---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re: Stupid Brewer Tricks # 10476: 'A Watched Pot Never Boils' (Lance Levsen)
  The Jethro Gump Report ("Rob Moline")
  Aussie Rules forever ("Dave Edwards")
  A Chilled Pot Never Boils and other stupid human tricks (Crispy275)
  Signing off (OSULLS)
  Counter-Pressure (Lonzo McLaughlin)
  ballantine ale (Prestoniam)
  Corn Malting (Dave Burley)
  Re:HSA & Bud ("Philip J Wilcox")
  advice or opinion ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  mash out/foam/pH ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  HSA-An Issue or Not (Jim Bermingham)
  Fridge woes ("Jay Hummer")
  HSA and Partially Covered Boils (Richard Foote)
  dextrin & mouthfeel ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  Mort O'Sullivan (rob.green1)
  Re: Signing off (Some Guy)
  Stupid brewer trick & fining question ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Re: HSA (Jim Adwell)
  Iodophor composition ("A.Carminati")
  Stupid chiller tricks (Frank Tutzauer)
  Vittle Vault (AJ)
  Re:Digital Scales for Hops (Jim Bentson)
  Kcal vs Cals in Fermentation Heat Generated (Jim Bentson)
  Filtering ("Whyman Dental Lab, Inc")
  fruit beers (Mike Foster)
  a little of everything (BIL2112L)
  fridge woes (fridgeguy)
  hop and trub removal (Clark)
  More HSA, Bud, and an Anecdote ("Peter Garofalo")


* Don't miss the 2000 AHA NHC in Livonia, MI 
* 6/22 through 6/24 http://hbd.org/miy2k

* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!


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Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:49:38 -0600
From: Lance Levsen <l.levsen at printwest.com>
Subject: Re: Stupid Brewer Tricks # 10476: 'A Watched Pot Never Boils' 


re: boiling a running chiller

While not as fun as trying to boil while chilling, I was in a rush to
finish a batch. I had a couple of people waiting and was explaining
the process to them. This was before my burner so I was using the
stove.

I boiled the chiller no problem, and then proceeded to chill. Damned
thing just wouldn't go down. I wasted gallons of water, all the while
talking to these pe ople (my parents as fate would have it), one eye
nervously watching the thermom enter wondering _why_ it wouldn't go
down . . . .

I left the stove on.

Sigh.

Cheers,
lance


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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 01:28:44 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Report

			The Jethro Gump Report

In Defense Of Honour...

     Gentlemen, and Ladies...
     We must remember...what all of this is about ...is Brewers Helping
brewers...

     Otherwise...we are all just alone in our garages......

Jethro Gump





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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:06:04 +0930
From: "Dave Edwards" <eddiedb at senet.com.au>
Subject: Aussie Rules forever


| Mr. Yates wrote:
| | On a final note of insult, Dave Edwards of South Australia talks on the
| game
| | of Aussie Rules - played by poofters and bandicoots. What relevance has
| this
| | to real Aussie men and dedicated beer drinkers? I hope Dave, you don't
| | intend bringing the subject up with the crowd at the Burradoo Hilton, in
| | short young man, you will be slaughtered!
|
| Surely such a proud Aussie such as yourself could take even a small amount
| of pride in the fact that Aussie Rules is a 100% Australian owned and
| operated game. It was invented here, it is played here, it is not some
| bollox imported from merry old England.
|
| It is also a game whereby the national competition encompasses the vast
| majority of the country. With Tassie to introduce a side in the coming
years
| it will be truly a NATIONAL competition, not something played mostly by
two
| states which are half infested with poisonous frogs and spiders.
|
| As for the poofters statement, please, one would hope that a debate about
| the credentials of one's favourite football code would come down to more
| than just insults. But if that's the way it's got to be my question is why
| do those big, chunky, no-necked, rugby girls tape their heads up? What are
| they trying to prevent from falling out of their ears? Or is it more that
| they are trying to stop intelligent thought getting in?
|
| Ausie Rules for ever.
|
| GO THE CROWS!
|
| Oh yeah, beer is good.
|
| Cheers,
| Dave.




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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 06:42:26 EDT
From: Crispy275 at aol.com
Subject: A Chilled Pot Never Boils and other stupid human tricks

Jim wrote:
"I must have been tired or something because it was a good 10 minutes, and 
the thermometer was reading about 170F, before I realized that the physics of 
the universe had not changed but that I had left the water valve on the 
chiller wide open, and 45F water was shooting thru the chiller at a rapid 
rate.  I felt really stupid for a few seconds, and then had to laugh at the 
thought of me sitting there until the propane tank was empty, watching the 
pot that never boiled. Anyone else ever do this? Cheers, Jim"

Jim - been there, done that. My friend Doug and I were brewing two summers 
ago and our tale is of even greater stupidity. You see, we had a straight 50' 
immersion chiller (oh Patrick B., do you ever want me to return this item?) 
that we set into the boil kettle the 15 minutes perscribed before knockout. 
Added the Irish Moss and the flavor hops. Now, how or why we turned this on I 
can't for the life of me remember. But seeing that I have a hot tub, and that 
usually I drain it the night before a brew so I can use the wort chiller 
water to "freshen" the tub, I had no idea that I had left it on. Very similar 
feeling of disconnect with the universe as I watched the temp decrease with 
130k BTU roaring away. Another Crispy irreproducable brew.

Here's another "Wad da fug" moment I will share. I was brewing last year and 
put in the wort chiller (now equipped with a on/off valve so I do not have to 
run 75' to the valve to turn on/off). Brew finished and I open the valve and 
watch the temp go down (isn't amazing how fast it goes from boil to 100o). 
Dum de dum dum. Say, it looks for lack of a better word, turbid in my boil 
kettle. As I was brewing my standard 12 gallon batch I was confused to see 
the boil kettle appeared to have 13+ gallons. A few minutes later and the 
temp is dropping and the wort level is now approaching the rim of the kettle!

Yup, you guessed it. A pin hole leak in the chiller had occured and while it 
was chilling my brew it was also filling my kettle! Still fermented out fine 
(and no one was the wiser).

Looking forward to the AHA National convention next week. Stop on by the 
F.O.R.D. table at the Beer Without Borders night and try my Beef Beerbongione 
made with barley Wine - I think it is a winner!

Crispy Fry


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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:03:27 +0100
From: OSULLS at uk.ibm.com
Subject: Signing off



Having been subscribed now for six months I am impressed with the logistics
of the forum, and grateful to the administrators for running the show, but
I'm afraid the level and amount of scientific trumpet blowing at every
opportunity is hiding the real essence of homebrewing.
Whilst I can appreciate peoples desire to strive for maximum consistency of
a brew, and maximum understanding of higher brewing processes it is the
very fact that commercial brewers went down that route that resulted in the
disappearance of many of the 'real ales' that traditional  homebrewers try
to keep alive or resurrect.

I would like to add this final, and in my opinion factual
equation........more science=less traditional beer.

Thanks and Regards Sean O'Sullivan UK.






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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 07:25:38 -0400
From: Lonzo McLaughlin <lonkelm at dol.net>
Subject: Counter-Pressure

Does anyone have some good directions for building a CP bottle filler?
I saw a couple of articles but most involved some cutting and soldering.
It seems like there should be a series of compression fittings and 'T' pieces
that can make up the device.

Anyone own a hoptec filler and can explain all the pieces?



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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:04:48 EDT
From: Prestoniam at aol.com
Subject: ballantine ale

  In the early 60's I was stationed aboard the USS Forrestal at Norfolk. When 
on leave I learned to enjoy pretty women, and Ballantine ale.  I would like 
to brew a clone of the ale from scratch. It had a certain taste that was 
different. I can't quite describe it, maybe from being in contact with wood, 
maybe it had rye in it, don't know. Can anyone provide a recipe for 5 gal?   
Charlie Preston in Mansfield, Ohio


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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:56:17 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Corn Malting

Brewsters:

Keith Menafy asks if anyone has ever thought about corn ( maize) malting.
Although they don't do it today AFAIK, I'll bet Jim Beam, Jack Daniels and
a lot of other Bourbon Whiskey and white lightnin'  producers did!  {8^)

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:03:27 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Re:HSA & Bud

Glen Pannicke ponders the temps that bud air strips their beer at. While the
higher ranked judges did the 2nd round of judging and the BOS at the MCAB II,
Dr. Budwiper was busy at the podium explaining why budwiper was the greatest
beer on earth. In his talk he described the entire process of the stripper, the
why's, and during Q&A I directly asked him about HSA and stripping. He said not
a problem on the hot side. Cold side yes, but hot side no. The purpose of the
aeration was to remove these volatiles and their precursors.

On the tour I again had the good fortune of having Dr. Budwiper as my tour
guide. He took us through the vertically challenging brewery and we continued to
pepper him with questions. I seem to remember him saying that the wort entered
the top grant at about 180F from the whirlpool. By the end of the drop it was
down to 160F. They didn't want to drop it further, so they went to using HOT
STERILE AIR.

Maybe that is a hint to the nature of our conundrum. Perhaps O2 pickup under
160F is what is bad and causes what we call HSA induced cardboard flavors?? I
for one, haven't tasted cardboard in Budwiper, I remember stale beer odor/flavor
from left-over kegs at frat parties...but the last time I remember have Bud was
my first night of school my freshman year of college. My roommate scored a
6-pack of "tall-boys" and we ordered pizza...I distinctly remember us talking
about how bad the Bud was compared with other beers we had had. I volunteered to
make sure we got better beer next time, and so began my journey towards better
beer. Frankenmuth was our beer of choice, (Thank you Fred Scheer where ever you
are!!) Moosehead when we couldn't get the Frank, and Labatts when we were
poor...

I really mean no disrespect to the good Dr. whose name I totally can't remember.
His knowledge of commercial beer making and beer chemical properties and
relationships was very impressive. Even my roommate, with a Ph.D. in Chemistry
of his own and some time working a commercial Beer lab was very impressed with
the guys depth of knowledge and his ability to talk to people about it. What
also didn't surprise me was that his hubris was proportional to AB's marketshare
and at least as large as their marketing budget...

If any of you doubt Pat, Peter's and my word or ability to remember the numbers
correctly, maybe you should be attending these conferences? The next one is in
two weeks in Livonia Michigan. Its the AHA National conference. If you want to
discuss HSA and flavor impacts I am sure Morten Meilgaard, Fred Scheer and Ray
Daniels will provide you an excellent panal of professional opinions to ask
questions of! I hope to see you there!

Phil Wilcox




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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:25:54 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: advice or opinion

Steve counters my opinion on what type of advice be posted,
>>This seems to be an argument that people should not express their
differing opinions because it somehow harms the listener.  <<

Specifically in regards to the discussion at hand; frequently, 1 time a
week perhaps, a new brewer asks about how to improve his all-grain
efficiency. Which is more helpful?a) to say not worry about mash-out and
lauter temperatures this won't help a lot to reach your goals or b) to 
recommend keeping the temperatures up and lautering at the oft
recommended temp of 170 and see if this improves efficiency.
 Any *harm? no. Any help? doubtful.

>>The way to insult a person's intelligence and restrict their decisions is
to
paternalistically decide what arguments they should or should not hear.<<
 My point exactly, thank you for your support.

N.P. Lansing


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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:25:49 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: mash out/foam/pH

Steve maybe didn't understand my post on dextrinization of a mash
saying >>If denaturing wasn't significant the alpha-:beta-amylase 
>product ratio would be the same at 60C as 75C and so would the 
>mix of saccharides.<<
  Nope, let me quote Tom Flores, a Masters of Brewing Science grad
of UC Davis, "So over time during the mash, as alpha-amylase yields
more and more dextrins, the beta amylase has more substrate on which
to work."... "It is hard to say that beta-amylase activity will be
expected to drop off at a particular temperature, because the
thickness will determine what temperature activates maximum
beta-amylase activity."
>> and 78C is "mash off" (mashout).
>71C isn't mashout and 75C is marginal, below text values.<<
   Mash-out is raising the saccharification temperature, for what
ever end result the brewer desires. The particular temperature
chosen for mash-out would be defined by the particular desires of the
brewer._And_if mash-out is so inconsequential; how come you can find so
many references of what the temperature should be?
 >>Equally, If people aren't peptidase resting then they are not
>utilizing all the amino acids available for yeast growth - not needed
>for high beer quality either.<<
 Apples and oranges; with todays more highly modified malts a peptidase
rest can only serve to decrease beer quality.
Decreased head retention, decreased mouthfeel, increased fusel production.
>>Assuming that a certain protein in mash is equivalent to beer foam is
>Del's
>extrapolation that deserves challenge.<<
  Nope, that is the Beer Research Institutes _quantitative_measurements.
>> but Del's terse description was misleading.
>He failed to correct the misunderstanding in my response - his own fault.<<
   NO! I actually quoted the paper verbatim. I restated the text to
make sure that *you could understand. Your fault, and to quote *you,
"Little wonder that someone who cannot read or reason rejects my posts"
>> The paper measures CPF and foam of sweet unboiled wort, not beer, right ?.<<
  Measured CPF of sweet wort, CPF and adhesion in finish beer in commercial
sized trials.

"Table II shows the effect of foam-active protien on foan adhesion
in a commercial-scale trial. Glyco-protein rests of 20 min at 68C
(test1) and 71C (test2) were compared. The foam active protein
contents of the final beers were 54 mg/L in test 1 and 63 mg/L in
test 2. The SHV (Schaumhaestvermoegen) values were 141 cm 2
in test 1 and 160 cm 2 in test 2. These results also confirmed that
a rest >70C was effective in increasing the foam-active protein
content and _improving_(emphasis mine) the foam adhesion. 

                         Conclusions
The fluctuation of foam active protein in malt appeared to be
mainly due to variations in the barley. The content of foam-active
protein in barley was influenced by variety, producing region, and
even the country. Foam active protein decreased drastically during
germination. High kilning temperature has a negative effect on
foam protein. Maintaining a temperature of >/=71C during the gly
coprotein rest was effective in increasing the content
of  foam-active protein and _improving_(emphasis mine)
foam adhesion."

 "Pub # J-1997-0102-05R  -ASBC"
I extrapolated nothing. These are the findings of real beer researchers.
There is no point in me making up "pseudo-facts" to try to impress
someone. I simply state the facts.

>>Nathaniel chose to focus on pH.  I agree that 120ppm of calcium
> sulfate (but is that the experiment's method ?) should push the
>wort towards brewing pH. But pH=5.5 and 2qt/lb isn't typical and 
>3qt/lb is just weird.<<
 I bought up pH because you poopooed the results saying the pH was
unadjusted.
Now you agree the 150 mg/L Ca++ adjusts the pH.  5.5 is not that atypical,
and those people using a Gott cooler and boiling water infusions to
mash out are reaching the 2 qt/lb so that's not terribly weird either,
in fact it is especially applicable to them. I don't remember
mentioning _anything_about 3qt/lb. The water/grist ratio in the experiment
was 4:1. OK, first order kinetics would have the reaction rate slower at
that dilution, which is a *possibility why the commercial-scale test reports
an improvement with only a 20 minute rest at 71C.
My very first statement still stands, a mash out at 71C+ improves head
retention. You are trying very hard to explain that away but facts are facts.
 
You have other questions that may be answered in Hubert's post in #3336.

>>Please give a quote or retract this Del.  I never challenged the
>conclusion
>of the Suntory study. I rejected Del's extrapolations of the result.<<
  I_extrapolated_nothing_. I reported the findings of the Beer Research Inst.
You said the pH was unadjusted, the grist/water ratio is not normal, the
grind was atypical. So you did try to refute the findings of the Inst.
  If congress mashes are so irrelevant then don't bother reading
a malt analysis sheet, Cg/Fg differences are meaningless,
S/T protein ratios are pointless, viscoscity numbers are useless.
These come from a congress mash and have no bearing on real
brewing situations...right?

>>4/ I am NOT an advocate of no-mashout brewing in general, despite the
   mischaracterization.<<


from #3273...
>>The problem with no-mashout is not that the average extraction
>extraction, but 4 times out of 5 the actual extraction change is quite
>small.  The lauter water temp is only responsible for a marginal
>improvement in extraction, one we HBers can choose to ignore.<<

I see you don't specifically denounce "mash out" but the effects are
"quite small" yet at the same time "significant."
So which is it? significant or quite small?
 The fallacy in your experiment is you altered a second
parameter, the lauter rate. If all parameters were kept the same
there would be some validity to your conclusion.

I will be posting the results of another mash experiment
currently ongoing. It should give some answers as to
mash-out efficiency and attenuation.
To remove the variable of lauter efficacy this is
a "no sparge" test. 
 2 mashes performed, each from the same lot# of pale ale malt.
The same grist weight =/- 1gram
The same strike water amounts +/- 1 gram
A common water/grist ratio of 1.5 w/w
The same crush-2 passes through JSP fixed gap malt mill
The crush performed individually for the 2 mashes to eliminate
  sifting/stratification of grits/husks
The same sweet liquor volumes collected
The same volumes "post boil"
The same pitching rates for both samples
The same yeast packet used for both samples
The same total mash/grist exposure times
The same water (city water)
 The only variable is one was not  mashed out.  

If there are any falacies in this let me know so I can adjust the
steps to something of your liking. Then I can repeat the test
before typing up my results.

Onward and upward
 N.P. Lansing









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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:40:33 -0500
From: Jim Bermingham <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: HSA-An Issue or Not

John,
You can't  tell these West Texas Cowboys that they need to let the 
barleywines,  Triples and Old Ales set a spell before you drink them. 
 Remember they drink Lone Star Beer in Texas.  The beers you mentioned do 
need to age and HSA could be a factor on their taste when mature.  However, 
most beers can be, and if you make good beer and have lots of friends 
hanging around, will be consumed right after it has completed fermenting. 
 Just look at the Baron, he has started making kit beer for all his 
visitors.  They must have more taste than the local cowboys do.  It doesn't 
take my guys a few beers before they can no longer tell one beer from 
another.

Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX
www.angelfire.com/tx3/bermingham/brewery.html




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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 06:55:10 -0700
From: "Jay Hummer" <jayhumm at zdnetonebox.com>
Subject: Fridge woes

Dave Riedel asks:

Not even 3 months after I got my fridge into a perfect set-up
with temperature control, tap in the door etc, it has stopped working!

More specifically, over a two-day period I watched the temperature rise
to ambient room temp and stay there.  The compressor seems to run
(I can hear the usual fridge noise), but it's not cooling anything. 
There does seem to be a switch going on and off every once in a while,
but nothing seems to change (fridge continues to run, anyway). . .
- ----------------------------------------------------------------

One possibility is the compressor's cooling fan.  The compressor has
a thermal switch that turns it off when it gets too hot.  If your compressor
cooling fan has stopped working, the compressor will heat up quickly
and shut off before it does any significant cooling.

Turn your fridge off for a couple hours so the compressor will be nice
and cool.  Pull it away from the wall, take off the back cover and locate
the compressor and fan.  Turn it back on and see if the fan comes on
with the compressor.  If you hear the compressor running but the fan
isn't, you probably have a bad fan.  (Or, just call Forrest the Fridge
Guy, and he can do it.  My local appliance guy diagnosed this problem
for me and replaced the fan for $60.)

Good luck!
- -- 
Jay Hummer



___________________________________________________________________
To get your own FREE ZDNet Onebox - FREE voicemail, email, and fax,
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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:05:11 -0400
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: HSA and Partially Covered Boils

OK I'm jumping into the fray.  All this talk about lids and partially
covered boils and more pronounced rolling boils and improved hop
utilization and less evaporation and HSA (of course) got me to thinking I
should share some info.  Here's what we do at the Whistle Pig Brewery, aka
my basement.  

As you are probably aware, it gets hot, damn hot here in GA.  This fact led
me to a bit of serendipity.  I use a ss cone to cover my converted sanke
kettle.  It extends about 2" beyond the top around the circumferance of the
kettle top.  At the top of the cone is a 4" diameter outlet into which I
slip a length of dryer vent pipe, then an 90 degree elbow, then another
straight section to vent the steam out the top of a doublehung window.  The
top sash is pushed up to wedge the pipe against the top of the window to
lock the whole thing in place.  Steam, with its attendant heat and humidity
is vented to the outside.  I got the cone quite by accident.  I happened to
spy it when I was having some welding done at a sheet metal business.  It
was a cone that had been bent in a brake with just a haphazard opening.  I
had them weld a flange in the top to accept 4" sheet metal dryer vent pipe. 

Once I reach a stable kettle boil, the cone and vent pipe go on.  With the
cone on, I can add hops and Irish moss by using a long handled ss spoon.
The spoon just fits through the handhold holes in the top of the sanke.
Inserting the spoon followed by a quick flick of the wrist is all it takes.

Volume loss through evaporation is unchanged  at  about 1.5 gallons for a 90
min. boil for my system.  I wonder how the collective views this as as a
way to minimize HSA during the boil.

Each time I set up this contraption, I wonder what the neighbors might be
thinking.  "Ethel, thet thar Foote boy's got that still a goin' agin.  Best
call the revenuers!"


Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing
Murrayville, GA
A bit south of Jeff Renner where it's hot, damn hot!



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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:38:49 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: dextrin & mouthfeel

Dave Burley mentions, >>As the mouthfeel has little if anything
to do with dextrin content ( discussed endlessly in past HBDs and in
professional brewing literature) <<

Since all I have to evaluate is powdered malto-dextrin it is impossible
to compare with "fresh from the vat" malt dextrin. The powder being
produced from acid hydrolysis of native starch, it obviously is comparing
any fresh food against its' processed conterpart. Some mouthfeel
is detectable from processed M-D, but it is not an entirely pleasing
mouthfeel. The conclusion that I see is that the dextrinous mash
temperatures
are producing increasing glyco-proteins levels, and as Hubert posted
it is common for German's to use what they refered to as a "mouthfeel
rest."
The dextrins being coincidental with the glyco-proteins their total effect
on mouthfeel is most likely cumulative.
  What is the concensus on whether or not dextrins are sweet?

N.P.Lansing


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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 11:07:36 -0400
From: rob.green1 at firstunion.com
Subject: Mort O'Sullivan

I was able to track down Mort's email address via a family friend.  I just
spoke with him on the phone and he authorized my sending it along.  I hope
to meet him personally within the next week over a pint or two.  He may be
reached at 'Morto at arca-tech.com'.

Brew to live....live to brew

Rob



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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:20:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Re: Signing off


Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

In signing off, Sean O'Sullivan imparts...

> Having been subscribed now for six months I am impressed with the logistics
> of the forum, and grateful to the administrators for running the show, but
> I'm afraid the level and amount of scientific trumpet blowing at every
> opportunity is hiding the real essence of homebrewing.
> Whilst I can appreciate peoples desire to strive for maximum consistency of
> a brew, and maximum understanding of higher brewing processes it is the
> very fact that commercial brewers went down that route that resulted in the
> disappearance of many of the 'real ales' that traditional  homebrewers try
> to keep alive or resurrect.
> 
> I would like to add this final, and in my opinion factual
> equation........more science=less traditional beer.

To which I feel oinclined to reply...

 I appreciate your sentiments, Sean; however, I must disagree with your
 reasoning and conclusion.
 
 The scientific approach to brewing is not what is causing many styles and
 real ales to perish. Nay - it's economics. And yes: science can be used to
 drive economy; however, I caution you not to confuse the two as you appear
 to have done. "Big Brewers" are not interested in consuming time and
 materials to do small batches of "niche" brews, as many of our favorites
 have become. They are interested in turning profits, and to turn profits
 they must efficiently brew and sell beer with the minimum outlay of
 capital. To efficiently sell beer, it must be the least offensive to the 
 largest amount of beer consumers. (Sound familiar?) Scientific approach in
 the brewhouse simply allows them to optimise their production from their
 materials. 
 
 The same optimisation can be done on our scale with the better ingredients
 we use to produce the styles and real ales shunned by the "Big Brewers".
 In the very least, it can improved your consistency in producing those
 beers - and that, I believe, is what is being pursued by many here.
 
 Think it over. 

- -- 
 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock

"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday




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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:24:18 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Stupid brewer trick & fining question

Here's a stupid brewer trick I did this weekend that actually worked out
well for me:

Having stainless equipment is a major plus because I'm so damn lazy.
Transferring from the primary to secondary or keg is great when they're all
cornys.  It goes a little something like this:

1. Place the fermenter up on the table and the receiver on the floor
2. Connect both OUT posts together
3. Add a little CO2 pressure to the fermenter's IN post
4. Open the relief valve on the receiver to start flow
5. Open the pressure relief valve on the fermenter once the flow starts
6. Let gravity take over and save a bit of C02

Well, I don't trust the no-rinse sanitizers any farther than I can throw
'em.  Sorry, but I don't remember Iodophor or bezosulfo-whojamawhatssit acid
being one of the ingredients of the Reinheitsgebot.  So I sanitize and then
rinse with boiled water.  But I always forget to boil water way ahead of
time so that it has time to cool.  Problem with glass.  Not with stainless!

So I sanitized my receiving corny with iodophor (30 minutes before I'm ready
to transfer - LAZY!) and put the water on the boil.  Boil is over.
Receiving keg is emptied.  What the heck.  It's metal!  It can handle the
hot stuff.  Pour, swish and dump.  Put the lid on and do steps one and two
as above.  Hey!  Beer's flowing!  I didn't add any CO2 pressure!  But I did
inadvertently create a vacuum in the receiving keg once I put the top on and
the air started cooling inside.

I think I'll use this practice from now on however, I'll keep the relief
valve open on the fermenter from the very beginning and I won't close the
valve on the receiver until I'm hooked up and ready to create a vacuum and
start the flow.  I don't want the vacuum building up too strong and damaging
the equipment. 

On another subject:

Many books mention the use of PVPP (aka Polyclar AT or Nylon 66) to fine
beer.  Some sources state that it is filtered afterwards and others make no
mention at all regarding filtering.  But no where can I find anything that
states it MUST be filtered out of the beer.  Can proper settling times and
racking procedures adequately leave this fining agent behind without
carrring over into the finished product?  I'd rather filter as a last
resort.


Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen Pannicke
http://www.pannicke.net
"He was a wise man who invented beer" - Plato







Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen Pannicke
http://www.pannicke.net
"He was a wise man who invented beer" - Plato
	


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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:12:49 -0400
From: Jim Adwell <jimala at apical.com>
Subject: Re: HSA

Alan Meeker writes:

>>>>
No, the difference, as I mentioned, is that there seems to be some gremlin
who's job is to monitor my brewing activity and stir up very windy weather
anytime I'm ready to boil. So, I've gone from indoor boiling in nice still
air with "steam blankets" and all that jazz, to outdoor boiling where the
surface of the boiling wort is getting a LOT of exposure to fresh changes of
air.

<<<<

Perhaps you can boil a batch of wort outdoors, with the boiler *uncovered*
and compare the resulting beer with beer you have made indoors, and report
the results here, not that I think you'll find any differences that can be
attributed to HSA. :)

Good luck with boiling outside, Alan; I know the gremlin you mention well.
I used to boil outdoors, and after braving the wind, hot sun, rain, cold,
snow, and pesky flying creatures, finally realized it was time to move to
the garage when a particulary strong gust blew out the flame on my ring
burner.  By this time I had quite an assortment of cobbled-up windscreens I
had tried in a vain attempt to keep the flame under the pot where it
belonged.  I probably saved a lot of propane and decreased my contribution
to global warming by moving inside, and I am certainly more comfortable
brewing in my garage. 

Cheers, Jim

Jim's Brewery Pages:
http://home.ptd.net/~jimala/brewery/


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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 14:13:23 -0300
From: "A.Carminati" <carminat at email.com>
Subject: Iodophor composition

I've seen that Iodophor is made of 1.75% of Iodine and 18.75% of Phosforic
Acid but I don't know if it's is true !
Here in Brazil the product sold as Iodophor is Iodine 2% and Potassium
Ioditine (a solubilizant for Iodine). I just like to know if is adequate to
use my local Iodophor or perhaps I must produce something else like written
above !

Cheers !
        Alexandre Carminati
        carminat at email.com
        fone: +55 51 3376272



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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:04:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Frank Tutzauer <comfrank at acsu.buffalo.edu>
Subject: Stupid chiller tricks

So I just post my tale of stupidity to rec.crafts.brewing when I read Jim
Adwell's attempt at trying to bring his wort back up to a boil while running
water through the chiller.  I did the same thing but for backwards reasons.  I
was trying to chill my wort but kept the flame on.  Took 40 minutes before my
buddy pointed out what an idiot I was.

frank



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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:29:37 -0400
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Vittle Vault

Mark wrote:

>For those without access to a Pet Smart, these sound like the "World's
Best
>Food or Chemical Container" offered by US Plastics (Stock Number 75046,

>www.usplastic.com).  It is 14x14x20 inches, and has what appears to be
a
>"Gamma Seal" lid.  Their price is $34.26, less 5% for 2, and 10% off
for
>four.

A quick check of this web site confirms that these are indeed the same
as the "Vittles Vault" (either that or someone is looking for a patent
infringement suit). The discount is attractive. I ordered 4 more. Only
question is what the shipping is going to turn out to be. Without the
quantity discount I expect it would be about a wash with the PetSmart
price. Next time you need a Nylabone check these out and then if you
like them buy them from whomever is cheaper.



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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 13:53:33 -0400
From: Jim Bentson <jbentson at longisland.com>
Subject: Re:Digital Scales for Hops

Recently  "HopHead"  wrote:


>Does any one know of a source for a good scale for weighing hops? I
>would prefer a digital model but anything will do.

 I bought a Pelouze digital postal scale ( Model PE5) a number of years ago
at Staples. It has a 5 lbs or 2.2 kg range . It measures in ounces or grams
selectable by a button. In oounces it measures to to the nearest 0.1 ounce.
It is a little pricey at around $50 - $60 but we use it as a general
kitchen scale, postage scale etc. It self-zeros on start-up so you can put
an empty container on it, start it and just measure your hops or grain.It
has an auto shutdown to save the 9V battery which lasts for at least a year
for our usage of a few time s

One problem I have with mine is that it reads 10% low, consistently from
0.2 oz to 5 lbs ( as validated with a set of lab quality "standard
weights"). Usually these digital scales can be adjusted but I haven't
tried. I just mentally add 10% to the readings  or reduce my target number
by 10% ( I know these two are not identical so to save bandwidth, please
dont write in to tell me that) .

Jim Bentson
Centerport NY



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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 16:30:17 -0400
From: Jim Bentson <jbentson at longisland.com>
Subject: Kcal vs Cals in Fermentation Heat Generated


Recently the following was posted;

Can anyone out there resolve a discrepancy between two references? I am
trying to find a reasonable estimate of the heat generated during
fermentation. DeClerck's A Textbook of Brewing (Vol1, p. 420) provides a
value of 178 calories/kg sugar. In contrast, MBAA's Practical Brewer (p.
165) provides an esitmate of 160 Kcal/KG sugar. The numerical values are
reasonably close but I am really unclear on which units to believe. A three
order of magnitude difference leads me to believe one is a typo, but which
one?


There are two different "calories" used in the different literatures. A
"Thermal" calorie or gram-calorie used in physics and engineering is the
amount of heat required to raise the temperature of one gram of water by
one degree C. The "calories" in medical and food fields are actually Kcal
or "kilogram-calories" or one thousand "Thermal" calories. My guess is that
 DeClerck is using cals in the food - medical sense and the Practical
Brewer is using the engineering sense.

However, to add to the confusion, I checked both Hough's "Malting & Brewing
Science" pg 650 and the shorter book by Hough - " "The Biotechnology of
Malting and Brewing" pgs 115-116. They give numbers in the range of 6600 to
8000 KJ per kg of glucose equivalent. Using 4.186 Joules per calorie, that
would convert to 1600 -1900 Kcal/kg of glucose. This is is ten times higher
than your number from Practical Brewer!! The Practical Brewer number is
actually listed as 160 Kcal/kg of extract. My reading is the same as yours
that they mean fermentable extract which I believe equates to glucose
equivalent but I dont know for sure.

Do any of our resident bio-chemists have any clarifications here?

Jim Bentson
Centerport NY



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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 15:13:18 -0600
From: "Whyman Dental Lab, Inc" <whymandl at milehigh.net>
Subject: Filtering

Just for the record, the 1st place IPA and Strong Bitter at this years
MCAB were push through a 5 micron canister filter and then force
carbonated.
Just thought you all might like to know.
Happy brewing,
Rog



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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 18:56:22 -0400
From: Mike Foster <mike at asyoulikeit.org>
Subject: fruit beers

I usually use a lb. per gallon (rasberries mainly, but I've done one
blueberry). I put the (fresh-frozen) fruit in a large hop sock (5 lbs fits
perfect in the socks I get from the local brew store), and leave it in the
primary for a week, removing the fruit when I rack the beer.

I tried this without the hop sock once... A chunk of rasberry small enough
to fit through my racking cane wound up partially clogging the dip tube of
my corny keg.

- -- 
Wolfger
http://www.asyoulikeit.org/wolfger


Why can't they let a girl marry three men, or as many as want her, and save
all this trouble?  
- -- Lucy Westenra, from _Dracula_ by Bram Stoker


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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 19:48:46 EDT
From: BIL2112L at aol.com
Subject: a little of everything

Greetings! Props to all of you who responded to my Genny request! My only 
question is on the yeast type to use. I've narrowed it down to the following 
(all wyeast):2072,2035,1056,or 1272. Personally, I'm incline to go with the 
2072 or 1272 but, any feedback would be appreciated. As for the posting 
concerning English ale yeasts I can only say this I've used Wyeast's # 1318 
(London III) for brown ales as well as pale ales and (IMHO) I think it is the 
finest English strain available. Thanx to the bro' with the Rock clone- I too 
enjoy these kinds of beer (especially when the temps hit 90 degrees).Thats 
all I got. Thank-you.
                                    -Bill


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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:18:43 -0400
From: fridgeguy at voyager.net
Subject: fridge woes

Greetings folks,

 In HBD #3350, Dave Reidel laments his fridge's loss of cooling.

 My curiosity has been piqued by a line at the end of his post - 
"Dismantle all my electronics and hardware". Dave. What hardware 
and electronics were added to the fridge? Is this a frost-free model?
I need more info in order to be of much help. 

 Some fridges can sound like they're running when only the 
condenser and evaporator fans are running, and not the compressor.

 The switch heard once in a while might be a thermal overload if it 
clicks every minute or two. If so, the compressor may be damaged 
or the starter relay and/or capacitor could be bad.

 A click heard every few hours is likely to be the defrost timer - a 
common failure item. If the timer has been bypassed, or if the entire 
fridge is switched by an external temperature controller, the 
compressor might be running but the evaporator is iced up.

 Try unplugging the fridge for a day or so in a warm ambient and 
then plug it back in. If you have a puddle under the fridge and it now 
cools - that is the problem.

 Frost-free fridges should be continuously connected to power and 
all evaporator fans and defrost components allowed to function 
normally to prevent evaporator icing problems. Warmer fridge 
cabinet temperatures can be achieved by restricting air passages 
between the fridge and freezer compartments. 

 Please send more info if this doesn't help.

Hope this helps!
- ----------------------------------------------
Forrest Duddles - FridgeGuy in Kalamazoo
fridgeguy at voyager.net


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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 20:47:49 -0400
From: Clark <clark at capital.net>
Subject: hop and trub removal

Hi List,

I was reading through Papazians "Home Brewers Companion" again, and the
chapter on hop and trub removal caught my eye.  I have been all grain
brewing for my last six beers, and my usual procedure is to mash, sparge
and boil in two kettles on a gas fired kitchen stove.  At the end of the
boil I transfer all of the boiled wort to the larger kettle.  It is big
enough to hold a 5 1/2 gallon batch, but not big enough to boil everything
in.  I then sit this covered kettle in a large plastic tub filled with cold
well water.  After several minutes I change the water, and do this three or
four times until the wort is about 80 degrees warm.  It takes about 40
minutes to cool the wort.  I know, I know I need a wort chiller.  After
cooling, I pour the wort through a stainless strainer to remove the hops
and hot break material.  I let it fall into my fermentation pail to aerate,
pitch and wait for the fun to start.  Charlie seems to recommend removing
the trub and hops before chilling.  Is there a good reason for this
procedure?  Am I doing something wrong here?  By filtering after cooling I
don't lose any wort and upon transfer to the secondary my beer is generally
very clear.  I usually add Irish moss to my boils and I read recently that
it should be reconstituted in water for a half hour before adding to the
boil.  Any feelings about this? 

By the way, my seven hop plants are growing very well in their second year.
 Our weather has been cool and very wet this year and they are green and
lush.  Lots of old cow manure and thick mulch probably helps too.

The current string about old favorites brings to mind memories of Schlitz
back in the early seventies.  I always remember it as a good flavored beer
until the formula changed or something and it just wasn't the same.
Schlitz Dark was another favorite, rarely available, only on tap and one of
the few beers my wife would even consider drinking.  Were my eyes clouded
by the haze of a cold glass or were these beers really that good?  Any
recipe thoughts for either out there?  Thanks for the help.

Dave Clark
Eagle Bridge, New York

Drinking less, but enjoying it more.



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Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 21:20:07 -0400
From: "Peter Garofalo" <pgarofa1 at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: More HSA, Bud, and an Anecdote

Well, a nerve seems to be exposed. Now everyone remembers the perky but ill
informed A-B tour guide, and that damned air column. I can only postulate
that the wort is only briefly exposed, and thence heads directly to the
chiller. I assume that even rapid reactions take more than the five seconds
or so that the wort would be exposed. Also, perhaps HSA is not as important,
for example, in a hopped wort (all those nice iso-alpha acids are present
after the boil. All 12 IBU's, that is!).

I did ask twice, and the answer was "air" every time. I can't say that I
agree with Steve Alexander's assessment of Bud's stability, but I can't
claim first-hand knowledge, either! I only know that a Bud in any city of
the world tastes pretty much the same--for better or worse.

And now for something completely different...

During the tour, I was lagging in the rear with Andy Anderson, Jay Adams,
Steve Stroud, and a couple of others whose names elude me. The
aforementioned perky tour guide explained that a test batch was 10 barrels,
and gee, they even collected the CO2 from these tiny batches for re-use
elsewhere. Later in the tour, we were informed that only two cases of beer
are kept for evaluation, and the remaining 9.5 barrels is sent to the
Mississippi (in a roundabout way, I'm sure). This caused Steve Stroud to
quip that the CO2 must therefore be more valuable than the beer. Of course,
this was only in a stage whisper...

Cheers,

Peter Garofalo
Syracuse, NY



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---