---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  re: mash pH ("Stephen Alexander")
  Re: Steve Lanes Stuck Mashes ("J. Kish")
  re: pseudo-saaz ("Stephen Alexander")
  my lord... (Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative)
  Fosters ("Richard Pass")
  Homebrew Tri-Nations? (Ant Hayes)
  Dirty play by SAB ("Braam Greyling")
  Beer on airplanes ("Fred L. Johnson")
  Hop Scale (Hop_Head)
  Water analysis help ("Bob Opalko")
  Simple fix for false bottom woes (Paul Shick)
  Re: Fosters recipe (Jeff Renner)
  Brewing Software??? (Dan Martich)
  re:mashing specialty malts ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  RE:false bottom design for RIMs (J Daoust)
  Low FermentationTemps/Sulfur (Richard Foote)
  Specialty grain mashing & cheap sanitizer (VS Central)" <SIER1 at Aerial1.com>
  mash pH - something's a miss ("Alan Meeker")
  re: Foster's Recipe (Bill.X.Wible)
  San Francisco trip ("Alan Meeker")
  Thermocouple braid problem. ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Digital Thermometers ("Peter J. Calinski")
  RE:Hops disease, false bottom design for RIMs (Jonathan Peakall)
  Thermocouples and Thermistors (Jeff Berton)
  Fred Garvins Memory (fred_garvin)
  Growing Saaz (John Varady)
  Czech Hops ("St. Patrick's")
  Diacetyl ("Houseman, David L")
  mateship (Graham Sanders)
  false bottom design for RIMs (AKGOURMET)
  Blanche De Chambly (Graham Sanders)
  Hops Health ("Eric J Fouch")
  French Homebrewing (TtobbaMS)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 00:13:51 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: mash pH

A little context:
Nathaniel Lansing attempts to prove that I am in error when I report
that I have experienced entirely normal levels of head foam in beers brewed
without a mashout.  His refutation of my repeated experimental result is a
journal experiment paper which shows a 14% increase in certain foam related
proteins during a 76C 'mashout' of a modified Congress mash.  I question the
relevance of this paper to typical brewing and his overgeneralized
conclusion that mashout is *necessary* for normal foam levels on several
grounds.  The amount of foam active proteins (and correlative factors)
needed for normal foam is not evident and the extended 90 minute mashout
period only increase levels of the critical protein fraction by 14%.  The
experimental mash is rather thin (~2qt/lb).  The mash is not pH adjusted
(see below). The experimental malt is very overcrushed by brewing standards.
The step mash period is unusually lengthy (3.3 hours mash + 1.5 hour
mashout).

Nathaniel Lansing experiments and writes ...
>Steve had said a congress mash of 25 g malt in 100 ml
>distilled water with 150ppm Ca++ was not pH adjusted; it obviously is.

"pH adjustment" means controlling the pH to a predetermined value or range
based on measurement.  It does NOT mean happening upon a reasonable pH based
on a particular combination of calcium addition, malt and temperature.  This
must be so because most reports I have read indicate entirely different
resulting pH values under similar conditions to your experiment.  Also a
Congress mash CANNOT include a calcium addition; you have described a
*modified* Congress mash with respect to ion addition. temperatures and
time.

That your experimental result produced a mash pH in the normal brewing pH
range is a very interesting, even odd result and I sincerely applaud you for
performing and reporting on the experiment.   The paper you cited did add
150ppm calcium ions to the mash water, but was NOT pH adjusted to any
specified value as far as I can tell.

Some obvious problems arise in your experiments implementation and your
report.

1/ The paper's calcium ions may have been from calcium's sulfate, calcium
hydroxide, calcium bicarbonate or other sources.  I would expect different
pH results from each of these for several different reasons.  See the
'procedures' or 'methods' portion of the quoted paper.

2/ Adding the calcium after the mash-in, as you did, should have a different
effect than adding the calcium before mash-in or at a lower temperature.

3/ The explanation of the pH increase you observed is an anomaly, as Dave
Burley and Aaron Sepanski noted, which violates reference sources and common
experience and *requires* an explanation.  Your pH both in distilled water
and after gypsum addition defy common experience, as noted by A.J.deLange
and ubiquitous reports in the brewing lit.  It is puzzling that Continental
lager brewing with Plzen water quite close to distilled require
acidification,
but your experiment required a pH increase !!!   Your results call for
experimental repetition, and explanation.  To your credit you did repeat
these, with the same anomalous result. Now it is time to have someone else
repeat the experiment - someone without an axe to grind.  It would be nice
if AJ or Alan Meeker or Scott Murman another party not directly involved
in the discussion but with access to the lab equipment and a good reputation
for accurate unbiased reportage would repeat this portion.

4/ Based on the unusual pH result you observed and the lack of explanation,
any conclusion is unwarranted.  But yours is outlandish ...
>Conclusion: An extremely small mash responds to mash liquor
>mineral content the same way a production mash responds to
>mineral additions.
Size (proportion) has nothing to do with the result of course.  Calcium's
normal effect is to  DECREASE mash pH  but  your calcium addition INCREASED
pH.  These are not "the same" but are opposite results.  As George Fix
writes in PoBS2, pp4, "....Calcium.... . These ions react with malt
phosphates (primarily K2.HPO4) and thus decrease [mash] pH ...." .

The most readable and detailed description of the impact of calcium and
phosphates related to brewing pH that I have *ever* read appeared in the HBD
as a discussion primarily between Alan Meeker and A.J.deLange not so long
ago.

Again Nathaniel, I sincerely applaud your report of an interesting
experiment and result.  To me your result defies the literature, the methods
of continental brewing and my experience with calcium additions, and I
cannot make sense of your conclusion that a pH increase is "the same"
as a pH decrease.

 -S





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Date: Mon, 31 May 1999 22:12:51 -0700
From: "J. Kish" <jjkish at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Steve Lanes Stuck Mashes

Hello. Don't you hate stuck mashes when you
are trying to re-circulate with a RIMS?

 Why not try a half pound of rice hulls,
mixed in with the grist. You wouldn't
believe how the circulation improves!
 It's like magic!  You can almost run
your pump at full flow! 
 I wouldn't mash without it, now that I
discovered how nice it works.
 You can obtain a whole bale of rice hulls
at your animal feed store. Not expensive.
   Joe Kish


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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 02:14:20 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: pseudo-saaz

Stephen Ross says ...
>[....] but for a Czech Pils you may actually wish to
>American grown Ultra. I think it's fabulous and perhaps superior
>to Spalter.  Ultra's aroma is outstanding IMO.

I'll second that - Ultra is wonderful, and it isn't often that I can say
anything positive about US hops for lagers.  I think Ultra's spiciness is
stylistically closer to Saaz and is completely at home in a Pils. Spalter is
wonderful in a different way.

 -S






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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 16:25:49 +1000 (EST)
From: Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative <Scott.Morgan at Aus.Sun.COM>
Subject: my lord...


My Lord, mention Fosters and see all those Aussies come out to play.

It is a rare sight to see Regan posting more than once every 6 months.
And the same day as Phil!

I think your all giving Fosters a hard wrap. Its a great beer...to throw
at a footy match.....to drink warm camping when some dumb bastard thinks
it a funny idea for the only alcholic beverages to be bought are Fosters 
tinnies.....to unclog the sink.

My house mates in Amherst Mass took no amount of convicing that the only
beer on sale in OZ is Fosters. A bit like the idea in Oz that Amercians 
only drink budweiser I guess.

Its an old mans beer...and definately not one that you asked for loudly
over the bar. Come to think of it, i dont seem to know of many pubs in 
sydney with on tap. MAybe the best place to look is the Burradoo Hilton. 
Are you hiding secrets from us phil??

Scotty








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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:24:13 +1000
From: "Richard Pass" <richard.pass at anu.edu.au>
Subject: Fosters

Regan writes:

>while I resist the temptation to ask "why", here is what is used for all
>CUB's mainstream (or is that midstream...?) beers.
>60% 2-row lager malt, 40% cane sugar make up the fermentables

Regan,
a guy whose name escapes me but who said he was ex-CUB and who at the time
worked for the Heathcote winery  told me that the wort for VB, Carlton
Draught, Crown Lager, Fosters and Melbourne Bitter was the same.  According
to him, after fermentation with no hops as you described and subsequent
filtration, the wort was checked against specs before blending.  Wort that
was within spec was used for Crown.  The rest was blended with wort from
other ferments until within spec.  All were then hopped using ISO Hop,
coloured, carbonated, packaged and pasteurised.  Yum!

Still, I can't imagine what use this information could be to anybody.

Cheers,
Richard Pass




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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:24:38 +0200 
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: Homebrew Tri-Nations?

All this talk of Fosters gave me an idea. Are any of the Kiwi or Aussie
members going to be supporting their sides when they play rugby over here in
SA?

It might be fun to set up a Homebrew Tri-Nations.

Ant Hayes
Brewing where beer was invented.


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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:06:13 +200
From: "Braam Greyling" <braam.greyling at azoteq.com>
Subject: Dirty play by SAB

Hi 

South African Breweries is thge 3rd or 4th biggest brewery in the 
world. This is how they keep out the competition.
(In my opinion, definitely not by providing a nice beer). 

>>>>>
SA Breweries blocks Kenya Breweries with an elephant

SA Breweries (SAB) has a registered elephant trade mark for one of 
its brands and it has told Kenya Breweries, which has indicated its 
desire to enter the SA market, that the elephant icon of its leading 
brand, Tusker, requires some alteration if it is to be introduced 
into SA. It refuses to do so, says SAB.  

SAB says conversely if it attempted to produce or export a product 
into Kenya bearing its elephant trade mark, it would be reasonable 
for the Kenyans to refuse to allow such a product to be sold there. 

<<<<<


Braam Greyling      
Snr. Design Engineer
Azoteq(Pty)Ltd     

Please note new e-mail address: braam.greyling at azoteq.com


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Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 07:24:56 -0400
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Beer on airplanes

To the collective:

Pardon me for getting a little off topic.  I have always bemoaned the
fact that the beers available on airlines are not of the quality that
I care to drink unless I am REALLY thirsty.  I have even complained
about this to the airlines.

It finally dawned on me that the problem here is that the airline
serves everything in cans or in very small bottles, and I know of only
a few high-quality craft-brewed beers that come in cans.

Am I wrong in this assessment?  What can we do about this?  Drink
wine?
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA


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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 08:23:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Hop_Head at webtv.net
Subject: Hop Scale

Does any one know of a source for a good scale for weighing hops? I
would prefer a digital model but anything will do.



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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 07:29:37 -0500
From: "Bob Opalko" <opalko at ebicom.net>
Subject: Water analysis help

Howdy all,

as per suggestion by a fellow brewer who was of great help to me on rcb I am
posting my local tap water analysis with the hopes of finding out if there
is anything in there that is causing a "metallic" aroma and off-flavor in my
brews (extracts/partial mash, concentrated boils).

I have never boiled or let the water sit overnight before brewing...

This is straight out of the tap and all are in ppm (except pH?).

pH: 6.6
Alkalinity (P): 0		Alkalinity (T): 28.0
Chloride: 5.1 		Sulfate: 3.6 	Fluoride: 1.1
Free CO2: 15 		Iron: <0.1		Magnesium: 1.4
Manganese: 0.034 		Calcium: 8.1	Sodium: 5.5
Potassium: <1.0		Ca+Mg Hardness as CaCO3: 26

Chlorine content measured from the tap was right at 1ppm.

Any suggestions?  Boil first?  Let it stand overnight?

Now, having said that, I have access to water (w/o the convenience of being
from the tap) with no treatment and the following analysis:

pH: 5.5
Alkalinity (P): 0		Alkalinity (T): 12.0
Chloride: 15.0 		Sulfate: 3.2 	Fluoride: <0.1
Free CO2: 83 		Iron: <0.1		Magnesium: 1.0
Manganese: 0.005 		Calcium: 2.1	Sodium: 5.2
Potassium: 1.3		Ca+Mg Hardness as CaCO3: 9

No Chlorine measured.

Would I see a significant improvement in my brew by using the untreated
water or stick with the ease of tap water?  Would I need to add anything for
a good bitter (my favorite brew) to either one?

Thanks for any help!

Cheers!
Bob



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Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 09:03:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Shick <SHICK at JCVAXA.jcu.edu>
Subject: Simple fix for false bottom woes



Hello all,

	Steve Lane writes in about his problems with a set mash in
his 2 tier converted keg system.  He suspects that his problem is
due to a sagging false bottom that restricts the flow.  Steve, if
the false bottom is really the culprit, then there's an easy solution
that I'll outline below.  However, the grain bill you mention has
a lot of oats, which are notoriously "sticky," unless you do a low
temperature beta-glucanase rest (104-108F, for about 15 minutes.)
The other non-hardware suggestion is just to keep the flow rates as
low as you can without scorching.  Having mentioned these possibilities,
here's the hardware approach.

	A few years back, I posted about my problems with a Sabco false 
bottom that kept collapsing during recirculation.  Keeping the mash 
moderately thick and pump flow rates low avoided full collapses, but
the false bottom still seemed to flex a bit, allowing grain to come through.
Because of this, I had to clear the post-pump gate valve frequently during 
recirculation, to avoid clogging.  After my initial post, a number of people 
suggested support systems for the center of the false bottom. I finally 
gotten around to fabricating a simple piece that seems to fix the problem 
entirely.

	The problem is that the Sabco FB is a 12" diameter circle of 
perforated stainless that's hinged in the middle, to make it easy to 
install/remove.  There's a 1/2" hole in the middle where a drain tube runs
through to the bottom of a converted keg.  The FB seemed to flex in the 
middle, under the weight of grain and suction from the pump, because it's
supported only aroung the edges.  The easiest support for the middle section
that I've been able to come up with is to take a short length of 1 1/2" OD
copper pipe, cut to the distance from the bottom of the keg to the bottom
of the FB (1 3/8" in my case.)  I then cut four large "slots" in the bottom
The pipe fits "around" the drain tube, under the FB, supporting it from below. 
To put the mash tun together, just put in the copper support pipe (slotted 
in the false bottom, with the center hole over the top of the copper pipe, 
then install the drain tube down the middle.  

Bad ASCII art follows:
				        __________________________
                                      / __________________________
                                    / /
                                   | | <----- Drain tube
	Side view                  | |
                                   | |
    False Bottom  ---------------- | | ------------------
		           ___________________    A
			  |  	   | |	      |	  |
			  |        | |        |   |
			  |	   | |	      |   |  
      1.5" copper	  |        | |        |   | 1 3/8"
	pipe	  ------> |      __ ____      |   |
			  |     /  | |  \     |   |
			  |    /   | |   \    |   |
			  |   /    | |    \   |   |
	      ____ 	  ----	   | |     ----   V   _______
    Keg bottom	  \__________________________________/
		


	So far, the device has worked quite well.  The FB has shown 
no evidence of flexing after a typical 20+ lb grain bill.  With such batches 
before adding the support, the FB was coming out pretty warped.  It seems to 
be a very simple fix to the problem.

			Paul Shick
			Cleveland Hts, OH




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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:13:52 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Fosters recipe

Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au> asks:
>Which Fosters? The one you get in Australia, or the one brewed in the US
>to American tastes...

Ahh, the marketers here in the States are are much too clever to brew it
here - they want to be able to say in big letters, "IMPORTED".  So they
brew it in Canada and ship it across the border duty free thanks to NAFTA
(North American Free Trade Agreement).

I wouldn't be surprised if they brew some here so the Canadians can drink
imported Foster's too.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 09:29:50 -0400
From: Dan Martich <martich at nyct.net>
Subject: Brewing Software???

Hello all,
Are there any good brewing software out there?  I think I've come across
one or two but I'm still unfamiliar with what I should be looking for.

Brewing Calculations? Inputting recipes? etc.

I have both platforms but is there anything for the Mac?

Any and all help is greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
Dan Martich
martich at nyct.net


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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:36:46 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: re:mashing specialty malts

stjones asked>>He says that specialty
grains, especially crystal and dextrin malt, should not be mashed with
the base malt because  the enzymes will 'destroy' the dextrins, <<

Not really, dextrin malt is specially made to resist further hydrolysis
by malt enzymes, and the malster states Carapils (r) _must_ be mashed.
A good portion of the unfermentables in  crystal malts is from the
caramelization of the sugars, again resistant to hydrolysis
(not as resistant as dextrin malt).  If you are doing a full mash it is
not a big deal to change the temperature profile to increase the dextrin
production anyway. 

>>I've always put all my grain
bill in the mash tun, <<

Do your beers come out thin and overattenuated? If they do, calibrate
your thermometer, or kick your rest temperatures up a coupla degrees.
  crystal malts (excluding Carapils (r) 'dextrine malt') = color and flavor
  mash temperature=body and attenuation

N.P. Lansing







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Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 06:41:06 -0700
From: J Daoust <thedaousts at ixpres.com>
Subject: RE:false bottom design for RIMs

Steve,you never stated the flow rate of your system, maybe your problem
lies with the gpm of your system. Even though you state you back it
down, is it enough?  I have another 3 keg system, but I am running a
sort of rims/ herms hybrid. I have a separate heating vessel, about 2-3
times bigger than the average rims with a heat exchanger in it. This
allows me to flow the wort at ~ 1 gal/min, I have used it for the past 7
months without any problems whatsoever. The grain bed has never stuck,
and I haven't had any problems scorching the wort. I think if you backed
down your flow rate(if possible) to the 1-2 gal per minute range you
won't have the stuck mash probs.   Good luck, Jerry Daoust


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Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 09:43:24 -0400
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Low FermentationTemps/Sulfur

Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>wrote:
>>
>>I am fermenting an ale at ambient temperatures.<snip>
>>the fermenting wort temperature does
>>not go below 12C, and does not fluctuate too much.
>>
>>Question: For the last two days, in the morning, a sulphur odour emanates
>>from the air lock, but at night everything smells normal. Is sulphur odour a
>>sign of fermenting at too low a temperature?

Jeff Renner Responds:
>
>I don't know, but sulfur is a pretty normal component of lager
>fermentations, which take place at cool temps.  I always thought it was
>typical of lager yeasts, but maybe it's the temperature.  One thing for
>sure, it has never caused a problem with the finished beer.  I certainly
>wouldn't worry.

I once used an alt yeast fermenting at the lower end of temperature range
for ale fermentation.  It produced the sulfur aroma of a lager yeast.  It
would seem that at least for certain ale strains, temperature can induce
sulfur production.  BTW, the beer came out fine.  I've also used other ale
yeasts in brewing a porter at 50 degrees or so (when you have an unheated
basement in VT in winter, you do what you gotta do) and recall no sulfur
production.  Other than  finishing at a higher than expected gravity, this
one came out fine too.

Hope this helps.

Rick Foote
Murrayville, GA




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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:47:40 -0400 
From: "Sieben, Richard (VS Central)" <SIER1 at Aerial1.com>
Subject: Specialty grain mashing & cheap sanitizer

The guy who told 'Steve' that specialty grains should not be mashed is
speaking counter to every brewery text I have read and counter to every
brewery practice I have seen.  And given the 'authority' with which he
speaks, I would assume him to be a fool.  Ignore him.  Think about it, you
we mash out at 170 degrees to avoid tannin extraction from the grain husks,
so what possible sense does it make to BOIL grains?  Also, attenuation has
more to do with your mashing schedule  of times and temps than anything else
anyway.  Oh, I get it, the joke is on me because I responded. hahahaha

Charley Burns asked what we use to clean equipment that doesn't cost body
parts (arms and legs).  I like PBW and Star San myself.  And I set up my
cleaning so I can clean several vessles (carboys, kettles, kegs) with one
batch of  cleaner and sanitizer.  This stretches out the chemical and the
per use cost goes down.  Plus, I really like the no rinse and no flavor
profile part of Star San.  The cost of the Five Star products goes down
further if you make a cooperative purchase with some other homebrewers and
order at least $200 worth in a single order direct from Five Star.  I don't
know that any HB shop will be able to give you a better price for a larger
purchase, you could always ask.  One of my local shops won't carry it
because they make iodophor and they don't want to compete with themselves.
Too bad for them, they made no sale.

Rich Sieben
Island Lake, IL


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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:43:27 -0400
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: mash pH - something's a miss

Nathan, something seems seriously wrong with your pH experiment. As pointed
out, the pH is changing in the wrong direction.
I didn't read the original post closely enough - was the 4.78 the pH of the
di-water or the mash made with the di-water? If it was the di-water then
that could explain the "backwards" result, otherwise something is indeed
fishy!

>his results
>purportedly shows a pH= 4.78 for distilled water and 5.68 for 150 ppm
>calcium in wort. This is backwards to what one would expect.<<
>Yeah, that is why I repeated the experiment! Another puzzlement is
>why have I never measured 7 pH in distilled water? even after heating
>and cooling to dispel any CO2.

The reason you'll rarely, if ever,  get a pH of 7.0 for "pure" distilled
water is that you'll never have truly pure water! It will always be in
equilibrium with whatever gasses it is exposed to - notably CO2 which will
set up an equilibrium forming carbonate species and carbonic acid in
solution. Boiling will remove dissolved CO2 gas and shift the equilibrium
but it will be VERY difficult to ever get a situation where you've totally
eliminated all the relevant species and since water has virtually no
buffering capacity of it's own it doesn't take much to deflect the pH away
from it's theoretical value of 7.00

 -Alan Meeker
Baltimore, MD



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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:59:47 -0400
From: Bill.X.Wible at QuestDiagnostics.com
Subject: re: Foster's Recipe



Thanks to all of you for the responses.

Yes, I am aware that the Foster's we get in the US is contract brewed by
Molson, in Canada.  It says so right on the label.  So I expect it's not what
the guys in Australia are getting .

I did expect a number of those "why do you want to bother" responses.
While I like everything from IPA to Barleywine to Stout to Porter to Berliner
Weisse (without syrup), and brew those beers for myself,  I also brew beer
for people other than myself.  I've always said that for me, part of the
challenge of brewing is to be able to make beer that other people (family
and friends) like and enjoy.  If, in the process of doing that,  I can turn them
on to 'real' beer, then that's great, too.  But I got off that soapbox.  If
people
like lager and want to drink it, (and ALOT of people do), then that's their
choice, and I don't think they're anymore "wrong" than they think I am for
liking Berliner Weisse or Gueze.

Hey - at least my friend didn't ask for Coors Light!  ('fraid I would have to
have said - NO.)

Bill




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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:00:56 -0400
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: San Francisco trip

Greetings, I'm heading off to San Francisco this month and would like to get
any suggestions as to what to see out there (beer-related or otherwise) Any
info will be appreciated. Will I be close enough to Chico for a day trip?

 -Alan






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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:21:50 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Thermocouple braid problem.

Dave Burley suggests:


>Pete Calinski has had trouble with dipping the thermocouple braid into the
>wort and having it cause false readings since the top of the thermocouple
>body is not sealed.
 
>An idea which I have never tried but should work is to get a long piece of
>flexible heat shrinkable spaghetti tubing from the electronics parts store
>and cover the entire length of the flexible braid of the thermocouple such
>that the tubing prevents the braid ( and thus the thermocouple)  from
>getting wet. Heat it with a hair dryer to shrink it on the thermocople
body
>and the braid. Maybe even put a little curable silicone adhesive around
the
>seal between the body of the thermocouple body and the spaghetti for
>security. I think there is even some unpigmented heat shrinkable PTFE (
>Teflon) tubing available.

To which I reply:

I have a heat shrink "heat gun" and a spare thermocouple so I would be glad
to try this and report the results.  Can anyone point me to a suitable
shrink tubing?  I feel it would need to be "food grade" and be able to
withstand boiling temperatures.

In other experiments I have tried, I used the thin aquarium tubing assuming
it is food grade.  It doesn't hold up well to the high temperatures.  It
even seems to deteriorate after multiple mashes.

Right now, I like to use the device because of its temperature alarm.  I
start the mash water and set the alarm to 5F below the temperature I
want(making sure only the tip is in the water).  Then mill the grain and do
other stuff. The alarm lets me know when its time to pay attention.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY



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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 09:59:26 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Digital Thermometers

Bill Wright wrote:

>Word to the wise on digital thermometers -- just because they show the 
>temperature down to the degree, or even tenth of a degree, doesn't mean 
>they're accurate.  It's not uncommon for digital thermometers in the
$10-$30 
>price range to be +/- 3f.  Check them before you brew.  

If you check the archives for the last 12 months or so, you will find a
post from someone that can provide these thermometers in a calibrated
version (for a price).

In my experience, they should be able to claim 1F repeatability.  It seems
that when the temperature is changing rapidly, the units seem to update in
two degree increments.  Once things settle down they fluctuate in one
degree increments.  They must have built in some kind of tracking loop that
waits for a 2F change before update during rapid movements.

I assume it is the same when set to degrees C.  (Does "C" stand for degrees
Canadian? ;-).


Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY



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Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 07:16:05 -0700
From: Jonathan Peakall <jpeakall at mcn.org>
Subject: RE:Hops disease, false bottom design for RIMs

Greg is having problems with his hops, and BR suggest it might be spider
mites. BR says " And being one of those wacky environmental types,
pesticides are not an option for me. ". Refreshing to hear! Count me
wacky too! Seems to be a fair number of "Miracle Grow" gardeners out
there. Anyway, safer soap may help *reduce* spider mites, as it will
hurt them when young. Blasting the leaves with water is great too. If
done early on, along with the Lacewings, these methods should work.
Another semi green alternative is a paraffin wax based spray. This will
wail on the mites, but is only semi green, for while the product itself
is fine for the environment (so I'm told) it is a petroleum based
product, and hence the manufacturing of it is presumably ugly.

Steve asks about manifold designs for a RIMS. I use a cpvc manifold,
details available on request, which I made when I discovered that my
Phalse bottom had become a Phlat bottom (or, as I called it while
dumping out 25 # of grain to unstick the mash, ph**ed bottom), and it is
terrific. And I borrowed a phalse bottom from a friend and played with
food dyes on spent grain, and it appears that the manifold distributes
more evenly.



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Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 10:37:28 -0400
From: Jeff Berton <jeff344 at voodoo.grc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Thermocouples and Thermistors

Just a (nitpicking) clarification, but a few people lately have
been writing about thermocouples becoming water-soaked
and unreliable.  Thermocouples operate by exploiting the
Seebeck effect and are absolutely waterproof.  Although I
haven't seen them, the Lowe's digital thermometers almost
certainly use thermistors, which measure temperature via
resistance changes.  And it is possible for the semiconductor
material of a thermistor to become water-soaked and give
false readings.

Thermistor thermometers can be very sensitive and give
repeatable readings.  If your digital thermistor
thermometer doesn't perform to your expectations,
it might be possible to calibrate it with a more accurate
thermometer.

Jeff Berton
North Royalton, OH




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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:19:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: fred_garvin at fan.com
Subject: Fred Garvins Memory

Phil seems to be talking nonsense:
>
Unaware until I returned home and Jill
informed me "one of your weirdo beer
mates has left a very odd message on 
the answering machine"
Alas, Jeff and Fred Garvin had headed
home in disgust!
I'll make it up to you Jeff, and Fred, 
I promise.
>

Fred Garvin doesn't remember this trip.
Fred Garvin does remember waking up
on Mr. Renner's front porch in a 
shopping cart,with his pants around his
ankles, and a $20 bill stuffed in his 
mouth.

Fred Garvin has since retired.



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Get free email from CNN Sports Illustrated at http://email.cnnsi.com/


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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:22:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: Growing Saaz

I have several varieties of hops growing in my yard, some two years and some
three years old.

My Cascade, Liberty, Tettnang and Perle are all at the top of thier trellis
already (18').

My third year Saaz, however, is just about 6 feet tall, with the second year
Saaz at about 4 foot tall.

Is anyone out in HBDLand sucessfully growing Saaz hops? FYI, I am on the
East Coast, specifically Philadelphia.

If these czech buggers don't put out, I'm gonna have to dig 'em up and
replace them with a more vigorous grower.

- ---

On the subject of Mead and Cider being included in a brewing forum, I think
that there is plenty of room for them. I had no interest in making either of
these beverages for the first few years of my fermentation exploits. Now, I
make a batch of cider each year in the fall and the occasional mead when the
mood strikes.

And you know what, I might even make sake one day.

And wouldn't it be wonderful if I could find information about it when the
time comes in a brewing magazine or newsgroup? And even though I might not
be currently making it, reading about it might just be the push I need to
take it up.

I'd rather see these fermented beverages included in brewing competitions
than see them slip into the cracks of obscurity.

- ---

And now, for something completely different:

"I lowered my balls into a glass of room temperature water and empirically
confirmed my calculations." - Dan Listermann on his Phloating Balls.

Now doesn't that paint a pretty picture....

(I don't know how that made it past the HBD stand-ups, but I sure wasn't
gonna let it slide by!)

- ---

See you at the BUZZ-OFF this weekend!

John
- -- 
John Varady                     http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady
Glenside, PA                    rust1d at usa.net



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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 06:27:07 -0500
From: "St. Patrick's" <stpats at bga.com>
Subject: Czech Hops

PU, as are many other czech pilsners, is made with only Saaz (Zatek in
Czech) hops. There are only 3 other hops grown in Czech Republic.  Bor,
Sladek, and Premiant. Many breweries use Bor and Sladek (I never saw a
brewery using Premiant) in early additions only.  Neither Bor, Sladek,
Premiant are available in US.

Just as with German hops, the hop name also includes the region where the
hops are grown.  There are 3 regions in Czech Rep.  Saaz hops are grown in
all three but the Saaz (Zatek) hops from the Saaz (Zatek) region are
superior.  PU and Budvar, for example, use only Zatek Zatek.

When you buy Saaz hops at homebrew shops, including mine, you can't tell
from the labeling which region the hops are from.  None of the hop
processors in North America include this information in the labeling
either; they just sell 'Czech Saaz', even though I'm sure at least some of
the hops are in fact Zatek Zatek.  I am certain that we sell Zatek Zatek
and the labeling will reflect that in the next catalog.

Lynne O'Connor
St. Patrick's of Texas
Brewers Supply
1828 Fleischer Drive
Austin, Texas 78728 USA
512-989-9727
512-989-8982 fax
www.stpats.com







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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:27:38 -0400 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Diacetyl

Doug Moyer asks about diacetyl, poor handling and autolysis.   Different
people have different perceptions.  Personally I don't think the two can be
confused.  To me diacetyl is a buttery character that's quite distinctive;
I'm pretty sensitive to it whereas I'm not as sensitive to DMS although I
can detect it at higher levels.  Autolysis to me has a rubbery, sulfury
nature that quite distinctive as well.  And I've rarely noticed it in
homebrewed beers, but when it's detectable, it's VERY noticeable.  The thing
to think about is the sources of diacetyl.  Produced during normal
fermentation and later absorbed by the yeast, diacetyl is present in all
beer at some point, but those that are not lagered, consumed too soon before
the diacetyl is absorbed, perhaps racked too soon off of the yeast or the
yeast fell out of suspension too soon due to thermal shock may have levels
of diacetyl that are too high for the style.  Some yeast produce more
diacetyl or re-absorb less than others.  Fermentation at higher temperatures
tends to create more diacetyl, pehaps more than the yeast can absorb.
Another source is infections the release diacetyl.  Pediococcus is one of
these.  Most brewers do not sterilize bottles or in some cases even sanitize
or rinse.  They are delivered from the glass manufacturer and filled.   So
time spent unrefridgerated lends opportunity to any latent infections that
can result in additional diacetyl.  Especially long journeys in warm trucks.


David Houseman


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Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:11:27 +1000 
From: Graham Sanders <GrahamS at bsa.qld.gov.au>
Subject: mateship


G.day all

I sort of feel sorry for other people outside Australia.  When we talk about
mateship and use the term 'mate' it has a totally different meaning to the
rest of the world.  I say this with the information that my Wit yeast
culture from Brad should arrive today.  Now poor Brad lives in the colder
clims of the Great South Land, and while I do feel sorry for that, he had no
hesitation in sending the Wit yeast when I asked.  And Phil, with his offer
to send that famous rampant yeast to the far reaches of this brown land is
truely appreciated. (although he does test it sometimes - more latter).
There arn't too many places I know where people are that willing to share at
the drop of a hat.  Why even Scott is a true mate, will to share his French
maidens if I ever make my way down there.

But why do I write.  Well I was in my local hardware store (handles all the
purchases for Nth Aus) and could not but overhear a conversation.  Seemed he
represented the hotel industry in the Whitsundays, and they had decided to
refurbish their toilets.  Now the manager was more than pleased but wanted
to know why?  Well it seems that some bloke with a homie in hand was running
from floor to floor and hotel to hotel, checking and complaining about the
toilets, yelling something about fags and american rubbish in the one
breath.  Well it seems when he was eventually cornered and stated he was the
owner of some famous hotel, and a quick tirade from him had forces the hotel
industry to 'have a wee look at itself'.

Its also strange that a local rice farmer thought the famous Bud was trying
to buy up our rice crop.  He wasn't convinced by the arguments from the guy
that he was the brewmaster of a famous hotel in NSW and needed more rice.  I
dont know why, but I cant help but put the two incidents together.  But how
did I hear of this and about Phils mateship.  Well I live a few hours North
of the Whitsundays, and knowing Phil would be up, I offered my pool table,
and even the ladies if he would supply the famous lager.  Now I know Phil is
only used to the best standards of the 'Hilton', and even I have heard that
the Whitsundays didn't quite messure up, but when I told him that my pool
table was not quite full size, and you dont have to bend over that much to
play your shots, well he never did show.

Yes Jeff, I can appreciate where you are coming from.

Oh Phil, yes we are still mates, as long as I get the yeast, and not that
vial on the far post.

Shout

Graham Sanders


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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 20:56:05 EDT
From: AKGOURMET at aol.com
Subject: false bottom design for RIMs

Steve Lane wrote in about problems with his RIMS false bottom.  I've run a 
few batches thru my RIMS now, so thought I would chime in.  I use a 48 qt. 
ice chest with a copper manifold for the mash tun.  The manifold has four 
1/2" pipes running the length of the cooler with slots cut every 3/8" or so.  
It works ok, but if I could afford it, I would buy a perforated stainless 
false bottom because of the greater open area.  However, this works for now.

I used to stick mashes too, until I added a grant to the setup.  A grant is 
basically a holding tank between the mash tun outlet and the pump inlet.  It 
eliminates the suction from the pump.  The mash drains by gravity into the 
container and then is available to the pump.  All I did to make the grant was 
buy a gallon-size plastic juice jug, add a drain in the bottom and hang it 
below the valve on the mash tun outlet.  The drain is a 1/2" thru-hull 
fitting I got at the marine store.  The jug also has markings on the side so 
I can figure flow rate.  When sparging, I like to drain a quart from the mash 
every 40-60 seconds for 11 gallon batches. 

One more thing.  I used to have a hard time priming the herms pipes when the 
pump was connected directly to the mash tun.  No problem after adding the 
grant.  I have a picture of my RIMS at www.gourmetalaska.com/wsn9B94.html, 
but it was taken before the grant was added.

Bill Wright
Juneau, Alaska
www.gourmetalaska.com


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Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 11:01:42 +1000 
From: Graham Sanders <GrahamS at bsa.qld.gov.au>
Subject: Blanche De Chambly


Speaking of sharing yeasts, the Wit yeast Brad is sending me comes from this
bottle.

Any ideas what yeast this could relate to, just for technical info mind you.

Shout

Graham Sanders 


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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:13:01 -0700
From: "Eric J Fouch" <fouches at iserv.net>
Subject: Hops Health

HBD'rs-

Looking at the picture of the unhealthy hops, I was stricken by the
resemblance to my own hop bines, now a good 10 feet tall.  Last year they
had the same affliction.  They put out good cones, and I brewed a few award
winning beers with them (don't worry, my arm's double jointed) but they just
don't look healthy.  And- it's not how you feel, it's how you look.
Rather than take one HBD participant and supposed future Ph.D. individual
who seems to have an answer for EVERYTHING, except for when you ask for
references, and lives in Maryland, and whose last name rhymes with "Geeker"
's advice and feed my hops sausage and butter, I picked an afflicted leaf
and looked at it under a microscope.  I took a picture of what I found,
which is called a "photomicrograph" and not a "microphotograph", which is a
very small picture, and found a very disturbing organism:

http://www.swampgas.com/files/leaf.jpg

Kudos to  at , the Artist Formerly Known as The Artist Formerly Known as Kap'n
Salty for posting this to his website for my purposes.  If you go there, do
not tease his robot geek buddies.  He doesn't like that very much.  Anyway,
I sent this picture to my former college advisor in the biology department
at Central Michigan University to see if she or any of the faculty would
care to identify the offensive li'l sons o' bitches getting a free ride off
my hop plants.  I invite any myco, micro or xenobiologists on the list to do
the same.

I suppose I should have broke that into a few paragraphs for the likes of
Steve Alexander, but I just kegged up some Big Brew 2000 APA, and a Belgian
White that I will be serving up at the NHC in Livonia later this month, and
am a bit tipsy.  Stop by and say "Hi!"  The first 30 visitors get a free
sample of whatever presumable fungus this turns out to be.

Eric Fouch
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
Kentwood, MI




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Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 21:44:55 EDT
From: TtobbaMS at aol.com
Subject: French Homebrewing

I will shortly be moving from the US to Toulouse in France and am looking for 
any information on homebrewing in France. If anyone has any information on 
homebrew clubs, supplies or French web sites would be appreciated.

Please reply by e mail.

Thanks for any assistance.

Mike Abbott (ttobbams at aol.com)


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---