---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  'nother Adelaidean ("Darren Miller")
  re: re: yeast  - *CORRECTION* ("Stephen Alexander")
  Aussie Mud Slinging ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Officers (Crispy275)
  Club officers / elections (Crispy275)
  The recent National AHA Convention in Livonia, Mi. (Crispy275)
  re:chemical oxygenation ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  STROH's (FredScheer)
  Re: mashing with fresh sweet corn? (Joel Plutchak)
  H2O2 for oxygenation (Demonick)
  Bulging Cans ("Tracy P. Hamilton")
  Electing Officers / Bulging cans / Pony kegs (David Harsh)
  grain/extract ("Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies")
  Re: aussie lingo....and/or any diabetic brewers? (Wimpy48124)
  Water Analysis (stevewo)
  Hangover Research (Brad Miller)
  Re: Water Analysis ("John Palmer")
  Technology ("Houseman, David L")
  TEMPORARY WATER HARDNESS ("Hill, Steve")
  Cherries ("Eric R. Lande")
  Sodium Hexametaphosphate ("Grant W. Knechtel")
  lambics and appellation control (piatz)
  re: pH heck ("Dan Stedman")
  re: oh the horror! (Bill.X.Wible)
  All-Gran (Lonzo McLaughlin)
  Water ("A. J.")


* 2000 AHA NHC pics and stories at http://hbd.org/miy2k
* JULY IS AMERICAN BEER MONTH! Take the American Beer
* Pledge of Allegiance! Support your local brewery...

* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:46:06 +0930
From: "Darren Miller" <darren.miller at adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: 'nother Adelaidean

G'Day to yas,
I too reside in Australia, South Australia, Adealide even. You could
piss from my house in Clapham to Mitcham.
Thats all
Drink on
Darren Miller


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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 03:12:03 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: re: yeast  - *CORRECTION*

should have read ...
>It's NOT likely the SNPA lacks it's FLO genes, what is more likely ...
       ^^^^



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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 18:54:25 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Aussie Mud Slinging

My recent references to the physical appearance of Mr Eric Fouch Esquire
were rude and insulting. They could be seen in no other light.
It is indeed magnanimous of Eric and Fred to take it as a compliment, in
fact a "badge of honour". Though I must silently confess I had no antipodal
inferences in mind.

But you can see, since of recent time a reasonable number of Aussie brewers
have surfaced on the HBD, that a favourite national sport of ours is to tear
each other to pieces. Well, we really prefer to tear people of other
nationalities to pieces. But left in a room (or forum) by ourselves, as you
can see, pretty soon we are all "up each other". Sorry, I think that should
read "at each other".

It was in this spirit that the great Aussie mud slinging over whose beer is
best, came into being.

This is most apparent on a Friday night at the Burradoo Hilton when "out of
state" beer buffs are silly enough to tell the locals where they are from.
And even sillier to add that in their state the beer is better.

A good night of biffo always ensures!

There are now far too many Aussies on this digest for me to collectively
insult all of them, they're coming out of the woodwork!

I can feel a "cat swinging" coming on. Especially in this freezing cold
weather here in the Southern Highlands. One has to do something to keep
warm.
 Wes Smith says "Great weather for making lagers"
Only trouble is, it's not great weather for drinking lagers. More
appropriate to be knocking back a good strong Scotch Ale I would think,
maybe even a Bonox as well.

A Bonox warms the heart (especially if you stir in a tea spoon of battery
acid) but recently Steve Lacey exhausted himself writing a prolific post and
declared he was going to "Have a Bex and a good lie down"

What a Sydney poofter!!

Here in Burradoo, serious beer drinkers have a Becks (or two) and a good lie
down!!

Cheers
Phil






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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:09:29 EDT
From: Crispy275 at aol.com
Subject: Officers

Here at the Fermental Order of Renaissance Draughtsmen (F.O.R.D.) we have a 
president (meeting organizations, general management, meeting itinerary), 
vice president (major responsibility - summer picnic & competition director), 
treasurer ($), secretary (newsletter, membership id cards, membership 
database), web page coordinator, equipment manager (style series, books, 
magazines and other handouts), club mooch (a fine lady who does not brew but 
loves our beer and who doubles as our photographer).

All officers are responsible for PR, obtaining club discounts from local 
homebrew retailers, as well as raffle prizes for club picnics. We try to meet 
quarterly to set up events, calenders, meek out responsibilities, etc. We 
need a quorum for expenditures. Check our club's newsletter linked to this 
forum and you will see what we have been up to and some of the activities we 
do. Hope this helps.


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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:17:40 EDT
From: Crispy275 at aol.com
Subject: Club officers / elections

Oh yeah, elections are in November (solicitations for nominations are made in 
September & October newsleteers and meetings with lots of cojoling and 
whining at meetings) and the new officers are installed at the December 
meeting. We rarely have more than one person running for a position, so there 
is little need for ballots. Last year we had 2(!) people run for prez, so we 
utilized our web site to have people vote, so they had a month to make their 
choice.

While we have approx. 60-70 paid up members each year, the core of the club 
is about 3 dozen or so hard core brewers who make the majority of the 
meetings. Our best events tend to be summer picnic, christmas meeting and 
anytime we can get a local beeer distributor of interesting brews to drop off 
a few cases of their wares for our "evaluations". 


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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:28:44 EDT
From: Crispy275 at aol.com
Subject: The recent National AHA Convention in Livonia, Mi.

OK, a week has passed and I have a few minutes to reflect on the recent 
MIY2k. In a nutshell, this was an awesome event that facilitated the kind of 
brewers community that one rarely gets to experience outside of a club 
meeting, only 3-4 days longer.

First, an observation. Homebrewers are the most "ruley" (as opposed to 
unruley) group of drinkers I have ever meet. To paraphrase Max Yazger of 
Woodstock fame, "Three days of fun and beer, and nothing but fun and beer". 
Considering many of us had our first taste of brew by 9:00am and did not get 
to bed anywhere near a reasonable hour, it is incredible to me to see no 
fights, no loud arguements (other than "No, this brew is definitly better!), 
hardly anything that would qualify as disention.

Being around all the names that I respect and have gotten to know through 
various media was exciting. Being a part of the actual organization and help 
was fullfilling. Making new friends, trying awesome brews was great! Folks, 
if you ever get the beer bullets necessary to pull this off, you got to 
experience one of these! 

My hat goes off to all those involved with the organization and delivery of 
this event. It takes a lot of time and commitment to pull it all off and with 
the exception of running out of glasses early and often, it basically went 
off without any anguish, serious SNAFU's or disasters. In fact, if you were 
not part of the behind-the-scenes action, it appeared to go off without a 
hitch. The knowledge gained, the feedback received and the memories made will 
stay with me for a long time. 


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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 08:54:40 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: re:chemical oxygenation

Dan L. asks, >>Now, Is there a non gas way to oxygenate wort?  I am
thinking hydrogen peroxide or something.<<
  Sorry, but definitely_not_hydrogen peroxide, though the concept sounds
nice
peroxide is a sanitizer, do you want to sanitize the yeast into oblivion?
I read this in a Brewing Techniques a few years back.
  Oh by the way, the guy stiffed me on those beer corks I had been planning
to get, still searching though.

N.P. (Del) Lansing


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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:01:53 EDT
From: FredScheer at aol.com
Subject: STROH's

>>Bob Hall wrote:
>>Anyway, I think the beer that opened my eyes 
>>to a higher level of quality was Stroh's
>>Signature. It was such a revelation to my 
>>uncultured taste buds that I
>>even wrote Stroh's a letter of appreciation. 

Bob:
When I saw your posting, I remembered a quote that
Peter Blum (former STROH Pilot plant manager)
said at the AHA convention last week during his lecture
on History of Brewing in Detroit:
"When you had a STROH beer, you never go back to
another brand --- it would be like kissing your sister" :-)

Fred M. Scheer


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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 08:28:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: mashing with fresh sweet corn?

In HBD #3365 Dan Senne asks:
>Although the season is short, here in Collinsville, IL we're
>blessed with some outstanding sweet corn during the summer.
>[...] Has anyone ever brewed using fresh corn as an adjunct?

   I haven't.  But if you're willing to stretch your definition
of "beer" a bit beyond the average, you can do what I plan to
do: give chicha a try.  A friend-I've-never-met has some
descriptive web pages up: http://users.deltanet.com/~kacz/
- --
Joel
Contemplating indigenous brewing in feed-corn country, Illinois



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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 06:55:53 -0700
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: H2O2 for oxygenation

>Now, Is there a non gas way to oxygenate wort?  I am thinking
>hydrogen peroxide or something.

In the "great minds think alike column", I posed the exact same 
question in HBD 1771, 3 July 1995.  Subsequent to the question
the idea was discussed randomly until about HBD 1815, under the
key words peroxide/H2O2/aeration (watch for capitalization)

After the discussion I was convinced that it was not a good idea. 
A post in HBD 1809 by Glen Tinseth convinced me:

>Not to mention oxidizing hop aroma and flavor compounds, reduced
>melanoidins, and a host of other things you don't want to oxidize.
>I'll stick with my little aquarium pump, bubbler, and HEPA filter.

Domenick Venezia



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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 08:47:49 -0500
From: "Tracy P. Hamilton" <chem013 at uabdpo.dpo.uab.edu>
Subject: Bulging Cans

>>Al Beers asks about bulging extract cans of Mountmellick stout extract
>>and should he: a) toss 'em or b) Use w/ caution?

Kim Thomson:
>I would go ahead and use them. I have seen these cans
>numerous times with a bit of a bulge and no flavor difference. Why not
>go ahead and brew it if you are going to toss it anyway? You can always
>toss it later in the brewing process if the flavor is wrong at racking.

I agree 100% with Kim, except for boiling time (see below).

I got a forgotten can once that was significantly past the expiration date,
(not from Kim!) and the bulge was very noticeable.  I tried to go ahead
and see if I could salvage it, so I decided to make a Spice Beer.
Because of my concern about botulism, I called it Scary Spice.
When told what I did, some people would not drink it.
It was indeed the Spice Girls of beer.  It was dry and astringent
(the latter because it had waaaaay too much ginger).  Age did not
improve this one!. :(  I suspect that whatever was in there
ate up some of the sugar, and the highly fermentable rice solids I also
added didn't help.

In the process I did some reading on botulism.  Botulism toxin is
destroyed by 10 minutes of boiling.  So I would do at least that,
if there is a concern about a bulging can.  Also, in most cases,
it is not botulism, but one can't take the chance it isn't.  I doubt
that your cans are as extreme as mine was.  You should have plenty
of sugar, and I would guess the flavor will also be fine.  Taste the
wort after 10 min.

>>Al also states: Contents will be boiled for an hour....

Kim:
>We recommend that canned kits only be boiled for 5 min. for sanitation.
>Further boiling only serves to darken the beer (though not a problem
>with a stout) and to caramelize the flavor. The manufacturer doesn't even
>recommend boiling for the 5 min.

Tracy P. Hamilton
Birmingham, AL



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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 10:43:17 -0400
From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net>
Subject: Electing Officers / Bulging cans / Pony kegs

Bill.X.Wible at QuestDiagnostics.com asks about electing officers:

First, e-mail me privately if you want a copy of our club by-laws.  We
"adapted" them from the Dayton, OH club (DRAFT) a few years back and its
handy to be able to have a written document for reference.  It actually
lists explicit duties of each postition.

Our club (Bloatarian Brewing League, sponsor of Beer and Sweat, the
world's only all keg homebrew competition, held every August in
Cincinnati, see hbd.org/bloat for details - just a plug, Eric!) elects
officers for two year terms.  Positions include President, V.P.,
Treasurer, and Secretary.  The Newsletter Editor is an appointed
position, although bylaws state that the Secretary MAY publish the
newsletter.  This prevents an editor from acting to the detriment to the
club, but this isn't a problem with most people stupid enough to take
the job (note:  currently, that's me)  We take officer nominations in
October, hold elections in November, and install new officers in
December.  Voting is done by secret ballot at the meeting.  One
advantage of spreading out the nomination/voting process is that
candidates can have a blurb in the newsletter (a SHORT paragraph)
exhorting election of their opponent, and there is time to find other
people in case of a lack of nominees (it happens sometimes)

We're already talking about the next batch of officers to try and find
new blood - you really need to plan ahead from the club standpoint. 
Plan ahead on your elections and get the word out.  I don't think the
particular month really matters, but you don't want to have your
elections during a historically light attendance month (i.e. summer
during vacation time)  You may find people willing to be an officer if
asked, but some people need to be asked.

- --------------------------------------
ALABREW <alabrew at mindspring.com> speaks on bulging cans

My only direct experience with bulging cans is some infamous "Premier"
extract purchased a few years ago at a great discount.  The beers made
from this stuff were vile and revolting.  And those were their good
qualities.  Want me to tell you how I really feel?  Not hold back?   ;)

> We recommend that canned kits only be boiled for 5 min.....
> I don't know where this "boil for 1 hour" thing started....

Probably because most recommend UNHOPPED extract so you actually have a
clue about what hopping level you will end up with.  From what I can
tell, 2 cans of extract could give you anywhere from 15 to 35 IBU in 5
gallons depending on brand and I've never seen it specified on the can. 
Of course, I haven't bought a can of extract in several years, so maybe
that has changed.

- ------------------
On pony kegs - don't forget that the true pony keg required the wooden
"hammer into place" tap!  If you missed on your first try, you had a
beer geyser on the ceiling until you got it beaten into place.  As far
as corner carryout stores being called "pony kegs", I think that's just
Cincinnati provincialism (please?).  

Dave Harsh
Bloatarian Brewing League			Cincinnati, OH


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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 08:46:14 -0600
From: "Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies" <orders at paddockwood.com>
Subject: grain/extract  

 "Perry Q. Mertz" <pqmertz at netweavers.com> asks " If I can buy M&F extract
for $1.75/lb, am I going to REALLY increase the taste of my beer that much,
or is the ego thing about doing it all yourself worth it"

Hi Perry, since you are already using a good quality extract with fresh
specialty grain, you are already making great ale.

 FWIW, one of our customers just took a Gold medal in the Aurora Brewing
Challenge 2000 in Edmonton, AB, with one of our EasyBrew (dry malt extract
and specialty grain) kits for his Scottish 60 Shilling.  ABC2000 is the only
Canadian competition that qualified for MCAB3 (Masters Championship of
Amateur Brewers), so I think competition was strong. He was competing with
all-grainers. So you can make great beer from extract. Bass is certainly
within reach.

But for a really excellent beer I believe that all-grain can be much better
than extract, if you use high quality malt. Cheap grain may not give as good
results as extract! And the satisfaction of knowing you did it from scratch
is immense.

Cost and time are probably large factors as well. An all grain batch runs
around $15 here, and one of our extract kits is about $25.  But the extract
kit is finished in and hour and a half, but the all-grain brew day runs
around 5 and a half hours.

cheers,

______________________________________________
Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK
orders at paddockwood.com   www.paddockwood.com



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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:03:20 EDT
From: Wimpy48124 at aol.com
Subject: Re: aussie lingo....and/or any diabetic brewers?

    In regards to the recent posts about aussie speak, are our fellow brewers 
DownUnder trying to rock my world by telling us that Outback Steakhouses 
aren't kosher ?!?!  I mean, it's always been my dream to someday visit 
Australia.
 When I bring it up to the wife she lets [keyword lets, she's so tight with 
that damn purse she squeeks!!] me go to the OutbackSteakhouse to get a couple 
of Fosters [hey, it's not good but I want to be aclimized to the local suds 
if ever she says yes] ,look at the stuffed Koalas and boomarangs on the 
walls, and get some bonzer tucker, Then she takes me home and sits me in 
front  of the television to watch a marathon of "The Crocodial Hunter", keeps 
me mug filled and hopes I pass out forgeting all this nonsense! But now.. 
what's the use? If it's not authentic, well why go? I always pictured the 
Baron and the others brewing in khaki shorts and shirts with bush hats on, 
grabbing the occasional snake or croc, saying..." Gawd, ain't she a beauty, 
well by cricky, we'll let her go before she gets hurt...... You guys can't 
tell me that that isn't the way it is in OZ !.........first the toothfairy, 
then Santa Claus, Now this! Sometimes life sucks! Oh Well, That's probally 
why we have beer!
 ---------------------
     On a different note, I'm putting together a RIMS.  I have almost 
everything, just have to put it together and I hope to start brewing with it  
in September. I'm just getting back into the hobby after a 4 year absence due 
to health reasons Are there any folks that are brewing that are type 2 
diabetics?  My sugar is in control without medication, just  excersize and 
eating right. I just missed brewing so much I had to get back in!  I just 
wanted to know if I'm an anomally?         

IN BEER, THERE IS LIFE!!


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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:43:00 -0600
From: stevewo at us.ibm.com
Subject: Water Analysis



Looks like my formatting has something to be desired in the 1st post.  Let
me try another way.  Any water types care to let me know what this "really"
says?  Here is the report:

Hardness (ppm)
  Mean: 102
  Median:  105
  Standard Deviation: 15.5
  Minimum:  59
  Maximum:  144
  Count:  30
  Coefficient of Variation:  15%

TDS (ppm)
  Mean: 224
  Median:  224
  Standard Deviation: 25.8
  Minimum:  157
  Maximum:  298
  Count:  30
  Coefficient of Variation:  12%

Sodium (ppm)
  Mean: 30
  Median:  30
  Standard Deviation: 5.0
  Minimum:  18
  Maximum:  38
  Count:  30
  Coefficient of Variation:  17%

pH (units)
  Mean: 7.7
  Median:  7.8
  Standard Deviation: .32
  Minimum:  6.9
  Maximum:  8.2
  Count:  30
  Coefficient of Variation:  4%

Chlorine (ppm)
  Mean: 0.8
  Median:  0.8
  Standard Deviation: .12
  Minimum:  0.6
  Maximum:  1.0
  Count:  30
  Coefficient of Variation:  14%

Temperature (deg C)
  Mean: 25.5
  Median:  25.4
  Standard Deviation: 1.47
  Minimum:  22.1
  Maximum:  28.0
  Count:  30
  Coefficient of Variation:  6%

Presently, I do nothing to my water for brewing.  I use water that I gather
from the fridge water dispenser that has a carbon filter between the hose
from the house line and the hose to the fridge.  I make all my (American)
pale ales and lagers using this water.  I all-grain brew using this (carbon
filtered) water for my mash water and sparge water.  I've never had any
complaints nor problems, but it can never hurt to be better!

TIA,

Steve Wood
Corona, AZ.
Internet: stevewo at us.ibm.com





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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:26:45 -0800
From: Brad Miller <millerb at targen.com>
Subject: Hangover Research

	After doing years and years of research in the Department of 
Hangover Studies at the University of Washington the two crucial 
remedies that I have discovered are: Gatoraid and the Burger King 
Wopper.  When taken together they have a synergistic effect on the 
down regulation of exbibation.  (I recommend the Lemon Lime Gatoraid 
due to the staining powers of the other flavors in the event of a 
"Return to Sender")  While the Gatoraid cures "That Deep Down Body 
Thirst",  the Wopper, or rather the Wopper's grease coats the 
stomach. (Or give the body something else to worry about)  Please 
note:  Other burgers have not apartmently, I mean clinically tested, 
so results may vary.  It has also been noted that BudMilloors will 
induce a hangover with more regularity than will homebrew.

Brad


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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 09:33:08 -0700
From: "John Palmer" <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: Re: Water Analysis

Steve posted a water analysis that I could not quite make out due to
ascii formating conflicts with my Outlook email program. I will hazard
a guess that the relevant numbers are:
Hardness (as CaCO3) 102 ppm
Sodium 30 ppm
Chlorine 0.8 ppm

Total Dissolved Solids are not relevant. pH is not really relevant
either, except as an indicator of the veracity of the report (it
should be between 7-8.3, anything else is weird). What is missing here
is an Alkalinity measurement. It would be nice if Sulfate was listed
too.

If you are an extract brewer, you are concerned with Sodium, Chloride
and Sulfate because of their affect on beer flavor. Briefly: sodium
and chloride in small amounts add sweetness and smoothness, sulfate
adds crispness to the hop bitterness. A high-levels combination of
sodium and sulfate makes for a very harsh bitterness.

If you are an all-grain brewer (or steeping a lot of grain) then you
are concerned with the above, but more concerned about the Hardness
and Alkalinity balance (aka. Residual Alkalinity) and their affect on
mash pH. Hardness is made up of Calcium and Magnesium, and Alkalinity
is made up of Bicarbonate (HCO3). Residual alkalinity is an indicator
of the mash pH potential of the water.

>From my book: www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15.html
"In 1953, P. Kohlbach determined that 3.5 equivalents (Eq) of calcium
reacts with malt phytin to release 1 equivalent of hydrogen ions which
can "neutralize" 1 equivalent of water alkalinity. Magnesium, the
other water hardness ion, also works but to a lesser extent, needing 7
equivalents to neutralize 1 equivalent of alkalinity. Alkalinity which
is not neutralized is termed "residual alkalinity" (abbreviated RA).
On a per volume basis, this can be expressed as:
mEq/L RA = mEq/L Alkalinity - [(mEq/L Ca)/3.5 + (mEq/L Mg)/7]
where mEq/L is defined as milliequivalents per liter."

A 100% base malt mash made with distilled water will have a mash pH of
5.7-5.8
The residual alkalinity value will change that. I have constructed a
nomograph that approximates the changes based on Kohlbach's work.
Last month when Jim LIDDIL posted his experimental mash pH results, it
agreed with the values predicted by the nomograph. (So the theory
continues to be sound, and the nomograph is pretty accurate to the
theory.)

Hope this helps,
John Palmer
jjpalmer at realbeer.com
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy
www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer/
How To Brew - the book
www.howtobrew.com/





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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:20:09 -0400
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Technology

While this discusses wine, the same issues may relate to any corked product
including I image, beer.

Brussels.  Microwaving may eliminate corked wine problems.
   Corked wine, the curse of gastronomes for centuries, may be consigned to
history by microwaving the stoppers before bottling, according to research
published yesterday.  
   A consortium of German, Portuguese and Spanish researchers, funded by the
European Union, has developed a technique of bombarding corks with
microwaves before bottling in order to kill off damaging microbes present in
natural cork.
   These microbes cause a chemical reaction that ruins 500 million Euros
($695million) worth of wine every year, according to the EU's executive
body, the European Commission.    
                    Reuters


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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:29:24 -0400
From: "Hill, Steve" <SHill at advanta.com>
Subject: TEMPORARY WATER HARDNESS 

Hello All:

This question is for the water critics.  

I just moved into a house that has VERY hard well water. Lets just say that
when I boil a pot of water for pasta --- there is a nice lime deposit on the
bottom when finished.

I have a 15 gallon 3 tier Herms system.  I plan to boil 15 gallons of water
the night before brewing in the Sparge/Hot liquor tank to drop out the
temporary hardness and then use this water for mashing and sparging on brew
day. 

Do I need to then rack off the boiled but cooled water before I heat it
again for brew day?  If I heat up the water again while it is still sitting
on the sediment, will this re-dissolve it into the water?

Thanks
Steve 



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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:57:05 -0400
From: "Eric R. Lande" <landeservices at juno.com>
Subject: Cherries

Jim,

I've never used cherries, but I have experience with other fruit (ie. 
peaches).  I assume that you are going to cut, crush or otherwise expose
the meat of the cherries.  That assumption being made, yes you will get
more fermentables (a good thing - otherwise it would be too sweet to
drink).  In fact, you will likely find a lot of cherry skins after you
rack and wonder what happened to the meat.  The yeast will actually eat
some, a lot, most or all of the cherry right off the skin.  As for
secondary, if you rack onto the secondary cherries while there is still a
little activity in the primary (maybe one bubble every 5-10 sec.) I would
guess that it will take off again.  I would also consider racking again
after secondary ferment subsides to let the beer clear.


Eric Lande
Doylestown, PA


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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 11:01:44 -0700
From: "Grant W. Knechtel" <GWK at hartcrowser.com>
Subject: Sodium Hexametaphosphate

Mark asks in HBD 3365:

>A friend of mine in the food science dept at UF sent me the following. My
>question would be, what is hexametaphosphate and could it be a viable
>ingredient in beer? If so, it opens up a whole new realm of shitty marketing
>possibilities (but at least AB won't be playing in that arena - not enough
>hops).

>COMBINED EFFECT OF HOP RESINS AND SODIUM 
>HEXAMETAPHOSPHATE AGAINST CERTAIN STRAINS 
>OF ESCHERICHIA COLI
 -snip-

Sodium Hexametaphosphate is a dispersant, also known as 
Metaphosphoric acid, hexadosium salt, or  Sodium 
polymetaphosphate, and once was the main ingredient in Calgon.  
We use it in our geotech lab to disperse clays for grain-size analysis.  
>From the abstract, I'm not sure what concentrations the food chemists 
were using but my guess is it would also interfere with yeast flocculation.  
Probably not what i'd want in my beer, but "one never knows, do one?"  ;-}  
Prost!

 -Grant aka LabRat
Neue Des Moines Hausbrauerei
Des Moines, WA, USA



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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 13:37:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: piatz at cray.com
Subject: lambics and appellation control

In HBD #3365 Jim Liddil wrote:
>
> For lambics I beleive in the designation of appalation controlle
> (sp?).  Sure even Van roy thinks we don't need to use the plambic
> term.  But we are not using sponataneous fermentation.  Few of us have
> oak barrels infected with the right mix of microbes.  What we make is
> in the style but not the real thing.  Just my view.

For those that aren't really into lambic (I know Jim is) take a look at
HORAL v.z.w. or the "Hoge Raad voor Ambachtelijke Lambikbieren" (E:
High Commission for Traditional Lambicstyle Beers - free translation)
for the protection of traditional gueuze and lambik beers.  Their web
page is at http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pvosta/horal.htm

One thing I notice is that Cantillon is not a member of HORAL vzw.  In
late 1997 when I was in Belgium visiting lambic breweries HORAL vzw was
just getting started, I don't remember all the discussion as to why
Cantillon didn't belong back then.

Quoting from one of the links under that page:

	A regulation of the European Community of 21 January 1997
	according to the regulation (EEC) No. 2082/92 on certificates
	of specific character for agricultural products and foodstuffs
	( GREEN EUROPE. No. 1. 1996. Office for Official Publications
	of the EC. Luxembourg. 45 p. Tabl. Graph. Ann.  Free. ). This
	European regulation defines new rules for the the lambic beers,
	the new rules give a better protection of the traditional
	product. A traditionally produced Geuze will now be called
	"Old" Geuze.

	I just give you the names of the traditional products, as they
	will be used once the new legislation is incorporated in the
	national law: For Geuze it will be:

		vieille gueuze, vieille gueuze lambic, and vieux
		lambic(Fr.), Oude Geuze, Oude Kriek Geuze-Lambiek and
		Oude Lambiek(Fl.).

	For fuit beers derived from Lambic: 

		vieille kriek, vieille kriek lambic, vieille framboise
		lambic and vieux fruit lambic(Fr.), Oude Kriek, Oude
		Krieklambiek, Oude Frambozenlambiek and Oude
		Fruitlambiek(Fl.).

	For Faro, the name is written the same in French and
	Dutch/Flemish.

	The beers that do not have "vieille" or "Oude" in their name
	will be the more commercial mass-market products.

>From the above quote it isn't clear to me that there is really a
protected appellation for lambic-style beers but they are sure trying
to get to that point.

If you want details (and photos) on lambics follow the links under the
URL above, some take you to Jim Liddil's work.

- -- 
Steve Piatz             Eagan, MN


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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 14:01:00 -0500
From: "Dan Stedman" <dstedman at mn.rr.com>
Subject: re: pH heck

David Burley writes:

>Now all this stuff about pH for mashes being in the 5.2 to
5.3 range is
>true under certain conditions 1) The mash pH is MEASURED at
the mash
>temperature ( in the 150s F region) with a temperature
compensating pH
>probe. This same mash when cooled to room temperature will
measure
>something like 5.4 to 5.6 ( the pH drops on heating from RT
by 0.2 to 0.3
>units) .  2) your brewing water has calcium levels which
help drop the pH.
>3) You are interested in the maximum saccharification
enzyme activity. You
>may not be.

I always thought that ATC pH meters compensate for the
liquid temperature and
output a measurement for the same liquid at room temperature
(or whatever the standard
is - 68 degrees F?). If that isn't the case, then what is
the temperature compensation compensating for?

For a brewer like myself who uses the nice ColorpHast pH
papers, what should my
mash pH be when I measure it at room temperature? I always
figured 5.3-5.4, if only
because the St. Pats site specifies this underneath their pH
meter section (and kudos
to St. Pats for listing the temperatures along with their pH
recommendations -
no "H E double hockey sticks" for you!). Lots of books never
refer to temperature in relation
to pH, though I have always assumed that they were talking
about room temperature.

Dan in Minnetonka





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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 16:34:00 -0400
From: Bill.X.Wible at QuestDiagnostics.com
Subject: re: oh the horror!




>Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2000 10:09:55 -0700 (MST)
>From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at VMS.ARIZONA.EDU>
>Subject: oh the horror!
>
>The papazian article in the new zymurgy strikes me as a direct take off on
>conrads "heart of darkness" with ass eating fish and ball cutting grass
>thrown in for good measure.  I'd rather watch apocolypse now.  Oh I get it
>Hunter Thompson. :-)
>
>Jim Liddil
>North Haven, CT

I had no idea what you were talking about until my Zymurgy arrived
last night.  It was a pretty frightening article.

More frightening, though, was the condition of this magazine.  What
happened to this issue?  The pages all look like bad black and white
copies, the pictures are all too dark and have no detail.  In terms of print
quality, this has to be the worst I've ever seen.  I thought Ray Daniels
was supposed to be making things better.

On the plus side, though, every article I read was good.  I especially
enjoyed the Summer Heat article.  The material itself seems fine, its
only the print quality that is lacking.




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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 07:27:49 -0400
From: Lonzo McLaughlin <lonkelm at dol.net>
Subject: All-Gran

Perry Merts wrote:  Will switching to all-grain significantly improve the
taste of my 
beer?

I'm not going to start a big discussion here, but rather share my
experience.  I extract brewed for 5 years and just recently switched to
all-grain.  I build a RIMS system since I like
to tinker with equipment.  I've now brewed a total of 5 batches on the new
system.  The quality of my beer has significantly improved.  The beer
tastes much fresher and cleaner then
the beers I brewed with extract.  You may or may not save money, but the
beer quality goes up for sure.

However, on the downside your personal time investment in brewing a batch
of all-grain will be much greater.  This is the only part I dislike.





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Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1904 00:56:56 +0000
From: "A. J." <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Water

Steve Wood asks about what his water report means. First, it means that
you have a supplier who gives out the kind of report I wish they all
would in terms of the data on each item but who has little regard for
brewers in terms of the items reported upon. I'm not sure if an
explanation of what the column headings mean is part of the request but
it can't hurt to review those before launching into what the water is
like. The "mean" is the average of all the readings of which the number
for a particular parameter is in the "count" column. Thus this hardness
report is based on 30 measurements. The sum of the measurements divided
by 30  i.e. 102 is the mean. The median is the value above which the
lowest half (15) of the readings fall and above which the highest half
are found. The "standard deviation" is found by subtracting the mean
from each  reading, squaring the result, summing the squares, dividing
the sum by the count or the count minus 1 (depending on whether the
"sample standard deviation" or an "unbiased estimate of the population
standard deviation" is sought) and taking the square root of the
quotient. It is a measure of the dispersion of the group of readings
about its average value. The "coefficient of variation" is the standard
deviation expressed as a fraction of the mean (15.5/102 = 15.2%). About
60% of samples from a population will be found within one standard
deviation of the mean (86.5 - 117.5 in the case of hardness here). About
94% (these percentages are not exactly right - I'm working from memory,
or what's left of it) are found within 2 standard deviations (71 -133
for hardness) and 99% within 3 standard deviations of the mean. The
minimum and maximum values are self explanatory.

Now on to the items given. Hardness is a measure of the calcium plus
magnesium in the water. Water at this level of hardness is typical of
east coast surface or well water. This water is not particularly hard.
Ideally, a brewer wants to know the separate values for magnesium
hardness and calcium hardness. Hardness is usually expressed in units of
"ppm as calcium carbonate". Divide the value so expressed by 50 to
obtain the number of milliequivalents of hardness per liter. This value
is often compared to the meq/L of alkalinity in order to determine
"residual alkalinity" which is a predictor of mash pH for pale malt
grists. This report does not give data for alkalinty so this is moot
here. If calcium hardness is given separately and converted to meq/L,
multiplication by 20 gives the mg/L of calcium in the water. Similarly
for magnesium hardness one converts to meq/L and then multiplies by
12.15 to get mg/L.

TDS is a measure of the "total dissolved solids". If this is measured by
evaporation of the sample and weighing of the residue it's a meaningful
number. More usually it's mesured by multiplying the electrical
conductivity of the water (much easier to measure than the residue
weight) by a constant and, unless that constant is correct for the
relative proportion of ions in the solution, the number can be
substantially in error. As such the number is useful mostly for realtive
comparisons. No simple brewing calculations consider it.

The sodium numbers represent the number of mg of this ion in a liter of
the water. Sodium is pretty much a "don't care" ion except when present
in quantity larger than in this water. Excess sodium, of course, can
make the water, and a beer brewed from it, taste salty.

pH: much is made of this parameter but by itself it doesn't really tell
you much about the water. Water's with pH's of 7 and up tend to be from
surface sources which are in equilibrium with CO2 in the air or have had
the pH tweaked up by the water works in order to prevent corrosion of
the distribution mains. Waters with pH less than 7 tend to be ground
waters or waters which have had their pH's lowered in order to prevent
scale formation in the distribution system.

Chlorine is a measure of the equivalent amount of free chlorine in the
water even though part or all of the chlorine in a sample drawn from
your tap may be bound to ammonia in the form of chloramine. Full reports
specify free and total chlorine with chloramine chlorine beeing the
difference between the two. Chlorine is a no-no in beer and should be
eliminated by heating/aeration (free only), activated charcoal/KDF
filtering or treatment with metabisulfite (Campden tablets). The maximum
level for this water is about a third of what a typical municipality
does in the spring/summer with regard to chlorine.

To make much of this report you need to know in addition to the data
above:
 -Alkalinity: the buffering capacity of the water i.e. its ability to
resist acidification by malt acids. The battle between water and malt
buffering systems determines mash pH.
 -Sulfate level: this has a profound effect on the way hops are perceived
and tells you which beers the water is best suited to brewing, whether
sulfate should be supplemented with gypsum etc.
 -Chloride (the ion, not the gas as above): This lets you know whether
you have the option of supplementing calcium with calcium chloride as
opposed to calcium sulfate where you need to supplement calcium (high
alkality, low calcium water) but don't want harsh, dry hops.

Go back to your supplier and tell him you are a brewer and that you
wan't values for the "significant seven":  1. pH, 2. Calcium Hardness,
3. Magnesium Hardness, 4. Alkalinityh, 5. Chloride, 6. Sulfate,  7.
Chlorine (free and total).  If the water is typical it will have 50 - 80
ppm alkalinity and 10 - 40 ppm sulfate and 5 -25 chloride (the higher
any one of these is the lower the others must be).




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---