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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re: Hop growing (dw)
  Some kegging tips (gateh)
  Re: Slow starter (Andy Wilcox)
  Re: I have to worry! I can't relax! (Brian Glendenning)
  Stainless pots from RAPIDS -- good prices! good pots? (Chris Shenton)
  British beer foam and kegging (Patrick Stirling)
  Buying grain from local grocers- is it alright? (GOPINATHRTAR)
  Sparge Clarity (Martin A. Lodahl)
  Water Used in Brewing (Brad Carlile ext 2699)
  Wort Chillers in the Summer (Martin A. Lodahl)
  netlib archive of HOMEBREW Digest (a.e.mossberg)
  kegging and time (a.e.mossberg)
  Converting a soda keg for homebrew (a.e.mossberg)
  misc. (Alan Duester)
  Beer Bottle Bombs (revisited) (doug)
  Wort Chillers (Norm Hardy)


Send submissions to homebrew%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Send requests to homebrew-request%hpfcmr at hplabs.hp.com
Archives available from netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu


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Date: 5 Jan 90 09:09:34 EST (Friday)
From: dw <Wegeng.Henr at Xerox.COM>
Subject: Re: Hop growing

I usually reply to these postings via direct email to the sender, but since
there's been some discussion on the digest...

I've been growing hops for a couple years, with pretty good sucess.  Hops
are a lot of fun to grow, but there are a few things that potential hop
growers should know.

1) Hops are propagated from rhizomes, which basically are root cuttings.
To grow hops you need to find a supplier of hop rhizomes (someone else said
that they are collecting a list of suppliers - so I'll refrain from
including my small list here).  You plant the rhizomes in the spring (using
whatever organic/chemical methods you prefer) and watch them grow.  Note
that hops are not a free standing vine, and need some sort of trellis
system.  Keep this in mind when planting different varieties, for the vines
may become mixed on the trellis (making it difficult to seperate your saaz
hops from your brewers gold.  Hop flowers are harvested in the fall.  Most
references that I've seen indicate that you won't get much production from
the plants the first year, and my experience agrees with this.

2) After being harvested, hops need to be dried.  I use a food dryer,
though others have had sucess with air drying.

3) I don't know of a way for homebrewers to measure the alpha acid content
of hops (either store bought or homegrown) so you'll have to experiment
with a couple batches of beer.

I've been thinking about writing a pamplet on hop growing, which I'd then
sell to interested people for a couple bucks (to cover postage, copying,
etc).  If anyone thinks that they would be interested please let me know
via private correspondence.

/Don
wegeng at arisia.xerox.com   or   hplabs!arisia!wegeng

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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 90 09:58:07 EST
From: gateh%CONNCOLL.BITNET at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU
Subject: Some kegging tips

I used to build and distribute home CO2 systems (for commercial beer) and
have been using my own for about 5 years - here are some tips I've learned
about dispensing beer from such a system.

> Now say I were to get a c02 kegging system. If I tapped a keg and had
> a few beers tonite, how long would I have to use up the rest of the beer?
> If I don't drink any more for a week, how will it taste? How about a few
> weeks? Will the c02 affect the flavor, or the aroma of the beer?
>
> What about sediment? If my bottles have sediment in them, won't the
> keg have some too? How do you keep this from being kicked up?

I've had kegs that were perfectly good 5 or 6 weeks after being tapped, and
in some cases actually thought the beer tasted _better_ at the end of the
keg than at the beginning.  As for CO2 affecting the taste of homebrew, I
don't know, but I would guess that it wouldn't be a problem.  As for sediment,
yes there will be some of course, but the kegs I've seen all run a pipe from
the top down the center of the keg to just off the bottom - perfect for
homebrewers (I don't think the soda kegs work this way).  I would let the
keg sit for a while before tapping to let the sediment settle.  One problem
with using beer kegs is that the sizes are not convenient (7.8 and 15.6 gal.).

I was told by the distributor I worked for that 12.5 psi is the proper
amount of pressure for a keg.  My experience is that this is about right,
although if you want to play with the pressure, go down, not up.

Other tips:

 - never, never, EVER roll a keg.  Always carry or use a handtruck.  Be as
  gentle as possible - it will pay off.

 - when pouring, always open the tap *all* the way.  Trying to slow the flow
  of beer by opening the tap just a little will guarantee foam.  If foam is
  a problem, change the pressure, clean the lines, clean the tap, but don't
  play with the tap itself.  This was one of the most common problems I
  had with the folks I put systems in for.

 - Don't put your CO2 tank in the fridge.  The liquid CO2 may freeze and that
  don't help nuthin.  I either drill a hole in the fridge, or run the line
  out the side of the door.  Currently I run both beer and CO2 out the door.

 - Hardcores say the system needs to be cleaned once a week.  As long as the
  system is used regularly, I never had to clean more than a couple times
  a year.  Cleaning never hurt, though.

When purchasing a system, make sure that there is a way to release pressure
directly from the keg.  Most systems should have this, however I have seen
two-prong tap heads without a release value, and boy is this a pain.  If you
can't blow all the pressure off the keg and start over again, you'll have a
lot of difficulty dealing with foam problems.

Hope this is of some use.  I've learned a lot from recent digests about
kegging homebrew, and am very excited to give it a shot.  My own beer coming
from my tap will be a very good thing indeed.  Cheers!  - Gregg

Gregg TeHennepe                        | Minicomputer Specialist
gateh at conncoll                         | Connecticut College, New London, CT

"...I don't know, maybe it's Utah."  - H.I. McDonaugh

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Date: Fri, 05 Jan 90 10:19:34 EST
From: Andy Wilcox <andy at mosquito.cis.ufl.edu>
Subject: Re: Slow starter


Martin A. Lodahl <pbmoss!mal at hplabs.HP.COM> writes:

  Dead?  I doubt it.  What kind of yeast?  How warm is the room?  
  I had Doric behave exactly as you describe, and still (eventually)
  produce good beer.  If there WEREN'T a light layer of foam on top,
  I'd worry.

It's interesting that Doric would go slow for you, yet so fast for
me!  I frequently have 3-4 day fermentations in my glass carbouy
using doric yeast.  This is undoubtably a temperature effect, as
my kitchen (here in florida) is usually warm, bordering on hot in
the summer (90+)...  Which brings me to a question, do *I* need a 
wort chiller?  I've not had any bad batches, but would they be better
if kept cooler?

Not worrying,

Andy Wilcox
(andy at ufl.edu)

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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 90 10:37:51 EST
From: Brian Glendenning <brian at radio.astro.utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: I have to worry! I can't relax!


I should have trusted the platitude. Either there is a leak in my
primary fermentor (although when I press on lid the level on the
airlock changes) or fermentation passed in a quick burst when I was
sleeping.

In any event, when I took a gravity reading I discovered that it had
dropped a bit more than 20 points in 4 days. So it looks like we've
made beer.

Thanks to all the helpful respondents for holding my hand!

Brian
- --
	  Brian Glendenning - Radio astronomy, University of Toronto
brian at radio.astro.utoronto.ca uunet!utai!radio!brian  glendenn at utorphys.bitnet

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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 90 10:14:37 est
From: Chris Shenton <chris at asylum.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Stainless pots from RAPIDS -- good prices! good pots?

A while ago, John Polstra (jdp at polstra.UUCP) wrote about good prices for
stainless pots from Rapids (Wholesale Bar & Restaurant Equipment,
800-553-7906). I just got their catalog, and it looks like a winner. Most
interestingly, a 40 Qt for $80 (List $160); matching lid, $21.25.

They're described as ``Heavy gauge stainless steel.'' Anyone have any
experience with them? I may break down and order one next week, and if I
do, will report on it in these pages.

One potential caveat: they do call themselves *Wholesale* and at the end of
the catalog is a disclaimer:

  WHO CAN BUY:
    Possession of this catalog should not be construed as an offer to sell.

WTF??? 
_______________________________________________________________________________
Internet:  chris at asylum.gsfc.nasa.gov (128.183.10.155)      NASA/GSFC: Code 735
UUCP:      ...!uunet!asylum.gsfc.nasa.gov!chris             Greenbelt, MD 20771
SPAN:      PITCH::CHRIS                                            301-286-6093

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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 90 09:03:42 PST
From: pms at Sun.COM (Patrick Stirling)
Subject: British beer foam and kegging

Having just returned from a vacation in England, I can report on the
foaminess of the beer there. Basically, "real" beer in England isn't
pressurized at all. It's kegged in wooden or aluminium barrels and
delivered to the pub. It's then served either by a hand vacuum pump or
gravity feed through a tap in the keg. The only foam is that caused by
the splashing at the beer flows into the glass, and has usually
subsided by the time you get the glass to your mouth. Note that of
course this implies that the beer is (almost) still (i.e. not
carbonated). Naturally there are many beers (and all lagers and
Guinness) that are served using the familiar CO2 pumps; however you can
always tell the real stuff by the large vacuum pump handle and the
groans of the barperson as they pump your glassful!

On to kegging. There's a pharmacy chain in Britain by the name of
"Boots", that sells a large range to homebrew supplies. While in one
last week, I saw a 5gal plastic pressure barrel (for 16 UK pounds),
which can be pressurized by sparklets CO2 capsules or by SodaStream CO2
cartridges. The full setup would be around 30 pounds I think, or about
$50. Has anyone seen anything like this here? Does SodaStream exists in
the USA?  Alternatively, does anyone know of a supplier of RotoKegs
here? Actually the real difficulty is finding the CO2 cartridges -
any ideas?

patrick

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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 90 08:02 MST
From: GOPINATHRTAR at CHE.UTAH.EDU
Subject: Buying grain from local grocers- is it alright?

We just started brewing a month ago and a very glad that we started it.
The question I have is that is can we buy grain from local groceries 
instead from the standard sources ( local brewing stores, mail order etc.)
Thanx
gopinathrtar at chemical.utah.edu

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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 90 8:34:50 PST
From: Martin A. Lodahl <pbmoss!mal at hplabs.HP.COM>
Subject: Sparge Clarity

[ Here's the text that was supposed to go in the empty posting I
sent to HBD 336.  Sorry! --MAL ]

In HOMEBREW Digest #335, Douglas J Roberts observed:
"I don't recycle sparge water. My experience has been that the hot
break removes all protiens quite nicely. My mashed beers all clarify
beautifully with just a straight sparge."

I never thought of that angle.  My assumption has always been that
it's the draff, the small grain fragments, that are filtered out by
recycling the sparge until a filter bed is established.  This cloudy
stuff is mostly husk, and I would imagine that if too much of it
makes it into the boil, it could impart some astringency.

I've also noticed that shortly before the sparge begins to run
clear, the flow rate (usually) slows considerably, which I've taken
as an indication of more complete extraction through a "tighter"
grain bed, increasing the grain/water contact.  Hooey, perhaps?

= Martin A. Lodahl    Pac*Bell Minicomputer Operations Support Staff =
= pacbell!pbmoss!mal  -or-  mal at pbmoss.Pacbell.COM      916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =


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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 90 10:22:41 PST
From: Brad Carlile ext 2699 <hplabs!fpssun!!bradc>
Subject: Water Used in Brewing


Hello, I am interested in finding out the mineral content of water at
the various brewing "Capitals" of the world.  So far my sources include:

1) "The Complete Joy of Home Brewing" C. Papazian
2) "Brewing Lager Beer"  G. Noonan
3) "Malting and Brewing Science"  J. Hough et. al.
4) Zymurgy - All grain Issue 1985
5) Zymurgy - Winter 1989
6) David Line's Book (name escapes me now)

So I was wondering if anyone had any additional info on water content.
For instance, access to a good Tech Library (not necessarily brewtech stuff) 
with books that lists the water content of various cities water.  
I am looking for the following info:

CITY 
 1) source of info - (if there are several sources send info on all)
 2) year of water test
 3) Perm Hardness
 4) Temp Hardness
 5) CO3- Hardness
 6) Total Solids
 7) Ca++
 8) Mg+
 9) Na+
10) K+
11) HCO3-
12) SO4-
13) Cl-
14) NO3-

Alternatively, I am also interested in the observed contest of finished 
beer (mineral content changes dramatically throughout the brewing process).
Another interesting bit of infor would be starting water and amounts of 
additives in recipes.

Please EMAIL me any findings, I'll post a summary if there is interest.

Thanks,
Brad Carlile

P.S. If you interested in your own water, call your local water board,
its most likely free.

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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 90 8:47:21 PST
From: Martin A. Lodahl <pbmoss!mal at hplabs.HP.COM>
Subject: Wort Chillers in the Summer

In HOMEBREW Digest #336, Chris Shenton asks a question dear to my
own heart:

"OK, so I think I'm convinced to build a Wort Chiller -- immersion cuz I'm
paranoid about cleanliness. But how well can it work during the summer when
my tap water is a good 80 degrees F?"

I don't have quite this problem, but I do have an "iffy" well, and
seeing all that water go down the drain is more than I can stand.  A
possible answer to both problems:  an icewater bath, recirculated
through the chiller.  That implies a pump, and therefore a possible
problem.  Every winemaking supplies shop has pumps, but they're
expensive!  Has anyone found a good, cheap, preferably
self-contained electric pump?  The possibilities I've considered
include the scavenge pump from a washing machine and the water pump
from an evaporative cooler, but these usually require a separate
motor & belt, which I'd like to avoid.  Suggestions?

= Martin A. Lodahl    Pac*Bell Minicomputer Operations Support Staff =
= pacbell!pbmoss!mal  -or-  mal at pbmoss.Pacbell.COM      916.972.4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =


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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 90 16:44:32 EST
From: aem at mthvax.cs.miami.edu (a.e.mossberg)
Subject: netlib archive of HOMEBREW Digest


The current month's issues of HOMBREW Digest are now also available
from the netlib server netlib at mthvax.cs.miami.edu

To get one of the current month's issues, send a request such as

	send 335 from homebrew-new


to the netlib address. Issues should be available minutes after they
arrive here.

To get information on the archives, send the request

	send index from homebrew

to the netlib address.

aem

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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 90 16:51:05 EST
From: aem at mthvax.cs.miami.edu (a.e.mossberg)
Subject: kegging and time

In HOMEBREW Digest #335 RobertN. asks:

>As the subject of kegging has been floating around the net lately,
>I was wondering how long kegged beer will stay fresh?

As long as bottled homebrew.

>Now say I were to get a c02 kegging system. If I tapped a keg and had
>a few beers tonite, how long would I have to use up the rest of the beer?

Months at least.

>If I don't drink any more for a week, how will it taste? How about a few
>weeks? Will the c02 affect the flavor, or the aroma of the beer?

It will continue to age in the keg, as it would in the bottle, but at
a slightly slower rate. (Like wine in splits as opposed to magnums).

CO2 is what the little yeasties are producing (CO2 out one end, and
alcohol out the other -- don't ask me which end produces what!).

>What about sediment? If my bottles have sediment in them, won't the 
>keg have some too? How do you keep this from being kicked up?

Yes, there will be sediment. That's the purpose of converting the kegs
with the float system. That way the beer is picked up from slightly
below the top of the beer, rather than from the bottom as with an
unconverted soda keg.

aem

- --
a.e.mossberg / aem at mthvax.cs.miami.edu / aem at umiami.BITNET / Pahayokee Bioregion
Let me further make it plain to the assassins in Beirut 
and their accomplices, wherever they may be, that America 
will never make concessions to terrorists.  		- Ronald Reagan

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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 90 17:00:29 EST
From: aem at mthvax.cs.miami.edu (a.e.mossberg)
Subject: Converting a soda keg for homebrew


The conversion consists of removing the pickup tube going to the
bottom of the keg, cutting it off several inches below the top,
reinstalling it in the keg, and attaching a plastic tube with a
float mechanism to keep the end of the flexible tube slightly
below the surface of the beer. 

A kit consisting of all the parts you need for the float assembly
is available from Wine and Brew By You. I use it in all my kegs
(8 or 9) and have not had any problems with the system. Wine and
Brew By You - 5760 Bird Rd, Miami 33155 (305) 666-5757

aem


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Date: Fri, 5 Jan 90 19:45:33 EST
From: capnal at aqua.whoi.edu (Alan Duester)
Subject: misc.

People are often talking about old beer being not quite as good as
fresh. I had to let you all know about an event this past weekend.

I went to a friend's for a New Year's party, and was offered a bottle of
Guiness - that was 15 or 16 years old! It had been under the kitchen
sink since he moved in! It wasn't as bad as I expected. Soured, but
still having the Guiness flavor. No photo-oxidation I could detect.
Also, no unpleasant physical afteraffects.

The most annoying thing was the gloppy chunks that started pouring out
as I neared the end of the bottle. An interesting experience, but not
one I would recommend for newcomers! I'll try the other bottle next
year....

I've been using a 16 qt. thin stainless pot by Metro that I got at
Bradlees for $16. Unfortunately, it has a tendency to scorch a bit if
one is not careful. Also, the first one I had developed a corrosion hole
and numerous pits in the bottom (and emptied 2 qts. of brew into my
stove in the process). I have a passing familiarity with corrosion
problems, as designing instrumentation for oceanography is my job. I
didn't expose it to conditions that should have caused problems in what
*I* consider to be "stainless" steel. It seems to be a poor alloy. Metro
replaced the pot immediately, with no questions, after I had had it 9
months, so I can't complain.

Regarding the blowoff/blowup discussions - I've always strained the hops
out as I pour into the primary carboy. Maybe that's why some folks have
had problems with clogging?

========================================================================
Al Duester, Ocean Engineer, MS S201   #  SPAN: 6308::capnal 
Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution  #  INTERNET: capnal at aqua.whoi.edu
Woods Hole, MA  02543                 #  GEnie:  A.DUESTER
(508) 548-1400 x2474 
(508) 457-2000 auto-receptionist for touch tone phones
========================================================================
*oh, I used pelletized hops....

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Date: Sat, 6 Jan 90 05:37:29 EST
From: hisata!doug at gatech.edu
Subject: Beer Bottle Bombs (revisited)


There's been some discussion of the sturdiness of bottles.  Here's
my 2/100ths of a $'s worth.  I prefer bottles with a gently sloping
next--NOT like longnecks--because they're easier to pour and don't
"glug" so as to stir up sediment.  I use ANYTHING close to this shape:
 Guiness, Harp, Heineken Dark (brown bottles), IBC root beer, etc.  In 16
batches x ~50 bottles = 800 bottles, I've only had two break when being 
capped.  No glass grenades yet, and I've had some real gushers!  Some
of my bottles have been reused many times.  The IBC root beer bottles and
several others are "throwaways," though I've never had a problem except
as noted above.  

And speaking of gushers, I had some beer that I'd stored under the house
to age a couple of months.  This whole batch was contaminated and gushed
mightily when opened.  I thought I'd save a couple to show my folks at 
Christmas.  I brought them up to the kitchen and left them on the counter.
After they warmed, I notice they were producing gentle bubbles in the capped
bottles!  They were dumped immediately.  A friend who lived in Ireland told
me of a homebrew competition there.  One brewer brought in a large bottle
exhibiting the same symptoms.  A judge stopped the competition until the
bottle was removed from the building--for the safety of all present!

Doug


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Date: Sat, 6 Jan 90 18:44:27 PST
From: polstra!norm at hplabs.HP.COM (Norm Hardy)
Subject: Wort Chillers

The question was:  "How do I use an immersion chiller in the summer when the
tap water is 80f?"  Here is an idea:

Construct 2 immersion chillers with copper tubing.  Have the water flow through
the first as it sits in a water bath filled with ice water.  Then the water
moves on to your wort where the second chiller sits.  Keep an eye on the ice
water and add more ice as needed to keep it very cold.

Hey, it's extra expense to have two chillers, but it will work for you, and if
you do it yourself you'll save bucks over buying a counterflow chiller.

Norm, in Seattle

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #337, 01/08/90
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