---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  brewing software (J Daoust)
  database for brewing journals (ensmingr)
  re: mash temp. (J Daoust)
  Hot side aeration ("Aaron Sepanski")
  Yeast Starter ("Aaron Sepanski")
  lactic acid in mashes, it's up to you. ("Dr. Pivo")
  New York City Homebrewers Picnic (Phil Clarke)
  Jeff Renner's mild? (Bill.X.Wible)
  Hop n Gator ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Pride of Ringwood ("Dave Edwards")
  a doctor of /what?/ ("Alan Meeker")
  Mort O'Sullivan ("Stephen Alexander")
  more HSA ("Alan Meeker")
  CACA vs Genny clone (Paul Shick)
  Re: Lactic? (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Beechwood Chip Usage at A-B (Jeff Renner)
  crystal unfermentables ("Alan Meeker")
  mash pH ("Alan Meeker")
  HSA challenge (Paul Shick)
  RE: Absolute Best Advice (Jonathan Peakall)
  more favorites (Aaron Perry)
  Reconditioned wine barrels/Micro Barrels ("NATHAN T Moore")
  Phos sources ("Aaron Sepanski")
  Saturated hard water ("Aaron Sepanski")
  Specific Gravity to Plato ("Aaron Sepanski")
  More confusion (AJ)
  Jeff's Question (AJ)
  genny cream ale and maris otter ("Czerpak, Pete")


* Don't miss the 2000 AHA NHC in Livonia, MI 
* 6/22 through 6/24 http://hbd.org/miy2k

* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!


Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we canoot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req at hbd.org.

JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 21:41:31 -0700
From: J Daoust <thedaousts at ixpres.com>
Subject: brewing software

Dan, check out promash, it is a great homebrewing or commercial software
program. You can download a demo for free. I think its www.promash.com
Jerry D


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 00:42:17 -0400
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: database for brewing journals

Greetings homebrewers,

I am looking for a database of brewing journals to find full reference
data (author, date, title, journal, volume, page numbers) of a number of
brewing articles -- ideally, something analogous to MedLine for brewers.
In particular, I'd like full citations (and abstracts, if possible) for
the following articles:
G. A. Howard et al., 1957, Journal of the Institute of Brewing 63, 237.
L. R. Bishop et al., 1974, Journal of the Institute of Brewing 80, 68.
S. Sakuma et al., 1991, Journal of the American Society of Brewing
Chemists 49, 162.
H. Voss and A. Piendl, 1976, Brewers Digest, 51, 55.
F. R. Sharpe and I. H. L. Ormrod, 1991, Journal of the Institute of
Brewing 97, 3
M.L. Viriot et al., 1980, Journal of the Institute of Brewing 86, 21.

Searching on Google, Yahoo, Alta Vista, etc. has not been successful.
Can anyone help? TIA.

Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
just call me email: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 21:44:54 -0700
From: J Daoust <thedaousts at ixpres.com>
Subject: re: mash temp.

Jeff calton asked;
  If it is generally agreed that mashing and sparging
in the same bucket to reduce hot side aeration will improve ones beer,
is this
perceived benefit worth what seems to me to be a tradeoff of trying to
hit ones
mash temperature by adding hot or cold water to the mash tun?  If I
switch to a
combination mash/lauter tune made from a Rubbermaid cooler how easy is
it to hit
and maintain a target mash temp without being able to simply apply heat
to the
bottom of the container?


The easy answer, go to a herms or rims type system, and you can make
maintaining your temp as easy as setting a dial. I use a rubbermaid with
a herms, and have had great success.
Good luck, Jerry Daoust


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 23:58:58 -0700
From: "Aaron Sepanski" <madaarjul at earthlink.net>
Subject: Hot side aeration

Before I made any bets, I'd try it myself.  There is a famous article
published about three and a half years ago if I am correct by a prof. from
the Siebel Institute.  He performed a similar experiment.  His was slightly
more involved.  He measured oxygen pick-up throughout the process.  From
grain to glass, he found hot side aeration to have a profoundly smaller
impact than expected.

There were small differences in oxidative products, granted.  Most
important, the net effect was almost an imperceptible flavor change.  The
take home message he gave was that brewers should be much more concerned
about oxidation further down the process, post fermentation.  This will
produce staling off-flavor and decrease shelf life invariably.

This was surprising to me at first, but then I learned of a Brewery in
England that deliberately aerates hot wort.  I do not want to say with
brewery, because I am not 100% sure off hand, but it is a famous maker. 
They run a percolator during the boil, the result being a beer that is
aerated continuously throughout the boil all the way through knock out.

I am friends with a master beer judge who frequents England.  I asked
regarding oxidative off flavors, and he assured me that there were none at
threshold.  

My guess would be a little more conservative.  It would seem reasonable to
me to try and prevent it, but not to kill yourself in worry about all air,
look at RIMS.



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 0:34:49 -0700
From: "Aaron Sepanski" <madaarjul at earthlink.net>
Subject: Yeast Starter

Yeast Starter will replicate throughout.  Yeast will bud all the way
through fermentation.  Often times people equate aeration with division. 
This isn't entirely wrong.  Aeration in a wort drives lipid synthesis,
which is necessary for cell membrane materials.  Even a non aerated wort
with reproduce, but the yeast is extremely stressed.  So a starter with
give growing yeast two aerations and get your cell count up.  You will
always get about ten divisions or doublings.  I have seen this many times
in the lab.



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 11:51:21 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: lactic acid in mashes, it's up to you.

Phil and Jill Yates wonders why I lump lactic acid usage in mashing
together with other modern methods of producing less tasty products....
actually I'm wondering just how curious Jill is about all that.(?)

There is a long and short answer to that.

Using lactic acid to lower mash pH sacrifices "dextrins" for "alcohol".
I lie quite a bit when I talk about stuff, in order to keep it simple. I
like to call the stuff you get out of the malt when mashing "maltose"
(fermentable) and "dextrins" (non fermentable). There's actually a bunch
of other crud* 
(*technical term for "belonging to the category of both
fermentable/non-fermentable) within both of those categories, but it's
as good enough place as any to start. so let's pretend it's that simple.

As I'm sure you remember from Brewing 1A and Thursday evenings at
Regan's, at about pH 5.2 you will get maximal ammount of maltose, which
will become alcohol. Let the pH drift up and you will get more dextrins
and less alcohol.

What difference will this make in the long run?

I'm not even going to go into the vicinity of talking about whether
dextrins cause "mouth feel" or "body".....that one's been fairly
thoroughly thrashed. Let's just say they do cause SOMETHING taste-wise.

Dextrins have a flavour that I would describe as "either enhancing malty
flavours, or themselves being perceived as "malty"", and "either
enhancing sweet flavours, or themselves being percieved as sweet".
Pretty diffuse, huh?

Alcohol has flavour too. Some describe it as belonging in the "sweet"
range, but I'll leave that.  What I do find is that alcohol enhances
feusal flavours (which may just be a hand in hand production thing and
crossing a threshold, since feusals ARE alcohol, with longer tails than
our favourite), enhances aldehyde flavours (they're on the same
metabolic train track and the same explanation could apply), and what I
can't figure, but seems to apply, is they seem to mask estery flavours.

Now let's leave my incredibly subjective taste evaluations, and
observations from pumping my "Maltose/Dextrin ratio" up and down, and
get to something I know about, and that get's us back to Czech breweries
(What else?)

If we float back a couple of decades, the standard Czech mash was
sitting at about 5.5-5.6. That was a lovely "maltose/dextrin" ratio to
may tastes. In the 90's there has been some changes made, and I was
shocked to sit at one of my favourite pubs a few years back, and be able
to taste a new "Thin emptiness" in the middle ground of a beer I knew
quite well, and to feel the slight tang of lactic acid, where other
flavours should have been..... Yep, my beloved Czecho has gone over to
the lactic acid trick, gaining maximum ammount of alcohol, per invested grain.

Now EVERY brewery I know that has converted to lactic acid additions,
has subsequently had to reduce their hopping rates. With less dextrins
to support the malt and sweet tones, the hopping becomes out of balance,
and must be reduced to match the less complex flavour in the bass.
Esters have inexplicably followed the same path, and you will no longer
have a Staropramen "flirt with your tongue with a taste of wild
strawberry, as it floats from the malty/butterscotch bass, to the
florality of the Saaz", or a Holesovice "presenting a distinct tone of
honey-dew melon layed on top of the thickness of body that spreads all
the way to the sides of the tongue".....(I only write that nonsense when
I'm well and truly tanked... just ask Richard Pass... I believe I was at
his dinner table when I belched out "The true colour of a stout is one
which you can watch a solar eclipse through... and miss it.")

So how much maltose and how much dextrin do you want?  Well the choice
is yours.  I don't mind 67/33. A commercial brewery would like 80/20. In
other words if I brew a "full bodied beer" (remembering the other
"crud", one does have to get to a certain OG for a chunky flavour) let's
say I pull it out at 1048.  I don't mind if it finishes at 1016.  I'll
tolerate it if it finishes at 1012. If it finishes at 1008, I've got one
of those things that I'm sitting on my backside with a silly grin on my
face, before I've sated enough taste buds to find out what I really think.

You touched on the Gypsum thing, and maybe I have just grown to accept
that flavour in English Ales (best example I've recently tasted is
"Green King IPA" where the ENTIRE ground between the subtle caramel
flavour and the thin hop bitteress is covered by the clean dry taste of
gypsum)... On the other hand, while I truly do enjoy the taste of Sauer
kraut and other lactic fermented vegatables; yoghourt, kefir, and other
lactic fermented milk products, I don't like that flavour at all in beers.

I believe you said you had a mash pH of 5.6? If I could get that with my
favourite grain combination (now this is where Jill should stop reading)
I'd carress myself in all manner of expression of joy. My favo comes in
at pre-zactly 5.2, which means I have to play all manner of tricks to
squeeze up the dextrin content so it doesn't become a "head spinner"...
If I just wanted the buzz, I could shoot some Foster's or go searching
your paddock for some "goldies"..... in fact I am quite beginning to
suspect that the bottle of skunk oil is simply a way of diverting folks
from your favourite harvesting area.

'natch the choice is yours, in how you want to make your "best beer",
but lactic balancing the pH will "thin" the flavour.

Dr. Pivo


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 05:46:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Phil Clarke <dogglebe at yahoo.com>
Subject: New York City Homebrewers Picnic

Just a reminder that the NYCHG's picnic is this Sunday
at Croton Point Park from noon to five o'clock.  Those
wishing to attend. but haven't notified me, please do
so by Friday.

Hope to see you there.

Phil

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:11:32 -0400
From: Bill.X.Wible at QuestDiagnostics.com
Subject: Jeff Renner's mild?




>"Patrick Michael Flahie" <flahiepa at pilot.msu.edu> wrote:

>It's still in my queue of things to brew -- along with Jeff Renner's mild
>recipe posted in May.

I knew there was something I liked about that Jeff Renner guy.
Pre-prohibition lager, now mild ale.  Jeff, any chance for a repost
of that mild recipe?  (Or send it to my email?)  Mild is one my
favorite styles to brew.  I'm always looking for new mild recipes.
Thanks.

Bill




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:19:11 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Hop n Gator

Just remember--you asked for it!

How They Did It:

I recently had lunch with a former brewer from Pittsburg Brewing Co. He
remembers it well--with a huge grimace on his face. They contracted with the
inventor of Gatorade for the syrups. It was like $50 a gallon in 1970's dollars.
They bought it by the 55-gallon drum... When ever they made it, it stunk up the
whole neighborhood. Apparently it had a wider area of olafactory distribution
than brewing beer did.

So how did they do it? 6-Row malt and brewers grits (60/40%) as the base to
about 1.056. Fermented down to 1.012. It was then filtered and the gatorade was
added in-line along with CO2 at that point. This sweetend it up to about
1.048!!! Hops? There were no hops in this beer at all. There were 2 or 3 IBUs to
the beer but that came from the yeast. The beer was then put in the filling tank
where they had to keep bubbling CO2 up from the bottom to keep the
Gatorade/sugar in solution. This meant they had to vent excess CO2 out the top,
thus creating a huge stench. It was bottled, canned or kegged then pasturized
the same day.

How We Could Do It:

Hop and Gator Recipe???

Batch size: 5.0
Brewer: Not Me
Style: Experimental

                 Date        Gravity   Plato
Brewing:  05/24/78  1.056       13.8
Racking:  1.012     3.0
Bottling: 1.048        12 ?????
Alcohol: 4.0% (w/w)
Alcohol: 5.0% (v/v)

Ingredients:
Cereal Mash--
6 Row     1.25 pounds    1.006 S.G.      0.3 SRM   60 min mash
Corn grits     3.6 pounds     1.019 S.G.      0.7 SRM   60 min mash
Main Mash--
6 Row     4.2 pounds     1.024 S.G.      0.9 SRM   60 min mash
Gatorade Mix--
Corn Sugar     3.3 lbs   1.030 S.G.      0.1 SRM
Citric Acid    1.7 ounce (lq)
Grapefruit Extract  4.1 ounce (lq)
Lemon Extract  0.4 ounce (lq)
4.16 oz of Kelcolaid (A foam aid) in 4oz water

Cereal Mashing comments
Cereal Mash: If you are prone to adding Gypsum to water, please do so at your
regular amounts. PBC tried to hit 60 ppm Ca. Split the gypsum addition between
cereal and main mashes. Dough-in at 120F raise to 158F in 15 min and rest 15
min. Raise to boiling in 20 min. (Meanwhile dough in main mash) Boil cereal mash
20 min and add to previously started Main Mash.
Mash water amount: 7.0 qts
Strike temperature: 120 ?Fahrenheit

Cereal Mashing schedule
minutes   ?Fahrenheit
  1  120
15   158
30   158
50   212
70   212
40   113
70   113
75   155
90   155
112  157
117  157

Main Mashing comments
Main Mash Dough in with 112F water 30 min before adding cereal mash to hit 112F.
Add Cereal Mash and fire to hit155.5F for 15 min. Mashoff to 167F 5 min.  Boil 1
hr whirlpool 1/2 hour

Mashing schedule
minutes   ?Fahrenheit
 0   112
30   112
55   155
70   155
87   167
93   167

Hop Schedule:
None!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I repeat there are No Hops in Hop and Gator

Wyeast #2035 American Lager 2.0 liter starter or larger!!! This yeast or Ayinger
which is my favorite. Who knows what yeast they are using now... If you can get
it, use their yeast. This might be the only time you can use any kind of yeast
you want. Well, don't use a belgian yeast, but anything remotely close to
neutral will do just fine.

Fermentation
Ferment no higher than 69F 7-10 days , lager at 53.5F 7 days, Filter? rest 3
days (This is what PBC did, doesn't mean you have to. Do what is best for your
yeast selection.) Kelcolaid is a foaming agent. Beer still has to have a head on
it, ya know!! At end of Lagering add 1.25 tsp potassium sorbate to beer. Beer
must be forced carbonated after the addition of the Gator Juice.

Gator Juice Recipe
Ingredients:
Citric Acid    1.7 liquid ounces
Isomerase (Corn Syrup) 3.3 lbs (if you believe the numbers)
Grapefruit Extract 4.1 ounce
Lemon Extract 0.4 ounce
4.16 oz of Kelcolaid in 1 quart water
Mix water amount: 0.5 gal

Mixing Comments:
1 add acid to 0.6 qts h20
2 add isomerase (corn Syrup)
3 add grapefruit
4 add lemon
5 add kelcolaid (Foam producer)
6 add to 4.5 gallons of beer
7 pasturize or add 1.25 tsp potassium sorbate
8 carbonate
9 drink or water the flowerbed--whichever seems more appropriate at the
time...Phil

Alternative Method:
Use the Dry Gatorade mix that sweetens with Nutrasweet. Mix it in to taste, I
have no idea on amounts. This would still let you bottle condition with corn
sugar priming. If it got sweet enough with just the gatorade, which I dont think
it would, you would still need to add corn sugar (Karo syrup) to it to get to
the original sweetness. 1.048 FINAL GRAVITY!!! That is rediculously high!!!!!
But that is what the numbers come out too!

People used to take this stuff and add a shot of whisky to it to make a mixed
drink! For a short while it out sold Iron City Lager!!! Big hair and disco must
have made us really stupid!!!

Phil Wilcox
Poison Frog Home Brewer
Warden-Prison City Brewers
In Jackson, MI 32 Mi. West of Jeff Renner
AABG, AHA, BJCP, HBD, MCAB, ETC., ad nausium...
If you come to the AHA Conference, I promise I won't bring any with me! ;<)




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 23:13:44 +0930
From: "Dave Edwards" <eddiedb at senet.com.au>
Subject: Pride of Ringwood

G'day,
Bill Wible wrote this about his hop additions for a Fosters clone:
|  .5 oz   Pride of Ringwood    6.8%    60 min
|  .5 oz   Pride of RIngwood    6.8%    30 min

My question is where the hell does he buy his hops? You don't get PoR here
in SA at  less than 9% AAU, and most are about 10 or 11 %. Maybe it's just
something to do with the way that most of the hops in Oz and NZ have much
higher acid than their northern relatives.

Also Aussie Rules, apart from being a truly AUSTALIAN game, is the REAL MANS
game. For a start Aussie rules lads DO NOT wear padding, and still belt the
crap out of each other, But it's more than that, it involves brains, skill,
finness and levels of fitness that Rugby players can only dream about. All
that they do is put PADDING ON , and stand in a line and try to hit each
other so as to stop the opposition from running into their territory.

Just having a lend of you blokes anyhow, all three codes are pretty good,
after all I have to admit, I stayed up into the wee hours of the morning
watching the mighty wallabies anihilate anything in their path.

Cheers,
Dave.



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:25:14 -0400
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: a doctor of /what?/

Steve wrote to doc Pivo:

" I have noticed that in your field physicians
are not required to personally contract every disease they treat,"

Wait a minute, are you telling me that old doc Pivo is a /medical/ doc??
Shudder.

 -Alan Meeker
 Baltimore, MD (that's Maryland, not M.D.)




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:40:38 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Mort O'Sullivan 

Jeff Renner's post reminded me ...
>From: "Mort O'Sullivan" <tarwater at brew-master.com>
>Subject: RE: crystal malt: call for discussion

Does anyone know how to get in touch with Mort ?
Last I heard he was in N.Y. somewhere.

 -S





Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:41:43 -0400
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: more HSA

While the HSA thread continues to unravel here I thought I'd bring up
something I haven't seen mentioned yet, namely the increased rate of
reaction between atmospheric oxygen and wort as the temperature increases.
Several people have pointed out (correctly) that during the boil the
solubility of oxygen is, for all practical purposes, zero. This fact has
been used by some in support of the idea that there is therefore no
potential for HSA to occur /during/ the boil since there will be no
dissolved oxygen present in solution. What I wonder is whether or not HSA
might still be possible at the liquid/gas interface. The old rule of thumb
that chemical reaction rates roughly double for every 10 degC increase in
temperature imply that oxidation rates could increase about 100-fold or more
at boiling temps compared to room temp. During the boil the only place the
wort has the potential to be exposed to gaseous oxygen is at the surface.
Could this be a problem? I don't know but since I have taken to conducting
open boils outside I have wondered about this. There is certainly plenty of
opportunity for lots of wort surface area exposure to air with a 60-90
minute roiling boil in windy conditions. Any thoughts from the hard-core
chemistry crew out there?

 -Alan Meeker




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 09:56:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Shick <SHICK at JCVAXA.jcu.edu>
Subject: CACA vs Genny clone

 


Hello all,

	A quick follow up to Patrick Flahie's comments about using 
a Classic American Cream Ale (CACA) recipe as a starting point toward 
a Genny Cream Ale clone:  Genny is far from "classic" in that it's much 
lower in bitterness and somewhat lower in gravity than a CACA (or at 
least my version of one.  Others might prefer a lighter version.)  Genny 
seems to be the model for a modern cream ale, coming in at about 20 IBU 
and 1.046 or so OG.  

	Scott Abene has posted a number of attempts at a Genny-like
cream ale on his www.brewrats.org site.  He's apparently quite happy
with the latest version, posted about a year ago.

   			Paul Shick 
 			Basement brewing in Cleveland Hts OH

 



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:10:30 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Lactic?

Thanks to AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com> for a good, clear summary of the
reaction which occurs:

>when hard, alkaline water is
>boiled and in particular when it's been supplemented with CaCl2 (which
>he does) during or after the boiling process.

However, his misgivings:
>At the risk of answering the wrong question

were appropriate.  I didn't make my question clear enough.  I would like to
know the reaction which occurs and what (if anything) happens to the Ca++
when lactic acid is added to the same water to lower its pH, as an
alternative to boiling and decanting it prior to using it for mashing and
sparging.  Is this a good alternative to boiling and decanting of liming?

>Jeff mentions that he doesn't like adding a calcium salt because the
>desired extra calcium comes paired with an undesired anion. Use lime!

This is what the Ann Arbor water treatment plant does, and why the micro
that gave us the lactic acid discovered it didn't need it.  Of course, the
water treatment plant doesn't do this for the convenience of brewers, but
rather to soften the water.  It leaves enough Ca++ for brewing, 37 ppm, but
just barely.

Jeffe

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:40:57 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Beechwood Chip Usage at A-B 

Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu> asks

>
>Wait a minute.  Are you saying that if they didn't use the chips, the
>yeast would settle EVEN FASTER, and there would be EVEN MORE
>acetaldehyde?!?!

No, the chips make the beer clear more quickly, because each yeast cell (or
flocculated clump) has far less distance to fall before settling on a
surface than it would if it had to settle all the way to the bottom.  There
may also be some actual attraction of the yeast to the chips.

>Wow.  All this time I've been blaming the beechwood for helping the
>yeast to floc faster, and thus contributing to the acetaldehyde.  If
>you're right (and I have no reason to doubt Michalak's statement),
>then I've had it exactly backwards.

There's lots more surface area of yeast exposed to metabolize the
acetaldehyde than if it all settled to the bottom.  However, I don't
remember Steve mentioning this and I'm not sure if the acetaldehyde is
reduced by contact with the yeast or not.  They were very circumspect about
acetaldehyde, maybe even sensitive to the subject.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:13:57 -0400
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: crystal unfermentables


Charley wrote asking about the flavorings in crystal malts..

>Seems that the non-fermentable sugars then are complex molecules of long
>length, similar to the dextrins we've known about for some time.  But
dextrin
>has no flavor (read that somewhere and tasted some "dextrin powder" one
>time). Yet carmelized sugurs in Crystal malt has a lot of flavor. Wonderful
>flavors in fact. And I've always wondered how they get through to the final
>product if they ARE fermentable. Seems like fermentation would
significantly
>alter or eliminate those flavors.

For the malt sugars, there are two broad types of chemical reactions (both
of which are complex) occuring to
produce those wonderful flavors we get in crystal malts. First there is
carmelization, which occurs when sugars are heated producing a complex
mixture of products ranging from low MW to larger polymers. Second there are
the Maillard reactions in which ammonium ions or amine groups (e.g. - from
amino acids) add to sugar carbonyls forming "Amadori products" which then
undergo a complex and poorly characterized series of reactions leading again
to yet another complex mixture of products. The modifications that take
place result in many compounds that aren't utilizable by the yeasts.

In both cases the result is darkening of color and a spectrum of aromas and
tastes. Both of these reactions are taking place during the production of
crystal malts and in decoctions and the kettle boil as well.

>The point here is what? I think I created the crystal malt flavor and color
>without the crystal malt. I was trying to replicate the Traquir recipe and
>process from the reading I had done in several publications (Michael
>Jackson's book was one of them).
>Is this creating the same flavor compounds as kilning the stewed malt to
make
>crystal?

Yes, you are creating some of the same compounds but probably not the same
exact spectrum and proportions of them. There are MANY variables involved
which will impact the resultant character of a given sample of crystal malt,
which is of course why they taste different from one another when you sample
them.

>Is it possible to create our own "crystal malt extract" by this process?
>Could it be stored and used in future brews? Would it cost more than its
>worth?

An interesting idea, give it a try!

 -Alan Meeker
Lazy Eight Brewery  - "Where the possibilities are infinite."
Baltimore, MD





Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:17:53 -0400
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject:  mash pH




Nathan:

 >Isn't a pH meter just measuring the conductivity of
 >the solution? I've suspected the water source myself for a couple of
years.
 >I've tried difference sources and always come out with about the same
 >pH on what is sold as distilled water. I came across on source selling
 >"distilled water" that says "prepared by ozonation." I didn't bother

 Not exactly, the pH electrode must selectively measure only protons (or
 hydronium ions if you prefer). The water's conductivity will depend on all
 the ionic species present. What AJ is getting at is whether or not there
are
 sufficient concentrations of contaminating ions in the water to explain the
 anomalous pH reading. Such contaminants could come from improper
 purification or handling, or from the storage containers. Depending on the
 system being used this problem isn't unherard of unfortunately.

 > .....point of
 >the experiment...{will 150 ppm Ca++ adjust a pale malt mash to normal pH}.
 >It was really a silly experiment since so many sources say Ca ++ at 50 to
 >150ppm
 >will bring about an properly adjusted mash pH. (unless the water is highly
 >carbonate)

 I don't think it's that silly. In fact, one of the things that caught my
eye
 when I read Fix's new book were statements to the effect that standard
 mashes using pale malt might not come to optimum pH without further
 adjustments. This deserves looking into further...

 -Alan Meeker
 Baltimore, MD



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 10:22:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Shick <SHICK at JCVAXA.jcu.edu>
Subject: HSA challenge

 


Hello all,

	Steve Alexander posts a very detailed challenge concerning
an experiment to determine whether or not the HSA boogyman can be
detected.  I think Steve's procedure outline is a great starting 
point for such a trial.  Further, I really like his suggestion of 
using a Bock or a Marzen (although I might prefer a Vienna, myself.)
Both styles have enough (somewhat) dark malts to be susceptible to
HSA (if it exists,) but shouldn't overpower tasters with tons of
esters or bitterness.  

	I might also suggest that the beers be bottle-conditioned,
in an effort to minimize cold side aeration effects.

	I would even be willing to perform the experiment myself,
on the condition that we agree in advance to eliminate the betting
aspect that Steve and Dr. Pivo have injected into the discussion.
My feeling is that we're all on the same side here:  we all want to
know what's important in making good beer and what factors can be
ignored.  Of course we'll have disagreements and arguments about 
various aspects of the craft, but I hope that we can keep these from
turning into personal attacks.

	So, in short, I'm volunteering to be the "competent lager 
brewer" Steve asks for (I can trot out my modest credentials if 
needed,) _IF_ he and Dr. Pivo can agree to rule out any stakes, both
personal and monetary.

	If nothing else, this might give me a nice excuse to brew
20 gallons of a nice lager to share with others -- always a fun
thing.
                                                               

   			Paul Shick 
 			Basement brewing in Cleveland Hts OH

 



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 07:42:02 -0700
From: Jonathan Peakall <jpeakall at mcn.org>
Subject: RE: Absolute Best Advice

In mild response to Patrick.

I think you misunderstood my point to the good Doctor. I was saying that
just because someone hasn't tried something personally doesn't mean you
should dismiss their ideas. The roto till thing was Doc's simile. I was
commenting on investigating even an idiot's advice if it sounds like it
could be true. And because I like to encourage the Doc and Phil to post,
as it adds a little flavor to my morning HBD. It really wasn't meant as
a "roto till is horrible and you should never ever use one" post.

That said, while I won't say (and never did) there is no soil type or
area one shouldn't till annually, I will say there are probably few. I
personally have gardened in very clay soil, and after two years never
needed to till. I currently garden in what is known of as "pygmy soil",
a very unusual clay and acid soil that is so crappy that a pine tree 15
feet tall can be over 100 years old. I doubt there is any soil nastier.
The fact that Ag folks and "Master Gardeners" in your area don't agree
doesn't faze me a bit. Old methods can die hard. No offense, but I bet
you haven't tried a non till program, whereas I have both tilled and non
tilled. You say you doubt I have gardened any where but my neck of the
woods because my methods aren't the ones you use. Not so, Patrick. There
are only two subjects on earth I feel qualified to have an opinion
about, sailing and gardening, and that's because I've done both my whole
life, and done both for a living at various times.

Anyway Patrick, have fun gardening your way. The focus of my original
post really wasn't roto tilling! I wasn't trying to crow my "Gardening
Expertise"! It had nothing to do with "The Absolute Best Advice"! I bet
your garden does great, and I wish you a good season. And if you would
ever like to stop tilling (just too much work, as well as unnecessary
and not good for your soil) drop me a line and I'll tell ya the lazy man
way.


>>In mild response to Johnathon Peakall and his Gardening Expertise.

>>It is obvious that you have not gardened in my neck of the woods, or
maybe
even in any but your own. To risk another 'blanket' or even assenine
'absolute' statement.
All the gardeners around here must rototill or make bricks. Master
gardeners,
Ag. extension advisors, and the like all rototill.  Reportedly, and in
my
experience, the earthworms survive and the mulches (yes we 'do' organic)
get
down into our clay and caliche soil all the way into the root zone.

One of the few things I still say with absolute authority and
unchallenged
certainty at
this stage of my life is "Never say never and hardly ever say always".
We can't all be right about every thing all the time.
Have a great day, loosen your bowtie, and 'Relax, don't worry, have a
homebrew." Patrick be kickin' back now.<<



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 12:57:14 -0400
From: Aaron Perry <vspbcb at earthlink.net>
Subject: more favorites

I was interested in the strong response to the Foster's recipe.
I can't help but want to stir up such a response here in the U.S.
I'm working on a Schaefer recipe. Seeing as Memorial Day just passed, I'd been
thinking about my Grandfater. and his Favorite (translated - only) brand of
beer. I
thought it would be fun, and challenging to brew up a commemerative batch. Any
insight? Brewery specifics?

TIA
A.P.


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 11:24:59 -0600
From: "NATHAN T Moore" <NTMOORE at SMTPGATE.DPHE.STATE.CO.US>
Subject: Reconditioned wine barrels/Micro Barrels

There is a legend that somewhere out there exists coopers that
take used wine barrels staves, shave them down, and make 
smaller barrels (10 gallons and less) out of them.  At a few 
locations on the web I have seen reference to a company called 
Micro Barrels in California, but I cant seem to get an answer when 
I try to call them (I have been trying for several weeks now).  
Does anyone know about this company and if they are still doing 
business (and if they are, how to contact them)?  Or, does 
anyone know of any other coopers doing this?  There is a 2.5 
gallon oak keg that is claimed to be mad from reconditioned french 
oak barrels on e-bay (search for "french oak barrel".  I contacted 
the seller and they have 100 or so of these that they purchased 
and it sounds like there will be several going up for auction, 
however, the quality of these is questionable, they said the staves 
have not been shaved (meaning you will have an affect from 
whatever was in there before, if they actually know what 
they are talking about) and they would not reply to my 
question about toasting, they just told me to buy one and find 
out.  If anyone buy one, please let me know what you get.

Thanks for any help
Nate




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:45:46 -0700
From: "Aaron Sepanski" <madaarjul at earthlink.net>
Subject: Phos sources

If you are looking for Phosphoric acid sources, contact your local chemical
companies.  In the Milwaukee are there are two major chemical companies,
Ace, and Hydrite.

I'm certain since these companies aren't national that other exist.

You may get some questions asking what you are using it for, but if you
explain your use they should sell it to you.  I even use it (among other
things) to sanitize counter tops at home.

It is very safe with responsible handling and non-toxic.  We use it at work
to acid wash our yeast.  It is an ingredient in just about every major
soda, to provide tartness.



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:53:30 -0700
From: "Aaron Sepanski" <madaarjul at earthlink.net>
Subject: Saturated hard water

I stand corrected.  I inappropriately used to term saturation.  What I
meant to imply was that in a solution high in calcium, adding more will not
be beneficial.  Dave was exactly right.

I'm sorry if I made anyone confused.  Some times I write these things in a
hurry.



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:9:52 -0700
From: "Aaron Sepanski" <madaarjul at earthlink.net>
Subject: Specific Gravity to Plato

When converting SG to Plato, divide by four, essentially.

Really, subtract 1.000, then divide by four, then multiply by one thousand.


Like this...

1.048 SG, in Plato equals...

1.048-1.000=.048

 .048/4=.012

 .012*1000= 12

12 degrees Plato.

So when a Pilsner say it is 12 Plato, it means the starting gravity was
1.048, which is a Pilsner that is right on for the OG.

If it ferments down to 1.012, then it is called a perfect Pilsner.

If anyone is interested in a table concerning these measurements which will
make eliminate the math necessary for conversion, check out "The
Brewmasters' Bible."  It's on page 354.  It is really for the home
Brewmasters, which makes it a good source.



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 14:10:20 -0400
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: More confusion

Two people wrote to me privately about a goof in the post on the Plato
scale. I misread the ASBC tables in coming up with the example numbers,
realized that I'd done it but only corrected in one place instead of the
three. Thus 12P corresponds to 1.048 specific gravity (and this is the
ratio of the weight of wort at 20C to the weight of an equal volume of
water at 20C). For the second time in as many days I apologize for any
conusion caused.



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 14:32:20 -0400
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Jeff's Question

Now that I know what Jeff's question really is I can take another whack
at it. In yesterday's answer to the wrong question we looked at how
water pH is reduced through a mechanism which involves the precipitation
of calcium carbonate. Where mash pH is lowered through the agency of
direct acid addition there is no conversion of bicarbonate to carbonate
and, thus, no coalescing of carbonate and Ca++ to fall out of solution.
Quite the other way, in fact, bicarbonate is converted to carbonic. If
any chalk precipitate had begun to form, it would redissolve. Thus
rather than a reduction in calcium ion concentration there is no change
or a slight increase. Whether this is a better way to compensate for
high bicarbonate is arguable. With acid the alkalinity is simply
neutralized which means that much of it is converted to carbonic. This
carbonic will be driven off in the kettle eventually but if the original
bicarbonate level were very high there would be some residual even after
adjustmemt of mash pH to a comfortable value. Some authors (DeClerk, in
particular) find bicarbonatae treated in this way to be objectioanble in
taste. Boiling or lime treatement actually remove much of the
bicarbonate so that at mash pH very little remains. When acid is used,
there is an anion to consider (lactic in this case). These ions nearly
always have a flavor impact so unless the job can be done with very
small quantities this is sometimes a concern. Sometimes it works for
you. If you would like to sharpen the hops presence in an ale and at the
same time round the fullness, alkalinity reduction can be done very
nicely with hydrochloric and sulfuric acids. Tart beers, such as wits,
Weisse's and even Weizen's benefit from a twinge of lactic in them. In
other situations the presence of the anion may be inappropriate.



Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:01:38 -0400 
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: genny cream ale and maris otter

Somebody recently asked for Genny Cream ale recipes.  Even growing up in NY
I had never tasted one until about 2 years ago.  Thus began a Xmas tradition
that amounted to having one Genny Cream ale annually during a work lunch
hour with a friend who professes having grown up on it. Too bad the local
neighborhood bar that we went to just closed a few months ago.  have to find
a close by place for next years outting.  Anyways, if you search the digest
on the may 11, 2000 issue you will find a recipe for Genny Cream Ale.  Not
mine, but FYI.  Its a 15 gallon batch, Wyeast 2035 yeast, Liberty hops, and
mostly lager malt, maize, and munich/vienna for body.  Good luck!!

Thanks for all the maris Otter info a few weeks ago.  I did infact purchase
a sack of Muntons marris Otter.  I contacted muntons in the UK and they
reply that their MO is not floor malted due to cost issues.  I also recently
got some Hugh baird (also not floor malted) and intend to test the two for
discernable differences.  No triangle testing though ;)  i also plan to get
some Beestons to try out since many have replied that it is their favorite
and fairly available as floor malted.

thanks for the great resource,

Pete czerpak
albany, NY


Return to table of contents

---