---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Buble Counter ("Sandy Macmillan")
  re: phenolic flavors ("Stephen Alexander")
  Let's Hop on Regan ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Aussies!?! (David Sweeney)
  Bavarian Helles (Chuck Mryglot)
  also sprach zarathustra (Jim Liddil)
  pH (Marc Sedam)
  More on souring wits (Jim Layton)
  Re: Siphoning easily & safely (Spencer W Thomas)
  Contamination by Lambics ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  New Wyeast 1332 NW ale ("Strom C. Thacker")
  re: water analysis ("Brian Lundeen")
  Re: Stroh's Signature (Anthony and Mary Ann Tantillo)
  Rimmers (Dan Listermann)


* 2000 AHA NHC pics and stories at http://hbd.org/miy2k
* JULY IS AMERICAN BEER MONTH! Take the American Beer
* Pledge of Allegiance! Support your local brewery...
* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 08:00:43 +0300
From: "Sandy Macmillan" <scotsman at kems.net>
Subject: Buble Counter

There was a thread some time ago suggesting ways to log a fermentation,
including a bubble counter.
I was dismantling a mouse, electronic type!, and note that this contains
light emitting diode and receiver. Any genius out there can tell me how to
modify this mouse bit to count bubble at the fermentation lock?

Sandy Macmillan
Brewing in a dry place



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Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 04:59:15 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: phenolic flavors

Dan Lyga asks ...

>I brewed a Kolsch ... I noticed a "strange" aroma from this
>... medicinal - the
>same flavoring is there now to a lesser degree. ...
>so I was leaning toward the wild yeast theory.

>I'm not sure if the beer I've created is a close interpretation.

>Would anyone else describe the Duvel
>and Franziskaner beers as having a phenolic flavor/taste?

>Are certain yeast strains expected to produce phenolic flavors?

>Does a high(er) percentage of wheat malt contribute to phenolic flavoring
in
>a beer?

There are several compounds you might call medicinal, but if
it's comparable to the Franziskaner you are most likely tasting
spicy-clovey 4-vinyl-guauicol (4VG).  Another likely source are
chlorophenolic compounds which are very medicinal and are present in
some water supplies at nasty tasting concentrations.

Malt, wheat and many grains contain a very simple phenolic compound
called ferulic acid.  One paper from Guinness shows that mash temperatures
around 43C/109F releases more of the ferulic acid into the mash.  Wheat
generally has much higher ferulic levels than does barley.  The ferulic
itself is not particularly flavorful.

In the boil a small percentage of ferulic is converted into the much more
flavor active 4VG, maybe enough to taste in some cases.  Weizen
yeasts and according to another study most wild yeasts are very effective
at converting ferulic to 4VG and will give a potent clovey-spicy flavor. I
wish that Wyeast and others would label which yeasts are 4VG producers.
Perhaps compiling this info would be a good HBD project ?

Some books describe 4VG as smoky or medicinal tho' I personally
don't get 'smoky at beer concentrations. I would prefer to call this
flavor spicy/clovey, since the flavor term 'phenolic' often means
astringent and/or coarsely bitter (flavors caused by larger often
polymeric and oxidized phenolic compounds), like black tea.

In my experience Kolsch should not have a 4VG flavor.
Kunze suggests a Kolsch malt bill of 95%pale malt and 5% Cara-Hell
 -OR 85% pale and 15% Vienna.  Tho later comments suggest up to 20%
wheat malt.  He describes the beer as tart, bitter and pale, OG of
11-11.6P(1.044-1.046), 7-11EBC, and 16-35IBU, and openly refers
to cool fermenting and  lagering this top-fermented beer.

fwiw,
 -S








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Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 21:04:14 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Let's Hop on Regan

Hop on Regan and beat him about the ears. How dare he make folly of the
AQIS.

Sorry, but I have to lend support to Graham Sanders in his defence of Regan.
More importantly, I'd like to state that Regan's post in no way called for
the vicious and outrageous verbal attack unleashed upon him by the righteous
Mr Robey.

Firstly a few facts :
Regan runs (he doesn't own) a serious homebrew shop.
He abides by the law.
He is an intelligent person whose talents are largely wasted looking after
the likes of homebrewers - but he excels.
He comments that he knows of people who have imported small quantities of
hops.

And Mr Darren Robey sticks a gun down his throat!!!

Shame on you Mr Robey, not for your concerns about Australian agriculture,
but for your misguided criticism of Regan. Perhaps though, before responding
to me, you might like to answer some of Mr Sanders' queries on the
importation of hop flowers into this country by the large breweries.
You might like to answer lots of things.
But I suspect you can't.
No more than I can.

Bureaucracy in this country has me so appalled that I would have a long time
ago moved to America.
But alas.
I was to learn that Eric Fouch lived over there.

Phil.



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Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 08:19:43 -0500 
From: David Sweeney <David at studentlife.tamu.edu>
Subject: Aussies!?!

David wrote:
Aussies do carry on, don't they?

Pat wrote:
Yeah! You'd think they'd learn the delicate self-control displayed by Aggies
when speaking of Longhorns.

Touche!

David Sweeney
Texas A&M University
david at studentlife.tamu.edu



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Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 09:42:11 -0400
From: Chuck Mryglot <cmryglot at cisco.com>
Subject: Bavarian Helles

I've just read Bavarian Helles and have a question or 2 for
discussion....maybe the author participates in this forum and can jump
in.

Looking at the hopping schedule it advises to add flavor hops at
shutdown and to add aroma hops 10 - 15 minutes after shutdown.
Shutdown was not defined, but I assume it means that this is the point
in time that the heat is turned off.

I have never read advice such as this before.   For me, 10 - 15 minutes
after shutdown is during the chilling phase and the wort is maybe 150
degrees F at this point.    Is it not a bad idea to add hops to
unfermented wort at such a low temperature for fear of contamination?

The book credits brewers from Spaten with a technical review.     Is
this a new technique?

Prosit

ChuckM



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Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 06:56:03 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at VMS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: also sprach zarathustra


> ------------------------------
> 
> Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 16:38:09 +0930
> From: LyndonZimmermann <lyndonz at senet.com.au>
> Subject: Contamination by Lambics
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> I'm interested in making a Lambic and have been warned about the possibility
> of contamination into other brews of the yeast. I make beer, wine and mead,
> and venturing into yoghurt and cheese.  How serious is this issue?  What
> steps should I take to prevent cross contamination and sanitise brewgear
> used?  Can the infection spread through bottle trub?
> 
> Lyndon Z

The last line could lead me into a nice discussion of spreading diseases
but I'll show self restraint.  Again this whole things is a momily (TM
schmidling inc.) One simply needs to clean things well and then sanitize.
You can not sanitize a unclean surface, but you can autoclave feces.
Sterile but not clean.  So make sure you clean everything well and then
sanitize well.  I'd be more worried about the amount of microorganisms
from cheese and yogurt taking over the whole house.  This is only as
serious an issue as you want it to be.   How concerned are you about off
flavors? also be aware that the pathogenic microorganisms in your kitchen
are of a much higher level than anywhere else.  See the palmer/liddil
article on celaning and sanitization at the brewery.  also check the
lambic digest archives for further discussion.

I can't wait for steve Alexander to jump on the wheat/phenolic issue. :-)

Jim Liddil
North Haven, CT USA



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Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 10:01:47 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: pH

Lynne brought out a good point about mash pH and the
delicate nature of the probes in this environment.  I used
to have (well still have a nonfunctioning version of) a
Piccolo Plus pH meter.  Thing of beauty.  Accuracy to 0.02
units...small, useful, had ATC.  I got to use the thing
*about* 5 times before the probe fried.  I didn't use the
probe out towards boiling, but I did frequently measure the
pH in the alpha amylase range (162F).  Had I known that the
probe was frail at higher temps (not easily determined from
the product lit) I would have only used it to get the pH at
the beta-rest (142-ish) and been done.  Replacing the probe
seems like a luxury right now.

On to Dave Burley's comment about measuring pH.  I hadn't
considered not sticking the probe in the mash before.  I'm
not dead, but it doesn't mean that he's not correct.  But I
would say that he's a bit off as far as how to measure the
pH.  If you have an ATC meter, I say take the sample, stick
the probe in there, and go.  No need to cool the thing
down...wastes valuable time and there's no advantage to
having an ATC meter if you cool the sample below, say, 140F
(so I'm consistent).

pH of enzyme systems are supposed to be the pH at the time
of  conversion.  So when it says the mash should be pH 5.2
 -5.3, it means exactly that.  Not the cooled sample should
be in that range, but the MASH should be in that range.
It's not implicit.  I spent a few moons using alpha and beta
amylase in a commercial setting.  We *always* adjusted the
pH of the system at the reaction temperature and not at room
temps.  Since the beta-amylase was derived from barley (a
word quite close to "Burley" by the by) and we were
converting starch, it's a relevant comparison.

Now, when you measure standards or calibrate the pH meter it
should be at STP If you don't have an appropriate probe then
you'll have to whip out the CRC Handbook or hit the web to
determine the pH/temperature conversion factor.

Cheerios!
Marc



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Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 09:45:19 -0500
From: Jim Layton <a0456830 at rtxmail1.rsc.raytheon.com>
Subject: More on souring wits

Graham Sanders wrote:

>I can understand using lactobacillus in my wort, but I,m reluctant 
>as i will not have any control over the final acidicity.

There are a couple of ways to beat that problem. First, pasteurization
could be used to kill off the bacteria in the finished beer, followed by
force carbonation or adding fresh yeast for bottle carbonation. This, I
understand, is how one commercial wit brewer does it. I've never tried
it myself. Second (this one I have used with good results), add the
bacteria culture at packaging time. Let the beer carbonate and age at
room temperature. Sample it periodically. When you think the acidity is
perfect, store the bottles or keg in the fridge. Cold temperature will,
for all practical purposes, halt further activity by L. delbrukii.

My skepticism regarding sour mashing comes not from my brewing
experience but from fishing. One way to attract catfish and concentrate
them in your favorite fishing hole is to throw a gallon or so of soured
grain into the water. This soured grain is prepared by adding water to
grain (wheat, corn, sorghum, whatever), of course, then letting nature
take her course for a few days. The resulting product has an absolutely
revolting odor but the catfish go for it. Pitch the mess in and rinse
the bucket, you don't want it stinking up the place all day! Then bait
your hook and wait for the action to begin. If you picked a good spot,
you'll be hauling a mess of catfish home within the hour.

A pure culture of L. delbrukii in a malt based starter smells tart but
clean. A bucket of soured grain is a far, far different experience. 

Give the sour mashing a try, Graham, and be sure to report back how it
turns out. I may try it if it works for you. If not, I'll stick with
what has worked for me in the past.

Jim Layton
Howe, TX


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Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 10:53:26 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Siphoning easily & safely 

>>>>> "Keith" == Keith Christian <kchris1 at lausd.k12.ca.us> writes:


    Keith> 2. Place receiving end of the cane in carboy with the
    Keith> carboy cap.  It has 2 wholes.  The racking cane is going
    Keith> through one whole and simply hook up some 3/8 tubing on the
    Keith> other.  Suck on the tube and you get a siphon started
    Keith> without ever blowing into the vessel holding the beer.

Stupid brewer trick -- DO NOT TRY THIS --

I purged my receiving vessel (carboy or keg, I forget which) with CO2,
then decided to start the siphon by sucking on it, as Keith describes.

A lung full of CO2 is not a pleasant sensation!

=Spencer


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Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 11:17:25 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Contamination by Lambics

Lyndon Zimmermann has a common concern regarding contamination by Lambics:

>I'm interested in making a Lambic and have been warned about the
possibility
>of contamination into other brews of the yeast. I make beer, wine and mead,
>and venturing into yoghurt and cheese.  How serious is this issue?  What
>steps should I take to prevent cross contamination and sanitise brewgear
>used?  Can the infection spread through bottle trub?

The short of it is: clean everything well and sanitize.

Many people fear that brewing lambics will contaminate their "house flora".
My feelings are that if your brewing so greatly effects your house flora, or
vice versa, you need to review your brewing and sanitation processes.  I've
only brewed one lambic so far.  In fact, this year-old brew is *STILL*
fermenting.  But over the course of the past year I can't say it has caused
a single infection in another brew.  I have had it in the same room with my
other brews before moving it to an out of the way spot and I've also lifted
the lid on it a few times (I know I shouldn't, but I'm too curious!)

Based on my experience with similar concerns found in various manufacturing
industries, it is my belief that cross-contamination is a result of poor
cleaning and sanitation of items which may be interchanged between brews
rather than through the bubbler and into the air.  Poorly cleaned
fermentation locks, rubber stoppers, hoses, racking canes and even cleaning
and test equipment are all more likely sources of infection.

Items such as fermenters and bottles should be cold-soaked in tap water over
night to loosen organic deposits and then scrubbed with a strong detergent
(such as TSP or dishwasher detergent) so that they are visibly clean.
Spigots should be disassembled and thoroughly scrubbed because these can be
good hiding spots for lambic bugs.  Jet washers are great for scrubbing
those bottles. This all should then be followed by a second soaking in a
strong sanitizer for a few hours.  I prefer chlorine bleach at a rate of 1
oz/gallon overnight.  Not much can live through that!

Even with all this cleaning and sanitizing going on, I still keep equipment
dedicated to lambics.  This is mainly because of the long fermentation
periods, but I still worry about a slip up in cleaning.  It's better to be
safe than sorry.

Trub?  You shouldn't have any trub in the bottom of your finished bottles,
but you should have a fine layer of yeast there if you bottle conditioned.
That will certainly cross-contaminate if not properly washed and sanitized.

As for the cheese and yoghurt process, I have no clue.  But if they involve
leaving the cultures open to the air, I would keep the lambic in another
room and fill the fermentation lock with cheap vodka or 70% ethanol anyway.
You probably don't use the same equipment anyway.

A few links to read up on:

http://www.stanford.edu/~jeremybb/lambic/sanitation.html
http://www.stanford.edu/~jeremybb/lambic/oldfaq.txt
http://hbd.org/brewery/library/LmbicJL0696.html#Sanit


Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen Pannicke
http://www.pannicke.net
"He was a wise man who invented beer" - Plato


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Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 11:58:28 -0400
From: "Strom C. Thacker" <sthacker at bu.edu>
Subject: New Wyeast 1332 NW ale

Has anyone out there tried Wyeast Northwest Ale yeast (#1332)?  I 
think it's relatively new -- there doesn't seem to be anything in the 
archives on it.  The description for it is:

1332 Northwest Ale yeast
One of the classic ale strains from the Northwest U.S. Breweries. 
Produces a malty and mildly fruity ale with good depth and 
complexity. Flocculation - high; apparent attenuation 67-71%. (65-75o 
F)

Anyone know its origin?  Is it the same as NCYC 1332?

I'm preparing to brew an American style amber ale, and am deciding 
between this strain and the American Ale II (#1272) strain.  Any 
thoughts or recommendations?

Thanks,

Strom
Newton, MA


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Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 15:56:16 -0500
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: re: water analysis

Braam Greyling ventured forth from his new town into the wilds of the
Australian Taunting Digest (sorry, Pat, I meant HBD), and spake:


> Hi,
>
> Since I have moved to a new town, I need some help in analising
> our water profile.
>
(chemistry details and references to Mrs Frans deleted)
>

I don't know if this will answer all your questions, but I found Ken
Schwartz's site at http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer/ to be very useful in
helping me understand water concepts. His BreWater program is my personal
choice for calculating additions to my water because of its formulation
wizard.

Brian



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Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 18:39:22 +0000
From: Anthony and Mary Ann Tantillo <amtantillo at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Stroh's Signature

In Homebrew Digest #3365 (June 30, 2000), Bob Hall
<nap_aca_bh at nwoca.org> asks:
>Can anyone out there give a
>little background on Signature, history, clone, etc.
Jeff Renner wrote:
> "AS I recall, it was a nice beer but still too tame for my tastes. 
> Maltier and richer than a standard American lager,
> with nice flavoring hops, but nothing to write home about..."

>From what I remember about Peter's talk, Signature still used corn as 
an adjunct. The real surprise was that replacing part of the six row
barley with two row did not change the taste according to Stroh's 
tastetesters. 

> I can't remember exactly how Peter used the simile of "kissing your 
> sister" that Fred related, but I think it may have been more 
> regarding light beers than beers other than Stroh's.  Someone else 
> who was there may remember better.

My recollection too is that the "kissing your sister" quote referred to
light beers.He also made the quote "..we turn water into beer not beer
into water.."Does anyone remember exactly what context this quote was
made? It had something to do with the light beer debate, I believe.

>He certainly was an entertaining speaker, especially for those of 
> us interested in the history of beer.

Agreed.  Someone should write a book similar to "Glory of Their Times",
but instead of old baseball players, old regional brewers would recount
their
experiences.

Tony Tantillo

amtantillo at earthlink.net

Jeff


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Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 21:48:50 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Rimmers

I need some info from you rimmers ( not Arnold J.).  What watt per sq inch
ratio do you use?  What is your minimum flow rate and how often does the
element need to be cleaned?  Anyother advice regarding the use of
electrical heating elements would be appreciated.

Dan Listermann   72723.1707 at compuserve.com          dan at listermann.com


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