"

$39.99

Happy trails to you, 'til we meet again..............
Check out the free items, go to,
http://www.ncinspections.com
scroll down, click on the free after rebate link........
Save money, enjoy........
 


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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 13:05:33 -0700 
From: "Timmons, Frank" <frank.timmons at honeywell.com>
Subject: Eight Annual Dominion Cup 

The James River Homebrewers are pleased to announce the 8th Annual Dominion
Cup Homebrew Competition on May 20, 2000. The judging will be held at the
Legend Brewery in Richmond, VA. Entries are now being accepted through May
12, 2000. To receive an entry packet or to request more information, E-mail
me at francis_23227 at yahoo.com. 

Visit our web site, http://www.geocities.com/jrhb_2000/> for more
information. Judging will be done by BJCP judges, to the 1999 style
descriptions. Our goal is to provide each entry with constructive feedback
from our pool of judges.

On the same weekend in Richmond, the River City Beer Festival will be  held
on the historic riverfront. Many different craft brewers from the
Mid-Atlantic region will be represented at the festival, and the winners of
the Dominion Cup will be announced on stage at the festival on Saturday
evening. Come join us in a toast to the winners and spend a most pleasurable
day in our historic city.  

We still have openings for a couple more BJCP program judges.  If you are
interested, email me with a phone number and snail mail address so that I
can confirm your registration.



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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:17:00 -0400
From: "Jimmy Hughes" <inspector at bmd.clis.com>
Subject: clean glasses

I have found a way to clean glasses.

I now use Acetone, rinse well and voila, a clean glass

Happy trails to you, 'til we meet again..............
Check out the free items, go to,
http://www.ncinspections.com
scroll down, click on the free after rebate link........
Save money, enjoy........
 


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Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 12:50:51 +1000
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Off-Topic: Vinegar

John Thompson asked about making vinegar from Wine.

I have been making it for the last 15 years, and IIRC you need to start
with a suitable culture.  The best way to get one is to look in the
dregs of a shop bought 'wine' vinegar and use that to inoculate your
'fermenter'.  The Acetic bacteria will form a thin skin on the top
(called the mother) where the bacteria will slowly convert the alcohol
into acetic acid.  It will take 3-6 months for the process to mature,
after which you can draw off a maximum of 30% of the volume and refill. 
It is best to draw the vinegar from below the mother so that it is not
disturbed.

I keep 2 fermenters going (a Red & a white) and both make very nice
vinegar.  The Red is far sharper and more flavoursome than anything that
you can buy.

You can just leave a part used bottle open to the air (plugged with
cotton wool to keep flies out) and it will naturaly convert, but this
will take a long time without a starter.

Off Topic ?  Making a starter from a commercial product, top fermenting,
racking - sounds very much like beer making to me.

Be aware though, that after a few years, the bugs will be well
established in your atmosphere.  And you will need to be very carefull
with your brewing.  I find that any fermentable liquid left open to the
air quickly gets covered with a white skin and starts smelling like
vinegar.

Hope this helped... if not, I am happy to supply further details.

David Lamotte
Bacterially Brewing in Newcastle, N.S.W. Australia


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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:55:42 -0400
From: "Bruce M. Mills" <millsbruce at earthlink.net>
Subject: Kegging 15.5 gallons

I would like to use the 15.5 gallon kegs, on occasion,  to keg my beer. Does
anyone have any experiences or comments they would like to share ? I have a
full half barrel brewery,  CO2 system, and a fridge with adequate capacity
to store. I currently use 5 gallon corny kegs. If I were able to purchase a
couple of kegs, a tap, and the tool to access the interior, would I be able
to fill, clean,  and sanitize adequately without a commercial cleaning
system ? Any recommendations of a manufacturer that would sell just two new
kegs , tap, and the tool ? Not considering cost, are there other issues I
should know about ?

Bruce M. Mills
Hancock, NH





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Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 21:56:37 -0500
From: Brett Spivy <baspivy at softdisk.com>
Subject: LA / NA beer?!?

I remember that someone once posted some information about "baking" the
alcohol out of a beer!?!

Thinking I would NEVER need this info, i didn't save it and now cannot
find it in the archives.  Now though, i find out the guy that is
building my custom Harley (who I would like to endear myself to) only
drinks NA beer.  I have brewed a batch of my "Dream-A-Cream Ale" (based
on Renner & Sedam's Unfortunate Acronym CACA - thanx guys) and I like to
"bake" out the alcohol from about two gallons, then force carbonate, CP
bottle, and VIOLA -- Magic Touch: Bayou Custom Ale NA.

Can anyone help with the procedure?

Thanx . . .
Brett A. Spivy

PS - If anyone knows where I can get saddlebag carriers for cornies, I'm
sure my gas bottle and regulator will ride "bitch".



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Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 13:17:09 +1000
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Cleaning Brass

Lynne asks if brass valves are cast rather than machined, would there
still be lead added ?

Most pipe fittings start out being cast, but they still need to have
threads etc machined.  So, they would probably have a small amount of
lead added.

But as John Palmer said, it is only a small amount.  Still, if it
worries you, why not remove it anyway as they do go a nice colour.


David Lamotte
Newcastle, N.S.W. Australia


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Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 22:37:01 -0500
From: "Louis K. Bonham" <lkbonham at hypercon.com>
Subject: Lab stuff

Hi folks:

Well, the good folks at Cynmar (www.cynmar.com) are at it again . . . not
only do they now have a specific section of their on-line lab equipment
catalog dedicated especially to brewers, but they have a really great deal
on hemacytometers (essential for doing yeast counts): $49.  That's about
*half* of what I typically see them sell for.

Another item: a dozen 300ml Erlenmeyer flasks (great for doing wort
stability tests) for under $20.

No connection or financial interest; just a very satisfied long-time
customer, yadda yadda yadda.

LKB



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