---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Re:  Old timey ( not that old) beers, Hudepohl and JD, church keys (Jeff Renner)
  RE:  *** HBD SLAMDOWN! CANCELLED *** ("Joe O'Meara")
  See You In Livonia! ("Rob Moline")
  yeast A 514 (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
  NTH QLD Beer, Hoegaarden White ("Graham Sanders")
  Big Beer/Small Beer (SW) James Pensinger" <pensinger at deyo.navy.mil>
  Re: Bottling a 1+ year old lambic (Lynhbrew)
  priming after cold conditioning ("Dan Senne")
  pH H*ll, (Dave Burley)
  Wyeast 'shampoo tube' pitchables? ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  Foster's Clone is great! (Bill.X.Wible)
  Aliens & HBD Slamdown ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Re: Al K.'s Alt ("Dean Fikar")
  Re: Why do lagers take so long to clear? (Jeff Renner)
  RE: Why do lagers take so long to clear? (Charley Burns)
  Re: Pop-tops, HSA (Jeff Renner)
  Re: HSA source/Belgian yeasts ("Jim Busch")
  Foster's Again (Bill.X.Wible)
  Carbonic Acid / pH Depression (Dan Listermann)


* Don't miss the 2000 AHA NHC in Livonia, MI 
* 6/22 through 6/24 http://hbd.org/miy2k

* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 00:22:45 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re:  Old timey ( not that old) beers, Hudepohl and JD, church keys

Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> writes:

>Jeff speculates that the "high" beers available to 21 year olds were not
>the 6% as they were called. I think I remember on the labels it  said "6%
>but not more than 7.2%", didn't it?

You might notice that 6.0% abw = 7.2% abv.  I think this is the key here.
I think that is why you remember those two key numbers.  There is no
indication from the historic sources I have (Wahl & Henius, Nugey) that
anything over 15P beer was produced.  This would work out at about the 6%
abw/7.2% abv we're talking about.  I remember talking to the owner of the
"Ice House" (a beverage store in the College Hill part of Cincinnati whose
nickname indicates its former role as a storage house of cut ice from
rivers and lakes) that all those people who thought they were getting "6%"
beer were deluding themselves, and that the beer was really 4.5% or so.
This would jibe with historic sources.

(Another old fart's side note here - small beer outlets that were open on
Sundays as exempt from Ohio "Blue laws" were called "pony kegs" - which
literally referred to 1/8 barrel (3.875 gallon) kegs.  I wonder if they
were called that anywhere outside of Cincinnati.)

>I seem to recall that my father once told me he could buy "near beer" in
>soda shops and ice cream parlors in the 1920s to 1930s, just like Coca-Cola
>with no age restriction. I have the impression that these were not LA beers
>but beer with about 2-3% alcohol.  Any more reliable info on this?

The Volstead Act of October 27, 1919, clarified prohibition enforcement and
mandated 0.5% as the maximum legal alcohol content of any beverage - this
was near beer's upper limit.  This remained the maximum until the end of
prohibition in 1933. (Source - _The History of beer and Brewing in Chicago,
1833-1978_ by Bob Skilnik).

>Like Jeff, I got a chuckle out of Nina's lack of knowledge of what a
>"church key" was.

Nina - I hope you understand that this amusement was more at our old age
than your youthful ignorance.  I realize that the church keys of our youth,
as well as slide rules and other artifacts, now are relegated to the trash
heap of history as much as the buggy whips of our grandparents.

Jeff


 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 23:34:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Joe O'Meara" <drumthumper_2000 at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE:  *** HBD SLAMDOWN! CANCELLED ***

Mark tells us that the soon to be anual SLAMDOWN!
competion was cancelled this year.

Well, since WCW just swept through my town last night
(Billings, MT), I must paraphrase the commercial with
Hulk Hogan that was playing on ALL the radio stations
here in town:

"What you gonna do when the Mad Dwarf, and Dwarfamania
come lookin for you!?!?!?!?"

Guess I'll have to keep all my aggression pent up for
another year.

Thanks for the laugh, Mark.  You made an unbelievably
shitty day much much brighter, even if it is the
middle of the night.

Oh, and in case you're wondering, I'm not a midget,
except when I play AD&D style games.



=====
Joe O'Meara
Mad Dwarf Brewery (AKA my kitchen and coat closet)
ICQ # 60722006
http://homebrew.4mg.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/


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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 01:57:24 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net>
Subject: See You In Livonia!


See You In Livonia!

Cheers!
Jethro Gump
 


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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 07:35:30 +0200
From: "Aikema, J.N. (JohanNico)" <JohanNico.Aikema at akzonobel.com>
Subject: yeast A 514

Hi,

For my latest brew I used dry ale yeast code A 514 batch 60350. Package of 7
grams.
Does anyone know which yeast I used? manufacturer? charasteristics?
The gravity of my wheatbeer went down from 1.060 to 1.019 in 3 days at 20
degr.C (68 degr.F).
Thanks for all (flattering) recommendations of Promash. I bought the
Program.

Greetings from Holland, Hans Aikema
http://www.hopbier.myweb.nl/
 


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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:28:32 +1000
From: "Graham Sanders" <craftbrewer at cisnet.COM.AU>
Subject: NTH QLD Beer, Hoegaarden White

G'day all

One has to feel sorry for those living in the south of this land.  They just
envy us here in the tropical North, especially when winter sets in.  Now
Phil (and Dave come to think of it) will have to come up with better than
that to get my goat up, after all, it was a feeble attempt to have a go at
Queensland own beer - XXXX.  Now it may be true that its yet another bland
commerical beer, but unlike the swill that has to compete against the
'Hiltons' tin brews (has the 'Hilton' dropped from five star to one in one
brewers madness decision), at least XXXX uses real hops in their brews.  Yep
thats right southerners, and for those wishing to clone it (why, who knows),
they use Pride of Ringwood for bitterness, and Golden Cluster for flavour.
Mind you its less and less each year.

And to inform the rest of the HBDers, we in North Queensland long ago
succeeded and separated from the rest of Australia.  If it wasn't for the
fact that we are glued on to the ass-end of the country, we would have
relocated ages ago.  We have trained our tiapans (the worlds deadliest
snake) to hunt down southerners on sight, and dont try to hid in the water,
our salties(little lizards 30 feet long) will keep you company.  So Phil and
Dave, you are more than welcome to join me for a drink at my bar anytime (if
you can make it).  And for everybodies info, real Aussies live above the
Tropic of Capricorn, and dont let them tell you otherwise.

And speaking of things Nth Qld, one can remember the days of our own great
beers (great when I was young), when they were brewed up here.  Cairns
Draft, Nth Qld Lager (NQ for short) were the mainstay of a young person
thirst.We even had good old South Pacific Green.  Now that was great
radiator fluid.  My bet this would be a great beer for the one star
'Hilton'.  It was a real mans beer (only real men could keep it down).
Opps, I forgot Phil, you dont have any down there do you.

Why do I raise this, well it seems Nth Qld beer could be on a comeback.
Rumor has it a micro might be opening up here.  Will keep you southerners
posted.

Hoegaarden White.  I'm going to ask 'the bleeden obvious'.  I have managed
to get a bottle of the stuff, quite fresh.  Its correct HBDers, isn't it,
that the yeast in the bottle is the same as they use in the fermenter.
There is no foreign yeast in it?

Now back to training those snakes!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shout

Graham Sanders



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Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 08:05:52 -0400
From: "FC1(SW) James Pensinger" <pensinger at deyo.navy.mil>
Subject: Big Beer/Small Beer

I want to try an Imperial Russian Stout as first runnings and a small beer
as a second runnings.  Is there a way to figure out what the gravity will be
for the small beer?  I can formulate a recipie for 5 gallons of the big beer
but I know that there will be sugars left in the mash and figure I should
use them :).  Can i do it this way or should I make the grain bill larger
and stop at a certain gravity?

Mike Pensinger
beermaker at mad.scientist.com
V/R
FC1(SW) Mike Pensinger
Information Systems LPO
USS DEYO DD-989
My views are my own and do not always reflect those of my employer nor do
they constitute an endorsment by my employer.



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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 07:49:43 EDT
From: Lynhbrew at aol.com
Subject: Re: Bottling a 1+ year old lambic

OK, so I finally made a palatable lambic (kriek) beer and now it's time to 
bottle it. It is one year old, crystal clear, and has precious little yeast 
in solution. Can someone who does lambics give me some advice on the best 
priming and bottling techniques. And how long should it take to carbonate. 
Thanks, Lyn


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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 06:58:11 -0500
From: "Dan Senne" <dsenne at intertek.net>
Subject: priming after cold conditioning

Could anyone please pass along any suggestions on priming after cold
conditioning?
I brewed a rice ale recently using German pils and rice, hoping to make
something light that my father-in-law might like. The yeast was Wyeast
Kolsch and after the usual 2 week secondary fermentation at around 65F,  I
put it in the refrigerator for 3 weeks at about 45F while I was on vacation.
Now it's time to bottle, but as I've never cold conditioned beer, I don't
know if the yeast will have enough umph left to bottle carbonate with my
usual 6 or so, ounce corn sugar addition.
Is the addition of more yeast needed? how much? I don't have the equipment
needed to force carbonate.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions,

Dan Senne
Collinsville IL



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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:17:35 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: pH H*ll,

Brewsters:

Brian says that Noonan has a special place in  H*ll for people who mash
above 5.3 ( first, I am not sure that Noonan would agree) .  I think all
authors who do not designate the TEMPERATURE of measurement of the mash pH
DO deserve their own place in hell. And it would be crowded. Brian,  that
includes you as you didn't tell us what temperature you were when you began
adding lactic acid to adjust your mash pH.  Your 5.7 ( I assume measured at
room temperature) mash was perfect for a Pilsner style as this range is
what the malt comes to in a low salts soft water and where Pilsner Urquell
is mashed. You should never have changed it.

Now all this stuff about pH for mashes being in the 5.2 to 5.3 range is
true under certain conditions 1) The mash pH is MEASURED at the mash
temperature ( in the 150s F region) with a temperature compensating pH
probe. This same mash when cooled to room temperature will measure
something like 5.4 to 5.6 ( the pH drops on heating from RT by 0.2 to 0.3
units) .  2) your brewing water has calcium levels which help drop the pH. 
3) You are interested in the maximum sacccharification enzyme activity. You
may not be.

Now for the real kicker. Never even worry about a mash pH until you reach
mashing temperature as there are chemical reactions which take place  on
the way up which take time and which affect the pH. If for some unknown
reason you have to adjust the pH ( and you shouldn't) do it at mash
temperature and the next time you brew you will be able to adjust it before
you start this particular batch by adding the same amount of stuff.

If you want the minerally taste of a Thames pale ale then add the minerals
for this reason and let the pH take care of itself. 

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:32:01 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: Wyeast 'shampoo tube' pitchables?

I saw someone mention the 'shampoo tube' pitchable yeasts
from Wyeast. Who out there has tried them? What have been
your results? I have a lager-2124 and figured I'd step it up cuz
that is my standard practice; but what kind of lag times have you
seen if you've used them as a "direct pitch" yeast?

N.P. (Del) Lansing




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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:47:21 -0400
From: Bill.X.Wible at QuestDiagnostics.com
Subject: Foster's Clone is great!



I made the Foster's clone recipe that I sent in a few weeks back.
Transferred to secondary over the weekend, and I must say that
it does taste alot like Foster's.  That taste I always attributed to
Foster's that I could not describe accurately is there, and I now think
it is from the sugar.   Up to this point, I never used table sugar in a
beer recipe.

I think my friend will like it.  If anybody didn't get the recipe and
wants it, let me know - I'll be glad to repost it or send it to email.

Jim, I haven't spent much time online lately looking for clip art, but
the HTML project is due next Wednesday, so I have a feeling I will
be working on it alot this weekend.

I have one of those 250,000 clip art collections at home that comes
on something like 14 cd's.  In a worst case, I'll use what I can find
from there.

Bill




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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:12:37 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Aliens & HBD Slamdown

Responding to a post on HSA Brian Lundeen said:

>This is a very flawed analogy, Glen, as the existence of aliens is no
longer
>seriously questioned by right-thinking individuals. Did the documentary Men
>in Black not teach us anything?

That was a documentary?!?  I knew there was something to it.  Things just
seemed to fall into place too neatly.  I'll bet you Strange Brew was a
re-enactment of a true story.  Sure.  The names were changed to protect the
innocent,  but I've had beer that tasted like it had a mouse in the bottle
and I'm sure that big breweries are perpetrating some kind of evil mind
control...

Mark gave us the bad news on the HBD Slamdown:

>The HBD SLAMDOWN!, scheduled for the National Homebrewers Conference this
>week in Livonia Michigan, has been cancelled due to the recent outbreak of
>hugs, handshakes and making nice on the Digest.

I had heard that a monster truck show has been scheduled to replace the
cancelled slamdown.  Bigfoot will attempt to crush a HERMS system and a RIMS
system.  Hear the crumpling of stainless steel!  Watch the plastic buckle!
Copper tubing and brass fittings will be flying your way!  Watch as Big Foot
'mashes' the competition!  Find out who can survive against BIG FOOT... Big
Foot... big foot...


It just doesn't seem to be an adequate replacement.... humph!



Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen Pannicke
http://www.pannicke.net
"He was a wise man who invented beer" - Plato









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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 10:12:28 -0700
From: "Dean Fikar" <dfikar at flash.net>
Subject: Re: Al K.'s Alt

>I'd like to brew Al K.'s alt recipe, which calls for 5%-12% Aromatic malt,
>and the remainder Munich malt.  For me, that works out to about a
>half-pound to a full pound of Aromatic.  I've heard that Aromatic is pretty
>strong, and I don't know which end of the range I should use.  Has anyone
>else tried this recipe?  How prominent is the Aromatic, and how much should
>be used?  What was your mash schedule?  Also, what other styles use
>Aromatic malt?  I'm thinking of using a Steam yeast; any thoughts?
>

This beer holds a special place in my heart for three reasons.  First, it is
a wonderful example of the Dusseldorf style.  Second, I won my first medal
in the AHA NHC with it in 1998.  Third, every time I pour a glass it reminds
me of Al K whose presence on the HBD I greatly miss.

As for the grain bill, I used the following for my first, and probably best,
attempt:

10 lbs. DWC Munich
0.5 lbs. DWC Aromatic
0.25 lbs. Wheat

This was single-decoction mashed.  Al K recommends upping the Aromatic a bit
if not decocting.  I can't remember how much more but I doubt you'd want to
use more than about 10% of the total grain bill for the Aromatic addition.

My alt yeast is Wyeast 1338, also recommended by Al K.  I tried 1007 once
and didn't like it as well.  Also, I'd recommend fermenting at about 60
degrees and then lagering for a few weeks.

Good luck!

- ---------------------------------------------
Dean Fikar - Ft. Worth, TX (dfikar at flash.net)





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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 11:11:37 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Why do lagers take so long to clear?

Charley Burns <cburns99 at pacbell.net> asked
>
>Maybe three months ago I brewed a dopplebock. Its been at 33F now for at
>least 8 weeks and just now clearing up.
>
>10 days ago I kegged a steam beer (same yeast W2308) that is nearly crystal
>clear at this point. Granted the dopplebock was a much bigger beer, but is
>that the reason it takes 4-5 times longer to clear?

Did you lager your steam beer at 33F or just keep it at cellar or fridge
temps?  The cold temperature of lagering causes chill haze proteins to
complex with polyphenols and to precipitate out.  This doesn't happen at
cellar temps at all, so I'd guess that at fridge temps, it will happen
less.  That might be part of the answer.

The higher gravity d'bock also would have more proteins, so more haze.  Was
there a difference in brewing that would contribute to higer levels of
these proteins or to the polyphenolics?

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 09:01:04 -0700
From: Charley Burns <cburns99 at pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: Why do lagers take so long to clear?

The steam Beer was also lagered at 33F. It was a single step infusion and
included a lot of munich malt from the same lot as the dopplebock. More
crystal and more 2Row (as a percentage). The dopplebock was a double
decoction.

I was asking the question as a general observation that it always takes so
long for lagers vs my ales. I guess the question was really too generalized,
the malt bill, mash schedule and other brewing processes probably create too
many variables to generalize this observation in any valid way.

Oh well.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Renner [mailto:nerenner at umich.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2000 8:12 AM

Charley Burns <cburns99 at pacbell.net> asked
>
>Maybe three months ago I brewed a dopplebock. Its been at 33F now for at
>least 8 weeks and just now clearing up.
>
>10 days ago I kegged a steam beer (same yeast W2308) that is nearly crystal
>clear at this point. Granted the dopplebock was a much bigger beer, but is
>that the reason it takes 4-5 times longer to clear?

Did you lager your steam beer at 33F or just keep it at cellar or fridge
temps?  The cold temperature of lagering causes chill haze proteins to
complex with polyphenols and to precipitate out.  This doesn't happen at
cellar temps at all, so I'd guess that at fridge temps, it will happen
less.  That might be part of the answer.

The higher gravity d'bock also would have more proteins, so more haze.  Was
there a difference in brewing that would contribute to higer levels of
these proteins or to the polyphenolics?

Jeff



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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 12:49:14 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Pop-tops, HSA

"Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com> wwrote

>The wort aeration column that Bud uses
>could be to help reduce DMS levels.

They were explicit that that was one of the volatiles they were decreasing,
and sulfur compounds in general.

>hop aroma is the first but I guess Bud needn't worry about that.
> NO, I didn't say _all_beers must have hop aroma. Afterall, being
>a dumbed-down Munich Helles, it shouldn't have much hop aroma.

Bud traces its origins not to Munich, but to Budweis ( the German name for
Budvar) in Bohemia, now in the Czech Republic, but part of the
Austro-Hungarian Empire when Busch visited and brought back the idea for a
new beer.  I think they say that was 1876.  Pilsen (Plzen) is also in
Bohemia, and the beers are very similar.   They certainly do have full hop
aroma.  As a matter of fact, virtually all mainstream US lagers of today
are in the pilsner style, albeit much watered down by now, especially that
one that claims to have"the great taste of a true pilsner beer," Miller
Lite.

More on this in my talk at NHC in Livonia this Saturday at 8:30 AM (whose
idea was that time?).

Anheuser-Busch was certainly not the first or the only brewery to brew in
the Pilsner style in the US, but apparently Anheuser was brewing some
pretty poor lager before Busch got in the business.  I'll bet a recreation
of Budweiser of 100 years ago would be a pretty tasty beer - I'd guess
1.052, 20-25% rice, 40 IBU, Saaz flavor and aroma hops, mashed low (148F)
for full attenuation, long lagering on beechwood chips (which was a common
practice then).  Bring on the ladies of the billiard room!

 -=-=-=-
Del's comment about plastic six-pack rings reminds me of a funny story.  In
a previous life I was a park naturalist (that's one of those ranger-types
who talks about nature, more properly called an interpretive naturalist;
all those of you who thought I meant I walked around without my clothes,
hold up your hands).

Anyway, we would skin and stuff dead animals for displays.  Someone brought
in a muskrat (Oz alert - that's an aquatic rodent that looks kind of like a
skinny rat - or think of a greatly scaled down duckbill platypus) that had
died of starvation or infection with one of those rings around its neck.
We thought it would make a good display with the ring on it, so the boss
asked me to skin and stuff it.  I had never done this, but I was game.

During the skinning, its head came off because the skin had worn very thin
(these cause a cruel, lingering death), so I finished stuffing the body and
head separately, then stitched the two together.  It looked pretty good
until I pulled the stitches  - they were evidently too big and loose, and
when I pulled them tight, the head twisted around about 180 degrees, so it
was backwards.  We nearly fell off our chairs.  (Well, it's kind of dull
there in the woods in the off season).

That specimen never went into a display case - it was a pretty obvious
first attempt, but it showed up regularly in odd places in the nature
center for months.  I wonder if they still have it.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 13:20:31 +0000
From: "Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com>
Subject: Re: HSA source/Belgian yeasts

Dr Fix reminded me in private email that the original HSA research 
was performed by Hashimoto prior to the Weihenstephan folks picking 
up on it.

Spencer notes that a certain Belgian yeast strain produced a very 
clean beer when fermented around 65F.  Some strains will indeed do 
this, but if they are really typical Belgian strains then they are 
more accustomed to fermenting much warmer, try 80F and up!  A typical 
scenario would be to chill the wort to 65F with typical oxygen 
additions and yeast pitching.  Allow to climb without temperature 
control, and depending on how strong the beer is you can easily get 
into the 80s.  Various strains perform very differently when 
subjected to these conditions so some experimentation is expected.

Cheers!

Jim Busch


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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 15:12:04 -0400
From: Bill.X.Wible at QuestDiagnostics.com
Subject: Foster's Again



This recipe came out so well that I want to share it with the rest of my
homebrew club by publishing it in our next newsletter.  So I want to do
a small article about Foster's and Australian Lager, and include my
recipe.

I'd like help from the collective with 2 things - brewery info and Australian
Lingo.

I know Foster's is made for the US by Carlton and United, which I think
is owned by Molson, or possibly the other way around, CUB may own
Molson.  Which is it, what would I write?  What are some other Australian
Lagers - I've heard of Cooper's, and Victoria's (which I think may be an
ale).  I'm sure I will probably recognize the names when somebody
names more.

Second, I'd like some good *real* Australian Lingo.  I'm not sure how
real Australians feel about the Outback Steakhouse, but they list some
supposed lingo on their menus, things like  "Bonzer - Good"  "Tucker -
Food"  "Top Drop - Good Beer".  Are these real?  Who can give others?

Lastly, what words would Australians like to give to the American
heathens, er, Homebrewers, besides wishing they'd switch to the
metric system? ;)

Bill




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Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:54:04 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Carbonic Acid / pH Depression

This is for all you guys who have had much more chemistry than was
obviously good for you.  To what degree does carbonation depress pH?  I am
thinking of about 20 psi at room temperature.  How much infection
protection could one expect?  Is it enough to effect yeast?

Dan Listermann   72723.1707 at compuserve.com      dan at listermann.com


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---