HOMEBREW Digest #3336 Sat 27 May 2000

[Prev HBD] [Index] [Next HBD] [Back]

		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  FW: FW: Dr. Cone ("Rob Moline")
  Re: Brix, Balling, and Plato (Seth Goodman)
  Plastic bottles ("Darren Robey")
  Champagne Corker Needed Urgently (phil sides jr)
  Carboy Caps (Epic8383)
  Bar Fridge (Ant Hayes)
  The Jethro Gump Report ("Rob Moline")
  I suck, and I'm from Michigan (Mike Foster)
  AHA/Zymurgy (Bill_Rehm)
  cider/mead/homebrew competitions ("Houseman, David L")
  S.A. Boston Lager Hops (Bob Hall)
  Where has Brian Rezac gone? (VS Central)" <SIER1 at Aerial1.com>
  maris otter ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Exploding PET bottles ("Dave Edwards")
  no sucking anymore and honey issue ("Czerpak, Pete")
  RE: To suck or not to suc. Cry babies (LaBorde, Ronald)
  AHA BOA Election Post ("Gary Glass")
  Re: PET Bottles (Jim Adwell)
  yeast culturing questions ("Dalibor Jurina")
  Mash-out/foam rest ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  glyco protein ?s ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  suck/blow, Zymurgy content (Chris Cooper)
  Re: Siphon Starting (Steve Stripling)
  Re: Glyco proteins questions ("Hubert Hanghofer")
  Suck or Blow ("Eric R. Lande")
  Digital therm. for brewing (hal)
  Re: Siphon Sucking (Gil Drury)

* Don't miss the 2000 AHA NHC in Livonia, MI * 6/22 through 6/24 http://hbd.org/miy2k * Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!! To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!** IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to the digest as we canoot reach you. We will not correct your address for the automation - that's your job. The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit. More information is available by sending the word "info" to req at hbd.org. JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:30:28 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net> Subject: FW: FW: Dr. Cone - -----Original Message----- From: Clayton Cone Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 3:20 PM To: Rob Moline Subject: Re: FW: Dr. Cone Rob, As you know I returned a few days ago from a fabulous three week trip to Europe: Munich, Salzburg, Vienna, Krems, Budapest, Gyongyos, Prague and Berlin. Lots of great beer and wine. I just now had a chance to read the letters of appreciation from the HBD readers. I am overwhelmed by their comments. It made all the sweating that I did to give them good answers worth it. If you can, please let them know that I appreciate their comments. Clayton Cone Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 17:43:06 -0400 From: Seth Goodman <sethgoodman at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: Brix, Balling, and Plato In HBD #3332, Frank Tutzauer asks: >3. Pronunciation. Is it pronounced BREE, as in Grand Prix, or >is it BRICKS as in, well, bricks? It is the latter - pronounced BRICKS. HTH, Seth Goodman Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:58:57 +1000 From: "Darren Robey" <drobey at awb.com.au> Subject: Plastic bottles Jim Adwell said: >Did I mention that PET has a burst strength of 8000 psi per mil of >thickness? Not likely you can get yeast to develop that kind of pressure, >huh? And I bet you can't get a PET bottle to break no matter how hard you >throw it at something. And... Just had to comment on this one. When I was a young lad I used to make some sort of ginger beer. Made with lost of sugar, ginger etc and (forbid it) bread yeast. What a gingery yeasty flavour that had! Anyhow, I to used to bottle in PET after seeing a glass one blow up a few years before. No injuries thankfully but wow what a bang. Anyhow, I did see one split one day. Not blow the cap off, it split right down the side. I heard a pop in the shed and went out to investigate. Well there was a sticky ginger mess everywhere BUT no glass!!! Just hose it out and all was cleaned up. No this was probable due to a fault in the bottle rather than making the sort of pressure you talk about above, but the bottles were darn hard. As a side point, these were supposed to be non alcoholic soda type drinks, but I did leave a few for some months and they became a lot dryer and a few young lads at least thought we got drunk on it!!! By now Darren Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 01:00:26 -0400 From: phil sides jr <psides at technologist.com> Subject: Champagne Corker Needed Urgently Apparently champagne corkers were once available to the homebrew trade but are no longer. Does anyone know a source for champagne corkers? How about somone with a used one you would like to convert to cash? Phil Sides, Jr. Concord, NH - -- F u cn rd ths u cnt spl wrth a dm! Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 01:51:04 EDT From: Epic8383 at aol.com Subject: Carboy Caps Hiya, Some folks were lamenting their infected beers caused by blowing into the carboy cap, here's what I do... 1) Put the racking cane just barely through the cap and fasten it to the neck of the carboy. 2) Put the outflow end into the bottom of the recieving vessel. 3) Hook up CO2 bottle to carboy cap and barely crack open the valve, you are now purging air from the racking cane and receiving vessel in one shot. 4) After 10-15 seconds, slowly push the racking cane down into the beer, adjust CO2 pressure to fill racking cane. 5) As soon as flow is flowin', unhook CO2 line and then shut it off. 6) Sit back, have a brew, and admire what a neat gizmo the carboy cap is. It's a good idea to hold the cap on with one hand as you're applying CO2, just in case you hit it with too much pressure or it doesn't fit the neck too snugly :^o I'm gonna try this to filter my kolsh next week, probably with a worm drive clamp lightly snug around the base of the cap for a good seal, I think I can finnese the pressure enough to drive the beer, yet not blow off the cap... Will post results-Gus Rappold Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:19:11 +0200 From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za> Subject: Bar Fridge Graham Sanders, regarding Dorm/Bar fridges down under said," Our bar fridges just hold the soft drinks, nothing more. We all have the big buggers out back, full of grog."; showing that South Africa has something else in common with Oz beyond Tiaan Strauss. In SA we have three categories of fridge: 1. Bar Fridge - for soft drinks (kept under the bar) 2. Beer Fridge - for wine and malt, hard tack (kept in the garage) 3. The Wife's Fridge - for other stuff. Young men usually acquire fridges in that order - women in the reverse. Ant Hayes Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 01:35:10 -0500 From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net> Subject: The Jethro Gump Report The Jethro Gump Report AHA Elections... The votes are in...the tallying is done....and the results are posted.... And I wish a hearty Congratulations to the new members of the Board! Welcome to the trying satisfaction of making an effort! Many folks banch and belch about what is...and what could never be...but some actually work for the benefit of others....often with no recognition...nor..sometimes results..... But, the effort is what counts...and your efforts towards enhancing brewing will be appreciated by at least one person...me! Seriously, I look forward to having your input. You represent the wishes of our members for leadership... So, I welcome each and everyone of you...and look forward to chewing the cud...and maybe hoisting a brew with you in Detroit next month! Personally, as a nominee of more than one of the candidates, I am proud of all of them, for they demonstrate the wishes of the Board for valued advice...and ultimately the members for representation.....and reflect those desires for input from a varied cross-section of geographical...and philosophical directions for our organization.... Whose entire purpose, as I see it...is to enhance the science...the art....and most especially, the cameraderie (the sport) of the brewing experience..... It is unfortunate that all of the nominees couldn't have a place on the Board, for they are all fine candidates, with something of substance to offer the homebrewing community, as they have always done in the past...but their names are always up for nomination in the next round of voting..... Zymurgy Mead Issue..... I welcomed this issue....as it addressed facts unknown to me...and as mead has always been at the side of my efforts...never made by me, but always on the hands of my many friends in the homebrewing and professional world...I learned a lot.... And Lord knows, I could always learn more..... Scholarship Drawing Imminent! The drawing for the Lallemand Scholarship will be held at the NHC in Detroit next month.....a full 2 week Short Course at the oldest brewing school in the US, the Siebel Institute....worth 2500 bucks...plus another thousand dollars for housing and travel..... The Scholarship drawing is open to all members of the AHA, who tender an entry for the drawing... Existing members can enter by phone...1-303-447-0816.. Then again, New members...or anyone considering that the odds of winning this...(currently less than 700 folks are in the drawing)....are better than a lottery ticket...and the prize is 2 weeks in Beer Heaven.. (Seriously...just ask Jim Liddil)... can get a ticket in the drawing by calling 1-888-UCAN-BREW...and join the AHA for 33 bucks...and get an entry in the drawing..... If you are a member...you can get extra entries in the Scholarship drawing by having any other folks that are new members refer you as their sponsor! (One enterprising bloke has at least 7 entries, I hear...as a result of signing up new members..!) Enough banch...this is more than likely the best chance ever offered for genuine beer dreams to come true.....I would enter myself, but am precluded from doing so by some rules I helped to write! Cheers! Jethro Gump (Who Has been To Dapto...and Woollongong!) "The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About Beer!" Rob Moline AHA AHA BOA IBS MBAA Siebel Alumni Brew Rat Ames Brewers League Lallemand 515-268-1836 home 515-450-0243 cell brewer at isunet.net jethro at isunet.net Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 05:48:52 -0400 From: Mike Foster <mike at asyoulikeit.org> Subject: I suck, and I'm from Michigan I swallow, too... I've never had any contamination problems with suck-starting my siphions, and it's a good opportunity to sample the beer between primary and secondary to see how things are coming along. Somebody mentioned the increased chance of contamination suck-siphoning from the boiling kettle to the primary... Okay, I can see worrying about that! Why would anyone siphon at this stage? I simply pour the beer from kettle to bucket. Aerates the wort nicely. Yeasties like that. ...and I never, ever suck when I'm sick... That's just asking for trouble! On a side note, I've noticed lately all the Michigan brewers posting to the digest. Good to know I'm surrounded by brewers here in the Great Lakes State! - -- Wolfger, in Mt. Clemens, MI http://www.asyoulikeit.org/wolfger Let me tell you the secret that has led me to my goal. My strength lies solely in my tenacity. - -- Louis Pasteur Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 07:25:42 -0500 From: Bill_Rehm at eFunds.Com Subject: AHA/Zymurgy This whole AHA/Zymurgy discussion is nuts! If the magazine sucks that bad why do you keep getting it? You all seem to know more than they do about running a large scale home brewing magazine and organization. I agree that BT may have been a better magazine, but hey it's gone now (why it didn't survive and Zymurgy does I don't know?). Just so you all know what my point of view is, I don't do mead (that's my wifes cup of tea), but I do use honey in many of the beers I brew. So just relax, where I am $33 will hardly get you 2 cases of Miller and a bag of corn chips! Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:59:39 -0400 From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com> Subject: cider/mead/homebrew competitions Dick Dunn says that: "Part of my opinion here is that I've never seen cider categories or judging in a homebrew competition that were within a boarding-house reach of being able to grab the long hairs of a clue. The AHA competition categories (the last I checked) had no relation to reality-as-we-know-it...they seemed, at best, to represent one slightly-besotted view of cider from New England in the US." I beg to differ. While certainly not every competition will have mead and cider categories and they certainly won't have experienced judges for these entries, I've judged in a number of competitions where the mead and cider expertise was excellent. A cider won the first Buzz Off competition, but what did a bunch of us local judges know? That same cider won Cider Maker of the year for its makers that same year, so I guess we did know something. One of the judges, Nick Funnel, was an English brewer so that did help ;-) in seeing that this was an excellent cider. And how will judges gain experience and knowledge about ciders and meads without the experience of judging? Limit all cider judging to a few competitions in specific geographies? Drink them, make them, judge them; hopefully read and study as well. While I cannot comment about the older AHA competition categories, Dick, as the expert, was consulted for his input for the cider (maybe mead too, but I forget) categories for the new BJCP and AHA style guide. David Houseman Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:12:15 -0700 From: Bob Hall <nap_aca_bh at nwoca.org> Subject: S.A. Boston Lager Hops Need some information on Sam Adam's Boston Lager. I love the hop profile (read that only noble hops are used) and would appreciate any insight on the types, amounts, IBUs, hopping schedule, etc? Tastes to me as if it's been dry hopped? Hopping for the best, Bob Bob Hall, Technology Director Napoleon Area Schools Napoleon, OH 43545 Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:27:16 -0400 From: "Sieben, Richard (VS Central)" <SIER1 at Aerial1.com> Subject: Where has Brian Rezac gone? I found out yesterday that Brian Rezac is no longer with Five Star. Does anyone know what happened to him? Rich Sieben Island Lake, IL Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:13:59 -0400 From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com> Subject: maris otter A few days ago I asked a question about maris Otter. I have found that there are definitely a few suppliers of it. Muntons, Hugh Baird, Beestons, and i think that may be all that I have found for US available varieties. Could anybody comment on their happiness with any of them? I got muntons but only cause I didn't realize there were other brands to try for - I would have asked for Hugh Baird if I had known since I seem to recall more folks using this one. people refer to using maris otter in a number of HBD posted recipes - which one did you use, did you like it, how consistant is it?? normally i have used muntons 2-row or briess 2 row and occasionally weyermanns munich when I need more malt so this is a change for me. I'm gonna break in the new mash tun and grain mill next week on a test batch of American style browne ale since they're pretty hard to screw up even if extraction isn't quite where I plan it at. I'm excited to move out of the oven mash technology too with the Gott. No more Zapap and grain bag for allgrain for me. perhaps I'll donate it to a needy brewer... Getting boils off the stovetop is next since I've been thinking about it for 2 yrs now. Thanks for any help, Pete czerpak albany, NY pete.czerpak at siigroup.com Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 00:02:33 +0930 From: "Dave Edwards" <eddiedb at senet.com.au> Subject: Exploding PET bottles Jim Adwell wrote: | Did I mention that PET has a burst strength of 8000 psi per mil of | thickness? Not likely you can get yeast to develop that kind of pressure, | huh? And I bet you can't get a PET bottle to break no matter how hard you | throw it at something. While the strength of PET bottles may be true on paper, it is not quite so true in real life. What I refer to is that a fellow brewer mate of mine here in Oz likes to brew cider. He also likes to bottle it in PET bottles, which he stores in a cupboard next to his glass bottles. What I'm getting at is that he made a bad batch and some exploded, not just one by the way. One, which was stored on a high shelf, exploded with such power that it broke in half, and the top part embedded itself into the ceiling. Another, which was stored in the cupboard, blew open the cupboard door, broke about half a dozen glass bottles and projected pieces of glass accross the room, some 7 metres. The above mentioned examples are not healthy situations, and I would just advise anyone who bottles in PET to be careful, they are NOT indestructable. Cheers, Dave. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:36:16 -0400 From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com> Subject: no sucking anymore and honey issue On the carboy siphon issue, I have been using the fill the siphon hose with water to start the siphon method for the last few years. I used to be a sucker then progressed to a gargle with vodka sucker in my Boulder, CO days, and now use the fill the hose method. Can't say I had too many problems with any of them that have could be contributed to sanitation problems. I have lost maybe 4 batches total ever and 3 were in my first 2 years. Incidently, I did get my stuff from paul Gatza's store when I lived there and he was always happy to talk beer, etc. You can use the orange rubber top for the carboy with 2 holes as a siphon starter if you have a spare CO2 line of your keg system. make sure to lower the pressure although I would hope that the rubber top would blow off the carboy before it exploded into nice glass scards. or ferment in cornies and just transfer under pressure with no change of explosion. anyways, about the honey issue. I am all for it, even if it covered alot of mead, as long as it doesn't appear too frequently (maybe every 3-5 years or something) and always get different people to write the articles and also make sure they aren't using paragraphs from previous articles too. its good to educate yourself in other beverages. make ales, make lagers, make belgians (maybe even make a CAP ;) ). drink a nice glass of Merlot once in a while or drink a nice mead or cider for variety and experiment. even try brewing them for a challenge or change. think about sake for a major change (haven't tried this myself). i am a 6 yr brewer now (joined AHA 2 yrs ago), been making one or two wines a year (since the SO tends to like wine more than beer- although I have convinced her that a 60 IBU IPA is a thing of beauty as are most well made barley wines), and even attempted a mead about 6 weeks ago. i am glad that someone (BJCP and AHA) has supported production of mead for competitions since its not large enough to really support itself. Thanks for listening. Brew lots and brew hoppy, Pete Czerpak albany, NY Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:36:54 -0500 From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald) Subject: RE: To suck or not to suc. Cry babies It seems as though there exists many opinions and methods regarding this topic. After reading all the various methods I thought I would throw one more on the tarmac. I have in the past used sucking, Iodaphor in the hose, turkey baster, and have had varying results with every method. I have finally decided on the following: * I use a 3/8 od by 3/36 id vinyl hose about 5 or 6 feet long. I put the small end cap from a racking cane onto the end of the tubing. Now I do not have that problem with the bubble appearing at the racking cane junction because I have no racking cane. The 3/8 od tubing is placed as far down as I can get it to the bottom. This method is fairly slow because of the 3/16 id. I do not consider this a problem, but an advantage. When racking I get VERY little agitation and yeast pull-up. It is a compromise because it takes longer - about 20 minutes, but I look at it as more time to have fun. Because of the small volume inside the 3/16 id hose, a turkey baster works with one suck. With the racking cane and tubing setup, the baster just could not pull the liquid far enough to work and this was very cumbersome. If I want to suck, I place a rubber stopper part way over the output end and suck on it and when flow starts, I pull off the stopper. I have finally built a sampling jar with two hose barbs in the cover of a Mason jar. I can then suck on a foot long tube on one barb and the liquid enters the jar. After I have my sample (to get test results), I pull the hose off and continue racking. I watch the hose because it curves, and when near the bottom, I tilt the carboy and place the hose and cap at the deepest spot, I get just about all the liquid out and almost nothing else because of the slow speed. - --------- So many cry babies about Mead in Zymurgy. I do not subscribe, but jeez, get over it. You'll live!!!! Ron Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu http://hbd.org/rlaborde Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:46:51 -0600 From: "Gary Glass" <gary at aob.org> Subject: AHA BOA Election Post Jim Liddil writes: >Now it is great to read on the HBD (a non AHA entity) about the new BofA >advisors. I am wondering why members could not have been notified via >techtalk... The same post that went to the HBD on the new BOA members went to both versions of techtalk (vol.00-0424pm) the evening before it appeared in the HBD. Cheers, Gary - ------------------------- Gary Glass, Administrator American Homebrewers Association 736 Pearl Street PO Box 1679 Boulder, CO 80306-1679 U.S.A. Voice: (303) 447-0816 x 121 Fax: (303) 447-2825 Email: gary at aob.org Web: http://www.beertown.org Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:11:47 -0400 From: Jim Adwell <jimala at apical.com> Subject: Re: PET Bottles Karl D. Loeffler wrote: >Hi Jim, > >Read your post on the HBD today and do have a point to make. PET >bottles can and will explode. I don't think they will explode under >the pressures that are induced by carbonated beer, but one never >knows does he. > >Why do I say they can explode then? I was at an R/C airplane meet >one day and watched an incredible looking 1/4 scale R/C plane >explode in mid-air. QUITE impressive, although the owner of this >$3000+ plane was crying. What happened? The PET bottle he used >to contain the compressed air to run his landing gear retracts >exploded. He only pumped the bottle pressure to 75PSI so how he >was wondering how it could possibly explode with what he knew about >the strength of these things. Well, what happens is that over time >and use the burst pressure of PET bottles drops. He had used this >bottle probably a hundred times. The last time was just too much >for it. Plastic Bottle Man responds: There's PET bottles and then there's those bottled water bottles that look like PET but aren't designed for pressure. Also PET can be weakened by high temperatures; the maximum usable temperature is around 140F. And they don't like below freezing temperatures much either. They should NOT be heat sterilized, either wet or dry. Strong acids and strong oxidising agents will cause them to fail. I personally have over-carbonated a few bottles to the point where I couldn't press the sides in at all, and the top was almost impossible to twist off. I have also exploded a few glass bottles, and I am thankful I wasn't near them when they went off. It is also possible that the compressed air bottle you mention had been abraded or otherwise damaged and failed because of that. And if one of my PET bottles does explode, I won't be picking glass shards out of everything, including me. Some info about gas permiability: Permeability of PET (cc/100 in2 /mil/day/atm) N2 .8 O2 5 CO2 15 for comparison, high-density polyethylene: Permeability of HDPE (cc/100 in2 /mil/day/atm) N2 42 O2 185 CO2 580 The figures for glass would be zero, of course. These figures are from the Wheaton Scientific web site: http://www.wheatonsci.com/html/fm/PlasticResins.html Cheers, Jim Jim's Brewery Pages: http://home.ptd.net/~jimala/brewery/ Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:02:15 +0200 From: "Dalibor Jurina" <dalibor.jurina at ri.tel.hr> Subject: yeast culturing questions In the book "Brew ware" I have found advises for yeast culturing but since my English is, well not so good, some phrases are not understandable to me, so please an explanation would be more than appreciated. - ... sanitize the container, then flame the mouth of the starter vessel with a butane lighter... (how to flame the mouth of the starter)? - refrigerate yeast culture ( refrigerate is under 32 F or above)? - gelatinized medium or agar (what is agar)? - to make a starter (for 5 gal batch) from slants I need to make a microstarter 75 ml and then after few days and then pour the microstarter to starter (500 ml). The question is, if I want to make a starter for 50 gal batch I simple make pour 500 ml starter in larger vessel with 1,5 gal wort and make "macro starter" or not? Thanks to all who contribute in HBD for helping us potential homebrewers Dalibor Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:20:17 -0400 From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com> Subject: Mash-out/foam rest Steve, >>> I imagine the activity about doubles through the 18 degree F of the[...] >>I thought you would say this - it is a common misunderstanding. >>The short answer is that you're half-right, you've ignored the >>denaturing rate temp dependence and must perform the integral >>to understand what is really happening. Though I had addressed the denaturing half-life in that paragraph. The intrinsic rate doubles at the temps mentioned, that some BA is denatured at the same time doesn't affect the rate at which the enzymes make each cleavage. The difference in fermentability comes not from the denaturing of BA but from the also increased action of AA. Given a hypothetic mash with unlimited starch and 1 beta amylase molecule and one Alpha molecule. As the mash commences, the BA can only cleave one maltose from a reducing end then move to the next available site. Simultaneously the AA makes 1 cleavage and moves on to the next site. The AA has now created 2 additional sites to burden the BA. _If_ the 2 enzymes worked at the same rate (cleaves/minute) it would only take 4 iterations before there was 16 additional sites for the BA to reduce. Understood that not all cleavages by the AA would strictly produce 2 additional reducing ends; but this points to the reason for less fermentability in a high temp mash. AA action overwhelms the ability of BA to keep up and reduce every A-limit dextrine further. If a mash was held at 158 for 1/2 hour then like I said there is still 25% of the BA remaining active the only thing that can happen is the BA will go on creating maltose. After 15 more minutes there is still 12.5% of the original BA available, still producing maltose. >>It seems to say that if you mash very thin (~2qt/lb) and pulverize the p*ss out of your malt and [like other congress mashes] perform no pH correction. << 1.5 quarts/lb is 3:1, after a boiling water infusion to hit mash-out this would be 4:1, not out of the realm of real life mash tuns. To insure repeatablity of the experiment from one lab to the other of course pulverizing to flour is necessary negate differences in the labs mills and malt kernel size to ensure predicted results. The mash liquor had 150g/L calcium, this should correct mash pH to normal levels. >>Then after 20' at 60C & 90' at 68C & 90' at 71C gets you 125ppm of critical protein, then for an outlandish 90' long at 75C mashout you only get another 20ppm.<< repeating.... Findings-foam active proteins increased in each mash at the 30 minute interval. 68C mash yielding 85 mg/L, 71C mash yielding 125mg/L, 75C mash yielding 145mg/L I never mentioned the 90 minute levels. But since you brought it up; the levels for 90 min. at 75C were 190mg/L. Over twice the foam active proteins of the 68C 1/2 hour rest. After 1/2 hour at 68 C or 71 or 75 the levels of foam-active glyco-proteins were measured: 85/145=58% increase of foam + glyco-proteins; significant I would say. >>What you have argued above is that a rather non-standard mash and a protracted 1.5 hour mashout<< Nope, 1/2 hour will do it. >>1/ How much of this protein fraction is necessary for entirely normal levels of foam ?<< What is "normal" to you is the question. My original statement was a mash-out _improves_foam stand. Doubling the foam active proteins should have significant effect on a "normal" foam-stand. >>How do we know the same proteins wouldn't be released given the last THREE HOURS at 68C rather than 71C and 75C ?<< You need to see the graph of the results, but the rise in proteins at 68C is about 10mg/l from the 30 minute sample to the 90 minute sample. The rise in the 75C samples is 35mg/L over the 90 minute period. Over three times the G-P production in the 75C mash vs 68C mash. >>You've written that my experimental beers couldn't have had normal level of head (tho' I experienced it) - and your proof is an experiment which cannot be compared to normal brewing practice. << Never said your beers had poor head, just stated that a high temperature mash-out (72-74C) could improve it; if you took that as slamming your beer you misunderstood. If people aren't mashing out then they are indeed not utilizing the proteins available to produce a lasting head and clinging lace. There is nothing abnormal with the mash in the experiment cited. 4:1 water/grist same as a normal mash with a boiling water infusion. 150 ppm Ca++ to cause proper mash acidification. And since many breweries are going to mash-filters, grinding the piss out of the malt is now quite normal. >> No source calls 71C mashout.<< Two professional brewers (1 Weihenstephen graduate) and a malster I spoke to call it mash out. >>How do we know the same proteins wouldn't be released given the last THREE HOURS at 68C rather than 71C and 75C ?<< Weren't you complaining that the added 1/2 hour was too much? now you suggest 3 hours??? is that what they call specious? >>You've written that my experimental beers couldn't have had normal level of head (tho' I experienced it) << Never said your beers didn't have a normal head, said this rest profile could _improve_head retention. >> - and your proof is an experiment which cannot be compared to normal brewing practice.<< I see, your basement brewery is a more significant source of brewing technology than the Beer Research Institute, Suntory Ltd. >> Then you assume that more of this protein fraction appearing above 70C (and beyond hours 2, 3, & 4 of the mash!) means that stopping the mash at 70C would not have produced normal head without basis<< I didn't not _assume_anything, this is as reported in the article. A 20% increase in foam volume is certainly an _improvement_after the recommended rest of _1/2_hour. >>I NEVER said that yet higher temps do not or cannot contribute to head<< It sure sounds like you try to refute the reseach labs finding at every turn!! >> Just that the impact of a normal mashout on head is not obvious on observation<< I continuosly get the question, "How do you get that head retention?" it is certainly noticable to drinkers in my neighborhood. Roger A. stated, >>most homebrewers I know have trouble making even the simplest beers the same every time. << I recommend controlling mash/lauter temperatures to known standards and you state it doesn't matter cause your experiments show a variablility that you feel is acceptable. Maybe the rest of the homebrewers would like to maximize their results and eliminate the variability shown by your own experiments. Most brewers I know pay attention to small details like foam. Obviously you are happy with your beers, don't change a thing. It won't bother me a bit. But it wouldn't be proper to tell someone who wants to improve their extraction rate that temperature doesn't matter. _Your_ experiments show this; ensuring a 3 to 12 % variability. After 6 hours in the brewhouse I want my beer superlative, not just _normal_. I can buy _normal_beer in any bar. N.P. Lansing Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:20:30 -0400 From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com> Subject: glyco protein ?s Mike Rose asked, >>1) At the proper temps ( 170's F ) wouldn't the Glyco- protein reactions take place at the same rate in both the mash tun and the kettle? ( during the heating up stage )<< The article doesn't address this point specifically; it does mention an increase in foam active proteins of 20% in the finished beer after a 1/2 hour 71 C mash rest. Problems that come to mind are: you have removed the sweet wort from the protein source material, the grist, is that needed for proper glyco-protein formation? The interface between the sweet wort and the kettle at the heating surface is significantly hotter than the bulk of the kettle contents, would this be coagulating/denaturing the protein fractions before the glyco-protein agglomeration could occur? This can be noticed in the coagulated scum that floats to the surface of the wort before the boil starts. Just how much this detracts from glyco-protein production would be a guess. Also the concentration of the components would be about halved after the sparge, this would slow the reaction rate to require about an hour in the kettle resting compared to 1/2 hr. in the mash tun. My estimation is that a rest in the kettle would not be a helpful as we'd like. From lauter to the bottle drops the foam active proteins 40 to 50%, it would seem smart to start the kettle with as much glyco-proteins as possible; if you want to maximize head retention. Thanks for the thought provoking inquiry, Del Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:45:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Cooper <ccooper at a2607cc.msr.hp.com> Subject: suck/blow, Zymurgy content Greetings all! There is more suck/blow going on here than at a harmonica players convention! It is amazing that given a line like that the moles and trolls of the digest haven't come out in full force, I salute them for their restraint! My easy solution for siphons is to use a racking cane inserted through the center of one of those orange carboy caps (the kind with two tubes) and an air pump that was originally designed for the party pig (it looks like the kind of pump used with a blood pressure cuff at the doctor's office) plugged into the other port. Snap on the cap, give is a few pumps and the beer starts flowing! Dead simple! On another topic, I am glad that Zymurgy includes info on related fermentation topics (mead, cider, etc.). Zymurgy has definely had some great issues and a few that were a bit thin but I still look forward to each issue. I would like to see a bit more about intermediate level brewing (since that is the level I feel I am at) but also appreciate advanced and beginning info. I would like to encourage some of those who post here to think about and investigate the possiblities of submitting articles to Zymurgy! It is fun to set here on the digest day after day and speculate, postulate, and commiserate about the merits of various ideas, schemes and practices but quite a challenge to set down and formally prepare a statement that supports an opinion or theroy through actually documented procedure and testing. Preparing such a work helps to strengthen one's own understanding and if published in a recognize volume acts to place a stake in the ground from which the community as a whole may debate and move forward. Chris Cooper, Pine Haven Brewing (aka. Debbi's Kitchen) Commerce, Michigan Member, Ann Arbor Brewer's Guild (Approximately 25 miles from 0.0 Renerian) Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:02:29 -0500 From: Steve Stripling <steves1 at hiwaay.net> Subject: Re: Siphon Starting Well, if you were to ask any of my friends, they would tell you "as a homebrewer, Steve sucks!" And they'd be right. But I've done it both ways. If I'm using a carboy cap, I take a 2 liter soda bottle, stick a one-hole rubber stopper (#4 IIRC) in the opening, press that firmly to the open port in the carboy cap and squeeze. That's usually too much effort, so I prefer to suck, but i use the business in iodophor. I shake off the dreaded drop of iodophor, stick the small end into the tubing, and suck away. If I've misplaced the baster, I can make do with the body of a three piece airlock. Steve Stripling Huntsville, AL Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 21:25:57 +0200 From: "Hubert Hanghofer" <hhanghof at netbeer.co.at> Subject: Re: Glyco proteins questions Hi all, in HBF#3335 "Michael Rose" <maltandhops at msn.com> asks: > 1) At the proper temps ( 170's F ) wouldn't the Glyco- > protein reactions take place at the same rate in both the mash tun > and the kettle? ( during the heating up stage ) No! Glyco-proteins are initially insoluble protein-carbohydrate-compounds of high molecular weight (MW 10.000). They need to be degraded to some extent and thus released from the solid matrix (*in the mash tun*). It has been shown, that this is best done at temperatures above 70C to promote foam and mouthfeel. At lower temperatures glyco-proteins are released at a lower rate and / or seem to be broken down. Narziss recommends very long rests at 70-72C of up to one hour and more!! I recently read a short article on German Ales (Brauwelt #35/99, ...page 1568, if you read German) that called a rest at 75C "Vollmundigkeitsrast" which translates like "mouthfeel-rest". Unfortunately no timing was given in that reference. -- But in general, this may be one reason why German infusion step programs are very long (over 2 hours). ...Quick note to single temperature infusion mashers: Please note that the "mouthfeel-rest" is an additional step! - It's always preceded by a -more or less involved- (...depending on the brewmaster ;-) step infusion schedule. My humble opinion: Such a rest may or may not have an effect on your brew, though the effect may be very significant! -- Like everything protein-related, it much depends on the quality of your malt. Brewers can only "fine-tune" what has been given by the maltster. > 3) This naturally begs the question; Would a 175 F KETTLE rest have > any positive or negative implications? Probably nothing positive, but HSA on the negative side. ...as usual: hope this helps! Hubert HangHoFer doing looooong mash-schedules in Salzburg, Austria Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 16:23:15 -0400 From: "Eric R. Lande" <landeservices at juno.com> Subject: Suck or Blow In HBD #3334 Jay HUMMER asks should he suck or should he blow. Jay, this is me biting my tongue...ok, now my tongue is bleeding. Ok...I've caught my breath now and I'm over my witty response urge. For things like siphoning from the kettle to the fermenter I do suck, but not on the hose. I'll swish my hand in iodaphor, hold the hose with one end of my hand and suck on the other end of my hand. That way the hose never touches my mouth. I have also seen people use a short piece of smaller diameter hose to suck on and then remove it before letting the siphon flow. If I am siphoning from a carboy I use a carboy cap with a racking cane in it. But in stead of blowing with my mouth, I use a little CO2 pressure. This not only removes the possibility of contamination from the mouth, but if you keep the whole system closed you can guard against airborne contaminants also. I read an article about it on line but I can't remember where it was (it may have been Brewing Techniques web site). Good luck. Eric Lande Doylestown, PA Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 19:48:22 -0500 From: hal <hwarrick at springnet1.com> Subject: Digital therm. for brewing Hey all, Just got back from LOWE'S, roaming through the greenhouse area and there in with the temp. probes was a digital therm. with a SS probe with 3' of SS braided cable going to a nice set up, comes with a timer to count down those min. of mashing. All for $12.oo. Not bad !!! Hal Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 10:38:36 +1000 From: Gil Drury <drury at zip.com.au> Subject: Re: Siphon Sucking Following is the first hit on Google.com for "siphon hose": http://www.baproducts.com/siphon.htm I've been using one of these for years for transferring from fermentor to secondary and from secondary to keg. Sanitise by running boiling water through. Bought mine at an agricultural show. OTOH when siphoning wort from boiler to whirlpool I use reinforced tubing and "suck", figuring the 90C wort temp will minimise the risk of bugs - plus the fact I pitch 200ml of yeast "paste" for a 60+ litre batch - so far so good. Cheers, Gil Drury Sydney, Australia. Return to table of contents
[Prev HBD] [Index] [Next HBD] [Back]
HTML-ized on 05/27/00, by HBD2HTML version 1.2 by K.F.L.
webmaster at hbd.org, KFL, 10/9/96