---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  south coast hitchhikers and phil... (Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative)
  Salt and flat beer (Alex Hazlett)
  Rust in a keg (LyndonZimmermann)
  Question for Steve Michalek ("Darrell G. Leavitt")
  alkaline alkalinity (Dave Burley)
  My  Dirty Bucket Pale Ale Story ("Spinelli, Mike")
  Re: Medical grade o2 setup (RobertJ)
  Re: Salt and flat beer (Some Guy)
  Re: ginger beer instructions? (Jeff Renner)
  pelforth ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Soil pH Meter (Nathan Kanous)
  Problems Growing Hops ("Jim Arbuckle")
  Sample inline from RIMS (David Sweeney)
  various ("Jeffry D Luck")
  My annual BAC rant! ("Brian Lundeen")
  Beer in Ann Arbor?? ("Jim Wallace")
  RE: ginger beer instructions (tkneall)
  Sour mash ("Doug Marion")


* 2000 AHA NHC pics and stories at http://hbd.org/miy2k
* JULY IS AMERICAN BEER MONTH! Take the American Beer
* Pledge of Allegiance! Support your local brewery...
* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 14:56:40 +1000 (EST)
From: Scott Morgan - Sun On-Line Telesales Representative <Scott.Morgan at Aus.Sun.COM>
Subject: south coast hitchhikers and phil...

Phil,

i was living overseas at the time, but last I heard backpackers 
hitchhiking in the Southern Highland region had a slight problem staying
alive.

Beware that the boys in blue dont come knocking in search of a couple
of missing travelers. I trust that if they do you will only have to 
point to the billard room and listen for the wood-choping snores.

So thats what your planning to do with that Kit beer, pump it into
some unsuspecting tourist just after a free ride. Remember what happened
to those boys in Adelaide whom fed the unsuspecting Mormons hash cookies
and ended up on pretty seroius charges and a stint in jail.

Well I am sure thru the haze those hitchhickers would have a good 
time in the billards room..it would be that morning after feeling that
might be a worry.

scotty




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Date: Sun, 09 Jul 2000 21:00:50 -1000
From: Alex Hazlett <arexu at aloha.net>
Subject: Salt and flat beer

	I was drinking at at Gordon Biersch in Honolulu on saturday, and the
canadienne at my table showed how to 'refresh' the head on a beer with a
little salt. She didn't know how it worked, and I wondered if the HBDers
had a good explanation for this. So why did the bubbles come back? Are
the salt crystals providing nucleation points? Is it some chemical
reaction? I don't see how sodium chloride could produce gas from beer...
Slightly curious,
Alex Hazlett


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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 20:52:33 +0930
From: LyndonZimmermann <lyndonz at senet.com.au>
Subject: Rust in a keg

Keith,

You didn't say how long the mild steel (I presume) washer and the stainless
were in contact. The iron may have initiated pitting and be working its way
through so it's important to really get rid of it. Traditional method for
removing iron from stainless without eating the stainless is nitric acid.
This stuff is dangerous and I'm not sure exactly what concentration to use,
but I do recall using it hot (say 50C , making it even more nasty) but that
was in a factory so time was important.  Get some help if you're not used to
working with nasties like this stuff.  Rinse with plenty of cold water
afterwards. It's also important not to scratch the surface (especially with
anything carbon steel), polish it up with some fine wet emery paper if you do.

Regards,

Lyndon Z
Lyndon Zimmermann
BE (Mech Adel) Grad Dip Bus Admin (UniSA)
24 Waverley St, Mitcham, South Australia, 5062
tel +61-8-8272 9262 mobile 0414 91 4577 fax +61-8-8172 1494
email lyndonz at senet.com.au URL http://users.senet.com.au/~lyndonz



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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 06:49:48 -0400
From: "Darrell G. Leavitt" <leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu>
Subject: Question for Steve Michalek 


Steve;

  Thankyou for agreeing to educate us!  I have heard that one 
of the main differences between Bud and Busch is that the 
former uses rice as an adjunct, while the latter uses corn.  
Are there other major differences that may concern all-grain 
homebrewers who, on occasion, try to make lighter pilsners and 
lagers for friends who may not like the darker ales?

 ..Darrell


- --------------------------
Darrell G. Leavitt, PhD
SUNY/ Empire State College
- --------------------------


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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 08:10:14 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: alkaline alkalinity

Brewsters:

Jeff and Marc have been discussing Dornbusch's book on German Helles. I
have read all three of his books and admit to stumbling in the same places
Jeff mentioned.

Basically, the confusion is "alkalinity" versus being "alkaline".

In water treating parlance, "alkalinity" refers SPECIFICALLY to the
bicarbonate ion content and nothing else. It makes no comment nor suggests
anything about pH or anything else.

More "alkaline" means more basic or less acidic. We might in casual
conversation, but in non-water treating areas, say a more basic solution
has a higher alkalinity ( usually, however,  we would say "more alkaline") 
meaning a higher hydroxide concentration, without saying anything about the
bicarbonate ion. Therein lies the confusion.

So it is possible to reduce the alkalinity and have a solution be more
alkaline all at the same time, as in the Dornbusch example.  While perhaps
confusing because of the similarity of the words and lack of detailed
explanation, the Dornbusch use in this contextual instance was correct.

I suspect the calcium from the lime does not react to precipitate the
bicarbonate ions as Jeff suggests but the hydroxide ion formed by the
hydration of the lime reacts WITH the bicarbonate ion to remove a proton
from the bicarbonate and produce a carbonate ion which precipitates as
calcium carbonate. Calcium bicarbonate is relatively soluble whereas
calcium carbonate is relatively insoluble.

What is the actual experience with pH in water treating when lime is added
to a bicarbonate solution?

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 08:59:41 -0400
From: "Spinelli, Mike" <paa3983 at dscp.dla.mil>
Subject: My  Dirty Bucket Pale Ale Story

HBDers,

As I'm never too old to be stupid, I give you my most recent FUBAR.

	(sent to my bud's at Yards Brewing in Manayunk, PA)

> Tom/Tuna,
> 
> Wanted to tell you guys how my last brew went after I picked up your
> yeast.
> 
> Made a 20 gallon batch of a pale ale.  The brewday went flawlessly.  At
> the end of the boil, I set up my CF chiller and magnetic pump to move the
> cooled wort from off my back deck and thru my dining room window and into
> my 30 gallon SS fermenter.  Up to this point, it was the smoothest brewday
> I've ever had, and the shortest.  I'm thinking to myself, "this is too
> good to be true"...something's GOTTA GO WRONG!
> 
> Well, sure 'nuf, when I turned the pump on, the wort didn't pump.  Checked
> the pump, made sure it was primed, all looked OK.  Tried again, nothing.
> Did this 3 or 4 times and nothing.  Checked the hoses for leaks, etc.,
> nothing.  Now I'm panicking.  I'm trying to think how I'm gonna get 20
> gallons of cooled wort into my fermenter without using the pump.  I can't
> fill carboys because the CF chiller is only 12" off the ground.  I'm
> getting disgusted and swearing I'll NEVER brew again if I lose this batch.
> So I grab two 1 gallon plastic buckets that I use to mop floors with.
> With no time to sanitize the  buckets, I merely rinse them with water,
> stick under the CF chiller and fill one after the other while  running
> into the house and dump them into the fermenter.  Had to do this about 20
> times.  All that's going thru my mind is thank GOD I've got alot of Yards
> yeast.  If it IS infected, I'm hoping the amount of yeast I use will
> overwhelm and conquer the infection.  One good thing, lots of aeration.
> 
> Long story short, the beer seems to be fine.  I kegged it 3 weeks ago and
> it tastes great!!  
> 
> Moral of the story.  Use lots of yeast.
> 
> Oh yeah, after I filled the fermenter, I re-checked the pump, CF Chiller
> and boil tun to see what the problem was.  It seems that I had crossed the
> hoses on the pump.  The hose from the CF chiller was on the outflow pump
> side and not the inflow side.  What a dumb ass!  So simple I completely
> overlooked it.  Go figure.
> 
> Mike Spinelli
	Cherry Hill NJ 




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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:08:40 -0400
From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com>
Subject: Re: Medical grade o2 setup

Mench5 at aol.com wrote: 

I finally got an O2 bottle for what I wanted to pay(read, cheap).Now I find I 
must have a prescription to fill my medical grade bottle ( I kind of knew it 
but thought it would be easy to get around). I have $15.00 into an "e" 
cylinder and regulator. I am considering selling the rig and looking for a 
welding rig. Are there any ideas (loopholes) out there I am missing? I love 
loopholes.
____

Most of the guys around here have just asked their doctor for a
prescription. Hasn't been a problem. Offer him a homebrew

Also, the regulator seems to have a preset psi level and a needle valve to 
control flow rate. I worry that the predetermined psi will be too weak to 
push o2 through my diffusion stone. In it's intended use a very low psi would 
seem to be best. Anyone know if this will be a problem and how to adjust the 
psi setting if this is the case?
____

I use a med. regulator. 3 ft of 1/4" id hose into a 6 gal carboy. I find 10
seconds at 3 psi through an SS stone is more than adequate
Bob
Precision Brewing Systems URL http://pbsbeer.com Manufacturer of 3 Vessel
Brew Systems, HERMS(tm), SS Brew Kettles, SS hopback and the MAXIchiller


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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 13:24:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Re: Salt and flat beer

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Alex Hazlett wrote:

> 	I was drinking at at Gordon Biersch in Honolulu on saturday, and the
> canadienne at my table showed how to 'refresh' the head on a beer with a
> little salt. She didn't know how it worked, and I wondered if the HBDers
> had a good explanation for this. So why did the bubbles come back? Are
> the salt crystals providing nucleation points? Is it some chemical
> reaction? I don't see how sodium chloride could produce gas from beer...
> Slightly curious,
> Alex Hazlett

> Are the salt crystals providing nucleation points?

Bingo!

- -- 
 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock

"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday




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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:40:24 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: ginger beer instructions?

Veronica <RoniBoni44 at aol.com> wants to make

> some of the non-alcoholic-type ginger beer.

Here is a recipe from AABG member Mike O'Brien, also proprietor of
picoBrewing Systems.  It is simple and quite good:

*1/2 jar (in other words, 2 oz.) of ground ginger - note, this is not dry
ginger but ground fresh ginger sold at the grocery store next to the jars
of minced garlic)
*3 lbs. sugar
*Juice of two lemons
*5 gallons deionized water (Mike's well water is nasty)

Keg and carbonate with top pressure.  I'm sure you could bottle it with a
little bakers yeast instead, and then refrigerate it as soon as it is
carbonated, but this always makes me worry about bottle bombs.  But people
do it all the time.  I think that the low nutrient level keeps the yeast
from carbonating too much.  Don't use beer or wine yeast, though.  I know
from experience that this can lead to broken bottles.

Mike says he thinks he'll use a whole jar of ginger next time.  I suggested
to him that heating the ginger with some of the water and sugar first might
bring out more ginger flavor.  He's also thinking about filtering it as the
first few glasses are a little chunky.  I think some sorbate might be a
good idea if you were going to keep the keg for any length of time, but I
had some that was three weeks old the other day and it was fine.

I'll be making a keg of this today for our son's wedding reception Saturday.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:22:51 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: pelforth

In HBD 3373, Todd Larson wrote:

- ---------------------------------------
Subject: Recipe for Pelforth?

On a recent trip to Paris, I consumed a large quantity of a beer called
Pelforth.  It was a brown, lightly-hopped beer that I enjoyed quite a bit.
I have searched the archives and have found nothing.  Can anyone tell me
more about this beer and suggest an all-grain clone?
- ------------------------------------------------

Can't help you with a recipe but did they serve it "straight up"?  When I
had Pelforth they served it with a shot of Picon.  I had a real language
problem but I believe Picon is some kind of liquor.  They put the shot in
the glass first then added the Pelforth.  Maybe this was a local way of
serving it in the south of France.  I have no idea how the Pelforth tasted
because of the Picon.  The combination wasn't bad but my notes say one is
enough.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY



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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 09:43:26 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Soil pH Meter

Would a pH tester for soil work for testing wort pH?
nathan in madison, wi



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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:42:38 EST
From: "Jim Arbuckle" <arbucklejim at hotmail.com>
Subject: Problems Growing Hops

I am having problems growing hops, and would appreciate any advice. I have 
three hills, one of Cascade, one Fuggles, and one Mt. Hood. As the season 
has progressed, all are looking poorly. The leaves look as if they are being 
burned from the outside in, leaving a narrow white edge to the leaf as the 
condition moves in towards the stem. The Fuggles are the worst, the Cascades 
seem to be the least affected. At first we suspected spider mites, so we 
tried blowing the plants with water, which didn't help, and then moved on to 
Dursban. No luck there, the destruction continued unabated. So we decided it 
must be a fungus and sprayed with a fungicide. No change; dying plants. We 
water frequently, have mulched in with good horse manure, etc.

Here's the weird part. It is only the bines on the trellis that show this
condition. The leaves on or close to the ground are fine. My dad speculates 
that it may be the proximity to a black walnut tree. He says that gardeners 
know better than to put tomatoes close to black walnuts, and that hops may 
have a similar susceptibility. Sounds far-fetched to me, but I've seen 
weirder things.

I'd appreciate any help.

Cordially,
Jim Arbuckle
Indianapolis



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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:43:38 -0500
From: David Sweeney <David at studentlife.tamu.edu>
Subject: Sample inline from RIMS

I've finished my PID controlled RIMS system and gotten two batches through
it.  I'm still learning the system slowly, but it works.

Question:
What do you use to draw off a sample from your RIMS inline loop?  I would
like to take quick samples for SG, pH, color, taste, etc. and don't want to
disturb the grainbed by taking a dip.  It makes sense to me to have a method
of drawing off a sample inline.  I have 0.5" NPT throughout and use high
temp beer hose and 304SS tri-clovers at all the junctions.

I did order an NPT "needle" valve, but when I got the thing home, I realized
it's a big monster rated to 10000psi and really not appropriate to draw a
small, quick sample.

David Sweeney
Texas A&M University
david at studentlife.tamu.edu



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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:01:03 -0600
From: "Jeffry D Luck" <Jeffry.D.Luck at aexp.com>
Subject: various

I've been catching up on HBD posts and ran across the 'kit beer'
question.  When I go to my brew shop to get one of their kits, it comes
with malt, specialty grains, hops out of the freezer and a choice of
yeast, along with other incidentals like bottle caps and steeping bags.
But they also carry several 1.5kg cans of hopped extract with a
yeast packett taped to the top.  Is this latter what the world knows as
'kit beer'?  If so, I offer my condolences.

> Can any over there tell me if the Eskimos ever had a fermented
>  beverage.

Lager...?

Iced Beer...?


Jeff Luck
Salt Lake City, UT  USA





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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 11:47:12 -0500
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: My annual BAC rant!

The refreshingly PC-challenged Phil Yates commented about his latest
invention:

> What a brilliant combo. Should you get a little thirsty on
> your travels and
> can't quite make it home, just pull off the highway, hop in
> the back of the
> ute and open the gun. Instant icy rice lager!! Or what ever
> is your fancy of
> the time.

Of course, you and I and pretty much everybody in this group understand that
you are still talking about responsible drinking, but I can see the knees
jerking already at your idea. In fact, maybe we should forward this to the
zero-tolerance idiots that populate M.A.D.D. I'll bet we could take out a
good quarter of them with popped aneurisms!

I don't want to get off on a rant here, but I'm a little ticked that in my
little backwater, you can lose your license for a year for as little as .08
and have your license suspended for 24 hours for a paltry .05. That's HALF
the legal limit in most of the States. I'm not advocating shit-faced blotto
drinking and driving, but most people can handle the legal limit, and the
ones that can't, just tack on a tougher sentence if they cause an accident.
I shouldn't be penalized just because statistically I have a greater
POTENTIAL for causing an accident than if I was sober. Hell, if that was the
criteria for pulling people off the road, then they should also have
roadside tests to determine if you are on marijuana or cocaine, or are half
asleep, or come from Hong Kong. There are a 100 different ways to be
impaired, why pick on alcohol? I won't argue that I'm a better driver drunk,
but I know I'm a better driver with a few beers in me than 90% of the people
they let drive around this city without penalty. Fact is, every night
thousands of people are driving around my city with an illegal level of
blood alcohol. Where's the carnage? Frankly, I just think it's time that
some voices of reason be heard in addition to those of the alco-nazis.
Otherwise, we'll end up like those countries where you can't drive with any
alcohol in your bloodstream.

> And who knows what else you might find under the tarp. Maybe
> those pretty
> European girls hitch hiking back in the last town crawled
> into the back of
> the ute when you were stopped at the lights, but you didn't notice.
>

Sigh, one of my top 10 fantasies as well. Am I the only one that only passes
beautiful young hitchhikers when my wife is with me? Come to think of it,
that just reminded me of reason 101 for having your driving ability
impaired. ;-)

Brian



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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 14:47:31 -0400
From: "Jim Wallace" <jwallace at crocker.com>
Subject: Beer in Ann Arbor??

Looking for good beer in Ann Arbor.. I am an artist who will be exhibiting
in AA next week for the Arts Festival (on South University .. near villiage
variety) 4 looooong days.. I will seriously be in need of good beer sites ..
bars, cafes, pubs, or stores ..  
 .. also a list of local beers to look for would be good

If you come out to the show stop by and say hi. I am a HBr and will be
running one of the 4 'North Eastern HomeBrewer of the Year' out here in
western MA. this fall 

  _________________________________
          Jim Wallace
  http://www.crocker.com/~jwallace
  _________________________________



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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:39:02 -0400
From: tkneall <tkneall at erols.com>
Subject: RE: ginger beer instructions

I made giner beer a few years ago that turned out fairly well.   I only
made a gallon, and although it was tasty, I haven't made any since. 
Here was the recipe and method that I used.  This is for one gallon.

2.5 cups white sugar
pinch of corriander
3 large lemons
6 oz. fresh grated ginger root
Redstar champagne yeast
1 gallon water

1.  Bring ingredients (except yeast) to a boil for 20 minutes. 
2.  Cool in a tub of water.
3.  Clean 2 2L pop bottles.  Sanitize them by rinsing with a weak bleach
solution (1 tsp per gallon) and rinse with tap water.
4.  Strain the liquid into the pop bottles.
5.  Rehydrate champagne yeast according to the directions.
6.  Put 1/8 tsp of yeast into each pop bottle.  Squeeze the bottle and
cap.  
7.  When the bottle becomes taught and expands, it is carbonated.  This
took about a week for me.  Refrigerate immediately.  Drink over ice.

The alcohol produced by the yeast is minimal, although it does taste
homemade, as evidenced by my fifth graders who can taste the yeast in
homemade root beer.  It was pretty refreshing and tasty.

Tim


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Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:00:44 MDT
From: "Doug Marion" <mariondoug at hotmail.com>
Subject: Sour mash

There's been some discussion lately about sour mash. I did this once for a 
stout but I didn't know what the sour mash was supposed to smell like and 
since it smelled bad, I never did add it to the beer. I just dumped it out 
and went with what I had (which turned out good).

My question is this. What the heck is the sour mash supposed to smell like 
when its done right? I descride the one I made as "rotten foot odor" (not my 
feet by the way). Did anyone elses sour mash smell like rotten feet? Is it 
supposed to smell like something different? I just couldn't bring myself to 
putting "rotten foot odor" in my good beer.

Keith MacNeal mentioned that "the rank odor did not carry over to the 
finished product".

Keith, you're a braver man than me to even try putting something that smells 
that bad in your beer. Unless you new that thats what it was supposed to 
smell like. I just want to know if what I was smelling is what it was 
supposed to smell like.

Doug Marion
Meridian Idaho
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---