---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  FW: FW: Dr. Cone ("Rob Moline")
  Re: Brix, Balling, and Plato (Seth Goodman)
  Plastic bottles ("Darren Robey")
  Champagne Corker Needed Urgently (phil sides jr)
  Carboy Caps (Epic8383)
  Bar Fridge (Ant Hayes)
  The Jethro Gump Report ("Rob Moline")
  I suck, and I'm from Michigan (Mike Foster)
  AHA/Zymurgy (Bill_Rehm)
  cider/mead/homebrew competitions ("Houseman, David L")
  S.A. Boston Lager Hops (Bob Hall)
  Where has Brian Rezac gone? (VS Central)" <SIER1 at Aerial1.com>
  maris otter ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Exploding PET bottles ("Dave Edwards")
  no sucking anymore and honey issue ("Czerpak, Pete")
  RE: To suck or not to suc. Cry babies (LaBorde, Ronald)
  AHA BOA Election Post ("Gary Glass")
  Re: PET Bottles (Jim Adwell)
  yeast culturing questions ("Dalibor Jurina")
  Mash-out/foam rest ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  glyco protein ?s ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  suck/blow, Zymurgy content (Chris Cooper)
  Re: Siphon Starting (Steve Stripling)
  Re: Glyco proteins questions ("Hubert Hanghofer")
  Suck or Blow ("Eric R. Lande")
  Digital therm. for brewing (hal)
  Re: Siphon Sucking (Gil Drury)


* Don't miss the 2000 AHA NHC in Livonia, MI 
* 6/22 through 6/24 http://hbd.org/miy2k

* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 21:30:28 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net>
Subject: FW: FW: Dr. Cone

- -----Original Message-----
From: Clayton Cone
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 3:20 PM
To: Rob Moline
Subject: Re: FW: Dr. Cone


Rob,
As you know I returned a few days ago from a fabulous three week trip to
Europe: Munich, Salzburg, Vienna, Krems, Budapest, Gyongyos, Prague and
Berlin. Lots of great beer and wine.  

I just now had a chance to read the letters of appreciation from the HBD
readers.  I am overwhelmed by their comments.  It made all the sweating
that I did to give them good answers worth it.

If you can, please let them know that I appreciate their comments.

Clayton Cone








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Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 17:43:06 -0400
From: Seth Goodman <sethgoodman at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Brix, Balling, and Plato

In HBD #3332, Frank Tutzauer asks:

>3. Pronunciation. Is it pronounced BREE, as in Grand Prix, or
>is it BRICKS as in, well, bricks?

It is the latter -  pronounced BRICKS.

HTH,

Seth Goodman



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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:58:57 +1000
From: "Darren Robey" <drobey at awb.com.au>
Subject: Plastic bottles



Jim Adwell said:

>Did I mention that PET has a burst strength of 8000 psi per mil of
>thickness?  Not likely you can get yeast to develop that kind of pressure,
>huh?  And I bet you can't get a PET bottle to break no matter how hard you
>throw it at something.   And...


Just had to comment on this one.

When I was a young lad I used to make some sort of ginger beer. Made with lost
of sugar, ginger etc and (forbid it) bread yeast. What a gingery yeasty flavour
that had!

Anyhow, I to used to bottle in PET after seeing a glass one blow up a few years
before. No injuries thankfully but wow what a bang.  Anyhow, I did see one split
one day. Not blow the cap off, it split right down the side. I heard a pop in
the shed and went out to investigate. Well there was a sticky ginger mess
everywhere BUT no glass!!! Just hose it out and all was cleaned up.

No this was probable due to a fault in the bottle rather than making the sort of
pressure you talk about above, but the bottles were darn hard.

As a side point, these were supposed to be non alcoholic soda type drinks, but I
did leave a few for some months and they became a lot dryer and a few young lads
at least thought we got drunk on it!!!
By now

Darren





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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 01:00:26 -0400
From: phil sides jr <psides at technologist.com>
Subject: Champagne Corker Needed Urgently

Apparently champagne corkers were once available to the homebrew trade
but are no longer.  Does anyone know a source for champagne corkers?
How about somone with a used one you would like to convert to cash?

Phil Sides, Jr.
Concord, NH
- --
F u cn rd ths u cnt spl wrth a dm!




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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 01:51:04 EDT
From: Epic8383 at aol.com
Subject: Carboy Caps

     Hiya,
   Some folks were lamenting their infected beers caused by blowing into the 
carboy cap, here's what I do...
   1) Put the racking cane just barely through the cap and fasten it to the 
neck of the carboy.
   2) Put the outflow end into the bottom of the recieving vessel.
   3) Hook up CO2 bottle to carboy cap and barely crack open the valve, you 
are now purging air from the racking cane and receiving vessel in one shot.
   4) After 10-15 seconds, slowly push the racking cane down into the beer, 
adjust CO2 pressure to fill racking cane.
   5) As soon as flow is flowin', unhook CO2 line and then shut it off.
   6) Sit back, have a brew, and admire what a neat gizmo the carboy cap is.
  It's a good idea to hold the cap on with one hand as you're applying CO2, 
just in case you hit it with too much pressure or it doesn't fit the neck too 
snugly :^o
  I'm gonna try this to filter my kolsh next week, probably with a worm drive 
clamp lightly snug around the base of the cap for a good seal, I think I can 
finnese the pressure enough to drive the beer, yet not blow off the cap...
  Will post results-Gus Rappold


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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:19:11 +0200
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: Bar Fridge

Graham Sanders, regarding Dorm/Bar fridges down under said,"

Our bar fridges just hold the soft drinks,
nothing more.  We all have the big buggers out back, full of grog."; 

showing that South Africa has something else in common with Oz beyond Tiaan
Strauss.

In SA we have three categories of fridge:

1. Bar Fridge - for soft drinks (kept under the bar)
2. Beer Fridge - for wine and malt, hard tack (kept in the garage)
3. The Wife's Fridge - for other stuff.

Young men usually acquire fridges in that order - women in the reverse.

Ant Hayes


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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 01:35:10 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Report

			The Jethro Gump Report

AHA Elections...
	The votes are in...the tallying is done....and the results are posted....
	And I wish a hearty Congratulations to the new members of the Board!
	Welcome to the trying satisfaction of making an effort! Many folks banch
and belch about what is...and what could never be...but some actually work
for the benefit of others....often with no recognition...nor..sometimes
results.....
	But, the effort is what counts...and your efforts towards enhancing brewing
will be appreciated by at least one person...me! Seriously, I look forward
to having your input. You represent the wishes of our members for
leadership...
	So, I welcome each and everyone of you...and look forward to chewing the
cud...and maybe hoisting a brew with you in Detroit next month!
	Personally, as a nominee of more than one of the candidates, I am proud of
all of them, for they demonstrate the wishes of the Board for valued
advice...and ultimately the members for representation.....and reflect those
desires for input from a varied cross-section of geographical...and
philosophical directions for our organization....
	Whose entire purpose, as I see it...is to enhance the science...the
art....and most especially, the cameraderie (the sport) of the brewing
experience.....
	It is unfortunate that all of the nominees couldn't have a place on the
Board, for they are all fine candidates, with something of substance to
offer the homebrewing community, as they have always done in the past...but
their names are always up for nomination in the next round of voting.....

Zymurgy Mead Issue.....
	I welcomed this issue....as it addressed facts unknown to me...and as mead
has always been at the side of my efforts...never made by me, but always on
the hands of my many friends in the homebrewing and professional world...I
learned a lot....
	And Lord knows, I could always learn more.....

Scholarship Drawing Imminent!
	The drawing for the Lallemand Scholarship will be held at the NHC in
Detroit next month.....a full 2 week Short Course at the oldest brewing
school in the US, the Siebel Institute....worth 2500 bucks...plus another
thousand dollars for housing and travel.....
	The Scholarship drawing is open to all members of the AHA, who tender an
entry for the drawing...
	Existing members can enter by phone...1-303-447-0816..

	Then again, New members...or anyone considering that the odds of winning
this...(currently less than 700 folks are in the drawing)....are better than
a lottery ticket...and the prize is 2 weeks in Beer Heaven..
(Seriously...just ask Jim Liddil)... can get a ticket in the drawing by
calling 1-888-UCAN-BREW...and join the AHA for 33 bucks...and get an entry
in the drawing.....
	If you are a member...you can get extra entries in the Scholarship drawing
by having any other folks that are new members refer you as their sponsor!
(One enterprising bloke has at least 7 entries, I hear...as a result of
signing up new members..!)

	Enough banch...this is more than likely the best chance ever offered for
genuine beer dreams to come true.....I would enter myself, but am precluded
from doing so by some rules I helped to write!

Cheers!
Jethro Gump (Who Has been To Dapto...and Woollongong!)

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"

Rob Moline
AHA
AHA BOA
IBS
MBAA
Siebel Alumni
Brew Rat
Ames Brewers League
Lallemand
515-268-1836 home
515-450-0243 cell
brewer at isunet.net
jethro at isunet.net



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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 05:48:52 -0400
From: Mike Foster <mike at asyoulikeit.org>
Subject: I suck, and I'm from Michigan

I swallow, too...
I've never had any contamination problems with suck-starting my siphions,
and it's a good opportunity to sample the beer between primary and 
secondary to see how things are coming along.

Somebody mentioned the increased chance of contamination suck-siphoning
from the boiling kettle to the primary... Okay, I can see worrying about
that! Why would anyone siphon at this stage? I simply pour the beer from 
kettle to bucket. Aerates the wort nicely. Yeasties like that.

 ...and I never, ever suck when I'm sick... That's just asking for trouble!

On a side note, I've noticed lately all the Michigan brewers posting to 
the digest. Good to know I'm surrounded by brewers here in the Great 
Lakes State!

- -- 
Wolfger, in Mt. Clemens, MI
http://www.asyoulikeit.org/wolfger

Let me tell you the secret that has led me to my goal. 
My strength lies solely in my tenacity. 
- -- Louis Pasteur


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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 07:25:42 -0500
From: Bill_Rehm at eFunds.Com
Subject: AHA/Zymurgy

This whole AHA/Zymurgy discussion is nuts!  If the magazine sucks that bad
why do you keep getting it?  You all seem to know more than they do about
running a large scale home brewing magazine and organization.  I agree that
BT may have been a better magazine, but hey it's gone now (why it didn't
survive and Zymurgy does I don't know?).  Just so you all know what my
point of view is, I don't do mead (that's my wifes cup of tea), but I do
use honey in many of the beers I brew.

So just relax, where I am $33 will hardly get you 2 cases of Miller and a
bag of corn chips!



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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:59:39 -0400
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: cider/mead/homebrew competitions

Dick Dunn says that:  "Part of my opinion here is that I've never seen cider
categories or judging
in a homebrew competition that were within a boarding-house reach of being
able to grab the long hairs of a clue.  The AHA competition categories (the
last I checked) had no relation to reality-as-we-know-it...they seemed, at
best, to represent one slightly-besotted view of cider from New England in
the US."  

I beg to differ.  While certainly not every competition will have mead and
cider categories and they certainly won't have experienced judges for these
entries, I've judged in a number of competitions where the mead and cider
expertise was excellent.  A cider won the first Buzz Off competition, but
what did a bunch of us local judges know?  That same cider won Cider Maker
of the year for its makers that same year, so I guess we did know something.
One of the judges, Nick Funnel, was an English brewer so that did help ;-)
in seeing that this was an excellent cider.   

And how will judges gain experience and knowledge about ciders and meads
without the experience of judging?  Limit all cider judging to a few
competitions in specific geographies?  Drink them, make them, judge them;
hopefully read and study as well.  

While I cannot comment about the older AHA competition categories, Dick, as
the expert, was consulted for his input for the cider (maybe mead too, but I
forget) categories for the new BJCP and AHA style guide.  

David Houseman 


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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:12:15 -0700
From: Bob Hall <nap_aca_bh at nwoca.org>
Subject: S.A. Boston Lager Hops

Need some information on Sam Adam's Boston Lager. I love the hop profile
(read that only noble hops are used) and would appreciate any insight on
the types, amounts, IBUs, hopping schedule, etc? Tastes to me as if it's
been dry hopped?

Hopping for the best,
Bob

Bob Hall, Technology Director
Napoleon Area Schools
Napoleon, OH   43545



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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:27:16 -0400
From: "Sieben, Richard (VS Central)" <SIER1 at Aerial1.com>
Subject: Where has Brian Rezac gone?

I found out yesterday that Brian Rezac is no longer with Five Star.  Does
anyone know what happened to him?

Rich Sieben
Island Lake, IL


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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:13:59 -0400
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: maris otter

A few days ago I asked a question about maris Otter.  I have found that
there are definitely a few suppliers of it.  Muntons, Hugh Baird, Beestons,
and i think that may be all that I have found for US available varieties.  

Could anybody comment on their happiness with any of them?  I got muntons
but only cause I didn't realize there were other brands to try for - I would
have asked for Hugh Baird if I had known since I seem to recall more folks
using this one.  people refer to using maris otter in a number of HBD posted
recipes - which one did you use, did you like it, how consistant is it??

normally i have used muntons 2-row or briess 2 row and occasionally
weyermanns munich when I need more malt so this is a change for me.  

I'm gonna break in the new mash tun and grain mill next week on a test batch
of American style browne ale since they're pretty hard to screw up even if
extraction isn't quite where I plan it at.  I'm excited to move out of the
oven mash technology too with the Gott. No more Zapap and grain bag for
allgrain for me.  perhaps I'll donate it to a needy brewer... Getting boils
off the stovetop is next since I've been thinking about it for 2 yrs now.

Thanks for any help,
Pete czerpak
albany, NY

pete.czerpak at siigroup.com


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Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 00:02:33 +0930
From: "Dave Edwards" <eddiedb at senet.com.au>
Subject: Exploding PET bottles



Jim Adwell wrote:
| Did I mention that PET has a burst strength of 8000 psi per mil of
| thickness?  Not likely you can get yeast to develop that kind of pressure,
| huh?  And I bet you can't get a PET bottle to break no matter how hard you
| throw it at something.

While the strength of PET bottles may be true on paper, it is not quite so
true in real life. What I refer to is that a fellow brewer mate of mine here
in Oz likes to brew cider. He also likes to bottle it in PET bottles, which
he stores in a cupboard next to his glass bottles.

What I'm getting at is that he made a bad batch and some exploded, not just
one by the way. One, which was stored on a high shelf, exploded with such
power that it broke in half, and the top part embedded itself into the
ceiling. Another, which was stored in the cupboard, blew open the cupboard
door, broke about half a dozen glass bottles and projected pieces of glass
accross the room, some 7 metres.

The above mentioned examples are not healthy situations, and I would just
advise anyone who bottles in PET to be careful, they are NOT indestructable.

Cheers,
Dave.




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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 10:36:16 -0400
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: no sucking anymore and honey issue

On the carboy siphon issue, I have been using the fill the siphon hose with
water to start the siphon method for the last few years.  I used to be a
sucker then progressed to a gargle with vodka sucker in my Boulder, CO days,
and now use the fill the hose method.  Can't say I had too many problems
with any of them that have could be contributed to sanitation problems.  I
have lost maybe 4 batches total ever and 3 were in my first 2 years.
Incidently, I did get my stuff from paul Gatza's store when I lived there
and he was always happy to talk beer, etc. You can use the orange rubber top
for the carboy with 2 holes as a siphon starter if you have a spare CO2 line
of your keg system. make sure to lower the pressure although I would hope
that the rubber top would blow off the carboy before it exploded into nice
glass scards. or ferment in cornies and just transfer under pressure with no
change of explosion. 

anyways, about the honey issue.  I am all for it, even if it covered alot of
mead, as long as it doesn't appear too frequently (maybe every 3-5 years or
something) and always get different people to write the articles and also
make sure they aren't using paragraphs from previous articles too. its good
to educate yourself in other beverages.  make ales, make lagers, make
belgians (maybe even make a CAP  ;)   ).  drink a nice glass of Merlot once
in a while or drink a nice mead or cider for variety and experiment.  even
try brewing them for a challenge or change. think about sake for a major
change (haven't tried this myself). 

i am a 6 yr brewer now (joined AHA 2 yrs ago), been making one or two wines
a year (since the SO tends to like wine more than beer- although I have
convinced her that a 60 IBU IPA is a thing of beauty as are most well made
barley wines), and even attempted a mead about 6 weeks ago.  i am glad that
someone (BJCP and AHA) has supported production of mead for competitions
since its not large enough to really support itself.

Thanks for listening.

Brew lots and brew hoppy,
Pete Czerpak
albany, NY


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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 09:36:54 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: To suck or not to suc. Cry babies

It seems as though there exists many opinions and methods regarding this
topic.

After reading all the various methods I thought I would throw one more on
the tarmac.

I have in the past used sucking, Iodaphor in the hose, turkey baster, and
have had varying results with every method.  I have finally decided on the
following:

	* I use a 3/8 od by 3/36 id vinyl hose about 5 or 6 feet long.  I
put the small  end cap from a racking cane onto the end of the tubing.  Now
I do not have that problem with the bubble appearing at the racking cane
junction because I have no racking cane.  The 3/8 od tubing is placed as far
down as I can get it to the bottom.

This method is fairly slow because of the 3/16 id.  I do not consider this a
problem, but an advantage.  When racking I get VERY little agitation and
yeast pull-up.  It is a compromise because it takes longer - about 20
minutes, but I look at it as more time to have fun.  Because of the small
volume inside the 3/16 id hose, a turkey baster works with one suck.  With
the racking cane and tubing setup, the baster just could not pull the liquid
far enough to work and this was very cumbersome.

If I want to suck, I place a rubber stopper part way over the output end and
suck on it and when flow starts, I pull off the stopper.
I have finally built a sampling jar with two hose barbs in the cover of a
Mason jar.  I can then suck on a foot long tube on one barb and the liquid
enters the jar.  After I have my sample (to get test results), I pull the
hose off and continue racking.

I watch the hose because it curves, and when near the bottom, I tilt the
carboy and place the hose and cap at the deepest spot, I get just about all
the liquid out and almost nothing else because of the slow speed.

- ---------

So many cry babies about Mead in Zymurgy.  I do not subscribe, but jeez, get
over it.  You'll live!!!!

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu
http://hbd.org/rlaborde



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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 08:46:51 -0600
From: "Gary Glass" <gary at aob.org>
Subject: AHA BOA Election Post

Jim Liddil writes:

>Now it is great to read on the HBD (a non AHA entity) about the new BofA
>advisors.  I am wondering why members could not have been notified via
>techtalk...

The same post that went to the HBD on the new BOA members went to both
versions of techtalk (vol.00-0424pm) the evening before it appeared in the
HBD.

Cheers,
Gary
- -------------------------
Gary Glass, Administrator
American Homebrewers Association
736 Pearl Street
PO Box 1679
Boulder, CO 80306-1679
U.S.A.
Voice: (303) 447-0816 x 121
Fax: (303) 447-2825
Email: gary at aob.org
Web: http://www.beertown.org



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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:11:47 -0400
From: Jim Adwell <jimala at apical.com>
Subject: Re: PET Bottles


Karl D. Loeffler wrote:
>Hi Jim,
>
>Read your post on the HBD today and do have a point to make.  PET
>bottles can and will explode.  I don't think they will explode under 
>the pressures that are induced by carbonated beer, but one never
>knows does he. 
>
>Why do I say they can explode then?  I was at an R/C airplane meet 
>one day and watched an incredible looking 1/4 scale R/C plane 
>explode in mid-air.  QUITE impressive, although the owner of this 
>$3000+ plane was crying.  What happened?  The PET bottle he used 
>to contain the compressed air to run his landing gear retracts 
>exploded.  He only pumped the bottle pressure to 75PSI so how he 
>was wondering how it could possibly explode with what he knew about 
>the strength of these things.  Well, what happens is that over time 
>and use the burst pressure of PET bottles drops.  He had used this 
>bottle probably a hundred times.  The last time was just too much 
>for it.

Plastic Bottle Man responds:

There's PET bottles and then there's those bottled water bottles that look
like PET but aren't designed for pressure.  Also PET can be weakened by
high temperatures; the maximum usable temperature is around 140F. And they
don't like below freezing temperatures much either.  They should NOT be
heat sterilized, either wet or dry.  Strong acids and strong oxidising
agents will cause them to fail.  I personally have over-carbonated a few
bottles to the point where I couldn't press the sides in at all, and the
top was almost impossible to twist off.  I have also exploded a few glass
bottles, and I am thankful I wasn't near them when they went off.  It is
also possible that the compressed air bottle you mention had been abraded
or otherwise damaged and failed because of that.   And if one of my PET
bottles does explode, I won't be picking glass shards out of everything,
including me.

Some info about gas permiability:

Permeability of PET
  (cc/100 in2 /mil/day/atm)

N2       .8
O2       5
CO2    15 

for comparison, high-density polyethylene:

Permeability of HDPE
  (cc/100 in2 /mil/day/atm)

N2      42
O2      185
CO2   580

The figures for glass would be zero, of course.
These figures are from the Wheaton Scientific web site:

http://www.wheatonsci.com/html/fm/PlasticResins.html

Cheers, Jim

Jim's Brewery Pages:
http://home.ptd.net/~jimala/brewery/


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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 17:02:15 +0200
From: "Dalibor Jurina" <dalibor.jurina at ri.tel.hr>
Subject: yeast culturing questions

In the book "Brew ware" I have found advises for
yeast culturing but since my English is, well not so good,
some phrases are not understandable to me, so
please an explanation would be more than appreciated.

 - ... sanitize the container, then flame the mouth of the starter vessel
with a butane lighter... (how to flame the mouth of the starter)?
 - refrigerate yeast culture ( refrigerate is under 32 F or above)?
 - gelatinized medium or agar (what is agar)?
 - to make a starter (for 5 gal batch) from slants I need to make a
microstarter 75 ml and then after few days and then pour the microstarter
to starter (500 ml). The question is, if I want to make a starter for 50 gal
batch
 I simple make pour 500 ml starter in larger vessel with 1,5 gal wort
and make "macro starter" or not?

Thanks to all who contribute in HBD for helping us potential homebrewers

Dalibor



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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:20:17 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: Mash-out/foam rest

Steve,
        >>>   I imagine the activity about doubles through the 18 degree F
 of the[...]

>>I thought you would say this - it is a common misunderstanding.
>>The short answer is that you're half-right, you've ignored the
>>denaturing rate temp dependence and must perform the integral
>>to understand what is really happening. 

Though I had addressed the denaturing half-life in that paragraph.
The intrinsic rate doubles at the temps mentioned, that some BA is
denatured at the same time doesn't affect the rate at which the 
enzymes make each cleavage. The difference in fermentability comes
not from the denaturing of BA but from the also increased action of
AA. Given a hypothetic mash with unlimited starch and 1 beta amylase
molecule and one Alpha molecule. As the mash commences, the BA
can only cleave one maltose from a reducing end then move to the
next available site. Simultaneously the AA makes 1 cleavage and moves
on to the next site. The AA has now created 2 additional sites to burden
the BA. _If_ the 2 enzymes worked at the same rate (cleaves/minute)
it would only take 4 iterations before there was 16 additional sites for
the
BA to reduce. Understood that not all cleavages by the AA would strictly
produce 2 additional reducing ends; but this points to the reason for less
fermentability in a high temp mash. AA  action overwhelms the ability
of BA to keep up and reduce every A-limit dextrine further. If a mash was
held at 158 for 1/2 hour then like I said there is still 25% of the BA
remaining
active the only thing that can happen is the BA will go on creating
maltose.
After 15 more minutes there is still 12.5% of the original BA available,
still
producing maltose.

>>It seems to say that if you mash very thin (~2qt/lb) and pulverize the
p*ss out of your malt and [like other congress mashes] perform no pH
correction. <<
   1.5 quarts/lb is 3:1, after a boiling water infusion to hit mash-out
this
would be 4:1, not out of the realm of real life mash tuns. To insure
repeatablity of the experiment from one lab to the other of course
pulverizing to flour is necessary negate differences
in the labs mills and malt kernel size to ensure predicted results.
The mash liquor had 150g/L calcium, this should correct mash
pH to normal levels.

>>Then after 20' at 60C & 90' at 68C & 90' at 71C gets you
125ppm of critical protein, then for an outlandish 90' long at 75C mashout
you only get another 20ppm.<<

   repeating.... Findings-foam active proteins increased in each mash at
the 30                  minute interval. 68C mash yielding 85 mg/L,
                                 71C mash yielding 125mg/L,
                                 75C mash yielding 145mg/L
 I never mentioned the 90 minute levels. But since you brought it up;
 the levels for 90 min. at 75C were 190mg/L. Over twice the foam
active proteins of the 68C 1/2 hour rest.
 After 1/2 hour at 68 C or 71 or 75
 the levels of foam-active glyco-proteins were measured: 85/145=58% 
increase of foam + glyco-proteins; significant I would say.  

>>What you have argued above is that a rather non-standard mash
and a protracted 1.5 hour mashout<<
   Nope, 1/2 hour will do it. 

>>1/ How much of this protein fraction is necessary for entirely normal
    levels of foam ?<<
   What is "normal" to you is the question. My original statement was a
mash-out
_improves_foam stand. Doubling the foam active proteins should have
significant effect on a "normal" foam-stand.

>>How
  do we know the same proteins wouldn't be released given the last
  THREE HOURS at 68C rather than 71C and 75C ?<<
    You need to see the graph of the results, but the rise in proteins at
68C
is about 10mg/l from the 30 minute sample to the 90 minute sample.
The rise in the 75C samples is 35mg/L over the 90 minute period.
Over three times the G-P production in the 75C mash vs 68C mash.

>>You've written that my experimental beers couldn't have had
normal level of head (tho'  I experienced it)  - and your proof is an
experiment which cannot be compared to normal brewing practice. <<
   Never said your beers had poor head, just stated that a high temperature
mash-out (72-74C) could improve it; if you took that as slamming your beer
you misunderstood. If people aren't mashing out then they are indeed
not utilizing the proteins available to produce a lasting head and clinging
lace. There is nothing abnormal with the mash in the experiment cited.
4:1 water/grist same as a normal mash with a boiling water infusion.
150 ppm Ca++ to cause proper mash acidification. And since many
breweries are going to mash-filters, grinding the piss out of the malt is
now quite normal. 

>> No source
calls 71C mashout.<<
  Two professional brewers (1 Weihenstephen graduate) and a malster
I spoke to call it mash out. 

>>How
  do we know the same proteins wouldn't be released given the last
  THREE HOURS at 68C rather than 71C and 75C ?<<
Weren't you complaining that the added 1/2 hour was too much?
now you suggest 3 hours??? is that what they call specious?

>>You've written that my experimental beers couldn't have had
normal level of head (tho'  I experienced it) <<
  Never said your beers didn't have a normal head, said this rest profile
could _improve_head retention. 
>> - and your proof is an
experiment which cannot be compared to normal brewing practice.<<
  I see, your basement brewery is a more significant source of brewing
technology than the Beer Research Institute, Suntory Ltd.

>>  Then
you assume that more of this protein fraction appearing above 70C (and
beyond hours 2, 3, & 4 of the mash!) means that stopping the mash at 70C
would not have produced normal head without basis<<
  I didn't not _assume_anything, this is as reported in the article.
A 20% increase in foam volume is certainly an _improvement_after
the recommended rest of _1/2_hour. 

>>I NEVER said that yet higher
temps do not or cannot contribute to head<<
  It sure sounds like you try to refute the reseach labs finding at every
turn!!

>> Just that the impact of a
normal mashout on head is not obvious on observation<<
   I continuosly get the question, "How do you get that head retention?"
it is certainly noticable to drinkers in my neighborhood.

Roger A. stated, >>most homebrewers I know have 
     trouble making even the simplest beers the same every time.  <<

I recommend controlling mash/lauter temperatures to known standards
and you state it doesn't matter cause your experiments show a variablility
that you feel is acceptable. Maybe the rest of the homebrewers would like
to maximize their results and eliminate the variability shown by your own
experiments. Most brewers I know pay attention to small details like foam.
Obviously you are happy with your beers, don't change a thing. It won't
bother me a bit. But it wouldn't be proper to tell someone who wants
to improve their extraction rate that temperature doesn't matter. _Your_
experiments show this; ensuring a 3 to 12 % variability. 
 After 6 hours in the brewhouse I want my beer superlative, not just
_normal_. I can buy _normal_beer in any bar.


N.P. Lansing
  








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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 11:20:30 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: glyco protein ?s

Mike Rose asked, 
>>1) At the proper temps ( 170's F ) wouldn't the Glyco-
protein reactions take place at the same rate in both the mash tun
and the kettle? ( during the heating up stage )<<

The article doesn't address this point specifically; it does mention
an increase in foam active proteins of 20% in the finished beer
after a 1/2 hour 71 C mash rest. Problems that come to mind are:
you have removed the sweet wort from the protein source material,
the grist, is that needed for proper glyco-protein formation? The
interface between the sweet wort and the kettle at the heating surface
is significantly hotter than the bulk of the kettle contents, would this be
coagulating/denaturing the protein fractions before the glyco-protein
agglomeration could occur? This can be noticed in the coagulated
scum that floats to the surface of the wort before the boil starts. Just
how much this detracts from glyco-protein production would be a guess.
Also the concentration of the components would be about halved after
the sparge, this would slow the reaction rate to require about an hour
in the kettle resting compared to 1/2 hr. in the mash tun.
  My estimation is that a rest in the kettle would not be a helpful as we'd
like. From lauter to the bottle drops the foam active proteins 40 to 50%,
it would seem smart to start the kettle with as much glyco-proteins as
possible; if you want to maximize head retention.

  Thanks for the thought provoking inquiry,
         Del
  

  





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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 13:45:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chris Cooper <ccooper at a2607cc.msr.hp.com>
Subject: suck/blow, Zymurgy content

Greetings all!  There is more suck/blow going on here than at a
harmonica players convention!  It is amazing that given a line like
that the moles and trolls of the digest haven't come out in full
force, I salute them for their restraint!   

My easy solution for siphons is to use a racking cane inserted
through the center of one of those orange carboy caps (the kind
with two tubes) and an air pump that was originally designed for
the party pig (it looks like the kind of pump used with a blood
pressure cuff at the doctor's office) plugged into the other port.
Snap on the cap, give is a few pumps and the beer starts flowing!
Dead simple!  

On another topic, I am glad that Zymurgy includes info on related
fermentation topics (mead, cider, etc.).   Zymurgy has definely had
some great issues and a few that were a bit thin but I still look 
forward to each issue.   I would like to see a bit more about 
intermediate level brewing (since that is the level I feel I am at) 
but also appreciate advanced and beginning info.               

I would like to encourage some of those who post here to think about
and investigate the possiblities of submitting articles to Zymurgy!
It is fun to set here on the digest day after day and speculate,
postulate,  and commiserate about the merits of various ideas, schemes
and practices but quite a challenge to set down and formally prepare 
a statement that supports an opinion or theroy through actually documented
procedure and testing.  Preparing such a work helps to strengthen one's
own understanding and if published in a recognize volume acts to place
a stake in the ground from which the community as a whole may debate and
move forward.              


Chris Cooper, Pine Haven Brewing (aka. Debbi's Kitchen) 
Commerce, Michigan    Member, Ann Arbor Brewer's Guild
(Approximately 25 miles from 0.0 Renerian)



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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 14:02:29 -0500
From: Steve Stripling <steves1 at hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: Siphon Starting

Well, if you were to ask any of my friends, they would tell you "as a
homebrewer, Steve sucks!" And they'd be right. But I've done it both ways.

If I'm using a carboy cap, I take a 2 liter soda bottle, stick a one-hole
rubber stopper (#4 IIRC) in the opening, press that firmly to the open port
in the carboy cap and squeeze.

That's usually too much effort, so I prefer to suck, but i use the business
in iodophor. I shake off the dreaded drop of iodophor, stick the small end
into the tubing, and suck away. If I've misplaced the baster, I can make do
with the body of a three piece airlock.

Steve Stripling
Huntsville, AL



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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 21:25:57 +0200
From: "Hubert Hanghofer" <hhanghof at netbeer.co.at>
Subject: Re: Glyco proteins questions

Hi all,

in HBF#3335 "Michael Rose" <maltandhops at msn.com> asks:

> 1) At the proper temps ( 170's F ) wouldn't the Glyco-
> protein reactions take place at the same rate in both the mash tun
> and the kettle? ( during the heating up stage )

No! Glyco-proteins are initially insoluble protein-carbohydrate-compounds 
of high molecular weight (MW 10.000). They need to be degraded to some 
extent and thus released from the solid matrix (*in the mash tun*). It has 
been shown, that this is best done at temperatures above 70C to promote 
foam and mouthfeel. At lower temperatures glyco-proteins are released at a 
lower rate and / or seem to be broken down.

Narziss recommends very long rests  at 70-72C of up to one hour and more!! I 
recently read a short article on German Ales (Brauwelt #35/99, ...page 
1568, if you read German) that called a rest at 75C "Vollmundigkeitsrast" 
which translates like "mouthfeel-rest". Unfortunately no timing was given 
in that reference. -- But in general, this may be one reason why German 
infusion step programs are very long (over 2 hours).

 ...Quick note to single temperature infusion mashers:
Please note that the "mouthfeel-rest" is an additional step! - It's always 
preceded by a -more or less involved- (...depending on the brewmaster ;-) 
step infusion schedule.

My humble opinion:
Such a rest may or may not have an effect on your brew, though the effect 
may be very significant! -- Like everything protein-related, it much 
depends on the quality of your malt. Brewers can only "fine-tune" what has 
been given by the maltster.

> 3) This naturally begs the question; Would a 175 F KETTLE rest have 
> any positive or negative implications?

Probably nothing positive, but HSA on the negative side.



 ...as usual: hope this helps!

Hubert HangHoFer

doing looooong mash-schedules in Salzburg, Austria


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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 16:23:15 -0400
From: "Eric R. Lande" <landeservices at juno.com>
Subject: Suck or Blow

In HBD #3334 Jay HUMMER asks should he suck or should he blow.  Jay, this
is me biting my tongue...ok, now my tongue is bleeding.  

Ok...I've caught my breath now and I'm over my witty response urge.  For
things like siphoning from the kettle to the fermenter I do suck, but not
on the hose.  I'll swish my hand in iodaphor, hold the hose with one end
of my hand and suck on the other end of my hand.  That way the hose never
touches my mouth.  I have also seen people use a short piece of smaller
diameter hose to suck on and then remove it before letting the siphon
flow.  If I am siphoning from a carboy I use a carboy cap with a racking
cane in it.  But in stead of blowing with my mouth, I use a little CO2
pressure.  This not only removes the possibility of contamination from
the mouth, but if you keep the whole system closed you can guard against
airborne contaminants also.  I read an article about it on line but I
can't remember where it was (it may have been Brewing Techniques web
site).  Good luck.


Eric Lande
Doylestown, PA


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Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 19:48:22 -0500
From: hal <hwarrick at springnet1.com>
Subject: Digital therm. for brewing

Hey all,
    Just got back from LOWE'S, roaming
through the greenhouse area and there in with
the temp. probes was a digital therm. with a
SS probe with 3' of SS braided cable going
to a nice set up, comes with a timer to count
down those min. of mashing. All for $12.oo.
Not bad !!!
        Hal



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Date: Sat, 27 May 2000 10:38:36 +1000
From: Gil Drury <drury at zip.com.au>
Subject: Re: Siphon Sucking

Following is the first hit on Google.com for "siphon hose":

http://www.baproducts.com/siphon.htm

I've been using one of these for years for transferring from
fermentor to secondary and from secondary to keg. Sanitise by
running boiling water through.

Bought mine at an agricultural show.

OTOH when siphoning wort from boiler to whirlpool I use reinforced
tubing and "suck", figuring the 90C wort temp will minimise the
risk of bugs - plus the fact I pitch 200ml of yeast "paste" for a 
60+ litre batch - so far so good.

Cheers,

Gil Drury

Sydney, Australia.


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