---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  GBBF (Brad McMahon)
  Adelaide Clubs (Brad McMahon)
  I'm Back / pH / Kunze / thermodynamics question ("Louis K. Bonham")
  Diabetics and Beer (Ant Hayes)
  Re: Bavarian helles (Epic8383)
  Re: Stroh's Signature (reformatted) (Anthony and Mary Ann Tantillo)
  RE: Rimmers ("Neitzke, Arnold")
  Helles Boil Schedule ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Re: Sour mashing (KMacneal)
  Great Taste of the Midwest (Steven Ensley)
  Acid Wit (Road Frog)
  Calomel (AJ)
  Wyeast 1332 - Yes! ("George, Marshall E.")
  Buckeye is Back (Bob Hall)
  pH measurements,bubble counter (Dave Burley)
  pH ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Re: Bavarian Helles (Jeff Renner)
  To the Publisher of Brewers Publications (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Big Beer/Small Beer Parti-gyle brewing (Spencer W Thomas)
  Re: Bubble Counter (stencil)
  electrodes/pH papers/wit pH/ acid malt/ ("Lynne O'Connor")


* 2000 AHA NHC pics and stories at http://hbd.org/miy2k
* JULY IS AMERICAN BEER MONTH! Take the American Beer
* Pledge of Allegiance! Support your local brewery...
* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 14:50:19 +0930
From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: GBBF


Who here from the HBD will be attending the Great British Beer Festival?
Thomas Hamann and myself will be there from Tuesday 1st August
to Thursday the 3rd. We have volunteered our time to work there so you
should be able to track us down. We will be wearing tags with HBD on
them as well (kinda like a secret society innit?) so you can spot us.
That is, if the khakhi safari/brew suits, slouch hats with corks, 12"
 combat knife in the crocodile belt and cries of "Whacko-the-diddly-o 
didgeridoo wombat, by crikey!" doesn't give it away. Which it wouldn't.
We will also be at the Wednesday 12:30pm Championship Beer of Britain
Tasting with Roger Protz and the Thursday 6:30pm Czech Beer Tasting with
Michael Jackson if you can't find us amongst the general masses.

Drop me and e-mail and see if we can't find a place to meet up!

Cheers mate!

Brad McMahon
Aldgate, South Australia


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Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 14:51:13 +0930
From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: Adelaide Clubs

>Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 21:04:04 +0930
>From: "Peter Fitzsimons" <peterf at senet.com.au>

>There seems to a be a lot of interest from people in Adelaide about Home
>Brewing, but there seems to be a severe lack of clubs. Is anyone in Adelaide
>interesting in fixing that (and no, I'm not volunteering for anything just
>yet ...)

I agree. The 2 major clubs (Adelaide and Blackwood) and the
minor (Adelaide Hills) tend to concentrate on winemaking
rather than beer brewing but there are strong enthusiasts
in all of those clubs. The Adelaide Hills club began as a
beer only club but the winemakers spread through the club
like that mould I had in about three of my brews earlier this
year <grin>.
There is strong interest in getting another beer club
up and running - catering mainly to the mash brewers but
most certainly everyone with a brewing interest would be welcome.
I hear about enquiries every few weeks about this. 
At the moment the people who are willing to help
organise this are heavily involved in getting the
SABSOSA competition, the Nationals and the NAWBS show
up and running for this year. Two of us (Thomas Hamann & I)
are off to Britain for the GBBF, then to Belgium and Germany
for a couple of months. Combined with all the comps that
are coming up I can't see much happening before Christmas.
Drop past and see us at the Coopers Homebrew Show this weekend.
We will be there from 10-2 at the Grumpy's Brewhaus stand.
Lyndon Z will be around as well to give you tips on Lambic
brewing!

See ya round like a rissole!

Brad
Aldgate, SA


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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 01:10:31 -0500
From: "Louis K. Bonham" <lkbonham at hypercon.com>
Subject: I'm Back / pH / Kunze / thermodynamics question

Hi folks:

Hokay, I've finally managed to get a major case put to bed (it kept me from
going to the NHC and damn near kept me from MCAB II), and so hopefuly can
spend some quality time brewing, updating MCAB III stuff, going to Foam
Ranger meetings, and doing a couple of articles for Zymurgy . . . and of
course contributing to the HBD.
===========
Regarding pH, Marc Sedam quibbles with Dave Burley on pH measurement
methodology:

>But I would say that he's a bit off as far
>as how to measure the pH.  If you have
>an ATC meter, I say take the sample,
>stick the probe in there, and go.  No need
>to cool the thing down...wastes valuable
>time and there's no advantage to having
>an ATC meter if you cool the sample below,
>say, 140F (so I'm consistent).

While I have a lot of respect from Marc's expertise, I've gotta agree with
Dave on this one.  The relevant ASBC methods (Wort 1 [sampling] and 8 [pH])
plainly call for the wort sample to be attempered to 5-8C and *then* tested.
(This can be done very quickly by using a small ice water bath and a sample
container made from a length of 1" copper pipe fitted with an end cap.)
Regardless of how pH may be measured in other applications, this is the
official brewing industry method, and thus I strongly suspect that it is the
method used by most of the authors of serious brewing tracts.
==================
Speaking of serious brewing tracts, I recently found an English version of
Kunze's Technology Brewing and Malting.  I can see why Steve A. quotes so
much from this one -- it's truly an exceptional work.  A must-have book for
the craft brewer and the hard-core amateur.
====================
Finally, a thermo question for you engineers out there.  I recently scored a
large stainless double wall liquid nitrogen container for cheap at a surlus
auction, and have had it retrofited with various fittings so that it can be
used as a jacketed mash tun.  The vessel is cyllindrical in shape,
fabricated from what appears to be 1/16" thick 314 stainless, interior
dimensions of 16" diameter by 29" high (total capacity: 95.5 liters (26.3
gallons)), and the exterior dimensions of 18" by 30" high -- i.e., about 1"
clearance between the bottom and walls of the two containers (approximate
volume of the shell: 23.6 liters (6.5 gallons)).

I know that steam heating would be ideal, but as I don't have a steam
generator I'm envisioning using a thermostatically controlled pump and a
reservior of heated water, glycol, or oil to deliver the heat to the jacket
for temperature boosts and temperature maintenance..

The question:  Assume that the inner vessel is filled with 50 liters of
water at 40C, and covered with an insulated lid.  Assume that there are 20
liters of fluid (water, glycol, or oil) in the shell that can be maintained
at a constant temperature by recirculating from a larger, heated reservior.
Approximately how hot would the heating fluid have to be to be raise the
temp of the 50 liters of water in the inner chamber to 70C in under 30
minutes?

All the best -- Louis K. Bonham
                     Houston, Texas



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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 08:58:27 +0200 
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: Diabetics and Beer

Two or three digests ago, someone was asking about diabetics and the type of
beer that they can drink. My brother has been a diabetic since 1981. His
control is particularly good, and he does not restrict himself to any
particular beer style, so I asked him whether he should do. His answer is
below:

>As beer is rich in carbohydrates and contains alcohol it is not ideally
suited >to Diabetes.  

>In theory your blood sugar should go up immediately (kind of like eating
>refined sugar) - so you should treat it as such - take short acting insulin
but >as he is type II, I guess he would need to compensate for it by doing
exercise >earlier on in the afternoon (increases the body's natural
absorption of glucose >without putting any strain on the pancreas)

>Alcohol suppresses the release of glucose into the blood sugar so at a
later >stage his sugar levels will fall and then later when the alcohol has
been >processed the sugar levels will rapidly rise. The timing of these
events >changes depending on the amount of beer consumed and various other
things >(what he has eaten, when he last did exercise etc.) The best advice
is always 
>eat before he drinks and test at various times.  

>He should probably not drink at all (or keep it to one or two beers) until
he >has got to grips with how to control his sugar levels. 

>Type I is easier in this respect as I can manipulate my sugar levels
through >the use of insulin. 

I hope this helps - being a brewer and only able to drink one or two types
of beer sounds like a torture straight from Hades.

Cheers

Ant Hayes
Brewing where beer was invented.


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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 03:11:05 EDT
From: Epic8383 at aol.com
Subject: Re: Bavarian helles

     I just read BH as well and was questioning that same couple of 
paragraphs. It would seem to me that aroma hops go in at or just before 
shutting down the boil. I wouldn't want to let the wort sit for 15 min. 
before cooling, especially with a delicately balanced beer like a helles. I 
can smell the DMS just thinking about it.
       Gus Rappold
        Inwood, NY


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Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 07:30:30 +0000
From: Anthony and Mary Ann Tantillo <amtantillo at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Stroh's Signature (reformatted)

Let's try this one more time in a readable format.:-)


Jeff Renner wrote:
> In Homebrew Digest #3365 (June 30, 2000), Bob Hall
> <nap_aca_bh at nwoca.org> asks:
> Can anyone out there give a
> little background on Signature, history, clone, etc.
> "AS I recall, it was a nice beer but still too tame for my tastes. 
> Maltier and richer than a standard American lager,
> with nice flavoring hops, but nothing to write home about..."

>From what I remember about Peter's talk, Signature still used corn as 
an adjunct. The real surprise was that replacing part of the six row
barley with two row did not change the taste according to Stroh's 
tastetesters. 

> I can't remember exactly how Peter used the simile of "kissing your 
> sister" that Fred related, but I think it may have been more 
> regarding light beers than beers other than Stroh's.  Someone else 
> who was there may remember better.

My recollection too is that the "kissing your sister" quote referred to
light beers.He also made the quote "..we turn water into beer not beer
into water.."Does anyone remember exactly what context this quote was
made? It had something to do with the light beer debate, I believe.

> He certainly was an entertaining speaker, especially for those of 
> us interested in the history of beer.

Agreed.  Someone should write a book similar to "Glory of Their Times",
but instead of old baseball players, old regional brewers would recount
their experiences.

Tony Tantillo

amtantillo at earthlink.net


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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 08:16:10 -0400 
From: "Neitzke, Arnold" <Arnold.Neitzke at fanucrobotics.com>
Subject: RE: Rimmers

SO why can't I participate? :)

Arnold J. Neitzke 
Brighton Mi

> Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 21:48:50 -0400
> From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
> Subject: Rimmers
> 
> I need some info from you rimmers ( not Arnold J.).  What 
> watt per sq inch
> ratio do you use?  What is your minimum flow rate and how 
> often does the
> element need to be cleaned?  Anyother advice regarding the use of
> electrical heating elements would be appreciated.
> 
> Dan Listermann   72723.1707 at compuserve.com          dan at listermann.com


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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 08:20:54 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Helles Boil Schedule

Chuck,

I havn't read Horst's newest book yet, but I can tell you from what I know of
German and Large scale brewing what He was getting at.  Most large brewers
(Micro and Pub too) perform some kind of whirlpool after the turn the heat off
the boil. This is sometimes done in the kettle it's self, and in some breweries
it is done in an entirely different vessel. The period of time varies, but is
usually at least a half hour. This is done to coagulate the Hot break, and
concentrate the break matter and the hops into the center of the vessel. The now
"clean" wort is run off the sides of the vessel and through the chiller to the
fermentation tanks. Temperatures do drop during the Whirlpool from 212F to about
190F depending on the system. Adding hops during this stage of brewing has
become known as Whirlpool hopping. As a practice it has gained in popularity
with pub brewing, especially amoung those breweries using the
English/American-Peter Austin/Alan Pugsly systems. Whirlpool hopping and the use
of a Hop Jack (or hop percolator) are how these breweries (like Full Sail) get
such a huge hop character in thier beers.

Now, using it in a helles is somewhat surprising since this is an Aroma hoping
technique. Ill have to check my tasting notes, on my impression of Spaten while
I was in germany, But I don't remember much hop presence at all. My Impression
of Helles as a style is not hoppy at all, it Malt, Malt, Malty!!! Club Member
Bill Saurbek brought a Helles from Hacker-Pshorr (Munich Edelhel) to the last
Prison City Brewers meeting. It must have been Really Fresh off the boat because
it was the best commercial example of a Helles I've had in this country. Yum!!!!
The best in Germany, according to the Munichers, and I have to agree, is
Andechs. A Kloister brewery in Herrsching, a train, a taxi and a short hike up a
steep hill from Munich. Its a long way to go for great beer, but its the best
there is--and that goes double for their Doppel! WOW!!!

Phil Wilcox




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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 08:36:02 EDT
From: KMacneal at aol.com
Subject: Re: Sour mashing

In a message dated 7/6/2000 12:19:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jim Layton 
<a0456830 at rtxmail1.rsc.raytheon.com> writes:

<< Give the sour mashing a try, Graham, and be sure to report back how it
 turns out. I may try it if it works for you. If not, I'll stick with
 what has worked for me in the past. >>

I've used the sour mash technique several times -- in stouts, wits, and other 
Belgian styles.  The sour mash does smell pretty bad when I mash it in, but 
the rank odor does not carry over to the finished product.

Keith MacNeal
Worcester, MA


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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 08:28:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: Steven Ensley <steve at globaldialog.com>
Subject: Great Taste of the Midwest

2 things,  

First, If you havent got your tickets yet for the 14th Annual Great Taste
of the Midwest coming up on August 12 at Olin Turville Park in Madison,
WI, you better get them.  More info at http://www.hbd.org/greattaste .

Second,  If your club or organization would like to send me some
brochures, Ill make sure they are placed on our publications table for
attendees to see.

- -- 
Steve Ensley

- --

"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong"
                                  Voltaire




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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 06:30:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Road Frog <road_frog_run at yahoo.com>
Subject: Acid Wit

Graham Sanders shouts:
>Well I cant remember exactly where I heard it, but
>the lactic mash was
>memtioned as a technique to control the acid level
>of Wits.

>I could use Lactic acid as you suggest, But the
>beers I have found that have
>used it sort of taste like lactic acid has been used
>out of a bottle.  Just
>a bit artificial.  I want to go with some 'natural
lactic >acid addition' so
>that it tastes more authenthic. (i hope this makes
>sense).

How about acid malt?  I have picked some up and used
it at the rate of 1/2 lb 
per 5 gallons.  Not having done a blinded by triangles
test I could not 
tell a difference.  I really need to do the Doc Pivo
and brew one beer over
and over changing 1 thing.  But I never can decide,
Wit, Rye Porter, Tripel???

Next time I'm using more!  The malt has an acidic
taste and (QDA) 
I think was used by the Germans to control PH while
staying within the
law.

Anyone have any experience with acid malt?

For anyone who remembers or cares, I plan on bottling
the popcorn roasted 
barley stout next week.

Glyn Crossno
Estill Springs,  TN

PS. Stay away from acid, use the malt!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/


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Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 10:20:10 -0400
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Calomel

WRT to the discussion of pH meters and calomel (mercuric chloride):
calomel used to be very popular in the reference junctions of
inexpensive pH electrodes but seems to be going the way of buggy whips
and high button shoes. It  _shouldn't_  find its way into your mash even
if you electrode does contain it but it might and that's not a risk
worth taking. Furthermore, it melts at mash temperatures and thus an
electrode with a calomel reference used at mash temperatures can be
ruined. This by itself is reason enough why electrodes should not be
inerted into hot mash unless you are sure of their composition.

As I have written here many times before, brewing is a demanding
application for a pH meter electrode. Gums, sugars, proteins and mash
solids all contribute to potential reference electrode junction fouling.
Because of this I highly recommend double junction electrodes with
renewable reference. Almost all of these use potassium chloride as the
fill. A good clue that this is the case is when the electrode comes with
a bottle of saturated KCl for refilling. KCl is, of course, quite
harmless so that the potential hazards of calomel ekectrodes are not
there when using a KCl filled electrode in the mash. Nevertheless I
advise against putting an electrode directly in the mash because
someday, somewhere, someone will find some way to hurt himself while
doing this and I don't want to be held liable.

When looking at electrodes watch out for those that use a fill
containing silver ions. These are poisonous (though not very) but, of
more importance, form precipitates with mash/wort/beer proteins which
can clog the junction.



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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 09:45:26 -0500 
From: "George, Marshall E." <MGeorge at bridge.com>
Subject: Wyeast 1332 - Yes!

> I used Wyeast 1332 a couple of months ago in an 
> American Brown Ale that I have done before with 1084 (Irish Ale).
> Despite all claims that they WON'T TELL YOU...if 1332 isn't RedHook's 
> yeast it's awful damn close to it.  The resulting beer I made was very good - 
> even my wife likes it and she's not into darker beers due to the
> roasted / chocolate malt flavors.  
> 
> So...It would do very nicely in an Amber Ale.  This was what I made:
> 
> Bombs Away Brown Ale
> 
> Grain Bill:
> 
> 6# Briess 2-Row
> 2# Munich (8L)
> 1# Malted Wheat
> 0.5# English Crystal 60L
> 0.25# Belgian Special B
> 0.25# Belgian Chocolate Malt
> 
> Target OG:  1.054 (75%), I got 1.060 (oops)
> 
> Mashed at 140 degrees for 15 min, 154 for 90 min, mashout at 170 for 15 min.
> 
> Hops:
> 
> 1 oz Northern Brewer, 6.7%AA, 60 min
> 1 oz Willamette, 5.5%AA, 10 min
> 1 oz Willamette, 5.5%AA, 3 min
> 
> Wyeast 1332 (RedHook)
> 
> This yeast ferments very well IMO,
> and ferments hard if you make a good starter.
> 
> Marshall George
> Glen Carbon, IL


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Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 11:07:28 -0700
From: Bob Hall <nap_aca_bh at nwoca.org>
Subject: Buckeye is Back

In line with the thread on "old" beers, the late night news on TV-11,
Toledo, had a feature on the resurrection of Buckeye Beer, brewed in
Toledo from 18?? to 1972. Seems that some fellows at a BOP in suburban
Perrysburg decided to bring back the local brew. Apparently no recipes
were available, so they gathered focus groups of former Buckeye drinkers
and modified ingredients until, as one old fellow put it, the tasters
had a "memory flash." Two hundred cases have been produced and are on
sale at various outlets in the city including the Anderson's.

Speaking of memory flashes, when I was young, married, and poor, we used
to make the trip across the border to Farmer Jack's Supermarket in
Adrian, MI, and buy Buckeye for 99 cents an eight pack. Of course, now
that I'm simply married and poor, I make my own and appreciate any flash
I can get.

Bob Hall



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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 11:44:33 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: pH measurements,bubble counter

Brewsters:

Marc Sedam, comments on my suggestion to remove the sample from the mash
tun, measure the temperature while reading the pH with a temperature
compensated probe. Read my comments again and note, please, Mark I did not
suggest that the sample be cooled if you had a temperature compensating
probe. As was explained by AJ so eloquently here, the ATC only compensates
for the instrumentation (i.e. the probe thermal drift)  NOT for the
thermodynamic pH variation with temperature. That is why I suggested you
measure the temperature even though you use an ATC probe. It is a good idea
to cool it to preserve the probe, but it is <necessary> to know the
temperature so you can correct it to standard conditions. An interesting
experiment would be to measure the same wort at various temperatures and
plot the pH.
- --------------------------------------------------
Sandy Macmillan asks if he can use the opitcal diodes in his defunct mouse
to make a bubble counter. Sandy, if your city in Saudi Arabi has a Radio
Shack near you, stop in and buy one of the simpler books on the subject of
optoelectronics, or perhaps you can order one through their website.

Check the  voltage being supplied to the chip on the mouse so you can
modify any circuit designs as needed. More than likely these devices will
not be satisfactory as they are often spaced such they don't have much room
between the light emitter and receiver. There are other simpler devices
described in these books which could be made to work.  Light scatter may be
a problem and you may have to provide some shielding, but I am sure to can
be made to work.
- --------------------------------------------------
Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 12:19:55 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: pH

Marc Sedam wrote:

>I used
>to have (well still have a nonfunctioning version of) a
>Piccolo Plus pH meter.  Thing of beauty.  Accuracy to 0.02
>units...small, useful, had ATC.  I got to use the thing
>*about* 5 times before the probe fried. 

Sorry to hear about the probe being fried.  Yes, a real pH meter is a thing
of beatuy in any techno-brewer's hands.  As for sampling, it is better
practice to remove a sample and take the pH.  Caveat:  In a well-mixed
homogeneous solution.  No mash is ever well-mixed and homogenous enough,
IMHO.  The best sample you might hope for would probably come from a RIMS
column.  It would be better to take a few samples from different portions of
the mash to get a "good idea" of what the overall pH looks like.  It would
be best not to even care about such accuracy.

Hey, I had to post SOMETHING - break up the buzz from these rowdy
Australians ;-)

Glen Pannicke
http://www.pannicke.net


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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 14:08:19 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Bavarian Helles

Chuck Mryglot <cmryglot at cisco.com> wrote about the new Bavarian Helles book

>Looking at the hopping schedule it advises to add flavor hops at
>shutdown and to add aroma hops 10 - 15 minutes after shutdown.
><snip>   For me, 10 - 15 minutes
>after shutdown is during the chilling phase and the wort is maybe 150
>degrees F at this point.    Is it not a bad idea to add hops to
>unfermented wort at such a low temperature for fear of contamination?

I think that in a big brewery the wort would still be hotter than that  - I
think it is a whirlpool addition, like a hopback addition.  But even 150F
(66C) is probably still hot enough to kill bugs - barely.  My guess is that
this may have an effect similar to first wort hopping, which is done lauter
temperatures, or ~170F (76C).

>The book credits brewers from Spaten with a technical review.

I think it must have been a cursory review based on the water chemistry
section.  See my post below that I've sent the publisher.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 14:08:59 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: To the Publisher of Brewers Publications

To Toni Knapp, Publisher
Brewers Publications

Dear Ms. Knapp

I've been looking forward to Bavarian Helles as this is a favorite style of
mine, so I picked up a copy at the National Homebrew Conference last month.
I haven't read the book thoroughly, but the section on water chemistry,
specifically p. 70,  is so full of errors that jumped out at me that my
confidence in the authority of the rest of the book has been shaken.

Specifically:

"If you happen to have very hard water, your mash may benefit from the
addition of gypsum (calcium sulfate, CaSO4) to your brewing liquor to lower
mash acidity (that is, reduce alkalinity).  It takes about 15 grams of
gypsum ... to decrease the hardness of 5 gallons of brewing liquor by 250
ppm."

This is simply wrong.  Hardness is defined as the level of Ca++ and Mg+
(calcium and magnesium ions).  The addition of gypsum will manifestly RAISE
the Ca++ or hardness.  Equating lower mash acidity with reduced alkalinity
is also nonsensical.  Acidity and alkalintiy are opposite of one another -
if one is lowered, the other cannot be lowered as an effect.  The addition
of CaSO4 has no direct effect on alkalinity.  It works by enabling malt
enzymes that need Ca++ to lower mash pH by producing an acid.

In the next line the author writes that CaCl2, calcium chloride, is "also
known as rock salt."  Not where I come from - here rock salt is coarse NaCl
(common, table salt) as it is mined.  See any dictionary.

Then this strange passage (I'm not being too harsh here, am I?) about
adding CaCO3 to the mash:  "In the mash there is sufficient heat and
aeration to keep calcium carbonate stable.  Without heat and aeration,
calcium carbonate would dissolve into constituent fractional components
that are useless to the brewer."

Where to start in commenting about this?  If a salt (CaCO3 in this case)
does not ionize (I think that's what the author means by "dissolve into
constituent fractional components"), it would be useless as it would not
participate in any reactions.  And stable in the mash because of heat and
aeration?  What does this mean?  My mash is hot but I hope it is not
aerated.  But this has nothing to do with stability of CaCO3.  It will
dissociate (ionize) more or less depending on the aciedity of the mash.
CaCO3 is normally added to the mash of a DARK beer to raise the pH if the
water is lacking in alkalinity to balance the acidity of the dark grains.
I can think of no use for it in brewing a Helles.

Then this:

"Other commercial breweries raise their mash pH with an addition of slaked
lime, technically known as calcium huydroxide (CaOH2), to their brewing
water.  Slaked lime causes calcium and bicarbonates to precipitate, which
makes the water more alkaline."

First, there is a set of parentheses missing - calcium hydroxide is
Ca(OH)2.  This treatment is done not to raise the mash pH, as stated, but
to lower it by removing the bicarbonate alkalinity from the brewing water.
And while the treated water does rise in pH, it is not more alkaline -
while perhaps counterintuitive, it is less alkaline, since the bicarbonates
precipitate out.  This treatment allows the brewer to achieve a proper mash
pH with all pale malt.

On a related subject, I am surprised that the author did not mention the
advances a century ago in the understanding of water chemistry and brewing
water treatment that made possible the brewing of a pale beer with Munich's
alkaline water.  German trained master brewer Fred  Scheer (who spoke at
NHC2000) is the son and grandson of Munich brewers - his grandfather was
brewing at the birth of Helles.  Fred has mentioned this factor as key.
The strong desire of many Munich brewers to compete with Pilsener had to
wait for this understanding.

Brewing water chemistry is a complicated subject and I think it is
deserving of a book of its own.  There is much contradictory and incorrect
information in many texts.  AJ DeLange would be an excellent author.  He
wrote an article on the subject for Brewing Techniques and frequently
contributes knowledgebly and clearly to HomeBrew Digest.

I think that Horst Dornbusch should have let someone like AJ DeLange write
the section on water chemistry, or at least review it.  It is apparent he
does not have the necessary grasp of chemistry.  He may brew fine beer, but
here he is in over his head.  I am surprised that these errors got past the
people at Spaten he credits with reviewing his manuscript.

Jeff Renner

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 15:31:09 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Big Beer/Small Beer Parti-gyle brewing 

My observation was that the gravity of the first runnings depends
almost entirely on the "thickness" of the mash.  A "thicker" mash
(less water per grain) will produce first runnings of a higher
gravity than a "thinner" mash.  (Well, duh!)

I'm including an old posting with some numbers.  I don't talk about
the "second runnings" beer, but assume that the "rest" of the extract
can be removed as second runnings by sparging as usual.  How much that
"rest" is depends on your usual system efficiency.

=S


Date: Tue, 7 Jun 94 12:44:04 EDT
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Attention Mathematicians!

Here's a table I use to for making high gravity beers from
first-runnings, only.  I then sparge second runnings to make a weaker
beer from the remaining extract.  The method is this: mash with the
specified water-grain ratio, then drain the bed dry.  Use these "first
runnings" for your strong beer.  You can sparge as fast as it will go,
because if your mash is properly mixed, the sugar in the liquor and in
the grain are in equilibrium, so no extra sugars will be extracted by
going slowly.

How to read the table: the first column is quarts of water per pound
of grain.  The second is the specific gravity of the run-off in
"points" (e.g. 105 means 1.105).  The third column is quarts of
run-off collected per pound.  The final column is your extract
efficiency in pt-lb/gallon.  These are pre-boil figures, so if you
boil down from 6 to 5 gallons, you'll get another 15% or so (e.g.,
1.105 -> 1.120, which I actually got in my most recent "bombastic beer"
attempt).

        qt/lb   SG      collect extract
        1       105      .4     10
        1.25     90      .65    15
        1.5      80      .9     18
        2        60     1.4     21

These numbers work for my system, and were determined by experiment.
Your mileage may (will?) vary.  I'm assuming that each pound of wet
grain absorbs .6 quarts of water.  A recent article in Brewing
Techniques gave a figure of .4 qt/lb, which would obviously increase
the amount of run-off (and would improve the efficiency).

=S


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Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 17:11:23 -0400
From: stencil <stencil at bcn.net>
Subject: Re: Bubble Counter

On Thu, 6 Jul 2000 00:11:49 -0400, Sandy Macmillan wrote:
> [ ... ]
>I was dismantling a mouse, electronic type!, and note that this contains
>light emitting diode and receiver. Any genius out there can tell me how to
>modify this mouse bit to count bubble at the fermentation lock?
>

Two-part problem: a. Getting the bubble action to
interrupt the light path between the source and the
detector, and b. Sensing and recording the changing
current through the photosensor.
a.  If the LED and sensor are separate units and your
airlock is the "floating hat" variety, fixing the
components to the outer shell and giving the hat an opaque
region (aluminum foil? electrician's tape?) near its top
(dryer up there) may work.  If the bubbler is a
serpentine, you may want to dye the fluid (very strong
iodophor solution?) so as to increase the visibility of
the bubbles and so sense them directly.  Otherwise, I
visualize a cylinder of opaque floating material, massive
enough not to adhere to the wall of the bubbler, in the
last lap of the serpentine.  If the photocell is the
integrated type, basically a block with a slit within
which a photochopper wheel turned, life gets more
complicated...  visualize a fin glued to the side of the
hat, the photo unit attached to the inside of the outer
cylinder....  too complicated for me.  How about a
microphone cemented to the bubbler and a highgain modular
preamp with an agc-like detector (1N34, 47K, .001uf) at
the output...
b.  ...Now you have a sequence of low-voltage pulses.  The
immediate notion would be to feed them to some sort of
data logging device, possibly built around a Basic Stamp
module or maybe fed into the serial port of a pc...  I
have seen references to some shareware utilities that
permit you to communicate via the serial port but have
never followed up... However... for $20 or so you can get
(at Radio Shack or some hobby shops) a "wireless
microphone" kit that's really a fleapower FM transmitter
that can be picked up on a nearby receiver.  If the real
object of the exercise is to avoid having to go down to
the root cellar every few hours, this might be the best
bet.  Not elegant, but it would keep the workbench free of
an accumulating pile of mouse guts.

Personally, I just wait 96 hours and rack to secondary.

stencil sends
RKBA!




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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 17:31:53 -0500
From: "Lynne O'Connor" <stpats at zoom.realtime.net>
Subject: electrodes/pH papers/wit pH/ acid malt/

Based on my knowledge of Celis, I would suggest a pH of 5.2 (at room
temperature) for wit beer at beginning of boil.  Direct addition of lactic
acid to kettle
will work and is the method employed at Celis.  I would suggest pH in the
bottle of 4.2 which may require additional lactic acid at bottling.  Note
this bottle pH is about .2 -.3 below most beers.

There are more traditional ways of dropping pH, one being acid malt.  Acid
malt is used in Germany to satisfy that purity
business. It has a distinctive sour vinegary taste. I introduced
acid malt to US when I first imported Weyermann a few years back.
  I no longer import Weyermann so recently I received some Weissheimer
acid malt from another supplier.  It ain't acid malt.  I don't
know if the sacks were simply mislabeled or what, but if you
have this product simply taste it to see if its the real thing.

Dave Burley's notes toxic stuff in electrodes is a concern.  The refillable
electrodes may be more of a concern but the gel-filled sealed electrodes
can also pose a health risk if broken.  There are electrodes available
which do not contain toxic stuff but I haven't carried them because
there were other shortcomings.  there are lots of issues when
choosing an electrode and it is not at all easy to get clear
information as Marc Sedam noted.  The one that frustrated me
was the mfg selling a unit with ATC up to 100C but a standard
probe good only to 80C.  this 80C should not be confused with
the operating range to 50C, which is the range the electronics
can operate to and has nothing to do with the electrode limit
of 80C.

AJ expanded with details about why pH varies with temperature
which brings us back to the orginal question about pH papers
and temperature. I did a quick check with cheap and expensive
pH papers and decided cheap ones are hopeless at high temperatures
(I got a different answer every time).  the expensive papers
(not colorphast but some German ones) gave a lower pH reading
at high temperature but the resolution (0.50) wasn't enough to
know if it was accurate.  I did a quick search on the web and
couldn't find any info on temperature dependence of pH papers.
Maybe someone else can find something?

Lynne O'Connor
St. Patrick's of Texas Brewers Supply
512-989-9727
www.stpats.com


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