---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Brewing software. (Victor Macias)
  FW: THANKS DOCTOR CONE! / GIVE MEAD A BREAK! ("Hill, Steve")
  pH meter arcana (AJ)
  Competition Announcement!! (Eric Tepe)
  yeast identities sought (Randy Ricchi)
  Filtering (Alan Davies)
  Mash Percs? ("Aaron Sepanski")
  Meanwhile, back on the ranch... (Some Guy)
  Re: Fosters recipe (Lance Levsen)
  Going to Toronto (Lance Levsen)
  Pride of Ringwood ("Richard Pass")
  tales of transplants and other horrors. ("Dr. Pivo")
  re: HBD  at  NHC ("Mark Tumarkin")
  Thermometers ("Jimmy Hughes")
  how to calculate SRM ("FLEMING, JOE")
  Grant's Imperial Stout recipe request (Rick Pauly)
  iodophor ("Dalibor Jurina")
  Thermometers-follow-up ("Jimmy Hughes")
  boil oxidation (Marc Sedam)
  Spider mite repellent ("John Watts")
  Training hops ("Doug Moyer")
  Dan's heat question ("Alan Meeker")
  Schaefer (Scott Abene)
  beer and BP ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  Oregon Fruit ("Steve")
  HSA, etc.. ("Alan Meeker")
  Re: re: HBD  at  NHC (Some Guy)
  floor malted Maris Otter (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Schaefer, was: more favorites (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Schaefer, was: more favorites (John Adsit)
  HSA experiment (Paul Shick)
  Father/Grandfather favorites (Bill.X.Wible)
  HSA (Jim Bermingham)
  Mead & Cider guidelines ("Alison, Colin, Scott Birdwell")
  mash out (Jim Liddil)
  Vittles Vault (AJ)
  MIY2K ("Ken Schramm")


* Don't miss the 2000 AHA NHC in Livonia, MI 
* 6/22 through 6/24 http://hbd.org/miy2k

* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 10:13:50 -0700 
From: Victor Macias <VMacias at foxsports.net>
Subject: Brewing software.

Greetings.

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but in case it hasn't, I've
found the Beer Recipator spreadsheet http://hbd.org/recipator to be
extremely helpful to me, a novice "recipe formulator".  It's been very
accurate with my brewing setup (5-gal-extract-back-yard-propane-burner...).
It's easy to fiddle with different ingredients and amounts, and it figures
gravity, IBUs, volume adjustments, extract efficiency, etc.  The beers that
I've made with the Recipator have been some of my best.  Check it out!!!

Victor Macias
Pacific Gravity Homebrewers 
Culver City, CA 	 	   



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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 13:44:30 -0400 
From: "Hill, Steve" <SHill at advanta.com>
Subject: FW: THANKS DOCTOR CONE! / GIVE MEAD A BREAK!

> I would like to thank the Dr. for the DAP feeding suggestion.  My friend
> and I are trying our hands at a sami-clone.  Lets just say that after
> adding the DAP with some simple sugars for feeding, it is like primary
> fermentation all over again.  Dr. Cone, please come to our digest more
> often, PLEASE!?!?!?!
> 
> As for the mead controversy for the last couple of weeks.  I vote to keep
> it in and let judges evaluate it to the best of their abilities.  I have
> brewing mead for almost 4 years now.  Why???  Because my other half hates
> beer (and definitely hated the first couple of batches of mead too.)  But
> lets just say, thanks to my report cards from the contests and taking what
> was said to heart  -- and for that matter, discarding the negative or
> incorrect suggestions, that ribbons are coming my way at contests, and now
> my fiancee and family are asking when the next bottle of mead is coming
> their way!!!
> 
> As for the judging part and me brewing mead.  Do I like mead?  I can
> appreciate it for what it is worth.  Do I judge it, absolutely!  I have
> learned a lot and apply A LOT of it to beer making!  (15 gallon herms
> system -- all grain 2 years, beer brewing 5 years-- I feel I need to give
> my credentials on the HBD as not to get verbally killed which will
> probably happen anyway)  And the judges I have met in the mead and (cider
> category) have always volunteered for that position.  Why, probably
> because they have some sort of experience or niche for meads. 
> 
> At our club meetings some members have come to me for suggestions and
> CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.  And not to pat myself on the back, one member
> asked me questions for over 2 hours about mead.  Guess what, he took first
> place in a contest and almost won best of show (judges felt that a mead
> should not win best of show for beer contest).  Not too shabby for his
> first mead.  Do I feel I contributed to his success, not really.  But if I
> have helped even one person to be inspired to brew/ferment something that
> was intriguing and it kept the heritage alive, I have done my part.
> 
> Take things for what they are, and move on.  Life is too short!
> 
> Steve


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Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 14:36:46 -0400
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: pH meter arcana

I meant to comment on the pH meter - conductivity question yesterday but
was so wrapped up in cleaning up after myself that I forgot. What the pH
meter does is develop a voltage across a thin glass membrane which
voltage is dependent upon the difference in hydrogen ion concentrations
on the two sides. The membrane is formed into a bulb and the bulb filled
with a solution at a particular pH. The "hot" electrode is in this
solution. The outside of the bulb is the other side of the membrane and
its potential must be conveyed to the "neutral" side of the meterting
circuit. This is accomplished via the "reference" electrode which sits
in the solution being tested. The connection between the outside of the
bulb and the reference electrode is through the solution itself so while
the electrode does not measure the conductivity of the solution , finite
conductivity is required of it. While they are extremely minute,
currents must flow through the solution. If the solution is pure water,
the conductivity is extremely low and some meters have difficulty
obtaining stable readings. This situation is remedied by adding an "ion
strength adjustor" which is a neutral salt chosen to enhance
conductivity without changing pH. Calibration is done using special
buffers which contain the ISE.



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 19:06:19 -0400
From: Eric Tepe <erictepe at fuse.net>
Subject: Competition Announcement!!

Hear Ye, Hear Ye,

Beer and Sweat, Cincinnati's premier homebrew competition operated by
the Bloatarian Brewing League is coming August 19th. What is Beer and
Sweat? It is (to my limited knowlege) the nation's only "keg only"
homebrew competition. Entries can be in corny kegs, sankey type kegs,
party pigs, mini-kegs, even 2 liters with carbonator caps. If you have
some other draft system then enter the beer and bring it on down to the
competition.  Last year we had 114 homebrew entries with Mark Irwin of
SODZ in Columbus, OH taking the BOS prize. In addition to the homebrew
side we also have "King of the Queen City" which is a friendly
competition for professional brewers that are located or distribute to
the Ohio Valley region around Cincinnati. Last year Miami Trails Brewing
beat out hometown favorite BarrelHouse as well as Hoster's (Columbus),
Watson Brothers (Cincinnati), and Great Lakes Brewing (Cleveland) for
the gold. There are great raffle prizes and entertainment to keep things
hopping well into the night. Beer and Sweat is held at the Howard
Johnson Hotel in Sharonville Ohio (just north of Cincinnati) and we do
have rooms blocked off for those with long drives and/or those with the
intention of imbibing a little to much. So, if you are a homebrewer in
the region (OH, KY, IN, MI, WV, VA, MO, TN) and want to have a great
time, fire up that kettle, brew your best beer (because competition is
steep) and bring it on over August 19th. Entries will only be accepted
if they are pre-registered. To register and find out more, visit
www.hbd.org/bloat. If you would like to judge, you can register on the
web site as well.  If you have any questions please e-mail me at
erictepe at fuse.net.

Thanks for your time
Eric R. Tepe
Organizer-Beer and Sweat 2000



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Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:37:39 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: yeast identities sought

I was on the Wyeast web-page and noticed a few strains that were new and
interesting to me, and I was wondering if anyone could comment on their
personal experience using the yeast, or knew something about their origins.

1010 american wheat yeast - A dry fermenting, true top cropping yeast which
produces a dry, slightly tart, crisp beer, in American hefeweisen style.
Flocculation low, apparent attenuation 74-78%. (58-74o F). Could this be
the strain Widmer uses?

1099 Whitbread ale yeast ( Not 1098 British ale yeast from whitbread) -A
mildly malty and slightly fruity fermentation profile; not as tart and dry
as 1098 and much more flocculant. Clears well without filtration.
Flocculation high; apparent attenuation 68-72%. (64-75o F)  Obviously,
Whitbread origin. Has anyone tried it? How is it?

1318 London Ale yeast III - From traditional London brewery with great malt
and hop profile. True top cropping strain, fruity, very light, soft
balanced palate, finishes slightly sweet. Flocculation - high; apparent
attenuation 71-75%. (64-74o F).  This one really sounds appealing to me
because of the top-cropping. I use Samuel Smith's yeast often, which is a
top cropper, and would like to try something new for a change, but still go
with a top-cropper. The description of this really sounds good. I would
really like to know where this one came from.

3638 bavarian wheat yeast - Top cropping hefeweisen yeast with complex
flavor and aroma. Balance of banana and bubble gum esters with lichi and
apple/plum esters and cloveness. Flocculation low; apparent attenuation
70-76%. (64-75o F)
Hefe-weizen is another style I really like and have brewed many times, and
with many different strains.  My favorites over the years have been Brewtek
CL 92 German Wheat, YeastLabs W51 (I think), and the weizen yeast from
Whitelabs. This new one really sounds interesting too. Anyone know of it's
origins? TIA.





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Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 11:33:10 +1000
From: Alan Davies <afjc at cnl.com.au>
Subject: Filtering

I have came to the conclusion I will have to filter my beer. I have
tried finings etc. Could I have suggestions as to the best ways to
mechanicaly or chemicaly to do this. I am toying with the idea in using
air induced into the wurt after fermentation to act as a defloculator
what do you think. Any suggestion would be appreciated. My brewing is by
Rims.
Alan Davies.




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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 22:6:59 -0700
From: "Aaron Sepanski" <madaarjul at earthlink.net>
Subject: Mash Percs?

I am very sorry if I implies a mash percolating system.  I should have been
more specific.  What I meant to say was in England, there are breweries
that percolate their boil.  I'm really sorry for the mix up.



Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 23:25:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Meanwhile, back on the ranch...

Yeast ranch, that is!

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Well, it's been five days. Time for a check on the ranch and to bring the
wort volume up a bit. 

Inspection shows that "Mystery Lager" and "Belgian Abbey" have joined the
dark side. The flasks contining these samples were inhabited by a couple
of nasty slime molds. Ah, well: I guess one should expect such things from
stuff stored in the bottom of the refrigerator for four years.
Disconcerting, still, since the slants were sealed and all. My aseptic
technique failed me at one end of the process or the other. Probably the
cleaning/sanitition of the slant mouth at transfer into the flask, but
who knows.

St. Louis Lager, Irish Ale, Orval and Bavarian Lager are each showing some
sediment. The control is clear. Each flask, including the control, were
brought up to 30 ml with oxygenated wort from an autoclaved starter.

The saga continues...

- -- 
 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock

"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday




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Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 22:48:00 -0600
From: Lance Levsen <l.levsen at printwest.com>
Subject: Re: Fosters recipe 

Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> writes:


> I wouldn't be surprised if they brew some here so the Canadians can drink
> imported Foster's too.
> 
> Jeff
> 

Very possible. Molson's merged with the Fosters Brewing Group in 1989, then 
subsequently formed an alliance with Miller Brewing Co. in '93.

However, in '97 Molson Companies and Foster's Brewing Group bought back the 
20% of Molson Breweries owned by Miller Brewing Co. This effectively allowed 
Molson Breweries 50% of Molson Companies and 50% of Fosters Brewing.

Then in '98 The Molson Companies bought back the 50% of Molson Breweries owned 
by Foster's Brewing.

Having said all that, I believe that the Fosters available here (Canada) is 
domestic.

Cheers


- -- 
Lance Levsen, Programmer
Product Innovation,Web Development
PWGroup - S'toon.
477-3166



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Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 23:10:02 -0600
From: Lance Levsen <l.levsen at printwest.com>
Subject: Going to Toronto


I'll be heading to the Toronto area at the end of the month, then the 
wkend/bank holiday to Niagra/St. Catherines . . . any good brewpubs to visit?

Cheers,


- -- 
Lance Levsen, Programmer
Product Innovation,Web Development
PWGroup - S'toon.
477-3166



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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:59:36 +1000
From: "Richard Pass" <richard.pass at anu.edu.au>
Subject: Pride of Ringwood

Bill Wible wrote about Pride of Ringwood with stated alpha acid content of
6.8%

In 25 years of brewing in this wide brown land I've never encountered Pride
of Ringwood hops with an alpha acid rating below 8%.  I'm not saying they
have never existed.  Just I've never seen 'em (Not that I look very much).
They are mostly to be found in the range 9.5% to 10.5%.

Just my $.02 worth.

Brother Pass-the-bottle




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Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 12:34:30 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: tales of transplants and other horrors.

Richard wrote that Alan wrote that Steve wrote:

> Steve wrote to doc Pivo:
> 
> >>" I have noticed that in your field physicians
> >>are not required to personally contract every disease they treat,"
> 
> >Wait a minute, are you telling me that old doc Pivo is a /medical/ doc??
> >Shudder.
> 
>  >-Alan Meeker
>  >Baltimore, MD (that's Maryland, not M.D.)
> 
> He sure is Alan, and last time he was out this way it was all I could do to
> prevent him demonstrating his liver transplant technique after dinner.

This is Steve speculating and rumour mongering as per usual and it is an
entirely unfounded one.

Actually, I'm a Mycoethologist.

I'm surprised at Richard for supporting this nonsense with the tale of
the transplant. It was his Bock that put me in the carving mood, and I
was really only going to show a "neat trick" that he could show-off next
time he was at the Ashram.

I wasn't that concerned about Ziggy's tissue type, as I've found a
"Cream Ale Infusion" does a good job of preventing transplant rejection
(I think it's the Nitrogen).

Besides, I'm really quite sure you could use a new one, Richard.

Dr. Pivo LXXXVI


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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 07:06:30 -0400
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: HBD  at  NHC

Mark Ohrstrom writes:
Time is fast approaching for the MIY2K edition of the NHC.  How 'bout a
rendezvous of HBD stalwarts, flame mongers, lurkers, miscreants, rabble
rousers and the like in Livonia?  With just a little organization, we should
be able to "announce our presence with authority."

Sounds like a reasonable, no an inevitable plan. Last year a lot of us wrote
the HBD initials on our name tags to make it easy to recognize each other.
That's simple and we can certainly do it again. Since you're more or less
local, if you want to organize something more elaborate that would be great
too. Probably a bit late (maybe for next year?), but it would be fun to have
HBD members take a shift in the hospitality suite.

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL






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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 07:41:02 -0400
From: "Jimmy Hughes" <inspector at bmd.clis.com>
Subject: Thermometers

I have just purchased a "MiniTemp" Noncontact thermometer from W. W.
Grainger for $90.00.  It is an infrared reader, looks kind of like the
things that Drs. stick in kids ears.

It has a problem reading the temp of shiny objects, such as aluminum or SS.

Temp range  30-500F
Accuracy    +-2% of reading or +-3.5F, whichever is greater

I will keep you posted after doing some tests

Happy trails to you, 'til we meet again..............
Check out the free items, go to,
http://www.ncinspections.com
scroll down, click on the free after rebate link........
Save money, enjoy........




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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:17:00 -0400 
From: "FLEMING, JOE" <JOE.FLEMING at spcorp.com>
Subject: how to calculate SRM

        Anybody know how to calculate the color (SRM) of a beer recipe?
     
        Thanks,
        Joe


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Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 08:31:48 -0400
From: Rick Pauly <flp2m at virginia.edu>
Subject: Grant's Imperial Stout recipe request

Has any one come close to making a Grants Imperial?
I have seen published some info on the grain bill which was
pale,black and carmel with some honey. No percentages or info on what type
of carmel or black malt.

thanks,
Rick Pauly
Charlottesville, VA



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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:36:23 +0200
From: "Dalibor Jurina" <dalibor.jurina at ri.tel.hr>
Subject: iodophor

Hello,
Since I`m from Croatia all sanitizers used by Homebrewers from other
continents are a bit SF to me.
Bleach is available but I have some SS parts. Is there anything other than
Iodophor which can be found here
(if I have more choices something maybe comes out)

Thanks,
Dalibor Jurina



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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:57:08 -0400
From: "Jimmy Hughes" <inspector at bmd.clis.com>
Subject: Thermometers-follow-up

For more info on the infrared go to

http://www.raytek.com/

Happy trails to you, 'til we meet again..............
Check out the free items, go to,
http://www.ncinspections.com
scroll down, click on the free after rebate link........
Save money, enjoy........
 


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 08:58:44 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: boil oxidation

Hey Dave:

I've taken you up on the experiment, but the beers aren't
done yet.  Since Jeff Renner now has me addicted to
producing a good CAP (can I get a link for the Ayinger
yeast?) I made one a few months ago.  First it was good,
then it was great, then it went straight to hell.  The
staling process was about as subtle as jumping off a cliff.
Since I made special care to avoid wort splashing (y'all
have me paranoid) I might be willing to attribute it to your
thoughts.  Soooooo...

I brewed another CAP at the beginning of May, but this time
had the kettle covered with the lid held open about 2" with
a wooden spoon.  I can say that I noticed a stronger boil
with less evaporation.  Wound up with more beer than I
expected.  I just gave it a diacetyl rest (whether it needed
it or not) and plan to rack to the keg next week.  I'll give
the final report in August.

Cheers!
Marc



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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:11:57 -0500
From: "John Watts" <watts at radiks.net>
Subject: Spider mite repellent


My father-in-law's garden has always had problems with spider mites.  Last 
year I ran across a book on companion planting that suggested planting garlic 
between the other plants.  Did that last year and no sign of the nasty little 
buggers at all.  Just pick up a head at the local grocery store, break out the 
cloves, soak them in water for a few days, then plant the ones that look like 
they're developing roots.

Rgds


John Watts
watts at radiks.net


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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:16:52 -0400
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: Training hops

Todd Goodman <tgoodman at sonusnet.com> asks:

"What do people tend to use to train their hops?"

I originally tried positive reinforcement. Unsuccessful, I then switched to
bribery, but recently, I've realized that my hops are too unruly for such
gentle methods. Remember, "spare the rod, spoil the cone".


Brew on!
Doug Moyer
Training hops for deer consumption in Salem, VA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity

"There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'"
     ~ Dave Barry



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com



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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:51:06 -0400
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Dan's heat question

Dan Diana asks:

>Can anyone out there resolve a discrepancy between two references? I am
>trying to find a reasonable estimate of the heat generated during
>fermentation. DeClerck's A Textbook of Brewing (Vol1, p. 420) provides a
>value of 178 calories/kg sugar. In contrast, MBAA's Practical Brewer (p.
>165) provides an esitmate of 160 Kcal/KG sugar. The numerical values are
>reasonably close but I am really unclear on which units to believe. A three
>order of magnitude difference leads me to believe one is a typo, but which
>one?

Dan, ballparking it -  for glucose, complete combustion produces about 700
kcal/mole which is 180 grams. This gives about 3900 kcal/kg for glucose so
the closer, and probably correct, value is the MBAA figure. It is much less
than the figure for the complete combustion because the yeast are not taking
the sugars all the way down to CO2 (they stop at ethanol) and are also not
releasing all the liberated energy as heat (some is trapped in chemical
bonds in the compounds in the yeast cells).

If, as seems likely,  the MBAA value is correct then it works out to a
potential total temp. increase of about 15 degC for a 5 gallon batch having
10% fermentable sugar by weight which sounds close to the 10dgeC value I've
heard bantied about in the past...

 -Alan Meeker
Baltimore, MD




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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 06:59:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Abene <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: Schaefer

Ahhh... 

I remember it well... I still hum the "Schaefer City" jingle on
occasion. 

 -Scott

=====
ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT
Scott Abene <skotrat at mediaone.net>
http://www.skotrat.com (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page)

"The More I know about beer politics, The more I wish I made 120k"

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com


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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:07:29 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: beer and BP

>>The doctor demonstrated the effect as he took my friend's blood 
pressure before and after drinking a 7 oz. Bud. <<
       It would seem indicative of nothing, the anxiety of being cut off
of a beer ration at hearing the results could cause the BP rise.

>> I seem to get heartburn after drinking highly hopped beers.<<
       I do too, _if_ that beer also has a high degree of residual sugar;
and many micro's that are highly hopped do have considerable
residual sugar. Gulden Draak is one that pops to mind,
a nice tasting beer but the RS kills me. A beer with 60+ IBUs would
be pretty untasty if fermented to dryness. 

N.P. Lansing


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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:52:36 -0400
From: "Steve" <stjones1 at chartertn.net>
Subject: Oregon Fruit

Greetings all.

I'm brewing a fruit weizen beer for the summer and I'm using the Oregon
Fruit puree for the first time. I'm doing 10 gallons, and using a can of
Cherry in 5 and Raspberry in 5 (in the secondary).

According to the labels, the Cherry puree (95 per serving, 11 servings
per can) has 1045 calories and 132 grams of sugar, and the Raspberry
puree (45 per serving, 12 servings per can) has 540 calories and 108
grams sugar. Does anyone kow this translates to specific gravity? I'd
like to know the number of gravity points that each will contribute,
either the total per can or the points per gallon for 5 gallons.

Thanks for your help.

Steve
5.58S, 1.24E rennerian
State of Franklin Homebrewers
http://users.chartertn.net/franklinbrew



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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:10:08 -0400
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: HSA, etc..

Concerning my question on the possibility of HSA during the wort boil Steve
wrote:
 .
>In Bamforth [JIB 105, #4, pp237-242,1999], "Enzymic and non-enzymic
>oxidation in the Brewhouse: A theoretical Consideration", Bamforth reports
>oxygen solubility of water in equilibrium w/ air to be 3.8ppm at 60C, and
>2.8ppm at 75C.   About 20% lower yet in 10P wort. It''s low, but not
>zero-ish.

Yes, but I'm wondering about HSA during a roiling boil (100+ degC) where the
solubility is pretty much zero.
I'm not so much concerned with the oxidation that occurs before this. Yes, I
do believe the evidence that it occurs is convincing but I have already
taken all reasonable steps that I can, within the limitations of my set-up,
to minimize this. It is just that I have recently moved to outdoor boiling
and am wondering whether or not I should take pains to limit air exposure to
the surface of the boil...

>I should send you a copy Alan

Please do!

Regarding Doc Pivo:

>Wait a minute, are you telling me that old doc Pivo is a /medical/ doc??
>Shudder.
>>I hope so, he reported digging infected tissue out of a knee a bit ago.

But was it a human knee? animal's? live? dead? his own? it's sounding like
another HBD mommily!

and Phil chimes in:

>But on the subject of HSA, Steve Alexander throws down the gauntlet and
>challenges Doc Pivo on the matter financially. Come on Steve, this is
>getting a little bit silly.

I agree, though it was Pivo who first suggested the $$ challenge (see, I
/have/ been paying at least some attention!)

 -Alan




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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:21:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Re: re: HBD  at  NHC

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Mark Tumarkin offers:

> Sounds like a reasonable, no an inevitable plan. Last year a lot of us wrote
> the HBD initials on our name tags to make it easy to recognize each other.
> That's simple and we can certainly do it again. Since you're more or less
> local, if you want to organize something more elaborate that would be great
> too. Probably a bit late (maybe for next year?), but it would be fun to have
> HBD members take a shift in the hospitality suite.
> 
> Mark Tumarkin
> Gainesville, FL
 
 I don't believe there'll be a point in time during the running of the
 Hospitality Suite that there WON'T be at least one HBD member behind the
 bar :-) Remember: the HBD server LIVES in Livonia...

- -- 
 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock

"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday




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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:14:48 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: floor malted Maris Otter

Brewers

I posted a few weeks ago that Crisp floor malted maris Otter.  It appears I
was mistaken.  They were the first producers of MO I had heard of, and
theirs is still distributed in the US, but it is not floor malted, and they
apparently do not floor malt.  Hope no one went on a wild goose chase.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:23:59 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Schaefer, was: more favorites

I wrote:

>Of course, that would be a CAP.  And as for specifics, you're in luck.  See
>Ben Jankowski"s excellent Brewing Techniques (January/February 1994)
>article "The Bushwick Pilsners:  A Look at Hoppier Days."

It would have been nice if I had included the URL, don't you think?  It's
http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.1/jankowski.html.
(I wonder if its absence was the work of that mysterious line snipper in
the HBD server?)

John Adsit <jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us> wrote:

>As the father of a homebrewer and
>on not far from being old enough at least to be the grandfather of one,
>let me introduce a caution.
>
>When I first started drinking beer in my old haunts in upstate New York,
>I had my favorites, too. ... If my son ever decides to honor me
>and clone it, I will ask, "What the Hell were you thinking?"

I think the situation with the Bushwick pilsners was a pretty unusual one,
and Aaron's grandfather chose a pretty good favorite, and a good one for
cloning.  These were some very characterful American pilsners for their
times (late 40's through 50's), when most US beers were wimping out.  They
had respectable hopping levels in the mid to upper 20s.

Just this week I got three more unsolicited fan emails for CAP from HBD
brewers.  Let me once again encourage brewers to brew this beer!

BTW, if you're at the NHC in two weeks and up at 8:30 am Saturday :-( ,
I'll be speaking on CAP.  Actually, even if you're not there, I'll be
speaking.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 08:54:55 -0600
From: John Adsit <jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us>
Subject: Re: Schaefer, was: more favorites

Jeff,

I will always bow to your expertise on all matters related to beer.  I
am not sure that we are talking about the same beer, though.  Your
explanation has this critical phrase: "These were some very characterful
American pilsners for their times (late 40's through 50's), when most US
beers were wimping out."

Aaron's grandfather probably drank that version, but it is a little
before my time.  I started drinking beer in the mid 60s, and I suspect
the wimpout effect, like an eclipse of the sun, had already reached
totality.

As a clue to what I drank, I offer the Schaefer Jingle, which I heard so
often it is still stuck in my head (with perhaps a few minor errors), lo
these many years later:

Schaefer is the one beer to have
When you're having more than one.
Schaefer's flavor doesn't fade
Even when your thirst is done.
The most rewarding pleasure (?) in this man's world
For people who are having fun.
Schaefer is the one beer to have
When you're having more than one.

Now, it seems to me that they were marketing themselves as the world's
first light beer.

The point of my message is that we who were introduced to beer drinking
in the 60's and 70's didn't know what we were doing, and we didn't know
that we didn't know.  I went to college with a large number of people
who considered themselves experts on beer flavor (and of course, I did,
too), but we had no way of knowing what the possibilities were.  German,
Czech, British, Belgian, Irish--none of us had access to them.  We
thought all beer was a variation of the Bud experience, and we very
sophisticatedly picked our favorites from among that lot.

A true CAP?  I don't think I have ever had one, and we are reaching the
point where only a relatively small and dwindling portion of our
population has.  I would love to try one of yours some day.

- --
John Adsit
Boulder, Colorado
jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us




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Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 11:03:29 -0400
From: Paul Shick <shick at JCVAXA.jcu.edu>
Subject: HSA experiment



Hello all,

	Steve Alexander makes a number of good points about the
proposed HSA experiment.  I'll include more of Steve's text than I
would normally, because I'd like to respond to several points.

My earlier post (volunteering to conduct the experiment)--:
>>So, in short, I'm volunteering .....
>> _IF_ he and Dr. Pivo can agree to rule out any stakes, both
>>personal and monetary.

Steve's response:
>I understand and appreciate your point, but the idea of a bet
>wasn't mine.  Dr.Pivo/Jeff Irvine offered a bet as a
>direct and insulting attack on my character (here's how to cure
>naysayers who lack conviction on their statements).  As usual
>he has misread me.

	Okay, I can't argue with this, but I'd prefer, in general, 
that we avoid such personal attacks in the HBD, and  I'd certainly
prefer, in this case, not to get in the middle of a personal argument.

	Again, I'm quite willing to conduct the proposed experiment,
and I have some responses to Steve's suggestions about it.

My earlier suggestion:
>>I might also suggest that the beers be bottle-conditioned,
>>in an effort to minimize cold side aeration effects.

Steve's response:
>Since I've only tasted the HSA in kegged beers I'd have to
>say no.  Removing bottle O2 is good for this test,  but the
>yeast also act as a reducing agent against other oxidation
>processes - including possibly the lipid oxidation (w/o free
>O2) that I expect to see in the HSA beer (see above).  Also
>there is the potential problem of yeast autolysis over an
>extended period.  It would be an interesting experiment, but ..

	I think that autolysis is unlikely to be a problem, but
the other factor Steve raises is a good point.  However, I'm not
convinced that counter-pressure bottling from a keg is a good
option for this sort of experiment.  CP filling is _very_ dependent
on the skill of the bottler to avoid cold side O_2 problems, which
might mask and/or mascarade as HSA symptoms.

Steve A:
>As to the real issue (HSA) I would like to see the experiment
>carried out regardless, *BUT* most folks forget is that there
>is good deal of time and effort and expense involved.

My earlier post:
>>brew 20 gallons of a nice lager [...]  always a fun
>>thing.

Steve:
>Not all fun. Gottta cold store it for perhaps a year using 20gal-years
>of fridge capacity.  At 20gal there will be none to share or sample
>except at tastings. Then there is the recordkeeping and the guy
>who pours the triangle samples can't taste.  Nice for the tasters,
>not so nice for the fridge owner and recordkeeper/pourer.

	My personal view of the experiment was roughly this:  brew
two 10 gallon batches of a malty, reasonably dark lager (O'fest or
Vienna,) with identical yeast starters, fermented under as close
to identical conditions as possible, where one batch was aerated with
pure O_2 in the mash (and boil?) while the other was kept as oxygen-free
as possible during wort production.  After suitable lagering, bottle
5 gallons of each, keg 5 gallons of each.  After, say, 3 months, send
6-8 bottles of each to an agreed on homebrew club to do a triangle
test.  Same at 5, 7, 9, 11 months (other HB clubs.)  At, say, 9 months, 
the kegs would be tapped at some HB club meeting to do a similar
triangle 
test, with a wider array of judges than the bottle tests.

	One reason for shipping the bottles to several locations is to
expose them to a bit of rough handling (which should help bring any HSA
effects to the surface.)

	I welcome any comments.  I'll be away for a week or two, and I
look forward to reading responses when I return.  Be gentle....


			Paul Shick
			Cleveland Hts, OH


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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:19:21 -0400
From: Bill.X.Wible at QuestDiagnostics.com
Subject: Father/Grandfather favorites




John Adsit <jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us> writes:
<about trying to recreate old variations of the same bland product
dad used to drink>

>If my son ever decides to honor me and clone it, I will ask,
>"What the Hell were you thinking?"

Thanks for that insight, John.  Never looked at it that way.
I guess you're saying it's like one of us thinking "I'd like to build a
TV like dad used to watch - with tubes, rabbit ears, and a UHF
converter, just to see what it was like."  when we now have
digital flat screen TV's with cable and satellite hookups.

Still, I think there is something to be said for the experience, and
for not letting these old styles of beer die.

Pre-prohibition lager seems to be a style that is gaining in popularity.
At the Buzz Off competion that was just held in this area, the american
lagers category had nothing entered but Pre-Prohibition Lagers.  (CAP's).

Mild Ale is a style that is losing market share and popularity every
day to the point that I hear it is even difficult to find in the UK.   I'm
not sure why it is declining or why there is not a version of it available
in the US (at least that I have seen.)  What I read lists several reasons,
such as a bad PR image, and people's mistaken belief that all dark
beers are necessarily bitter or bad tasting.  I think it would be a complete
shame if that style went away.

Cask ales are also all but gone, lost to nitrogen pressurized cans -
another new 'fad'.

I wouldn't want to see CAP, Mild, or any of these old styles lost to
history, just because something else is the latest 'hot' trend.

Bill




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Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:41:50 -0500
From: Jim Bermingham <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: HSA

It has finally occurred to me why some Home Brewers are worried about HSA. 
"You don't make good tasting beer" In other words, "Your beer ain't worth 
drinking". The reason I say this is because they are worried about what 
effect HSA will have on their beer months down the road. In Stephen 
Alexander's case he is worried what his beer will taste like a year after 
it's brewed. He must clone Bud. I guess if my beer lasted that long it may 
be affected by HSA also. Here in Millsap we have lots of Good O Boys and 
they like their beer, especially if someone else is providing it. As soon 
as I fire up my kettle and the smell of the sweet wort hits the air they 
start arriving. By the time the beer has finished fermenting, the barns are 
full and the overflow is camping out around the stock tanks. Hell, the cows 
won't even come up for feed. They are afraid that some of the boys have 
been away from town too long. Some of the cows are good looking now that I 
think about it. Anyway, by the time I get the beer keged and forced 
carbonated, there is a party going on. By feeding time the next morning 
everyone is gone and all the beer is too. So if you make beer that taste 
good, or if you have a dozen or so love starved cowboys and some good 
looking cows, you don't have to worry about the problem of the long termed 
effect that HSA may or may not have on your beer.
Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX
www.angelfire.com/tx3/bermingham/brewery.html




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Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 12:22:21 -0700
From: "Alison, Colin, Scott Birdwell" <defalcos at insync.net>
Subject: Mead & Cider guidelines

The recent discussion on HBD about inadequacies of the Mead and Cider
styles
in the new Beer Judge Certification Program style guide has not gone
un-noticed.  The BJCP has commissioned a
small styles team to focus on a more thorough update of the Mead and
Cider
styles.  This team will be lead by David Houseman.  However, he expects
to
utilize the experts in the these beverages rather than rely just on beer

brewers and judges.  If you are such an expert in Mead or Cider, please
contact David at dhousema at cccbi.org to volunteer your time to work with
this
committee.

Thanking you in advance,
Scott Birdwell
DeFalco's Home Wine & Beer Supplies
Houston (aka "Bonhamville") TX
BJCP Competition Committee Chairman



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Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 11:09:10 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at VMS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: mash out

When I was at Seibels and also I believe kunze states that a mash out is
really unneccessary.  If (and only if) one lets the mash go to completion
then it really should not matter if one mashes out since all the
convetable starch ahs been attack by the alpha-amylse during the final
mash step.  Also it has been suggest that mashout is a bad idea since one
wants some residual amylase activty present in case unconverted starch is
released during sparging.  As I recall mashout simple reduces the mash
viscousity due to heat and thus makes sparging more efficient.  Something
homebrewers don't really need to be concerned with unless they want to.
dr pivo and before him, jack s made a point of telling us not to buy into
everything the big guys do.  just my opinion.

Jim Liddil
North Haven, CT



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Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 14:11:33 -0400
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Vittles Vault

When the new puppy got to the point that we were buying chow in 40# bags
I borrowed my son's keg tub to keep it (the chow, not the puppy)  in. He
(my son, not the dog) told me a couple of weeks ago that he was going to
need it back for an upcoming party so that when I saw the "Vittle Vault"
in Pet Smart I thought I could return the tub and still keep the chow
neatly. While putting this device into the car the light came on. This
thing looks about ideal for storing grain. It's a more or less
rectangular "bottle" with a large screw-on plug-like top. The poopsheet
on the side claims it is air tight, thus keeping dog, horse, cat etc.
food free from the ravages of humidity, mice and bugs. The model I had
puports to contain 50# of kibble. I went back and took the remaining two
the store had. A bit pricey at $39 but they look as if they'll really do
the job. Seem to be stackable too.



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Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 16:06:44 -0400
From: "Ken Schramm" <schramk at resa.net>
Subject:  MIY2K

Okay, this is blatant begging, soliciting at its purest.

Get your hind end to the AHA Conference in Livonia (suburban
Detroit, for those who don't know our fair city that well) on June
22-24.  We have lined up Morten Meilgaard to speak on beer 
flavors, and Peter Blum to speak on the history of brewing in
Detroit.  We have Beer Without Borders, which should set the
standard for club nights for years to come.  Mike O'Brien has 
put together a Pig Roast ON SITE for the first time ever.  This 
should be a Dynamite event.  Web info is in the HBD banner.

Since Zymurgy never asked me, I'll have to say it here: 
THIS is why I brew.  I want to show off my best stuff to 
people whose respect I crave.  And while I'm at it, I'd 
love to see who can put something up next to my smoked 
salmon (Mark Tumarkin is puttin up a bunch of Mustard, 
and I'm bringing a bunch of Renner's bread, which may 
be better than his beer) . I am dying to see who 
brings what to the Hutzpah-tality Sweet, and just to see 
a bunch of folks I just never see anywhere else.

I don't brew to be better than anybody else.  I don't brew to 
learn chemistry or to learn history (although I have learned a bit, 
and I have liked it).  I brew to have something I'm proud of to
share with my friends.  I am looking forward to sharing things I
am proud of, and I'm also looking forward to having more friends 
when it's over than I have today (although based on how much 
work I got them into, there are some guys from the AABG who 
would probably like to have my hide right now).

I hope to see you there.

Ken Schramm (wind bag extraordinaire)
Troy, MI
2 kegs of mead, smoked salmon, pheasants, chicken,
turkey and cheese.
12 days until the best homebrew event of the new millennium.
Tell 'em Pfeiffer sent ya.  


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---