---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  probe washing & cereal mashes ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  Re: water chemistry (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Nitrogen Blend System Help (phil sides jr)
  2nd runnings and no-sparge (brolston)
  New Trappist Brewery (RBoland)
  ginger beer instructions? (RoniBoni44)
  dry hop woes (Aaron Perry)
  RIMS proportions (LyndonZimmermann)
  fermentation (TLCHEEK)
  Company In The Back Of The Ute? ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  pH/CGA ("A. J.")
  Medical grade o2 setup (Mench5)
  Re: corn meal CAP (Jeff Renner)
  Recipe for Pelforth? ("John Todd Larson")
  Rust in a keg ("Keith Christian")
  Sigh! Good to have a soul mate... (Some Guy)
  Beer prayer from Oz (BsmntBrewr)
  Sour Mash (and cheap wine) ("Eric J Fouch")


* 2000 AHA NHC pics and stories at http://hbd.org/miy2k
* JULY IS AMERICAN BEER MONTH! Take the American Beer
* Pledge of Allegiance! Support your local brewery...
* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 08:50:19 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: probe washing & cereal mashes

Marc S. mentions, >>A quick dip in
caustic followed by a dH2O rinse repeated 2-3x does the
trick.<<
 My pH meter specifically mentions avoiding strong caustics to prolong
probe life. A perhaps *gentler method would be to use pepsin or
papain to break down the protein buildup that blocks the junction.
One could get "Adolph's Meat Tenderizer (r)" which would be food grade
and certainly available at most supermarkets.   
******************************

Dave Ludwig asked, >> What's the 10 oz of malt for? I
decided not to add the malt at first and using 1.5 qt water, found the
corn meal became gooey and
clumpy, basically unworkable. I added the 10 oz of malt and half a qt of
water, mixed it up and the mash
was much better and easy to work<<

You sorta answered your own question there. The added malt helps
liquify a bit of the starch and keeps the cereal mash from turning into
a big pot of cornmeal mush. This has been debated here before as
to whether or not it is *necessary at the homebrew scale.
_Necessary_no, extremely helpful, yes. Even in my heavy (12 lb)
cereal cooker it is quite an effort to keep the corn from sticking and
clumping. A coupla handfuls of malt and it doesn't need constant
attention.
  Alpha amylase doesn't require the starch to be gelatinized to do its'
work. It can attack the raw starch and that characteristic can be used
to create malted barley to begin with and then in the cereal cooker.
  I'm surprised you couldn't find plain ol' cornmeal though. I just bought
a 5 lb bag of "Aunt Jemima" degermed meal, and I wouldn't describe
Pittsburgh as "hush-puppy country." 


N.P. Lansing


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Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 10:15:04 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: water chemistry

In HBD 3372 Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu> comments on my critique of the
water chemistry section in the new BP book Bavarian Helles:

>But one small nit to pick
>with Jeff's comments on slaked lime.  Of course it will help
>ppt any Ca++ and Mg++ and do all the other things Jeff said
>re: alkalinity, etc.  But once all of the minerals are ppt
>it certainly would increase the pH of the water.  I don't
>think that's what the article was referring to, but a slight
>correction at best.  Maybe I'm being a bit cranky on
>this...not a big deal really.

I think we're saying the same thing.  The slaked lime treatment reduces the
alkalinity by precipitating out the bicarbonate ions and (but?) increases
the pH from the excess of OH- ions, but it's a weakly buffered system.

Dornbusch didn't say that it increased the pH of the treated water but
rather that it made it more alkaline.  These are not the same, of course.
The treated water is less alkaline (less total alkalinity as measured by
titration) and has a higher pH.  It is the lowered alkalinity that is of
importance to the brewer.  AJ has described this treatment in detail and
his posts are in the archives.

Here's what Dornbusch wrote:

"Other commercial breweries raise their mash pH with an addition of slaked
lime, technically known as calcium hydroxide (CaOH2), to their brewing
water.  Slaked lime causes calcium and bicarbonates to precipitate, which
makes the water more alkaline."

I wrote:

>This treatment is done not to raise the mash pH, as stated, but
>to lower it by removing the bicarbonate alkalinity from the brewing water.
>And while the treated water does rise in pH, it is not more alkaline -
>while perhaps counterintuitive, it is less alkaline, since the bicarbonates
>precipitate out.

BTW, I received an email from Toni Knapp, the publisher, saying that she
had forwarded my comments to the author, whom she expects that he will
respond to HBD, and to the technical editor, who is a commercial brewer.

Jeff


 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 11:43:13 -0400
From: phil sides jr <psides at technologist.com>
Subject: Re: Nitrogen Blend System Help

Lonzo McLaughlin <lonkelm at dol.net> asks:

>1.  RAPIDS Supply sold me a regulator that is rated for nitrogen but
has a
>C.G.A. 320 connection that only connects to low pressure CO2 tanks.
RAPIDS
>says I should ask for the blend to be placed in a CO2 bottle.  This
sounds
>dangerous to me and the gas company refuses to do so.

>2.  Gas company approach:  Where in the hell did you get this
regulator?
>The gas company agrees the regulator can be used for nitrogen, I just
need
>to replace the stem and nut that connects to the tank with one that
fits
>Nitrogen tanks (C.G.A 580).  Well, they had the stem and the nut but
the
>thread from the stem into the regulator on my regulator is left hand
>thread.  The gas company has never seen this.  All their stems are
right
>hand thread.

>What thread is everyone's regulators out there that are rated for
nitrogen?

>What would this forum recommend I take as a path forward other than buy
a
>new regulator?

Lonzo,
Well the short answer is find another gas supplier.  If your current
supplier has not heard of this (mixing in a CO2 bottle) it *may* suggest
that they don't even sell beverage grade gas.  And no, I am not trying
to start a new debate on food grade vs. welding gas...

The high pressure regulator you have is designed to dispense a
CO2/nitrogen blend with a nitrogen content between 30% and 100%.  There
are two 'standard' blends; 80/20 aka 'beer gas' or a 70/30 blend, but
decent beverage gas suppliers will mix it to anything you want in your
tank.  The reason your regulator has a CO2 type stem on it is so that
you can buy a custom blend (30% nitrogen or more) in your existing CO2
tanks.  80/20 mixes can be dispensed with a standard low pressure
regulator.

I would imagine the way most of us do this is to buy the 80/20 (beer
gas) in CO2 tanks and use standard CO2 regulators.  You can do it with
your regulator, but I would return it and buy a standard CO2 regulator
if I were you.  For most regulators though, it is a simple matter to
change the stem to a nitrogen stem, but I suspect this will be a far
less economical route (using nitrogen tanks) in the long run.  I would
think you could get this stem with the correct threads from Rapids.
Even if you do solve the stem problem, find another gas supplier.  Let's
just say been there... done that ;-)

Phil Sides
Concord, NH
- --
Oh Death, Oh Death, Thou Art So Unfair...
To Take Away Sonny And Still Leave Us Cher. - Eric Idle




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Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 12:51:33 -0400
From: brolston at freedom.net
Subject: 2nd runnings and no-sparge

I am new to all grain brewing and have lurked on this message board for 
some time.  I am planning to do a no sparge batch in the near future, but 
have some questions in regard to the 2nd runnings.  I can't seem to find 
the specific answers in the archives

Let's say I want to brew two beers from no sparge session, a stout with the 
first runnings and a IPA with the second. I was thinking about measuring 
the gravity of the second runnings (which I assume will be lower than I 
need for the SG of the IPA), plugging this value into Promash, and 
calculating the amount of LME I would need to reach a starting gravity for 
the IPA recipe.  Assuming everything else is equal (sanitation, amount and 
oxygenation of the yeast, ect.), wouldn't this beer be of better quality 
than one made simply from extract/speciality grains? Would this be 
considered something of a partial mash since I am adding LME?

Next question has to do with the speciality grains.  Since the stout and 
IPA use different specialty grains, wouldn't I be better off leaving them 
out of the mash and steeping the respective specialty grains separately in 
the boiling kettle along with the wort?  In this way, it would seem I would 
have maximum flexibility in creating two distinct beers without having to 
work around the ingredients used in the mash for the first recipe.  Do you 
see problems with this approach, besides the addition of time to the 
brewing process to steep the speciality grains in the boiling kettle along 
with the wort?

I was hoping this approach will allow me to get two quality beers from my 
no sparge session instead of only one.  Thanks for your help.

B. Rolston


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Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 15:31:59 EDT
From: RBoland at aol.com
Subject: New Trappist Brewery

I hear there's a new Trappist brewery on the Belgium-Netherlands border.  Has 
anyone been there and sampled their beers?  

Bob Boland


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Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 16:28:10 EDT
From: RoniBoni44 at aol.com
Subject: ginger beer instructions?

Hi everybody, I've just subscribed to the list and want to get my feet wet 
(not literally, I hope) by making some of the non-alcoholic-type ginger beer. 
 Problem is I'm so new to this I haven't really picked up anything from 
reading the posts, much less gotten a clue about how to get started.  So a 
wistful plea goes out for a 'ginger beer for dummies' list of ingredients, 
supplies and step-by-step set of instructions.  So far my searching has 
turned up recipes with no instructions or instructions with supplies I can't 
find, etc.  Does anybody know of a good site or two?  

Thanks bunches,

Veronica


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Date: Sat, 08 Jul 2000 17:11:57 -0400
From: Aaron Perry <vspbcb at earthlink.net>
Subject: dry hop woes

Hi Folks,

I dry hopped a keg with .5 oz of Cascade in a muslin bag a few days ago. This
was my first time using whole hops for dry hops, also my first time dry
hopping a keg (I usually put pellets in the secondary). My question is, has
anyone else ever noticed an aroma or flavor of burlap when dry hopping? I'm
hoping there aren't bits of that burlap smelling hop rope I've seen in my
whole hops before. The stange thing is that my tasting panel (wife) dosn't
percive any trace of burlap at all. She says that all she smells and tastes is
hops. Then she screws up her face like she took a mouthful of crap!(dosn't
like the smell of hops, dirty heathen). 

So, has anyone out there noticed this phenominon while dry hopping? Dose it
fade? The keg is deliciously hoppy and the burlapyness is slight, so I could
probably make my way through the keg if it stays.....but it could be better IMO.

TIA
AP


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Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 10:35:06 +0930
From: LyndonZimmermann <lyndonz at senet.com.au>
Subject: RIMS proportions

Greetings,

Now this year's wine is bottled (30 bottles of sparkling cabernet sauvignon
last night) I'm back thinking of RIMS.  Assistance in control gear has been
coming in.

My prototoype RIMS has a grain capacity of 20 litres.  How much grain will
this hold?  How much beer will it make?  I realise this will vary, but I'm
just trying to get my proportions in order.

Regards,

Lyndon Zimmermann
Adelaide, Australia

Lyndon Zimmermann
BE (Mech Adel) Grad Dip Bus Admin (UniSA)
24 Waverley St, Mitcham, South Australia, 5062
tel +61-8-8272 9262 mobile 0414 91 4577 fax +61-8-8172 1494
email lyndonz at senet.com.au URL http://users.senet.com.au/~lyndonz



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Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2000 22:19:03 EDT
From: TLCHEEK at aol.com
Subject: fermentation

Hi,  I  have a question regarding pitching and how a fermentation should 
behave.  I know I messed up by not dissolving my edme yeast into the cooled 
wort- I  just pured it into the wort and agitated well.  I hooked up a tube 
in the plug of my carboy and vented to a water seal..  I had tremendous 
activity during the first 24 hours- then it quickly subsided.  By thesecond 
day there was little activity at all.  I put an airlock on the carboy and 
haven't seen hardly any activity since day three.  The Krausen did coat the 
sides of the carboy and there is very little foam on the surface of the wort 
now.  It has been about a week.  Did  this fermentation go off well?  Should 
I try to re- pitch this wort?  Don't ask about specific gravities because I 
haven't got a hydrometer yet but will purchase one soon.  This is my first 
batch- an all grain 2 row with 60 crystal and saaz hops- single stage mashing 
for 45 minutes followed by sparging and a boil as usual.  Can yu advise me 
befor I attempt to bottle?  Terry


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Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 19:51:48 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Company In The Back Of The Ute?

It's high time I commented on the very latest of brilliant ideas to bounce
forth from Burradoo Estate - home of fine drinking and convivial company.
Even Jill took a night off from the monotonous task of supplying domestic
beatings and had to congratulate me on this one.

Well I am being a bit naughty here. The kit and caboodle actually came from
Regan's shop, but I am so far down on brownie points I told a little fibby
and said I thought it up myself. Jill never thought to ask me "Since when
did you become a stainless steel welder"? Thank God she has little idea what
really goes on in the garage!!

But enough of this suspense. What I am talking about is a portable 10 litre
keg. Cut down and rewelded from an 18 litre corny and supplied with an
attachment to allow propulsion from a mini CO2 bottle (as what fits into a
Sodastream Soda Water making machine). My contribution to this brilliant
little device (apart from buying it) was to discover that it fits perfectly
into a 25 litre plastic fermenting bucket and a bag of ice (from your local
garage) will surround it nicely and keep it icy cold. I have tested it from
Burradoo to Sydney and back, where it sat snugly in the back of the ute.

What a brilliant combo. Should you get a little thirsty on your travels and
can't quite make it home, just pull off the highway, hop in the back of the
ute and open the gun. Instant icy rice lager!! Or what ever is your fancy of
the time.
And who knows what else you might find under the tarp. Maybe those pretty
European girls hitch hiking back in the last town crawled into the back of
the ute when you were stopped at the lights, but you didn't notice.

JILL !!!! I'm thinking naughty thoughts again!
You better get the "cat of nine tails" out.
I'm gunna cop another beating!!

Sorry, I'll calm down in a minute. But this mobile drinking gizmo has really
got me excited.
I just love gizmos
And European women
When I can get my hands on them
Which is never

I don't really like beatings
But oh boy!
I'm gunna cop it tonight!!


Cheers
Phil





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Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1904 14:26:02 +0000
From: "A. J." <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: pH/CGA

Marc asks about the relevance of room temperature measurements to mash
pH. It's widely accepted that room temperature pH is 0.3 units higher
than mash tun temperature though the actual shift depends on the mash
temperature - room temperature difference, the composition of the grist
and the alkalinity of the water. In my experience the rise is more like
0.15 to 0.20 but I only measure room temperaure pH to see what the rise
is. The measurement I record is made at mash temperature with a double
junction, free flow junction electrode.

Thus, in a commercial operation, the value of pH measurement is not so
much in what the actual number is as in whether it's repeatable. If
brewing logs indicate that a particular  pale ale recipe wort has
measured  5.30 +/- 0.05 over the years and a reading comes in at 5.52
the
QC people know something is very amiss. In home brewing where we don't
have such good control over process I find pH measurements which fall
where my experience has told me they should for a particular beer very
comforting. Particularly so is the precipitous drop in pH which signals
the onset of fermentation before any visible signs are manifest.

Marc comments that once water and grist are known and properly treated
the meter can go back into the closet. One could say the same of the
hydrometer and even the thermometer!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Nitrogen bottles require a CGA 680 fitting.



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Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 11:19:18 EDT
From: Mench5 at aol.com
Subject: Medical grade o2 setup

Brew Brothers
I finally got an O2 bottle for what I wanted to pay(read, cheap).Now I find I 
must have a prescription to fill my medical grade bottle ( I kind of knew it 
but thought it would be easy to get around). I have $15.00 into an "e" 
cylinder and regulator. I am considering selling the rig and looking for a 
welding rig. Are there any ideas (loopholes) out there I am missing? I love 
loopholes.

Also, the regulator seems to have a preset psi level and a needle valve to 
control flow rate. I worry that the predetermined psi will be too weak to 
push o2 through my diffusion stone. In it's intended use a very low psi would 
seem to be best. Anyone know if this will be a problem and how to adjust the 
psi setting if this is the case?
That is if I can convince my Dr. that well oxygenated beer will help my 
sciatica!!!

Cheers
Tom Moench
mench5 at aol.com


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Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:28:55 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: corn meal CAP 

Dave Ludwig <dludwig at us.hsanet.net> wrote that in his CAP he

>used roasted whole corn meal. At the grocery store, seems the only
>choices are the roasted whole or the
>quaker oats(degermed and enriched) corn meals. A couple of questions:
>1) Will I have the oil problem with the "whole" corn meal? The
>fermentation looks normal and has a nice
>thick krausen.

It may be a theoretical problem, not a practical one.  Both Jack Schmidling
and George DePiro have reported no problems with whole corn meal.  Still,
I'd prefer degermed as it is one less thing to worry about.

>2) Will the "roasted" corn meal be a positive flavor enhancement to the
>beer or is it better to use "unroasted"?

You are charting new territory, so report back.  However, I bought a bag of
Briess "Instagrits" (made for the restaurant trade, not brewing) that had a
distinctive roasted corn flavor that I suspect resulted from the precooking
that made them instant.  I didn't care for it in beer or for breakfast,
even thoughthe flavor was rather like roasted corn on the cob, which I
like.  Apparently this is not a normal flavor in this product.

>Jeff Renner's
>instructions call for 2 lbs corn meal and 10 oz malt for the cerial
>mash. What's the 10 oz of malt for? I
>decided not to add the malt at first and using 1.5 qt water, found the
>corn meal became gooey and
>clumpy, basically unworkable. I added the 10 oz of malt and half a qt of
>water, mixed it up and the mash
>was much better and easy to work. Seems the malt at least makes the mash
>less gooey.

You've answered your own question - that's what it's for.  If you add it at
the beginning and do a short rest at ~153F (67C) before boiling, it makes
it even easier to work with.


 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 15:09:48 -0700
From: "John Todd Larson" <larson at amazon.com>
Subject: Recipe for Pelforth?

On a recent trip to Paris, I consumed a large quantity of a beer called
Pelforth.  It was a brown, lightly-hopped beer that I enjoyed quite a bit.
I have searched the archives and have found nothing.  Can anyone tell me
more about this beer and suggest an all-grain clone?

TIA,

Todd Larson

J. Todd Larson
Finance Manager
Amazon.com
larson at amazon.com
(206) 266-4367



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Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 16:18:23 -0700
From: "Keith Christian" <kchris1 at lausd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Rust in a keg

	
I drilled a hole in a keg for a ball valve. I put a 
washer on it to make a better seal.  Filled it with 
water and let it sit for longer than expected. It 
rusted the washers and also the keg.  There is a rust 
ring where the washer was.  How to remove the 
rust? 

I actulally found this helpful message in my files 
about the subject from John Palmer but I cant  find 
any of the recommended cleaners. I did try some 
oven cleaner on it, but it did not work.  Any other 
cleaners that would work?  Perhaps some liquid 
dishwasher soaps would work?


Thanks 

Keith
Chatsworth CA 


***
Thoroughly scour the rust away using an oxalic 
acid based
cleanser such as Kleen King, Revereware or Bar 
Keepers Friend using a
green scrubby (ie. Scotchbrite). Do NOT use steel 
wool, it will only
cause more rust.  Once you have the rust cleaned 
away, rinse the area
thoroughly with fresh water and dry it with a paper 
towel or something.
Then let it sit for a week or two.  It will repassivate 
itself and you
will be good to go.





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Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 21:01:08 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Sigh! Good to have a soul mate...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Ah, true love! I come into my home "office" to find the following note:

> Pat, 
> 
> WE also need to brew a German Kolsch beer (like Goose Island Summertime
> beer).

Ain't love grand?!

- -- 
 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock

"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday




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Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 21:41:50 EDT
From: BsmntBrewr at aol.com
Subject: Beer prayer from Oz

Brewers,
Cousin of mine down in Oz forwarded this to me.  So, I decided to forward it 
to the AHBD, as I have become to think of our wonderful forrum lately.

Beer Prayer:
Our beer
Which art in bottles
Hallowed be thy sport
Thy will be drunk
I will be drunk
At home as it is in the pub
Give us each day our daily schooners
And forgive us our spillage
As we forgive those who spillest against us
And lead us not into the practice of wine tasting
And deliver us from Tequila
For mine is the bitter
The chicks and the footy
Forever and ever
Barmen.

Bob Bratcher
Roanoke, VA
Star City Brewers Guild
<A HREF="http://hbd.org/starcity">http://hbd.org/starcity</A>


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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:05:00 -0700
From: "Eric J Fouch" <fouches at iserv.net>
Subject: Sour Mash (and cheap wine)

Regarding the current discussions on sour mashing:

<< Give the sour mashing a try, Graham, and be sure to report back how it
 turns out. I may try it if it works for you. If not, I'll stick with
 what has worked for me in the past. >>
I've used the sour mash technique several times -- in stouts, wits, and
other
Belgian styles.  The sour mash does smell pretty bad when I mash it in, but
the rank odor does not carry over to the finished product.

I have done sour mashing (for wits) two ways:

Taking a portion of mash, throwing in crushed malt, and keeping it at 130
for 30 hours.  This made a bad, bad ketchup smell.  I forced myself to use
it, and it turned out OK.  The smell did not carry over to the wit.

The other way I've done it was to take 2 quarts of first runnings, cool it
to 120, then threw in a handful of malt, and held it at 120 for 24 hours.
It smelled sour, but did not smell like bad ketchup.  I think it did a nicer
job souring the wit (at 1 qt per five gallons) and I didn't feel so bad
using it, 'cause it didn't smell bad.

If you were at the NHC and tried the Primetime Brewers Belgian Wit, that's
one that I soured using method 2.

Try it.

You'll like it.

Brewing for World Peace

Eric Fouch
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
Kentwood MI





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---