---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  re: Mash-out/foam rest/mash pH retry ("Stephen Alexander")
  St. Louis BrewPubs ("FatCat")
  Ahhh... Genny Cream (Scott Abene)
  heat of fermentation ("Dan Diana")
  Heartburn & High Blood Pressure (Epic8383)
  Re: a doctor of /what?/ ("Richard Pass")
  Re: Reconditioned wine barrels/Micro Barrels (phil sides jr)
  Spent Grain Carbohydrate Content (mchahn)
  HSA ("Stephen Alexander")
  Poofters And Bandicoots ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Yeast Propagation (Todd Goodman)
  Father/Grandfather favorites (John Adsit)
  Oxidation of Boiling Wort (Dave Burley)
  HBD  at  NHC? (Mark_Ohrstrom/Humphrey_Products)
  Re: Pride of Ringwood Hops (Bill.X.Wible)
  Hot Mash Percolators ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Growing Hops (Todd Goodman)
  Schaefer (Bill.X.Wible)
  Re: Jeff Renner's mild? (Jeff Renner)
  Schaefer, was: more favorites (Jeff Renner)
  a lactic acid question for Doc Pivo (Robin Griller)
  Grr...F# at &*G Spider Mites ("Spies, Jay")
  phosphoric/floor malting/Zatec ("St. Patrick's")
  re: Hop and Gator ("Mark Tumarkin")


* Don't miss the 2000 AHA NHC in Livonia, MI 
* 6/22 through 6/24 http://hbd.org/miy2k

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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:14:11 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Mash-out/foam rest/mash pH retry

Nathaniel P. Lansing (hope 'Del' is OK) wrote ...

>The difference in fermentability comes
>not from the denaturing of BA but from the also increased action of
>AA. [...]

No.  Each enzyme increases activity (almost)  the same as temps increase.
If denaturing wasn't significant the alpha-:beta-amylase product ratio would
be the same at 60C as 75C and so would the mix of saccharides.  Obviously
not true ... different fermentability. Denaturing is the factor.

I promise I will shortly make a more extensive post re: enzyme kinetics.

==
>> No source calls 71C mashout.<<
>  Two professional brewers (1 Weihenstephen graduate) and a malster
>  I spoke to call it mash out.

Ask 'em to re-read pp222 of Kunze where 74C is
"saccharification rest", and 78C is "mash off" (mashout).
71C isn't mashout and 75C is marginal, below text values.
==

>If people aren't mashing out then they are indeed
>not utilizing the proteins available to produce a lasting head and clinging
>lace.

Equally, If people aren't peptidase resting then they are not utilizing all
the amino acids available for yeast growth - not needed for high beer
quality either.

This protein produced during the mash is not identical with, only correlated
to beer foam.  You must understand ALL, not just 1 mechanism for this, and
the other foam correlates.

Assuming that a certain protein in mash is equivalent to beer foam is Del's
extrapolation that deserves challenge.

==

>There is nothing abnormal with the mash in the experiment cited.

I *think* I almost agree now, but Del's terse description was misleading.
He failed to correct the misunderstanding in my response - his own fault.

>Method- [...] the mash held at 60 C for
>               20 minutes, then raised to 68 C for 90 minutes, 71 C for 90
>minutes, 73 [...]
Meant several mashes were performed, each was held 20' at 60C then each at one
higher temp for 90'. My old interp was a single mash at 60C then 68C then
71C ... .

The statements of yield in mg/L ... Was it *increase* or *total* yield ? Was
it final yield or at 30'  ? I now *think* he meant the total conc of the
critical protein fraction (CPF) at 30' point in the rest.

If now correct (Del?) I agree the mash isn't wildly odd..

==

Del (?) reports CPF at 30' into high temp rest  = 50' after mash-in.  Not
unreasonable, tho'  longer time periods and different schedules would be
relevant *IF* the CPFs form during sparge or heating to boil.  The paper
measures CPF and foam of sweet unboiled wort, not beer, right ?.

My objections to the brewing comparison:  Isohumulones and hop phenolics are
important to beer foam stability but probably absent.  A boil will remove
some CPFs perhaps selectively, but there was probably no boil.  The Congress
method uses a sub-1mm plate grind.  Congress uses a ~2qt/lb at mash-in +
~1qt/lb for sacchar rest.  Del omits mention of additional water, but
Congress mash is very thin ... impacts enzyme activity.  Does 20 at 60C+30' at 75C
model a mash + mashout accurately ?

Do CPFs originate in the mash grist or from soluble proteins ?  Does their
release continue thru the sparge and boil heating ? Are they are released
due to thermal or enzyme factors ? If enzyme, then what are denaturing &
activity temp characteristics ? How much CPFs are needed for appropriate
head (You want milds looking like wheats?) ? What  determines survival of
CPFs thru the boil and fermentation and into beer.  What limits CPFs during
mash ?

There's no clear case that mashout is *necessary* for good head/foam.

Nathaniel chose to focus on pH.  I agree that 120ppm of calcium sulfate (but
is that the experiment's method ?) should push the wort towards brewing pH.
But pH=5.5 and 2qt/lb isn't typical and 3qt/lb is just weird.

The abstract of the paper says CPF are dependent on barley variety, growing
conditions,  malting and the mashing technique. It'd be interesting to see
the variations due to other factors. It says (ELISA) protein assay is
sufficient to measure CFP, notes sources of variation and suggests controlli
ng for the variations when characterizing malt.  It's a study of malt
evaluation and NOT of practical mashing method consequences, tho' it has
implications. I doubt it made conclusions about the amounts in beer, or that
they even boiled and hopped their wort, much less fermented it.

==
>I see, your basement brewery is a more significant source of brewing
>technology than the Beer Research Institute, Suntory Ltd.

Since I *NEVER* used my home experiment to contradict any conclusion in the
Suntory paper, the statement above is a blatant misrepresentation.  I hope
that Del hasn't similarly misrepresented the Suntory paper's contents.

>It sure sounds like you try to refute the reseach labs finding at every
>turn!!

Please give a quote or retract this Del.  I never challenged the conclusion
of the Suntory study. I rejected Del's extrapolations of the result.

==

>After 1/2 hour at 68 C or 71 or 75 [...] 85/145=58%
>increase of foam + glyco-proteins; significant I would say.

Not significant to beer foam unless you also know levels after hops, boil,
fermentation, fining and filtering, and the impact of other foam related
factors.

==
To encapsulate my position -
1/ I've repeatedly had good foam/head w/o mashout.
  so mashout is not *necessary* for normal foam/head under
   such conditions. I reject Del's  comment when he writes of my
   no-mashouts that foam "may be 'adequate' ".  There is no "may be"
   about it and the pejoritive 'adequate' isn't accurate.
2/ I did NOT say that additional foam positive proteins weren't formed
   during high temp rests or in any way deny the Suntory conclusions
   as I know them.
3/ I am open to the *speculation* that Del proposes, that a higher temp
   rest can increase BEER foam under some conditions as a result of
   increased  mash CPF.  It's even likely.  This doesn't change my
   position from 1/ above, nor contradict my posts.
4/ I am NOT an advocate of no-mashout brewing in general, despite the
   mischaracterization.

Most of all I hope that Del will read and report on what he reads, more
frequently.  I like to do this and I think it's important.  I've certainly
learned some additional thing from the hurley-burley discussion here.  I
also like to post speculation based on reading, but I *hope* I do a good job
of distinguishing.  Obviously certain individuals (not Del) can't
distinguish no matter how one writes.

I also hope that Del and I haven't fabricated a disagreement where none
exists. (High temp rests increase mash CPFs) vs (mashout not necessary for
normal head/foam) is NOT contradictory, tho' paradoxical. I fear it may be
the case.

If nothing else it underlines the importance of differentiating report and
speculation when reading and writing.

'nuff said, needs to go offline or die.
==

As to the pH in Dels home experiment.  It was, and still is the distilled
water+pils-grist reading  (pH 4.78) that is the elephant at the table.
Another HBD reader has offered to repeat and perhaps extend this test.

 -S





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Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 21:44:25 0100
From: "FatCat" <fatcat at homebrew.com>
Subject: St. Louis BrewPubs

In St. Louis.  No car.
Staying near Arch.
Any suggestions?
E-mail fine

Thanks.


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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 18:34:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Abene <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: Ahhh... Genny Cream

What a fantastic beer... 

Please accept my take on this excellent brew. 

Genesee was recently sold. They were the 5th largest brewery in the
country at the time... 

Let's hope that the new owners keep this beer the way it should be. 

Gennesee My Butt! (All Grain) 15.5 US Gallons 

Brewing Method: All Grain
Yeast: WYEAST 2035
Yeast Starter: 1/2 gallon 
Batch Size: 15.5 US Gallons
Original Gravity: 1.049
Final Gravity: 1.010
Alcohol Content: 4.5-5.0 %
Total Grains: 30
Color: 4.4
Extract Efficiency: 75 %
Hop IBU's: 22.9
Boiling Time: 70 minutes
Primary Fermentation: 7 days at 62f
Secondary Fermentation: 7 days at 58f
Additional Fermentation: lagered in corny keg

Grain Bill: 

Grain %  Amount     Name                      Origin        Gravity
Color
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
 56.7    17.00 lbs. Lager Malt(6-row)         Canada         1.031   
 1
 20.0     6.00 lbs. Flaked Corn (Maize)       America        1.040   
 1
 10.0     3.00 lbs. Vienna Malt               America        1.035   
 4
  6.7     2.00 lbs. Munich Malt(light)        America        1.033   
10
  6.7     2.00 lbs. Crystal 10L               America        1.035   
10

Hop Bill: 


Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
4.00 oz. Liberty Whole 3.40 19.6 60 min.
4.00 oz. Liberty Whole 3.40 3.3 5 min.

Mash Schedule: 

Mash Type: Single Step
Saccharification Rest Temp : 152 Time: 90
Mash-out Rest Temp : 166 Time: 10
Sparge Temp : 170 Time: 70

Brewers Notes: 

Side by side test was a dead ringer... Very nice brew

=====
ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT
Scott Abene <skotrat at mediaone.net>
http://www.skotrat.com (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page)

"The More I know about beer politics, The more I wish I made 120k"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com


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Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:39:47 -0700
From: "Dan Diana" <dands at ftconnect.com>
Subject: heat of fermentation



Can anyone out there resolve a discrepancy between two references? I am
trying to find a reasonable estimate of the heat generated during
fermentation. DeClerck's A Textbook of Brewing (Vol1, p. 420) provides a
value of 178 calories/kg sugar. In contrast, MBAA's Practical Brewer (p.
165) provides an esitmate of 160 Kcal/KG sugar. The numerical values are
reasonably close but I am really unclear on which units to believe. A three
order of magnitude difference leads me to believe one is a typo, but which
one?

I have a feeling from previous reading that DeClerck's units sometimes are
not correct. Has anyone else observed the same thing?
Thanks,
Dan Diana



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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:55:26 EDT
From: Epic8383 at aol.com
Subject: Heartburn & High Blood Pressure

     A friend of mine (about 60 yrs. old) has been told by his physician that 
he shouldn't drink beer because it will aggravate his high blood pressure 
problem. The doctor demonstrated the effect as he took my friend's blood 
pressure before and after drinking a 7 oz. Bud. The doctor told him that hard 
liquor won't hurt (in moderation), but beer is a no-no.
     I seem to get heartburn after drinking highly hopped beers. I have no 
other such reaction to any other foods, regardless of how spicy they may be.
     Anybody have any insight into these problems?
          Gus


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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:03:55 +1000
From: "Richard Pass" <richard.pass at anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: a doctor of /what?/

"Alan Meeker" wrote

>Steve wrote to doc Pivo:

>>" I have noticed that in your field physicians
>>are not required to personally contract every disease they treat,"

>Wait a minute, are you telling me that old doc Pivo is a /medical/ doc??
>Shudder.

 >-Alan Meeker
 >Baltimore, MD (that's Maryland, not M.D.)

He sure is Alan, and last time he was out this way it was all I could do to
prevent him demonstrating his liver transplant technique after dinner.  He
was most persuasive (he'd convinced me that my liver was almost certainly
very tired) and it was only after I pointed out that there was a reasonable
chance that I and Ziggy (my German Shepherd) may be of different tissue
types and that, anyway, it was getting late, that he agreed to put it off
for another day.

Pass-the-bottle




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Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 02:17:33 -0400
From: phil sides jr <psides at technologist.com>
Subject: Re: Reconditioned wine barrels/Micro Barrels

"NATHAN T Moore" <NTMOORE at SMTPGATE.DPHE.STATE.CO.US> asks:

>smaller barrels (10 gallons and less) out of them.  At a few
>locations on the web I have seen reference to a company called
>Micro Barrels in California, but I cant seem to get an answer when
>I try to call them (I have been trying for several weeks now).
>Does anyone know about this company and if they are still doing
>business (and if they are, how to contact them)?  Or, does
>anyone know of any other coopers doing this?  There is a 2.5

Nathan,
You do know you can buy new ones in 5 and 7.5 gallon sizes, right?

Also, I found this below.  Not sure how current the info is but I found
it at :
http://www.stanford.edu/~jeremybb/lambic/materials.html

Napa Fermentations
(707) 255-6372
Both European and American oak

Demptos Napa Cooperage
(707) 257-2628
European oak only

Independent Stave Co.
(417) 588-4151
American Oak only

Seguin Moreau Cooperage
(707) 252-3408
European oak only

Tonnellerie Vicard
(707) 257-3582

Tonnellerie Radoux
(415) 457-3955

Tonnellerie Francaise
(707) 942-9301

Tonnellerie Mercier
(804) 493-9186

Les Tonnelleries de Bourgogne
(707) 257-3582

Stefanich
(415) 665-1885

Stavin
(415) 331-7849

Pradel Barrels
(707) 944-8720

Mel Knox Barrel
(415) 751-6806

Custom Cooperage
(707) 996-8781

Cork Associates
(707) 224-6000

Boswell Co.
(415) 457-3955

Blue Grass Cooperage
(415) 331-5734

Barrel Builders
(707) 942-4291

Barrel Specialties
(707) 553-9707
Make 30 gallon barrels from used 50 gallon ones.

Micro Barrels/Jason Buttler
(707) 942-1521
Make custom-size small barrels from used large ones.

Phil Sides, Jr.
Concord, NH
- --
F u cn rd ths u cnt spl wrth a dm!




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Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 04:43:57 -0400
From: mchahn at earthlink.net
Subject: Spent Grain Carbohydrate Content

Does anybody know the carb content of spent grain, or how one would
calculate this? Private emails ok. TIA.


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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 05:08:42 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: HSA

Aaron Sepanski cautions me ...

>Before I made any bets, I'd try it myself.
Wouldn't be a fair bet w/o the uncertainty tho'.

see my comments below to Alan Meeker re
the HSA vs bottle oxygen issue.  They
result in different problems.

>There is a famous article published about three and a half years
>ago if I am correct by a prof. from the Siebel Institute.
I'd like to see it if you have any more detail.

>This was surprising to me at first, but then I learned of a Brewery in
>England that deliberately aerates hot wort.

Right, I've seen pictures of this.  Reportedly the traditional breweries
(several) that practice this make great beer while it's young, but it ages
to an old boot flavor in short order and doesn't 'travel' well at all.
===

Alan Meeker says ...

>Wait a minute, are you telling me that old doc Pivo is a /medical/ doc??
>Shudder.
I hope so, he reported digging infected tissue out of a knee a bit ago.

>something I haven't seen mentioned yet, namely the increased rate of
>reaction between atmospheric oxygen and wort as the temperature increases.
>Several people have pointed out (correctly) that during the boil the
>solubility of oxygen is, for all practical purposes, zero.

In Bamforth [JIB 105, #4, pp237-242,1999], "Enzymic and non-enzymic
oxidation in the Brewhouse: A theoretical Consideration", Bamforth reports
oxygen solubility of water in equilibrium w/ air to be 3.8ppm at 60C, and
2.8ppm at 75C.   About 20% lower yet in 10P wort. It''s low, but not
zero-ish.

He estimates that various small scale experiments performed see between
50 to 200 ppm of oxygen used in various oxidation processes in entire
brewing process and cites a study that measuresd 20ppm in the mash and
about twice that in the boil.  The reactions should, by his analysis suck
all the
O2 fromthe mash in no time -so it's out of equilibrium ...  you get the
picture.

The focus of the paper is that the mash oxidation rate is limited by the O2
concentration.  Otherwise the entire fatty acid load would be oxidized in
minutes and other reactions would run wild too.  The mash and boil
situations have many possible paths for the O2 to proceed - so they
compete for the available O2.  The good news is that the lipo-oxygenase
path isn't particularly attractive.  The bad news is that other oxidized
forms later produce superoxide/perhydroxyl ions in the beer.
At beer pH , the perhydroxyl is more prevalent and can react to
oxidize linoleic quickly.  In the mash perhydroxyls are more likely to
oxidation than with lipid oxidation.

It's only theory, but it matches recent evidence that staling flavors
(trans-nonenals) do NOT contain labeled oxygen molecules from the bottling
but the oxygen is from upstream in the mash or boil.

Bamforth doesn't make a pronouncement on the issue but he seems to be
leaning toward non-enzymic causes for staling flavors.  Other source
disagree.  I should send you a copy Alan.

========

Paul Schick kindly offers to brew the challenge beer under
some conditions ...

>So, in short, I'm volunteering to be the "competent lager
>brewer" [...]
> _IF_ he and Dr. Pivo can agree to rule out any stakes, both
>personal and monetary.

I understand and appreciate your point, but the idea of a bet
wasn't mine.  Dr.Pivo/Jeff Irvine offered a bet as a
direct and insulting attack on my character (here's how to cure
naysayers who lack conviction on their statements).  As usual
he has misread me.

My offer to proceed to a full description of the detailed test
stands.  The ball's in the other court.

As to the real issue (HSA) I would like to see the experiment
carried out regardless, *BUT* most folks forget is that there
is good deal of time and effort and expense involved.

>brew 20 gallons of a nice lager [...]  always a fun
>thing.

Not all fun. Gottta cold store it for perhaps a year using 20gal-years
of fridge capacity.  At 20gal there will be none to share or sample
except at tastings. Then there is the recordkeeping and the guy
who pours the triangle samples can't taste.  Nice for the tasters,
not so nice for the fridge owner and recordkeeper/pourer.

>I might also suggest that the beers be bottle-conditioned,
>in an effort to minimize cold side aeration effects.

Since I've only tasted the HSA in kegged beers I'd have to
say no.  Removing bottle O2 is good for this test,  but the
yeast also act as a reducing agent against other oxidation
processes - including possibly the lipid oxidation (w/o free
O2) that I expect to see in the HSA beer (see above).  Also
there is the potential problem of yeast autolysis over an
extended period.  It would be an interesting experiment,
but ..

A cheap proxy test would be to bottle some to taste after
the kegged version declines.

I saw a report *somewhere* that the O2 levels in bottle
conditioned beer are not much lower.  Yeast  don't consume all
the oxygen, but they do in my experience improve the aging
characteristics greatly.  As much as I hate bottling, I do prefer
bottle conditioned beers.

thanks Paul,

I'll be on biz travel rest of the week,
 -S





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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 22:07:13 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Poofters And Bandicoots

It doesn't pay to be absent from home for a few days because three days on
the HBD is a long time and no end of misinformation, aggression, and the
chance to pick on someone can all happen in this short space of time. My
head is spinning.

Alan Meeker has just had a light go off in his head and he asks "Is Doc Pivo
actually a Doctor"?
For God's sake Alan, have you not been paying attention?
Obviously not!!
As for rehashing thoughts on "Is HSA possible in the boil"?
I'm sure we have been through this before. My unscientific response was a
little unkind to Dave Burley.

But on the subject of HSA, Steve Alexander throws down the gauntlet and
challenges Doc Pivo on the matter financially. Come on Steve, this is
getting a little bit silly.
In any case, as I recall it, I'm sure Doc Pivo was labouring the point that
HSA was not an issue with homebrewing where our beers are not subject to
commercial rigours such as transport and extended shelf life. I got the
impression that your proposal was to keep judging the beer month after month
in an effort to finally detect effects of oxidisation. I don't think this is
a reasonable challenge. If you are not drinking your homebrew at it's peak,
why bother homebrewing?

In any case, should this showdown occur, it is my opinion that the obvious
"neutral" territory on which to hold it would be "Burradoo Estate". Despite
what Paul Shick might think of himself, there is no doubt in my mind (and
there had better not be in anyone else's!!) that I am the king of lagers,
rice lagers to be precise! And unlike Mr Shick, I will be raising the
financial stakes so that each entrant will be paying $500 for the privilege
of competing! The winner gets a night out on the town with the ladies of the
Billiard table. The loser gets to share a terrifying night on the "gold
tops" with me. Let's see how you handle the vision of Marilyn crawling out
of the bog naked!!

On a final note of insult, Dave Edwards of South Australia talks on the game
of Aussie Rules - played by poofters and bandicoots. What relevance has this
to real Aussie men and dedicated beer drinkers? I hope Dave, you don't
intend bringing the subject up with the crowd at the Burradoo Hilton, in
short young man, you will be slaughtered!

Now as for a crowd, well we will be needing one, and all of you are invited.
You wouldn't want to miss a night in the snake pit like this!!

Cheers
Phil
PS I recently met a bloke who told me for 23 years he and his wife were
perfectly happy.
Then, unfortunately, they met!!

I can relate to this.





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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:13:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Todd Goodman <tgoodman at sonusnet.com>
Subject: Yeast Propagation

I've read the yeast washing FAQ (relating a presentation by
Dave Logsdon) and have been really hesitant to wait for
separation and then save the suspended portion.

Is this really the best yeast to be saving?  Is there enough
yeast still in suspension after 30 minutes of chilling?  Is
separation at this first step supposed to happen at room temp
and much quicker than 30 minutes?  (I know the second step
mentions chilling and a 30-60 minute time period.)

I also use the yeast from secondary since it's much cleaner
to start with.  I'm concerened that I may be selecting for
low floccing yeast though.  Do people think this is a concern?

I brew about twice a month and generally don't know much in
advance if I'm going to be able to brew.  If I wanted to use
three or four primary yeast strains, would there be any big
drawbacks (obviously infection would be a concern) to keeping
three or four starters going continuously?  I'd just keep
feeding them every few days (using pressure canned wort).

Finally, when checking a starter for infection I try to smell
and taste it.  However, I have a hard time judging since it's
so yeasty and has fermented at a higher temp than the usual
beer fermentation.  Is it pretty obvious when infected?  What
taste or smell do people look for?  I've tasted autolyzed
yeast before but never tasted anything remotely like that in
my starters.

Thanks,

Todd Goodman
Brewing in Westford, MA



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Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 06:23:22 -0600
From: John Adsit <jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us>
Subject: Father/Grandfather favorites

A number of people have written in to talk about trying to revive a
father or grandfather's favorite beer. As the father of a homebrewer and
on not far from being old enough at least to be the grandfather of one,
let me introduce a caution.

When I first started drinking beer in my old haunts in upstate New York,
I had my favorites, too.  It was actually pretty easy to have a TRUE
favorite, by which I mean you could have had a meaningful experience
with every brand possible.  Whether it was one of the big national
brands or the more local beers, you really only had a handful of
choices, and they were all variations of the same bland product.  If you
wanted to pay extra and go upscale, you went to Michelob.

When I went to college in northern New York, we occasionally slipped
across the border to have a Molsons or Labatts, neither of which was
imported into the U.S.  When I moved to Colorado, I ran into Coors for
the first time.  (It was only sold in about ten states or so at the
time.)  I encountered my first Mexican beer then, too, Dos Equis.

Today, I can go into a liquor store and walk out with at least a dozen
beers I have never tried before, and I can be certain that every one of
them will be better than the swill I was forced to consume in my youth.

Yes, I had a favorite in those days.  If my son ever decides to honor me
and clone it, I will ask, "What the Hell were you thinking?"

- --
John Adsit
Boulder, Colorado
jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us




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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:38:30 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Oxidation of Boiling Wort

Brewsters:

Alan Meeker wonders if there is a reaction of oxygen with wort at the boil
at the wort/air interface.

I can definitely say yes, although there are many here who protest
otherwise without even trying the experiment. Check out the many
discusssions over time in the HBD archives including this same one of just
a few weeks ago.

If you have two kettles, try the experiment in which you boil with the lid
about 2/3 or more on and the other comletely off. Compare wort colors and
beer tastes and you will be converted to boiling ( after the initial 
boilup) with the kettle partially covered as the steam jet keeps air from
the surface.

For those cooks out there, compare the results of spaghetti sauce cooked
with the lid on and the lid off if you want to see an example of oxidation
at the boil, even though the dissolved oxygen content is low. 

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:41:45 -0400
From: Mark_Ohrstrom/Humphrey_Products%HUMPHREY_PRODUCTS at humphreypc.com
Subject: HBD  at  NHC?

Time is fast approaching for the MIY2K edition of the NHC.  How 'bout a
rendezvous of HBD stalwarts, flame mongers, lurkers, miscreants, rabble
rousers and the like in Livonia?  With just a little organization, we
should be able to "announce our presence with authority."

Mark in Kalamazoo



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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:56:21 -0400
From: Bill.X.Wible at QuestDiagnostics.com
Subject: Re: Pride of Ringwood Hops




"Dave Edwards" <eddiedb at senet.com.au> writes:

>G'day,
>Bill Wible wrote this about his hop additions for a Fosters clone:
>  .5 oz   Pride of Ringwood    6.8%    60 min
>  .5 oz   Pride of RIngwood    6.8%    30 min
>
>My question is where the hell does he buy his hops? You don't get
>PoR here in SA at  less than 9% AAU, and most are about 10 or 11%.
>Maybe it's just something to do with the way that most of the hops in
>Oz and NZ have much higher acid than their northern relatives.

Funny you should mention the seemingly low alpha on those PoR,
Dave. When I was sitting here at work figuring up that recipe, I
remember writing in PoR as around 13%, then having to revise the
amounts at home due to the lower alpha of the hops I actually had
on hand at home.

I do recall that PoR is a relatively high alpha hop, so I was quite
surprised to find mine were marked 6.8%.  I bought the hops at a
homebrew store here in Philadelphia.  There is nothing wrong
with them.  They were in the standard nitro-flushed, gray-green
bags just like we get all of other hops in, and they were marked
Pride of Ringwood, 6.8% AA.

I know that all hops do vary in alpha acid from year to year and
even field to field in the same year, so this could be perfectly normal.

Bill




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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:02:32 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Hot Mash Percolators

Aaron Sepanski writes about British Hot Mash percolators. This is nothing
compared to what they do to Budwiser. During the MCAB II we got a tour of the
Pilot brewery (Thanks again bob boland) at AB. 20 feet wide 60 feet long, NINE
STORIES TALL!!! Anyway. AB runs their hot liqior out of the wirlpool into an
airation chamber. the wort fills a grant at the top of the chamber and spills
over a series of egg shaped tubes that have a strategically placed flatspot in
them. this lets the wort fall down the inside of the tube in a spiral sheet thus
creating maximum surface area. The tubes are about 18 ft long and have sterile
hot air blowing up through them. We grilled the good Dr. over and over on HSA
worries and he insisted it did no damage to the beer. (Chuckle) According to him
the hot air volitized alot of the bad phenols and their precursors out of the
wort. (We thought is stripped out any flavor whatsoever). He went on to insist
that oxidation later on is what you need to worry about. Since seeing and
hearing that little demo I have hit PG down every time I see HSA in Dr. Pivo's
subject line.

Phil WIlcox




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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:04:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Todd Goodman <tgoodman at sonusnet.com>
Subject: Growing Hops

I'm curious how other hop growers in the area (Westford, MA)
are doing with their plants.

This is my first year growing (six varieties) and I think I
got them started late (late May).

I have one vine (nugget) that is about three feet tall
and climbing well.

One hill has nothing coming up (Chinook).

The Saaz have two sprouts but haven't grown more than an inch
tall in the weeks they've been above ground.

The Cascades have just come up.

The Hallertau are about a foot tall and just starting to train
onto the line.

The Perle hill had two sprouts about four inches tall which then
(it was after a recent Nor'easter so I'm not sure if something
blew over and took them out, there's garden fencing around each
hill so I don't think it was animal related).

I know I won't get much the first year, but they're growing slower
than expected.

The Nugget also has some insect damage (leaves cut through) on
the lower leaves.  Is this normal or should I be checking into
it (the higher leaves don't show this damage and I don't see
any insects now)?

What do people tend to use to train their hops?  I used two
10 foot sections of galvanized pipe connected with a coupler
with an eye-bolt through an end cap on one end and just an
foot section of the same pipe sunk in the ground with an end
cap on it.  Then a piece of pipe just large enough for the end
caps to fit within slides over both (to hold them up).  There's
a bolt in the pipe in the ground to hold the sleeve up high
enough.

Nylon rope trails down to an oak stake in the hill (a tent
setup I guess).  I have some pics if anyone is interested.

Thanks,

Todd Goodman
Brewing in Westford, MA



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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:13:56 -0400
From: Bill.X.Wible at QuestDiagnostics.com
Subject: Schaefer




>Aaron Perry <vspbcb at earthlink.net> writes:
>
>I was interested in the strong response to the Foster's recipe.
>I can't help but want to stir up such a response here in the U.S.
>I'm working on a Schaefer recipe. Seeing as Memorial Day just passed, I'd been
>thinking about my Grandfater. and his Favorite (translated - only) brand of
>beer. I
>thought it would be fun, and challenging to brew up a commemerative batch. Any
>insight? Brewery specifics?
>

Aaron,

Schaefer is another beer I experimented with last year.  There is an article
published in Brewing Techniques called 'The Bushwick Pilseners - A look
at Hoppier Days" that has alot of information about old Schaefer recipes.
The article is about Classic American Pilseners that were produced in the
Bushwick section of New York.  Schaefer was one of those.  The article can
be found online now by going to realbeer.com and searching their library.
I'mprettysure the author is Ben Jankowski (sp?)

I brewed mine as a pre-prohibition lager, using mostly 6 row malt and about
a pound and a half of corn for 5 gallons.  I brought it in at around 1.065.  I
used
Cluster hops for bittering and some Styrian Goldings for flavor.  I used Wyeast
2207 Pilsener yeast.  If I were to try this again, I might use either the 2035
American
Lager or the 2272 North American.

My problem with the beer was that it didn't  ferment down enough, was too
sweet. This could also have been perceived sweetness from all the corn,
maybe.

I would also mention that BYO did a big article on reproducing old beers that
were 'dad's favorites' last June.  It gave recipes for old (pre-Miller)
Lowenbrau,
Ballantine XXX, and some others.  I wrote and asked for the old Lowenbrau
several months before that, because my dad was bugging me to find out
about it and try to make it for him ever since he found out I started brewing.
I actually enjoyed making it for him, and he loved it.  Our homebrew shop
owner made the Ballantine clone and put it on tap at the store.  It was
also great.   This was a good article if you can scare up a copy of the
magazine.

Good luck.  Glad to see I'm not the only one with an interest in brewing lagers.

Bill




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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:49:52 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Jeff Renner's mild?

>Bill.X.Wible at QuestDiagnostics.com wrote:

>I knew there was something I liked about that Jeff Renner guy.
>Pre-prohibition lager, now mild ale.  Jeff, any chance for a repost
>of that mild recipe?  (Or send it to my email?)  Mild is one my
>favorite styles to brew.  I'm always looking for new mild recipes.

Rather than just point you to the archives at
http://hubris.engin.umich.edu/cgi-bin/dothread, since traffic it not too
heavy, and since I have an update on it, I'll repost it below.

The update.  After I drank about a third of the 1/4 bbl Sankey, I racked
the rest into a corney and dry hopped it with a handful of my best EKG.
Now, two weeks later, it has a very nice dry hopped character.  But several
other things have happened.  First, the roastiness seems to have aged out.
I've noted this before.  Of course, a proper mild should have been long
since consumed.   Second, it seems to have dried out and become slightly
more bitter on balance, probably as a result of a bit further fermentation
and also the dry hops.  Since it was slightly less dark than some milds, it
now is more or less a darkish bitter.  Not all that bitter, but drier than
it was.  Very nice, just different.

So I guess you should drink it up quickly if you want a malty mild.

If you want it darker but not more roasty, try grinding an ounce of
chocolate very fine (like in a blender) and add it to the boil for the last
five minutes.  I picked up this tip from a Briess newsletter at
http://www.briess.com.  This site is full of good info.  Check out the
newletter archives.

 -=-=-=-
Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 11:37:15 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: May is Mild Month

Brewers

May is Mild Month - so says CAMRA, the Campaign for Real Ale.  Mild is an
easy drinking ale, most often dark, almost always low in gravity, low in
bitterness, and is a natural here in the US before the weather gets so warm
you want a lager.

Here is my most recent iteration:

Armstrong's Dark Mild

7.75 US gallons in the keg (8+ gallons in the primary fermenter)
OG 1.037, FG 1.010

8.5 lbs. Briess Ashburne malt*
1 lb. Durst 90L crystal
3 oz. Scotmalt chocolate
12 oz. Briess flaked maize

1.2 oz. very fresh whole EKG  at  6.2% alpha - 60 minutes
0.6 oz. ditto - 15 minutes

Huge repitch of Wyeast 1098 (Whitbread) (not my first choice but it was
what was available)

Untreated fairly high carbonate well water (alkalinity balanced by dark malts)

Started mash at 153F, dropped to 149 at 60 minutes, raised to 160F for 20
minutes, then mashed out at 170F.  Sparged with boiled and decanted well
water (for low alkalinity).  Collected ~7.5 gallons wort, topped with ~ 2
gallons sparge water before boil.

Fermented upper 60's to 70F, "dropped" the fermenting beer at 18 hours into
another fermenter with a fair amount of splashing to oxygenate the yeast,
then moved to 60F after 2-1/2 days as fermentation slowed.  Ready to keg at
five days.

Light bodied, chocolatey, fruity, slightly roasty, mildly bitter.  Quite
nice, if I do say so myself.  Can't wait for my hand pump to arrive.

*  I think Ashburne is a real key in creating the flavor I was after.  It
is a slightly darker version of pale ale.  See http://www.briess.com for
details.

For an even lighter bodied mild, substitute 12 oz. of sugar for one pound
of malt.

If anyone brews this, report back on HBD.


 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 10:30:43 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Schaefer, was: more favorites

 Aaron Perry <vspbcb at earthlink.net> wrote:

>I'm working on a Schaefer recipe. Seeing as Memorial Day just passed, I'd been
>thinking about my Grandfater. and his Favorite (translated - only) brand of
>beer. I
>thought it would be fun, and challenging to brew up a commemerative batch. Any
>insight? Brewery specifics?

Of course, that would be a CAP.  And as for specifics, you're in luck.  See
Ben Jankowski"s excellent Brewing Techniques (January/February 1994)
article "The Bushwick Pilsners:  A Look at Hoppier Days."

A relevent extract:
"The most civic minded of the Bushwick Brewers was F&M Schaefer. In
addition to being the beer of the Brooklyn Dodgers, Schaefer sponsored
exhibits at both New York World's Fairs and hosted dancing tents at Jones
Beach Theater. At the 2.5 million-bbl plant in Brooklyn it produced its
pilsner, bock, and Beverwyck's Irish Cream Ale. Schaefer was also the last
brewery to close in Brooklyn in 1976."

Jankowski says that Schaefer was 1.049 OG, no FG given, hopped with Cluster
and Styrian Goldings to 24.2 IBU.  He gives a recipe that is very similar
to my first "Your Father's Mustache,"  but I don't think he uses enough
corn.  I think you need to go with 25% or so.

Good luck.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:57:38 -0400
From: Robin Griller <rgriller at chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: a lactic acid question for Doc Pivo


As a follow up to your post on lactic acid in the mash, I was
wondering what you think of Lactic Acid for acidifying the sparge water.
I know the comments were mostly about pH in the mash, but you also made a
comment about a lactic acid flavour. So, do you acidify your sparge water
and, if so, do you use lactic acid?

thanks,

Robin



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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 12:15:09 -0400 
From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>
Subject: Grr...F# at &*G Spider Mites

All -

Grrrrrr...after reading some others' posts about brown and crispy hop leaves
(yep, I got 'em too) and infestations of spider mites, I checked the
underside of my hop leaves...

<<Listen for resounding WHAP of massive forehead slap>>  The little buggers
were all over the place.  I hadn't thought to even look, seeing as how all
of my hops are on the roof of my house in individual garbage cans in the
heart of Baltimore City...  So, I blasted the crap out of all the bines with
water from my hose nozzle set on high, and that did the trick, no more
mites.  However, I don't really want to invest in Lacewings to eat the
stragglers, because I'm in the middle of the city and there's not a lot of
other vegetation for them to fripp around on, and I'm afraid they'll die of
hunger, or something.

Others have mentioned insecticidal soaps and such to keep the mites off.
Can anyone recommend a good residual treatment to keep these little pests
away from my beloved bines?  I'll use insecticides, I really don't care.
Also, the bines have definitely halted their growth because of the damage.
Will they spring back up now that the mites are gone, or is this it?  (2nd
year Cascade bines, about 12 feet tall)  They have already started to
produce some small cones...

TIA,

Jay Spies
Baltimore Insect Obliteration Foundation


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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:26:03 -0500
From: "St. Patrick's" <stpats at bga.com>
Subject:  phosphoric/floor malting/Zatec


The issue of floor maltings vs pneumatic maltings is very interesting.  I
do not have a strong opinion either way as to which is superior.  I will
say that one should never underestimate the preeminence of the skill of the
maltster, regardless of the system.

It's interesting that Beeston claims floor malt is more homogenous than
pneumatic---this is generally opposite of what one hears. It is almostly
certainly true that pneumatic systems produce more uniform malt than the
old floor maltings turn malt by hand, etc.  Modern floor maltings have
modern heating/cooling systems, turn malt with machines, have
heating/cooling in floors, etc.  Under those conditions, it may well be
possible to produce more uniform malt.

I visited 3 different types of pneumatic maltings as well as floor maltings
in the Czech Republic.  The floor malting at the Cerna Hora brewery is very
old and traditional, they still use chariots for example.  The Czech malt
that I import comes from a floor maltings, more modern than Cerna Hora but
windows are used for temperature regulation.  These maltings shut down
annually in August due to warm weather.  I think Beestons and other modern
floor maltings operate year round.

There is currently a study underway in the Czech Republic to evaluate the
relative merits of floor maltings vs pneumatic. Basically, the idea is to
produce malt from the same barley at both facilities, then evaluate the
beer made from each, both in pilot breweries as well as in small commercial
breweries.

We sell food grade phosphoric acid.  As someone else mentioned it's a good
cleaner for mineral deposits and such.  Phosphoric is the key ingredient in
Lime Away for example.

Jim Busch corrected my spelling of Zatec (not Zatek).  My misspelling
emanates from the time I used to mispronounce the word as well.  It is not
zha-tek, as I used to say, but zhats (or something close), very similar to
saaz.  I'm up to tape 4 in my Pimsleur language tapes and I don't
understand why Czechs just
don't speak English--it's so much easier ;-)

Lynne O'Connor
St. Patrick's of Texas
Brewers Supply
1828 Fleischer Dr
Austin, Texas 78728 USA
512-989-9727
www.stpats.com







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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:55:16 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: Hop and Gator

Even down here in Gator country, Phil Wilcox's post on Hop and Gator comes
under the catagory of Way More Info then INeed to Know - (though actually it
was kinda interesting in a twisted sort of way)

but at least you finish it off with "If you come to the AHA Conference, I
promise I won't bring any with me! ;<)"

thanks for that!! see ya there,

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL



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