---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  The so-called Canada-St. Louis Rift (RBoland)
  excess hop flavor? (AKGOURMET)
  bottles (DeVeaux Gauger)
  re: No sparge thoughts . . . ("Stephen Alexander")
  Wits 'n Wheat (category 1 - mostly) (Wes Smith)
  Agave Mead ("Darrell G. Leavitt")
  cool rooms (or: losing four notches and posting a "one") ("Dr. Pivo")
  Ranco Temperature Controller ("MrWES")
  Brian Fails In Category Five ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Hop God Challenge (johnsosm)
  no sparge and recirc ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Blending Yeasts (johnsosm)
  Brewing software... ("Aaron Gallaway")
  Re: Wit REcipies (Jeff Renner)
  RE: building a cold room(s) ("Braker-Abene, Scott")
  coldrooms (Jim Liddil)
  why clearer beer w/ sparging? ("Alan Meeker")
  re. The Rift again ("Darryl Newbury")
  Organizing a homebrew club (Breweler)
  RE: Some Questions (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Woo-hoo! Let the trash talk begin! (Category, um, 8? 9?) ("Brian Lundeen")
  Yeast Ranching. ("Leland Heaton")
  RE: Some Questions ("Alex Weeks")


* JULY IS AMERICAN BEER MONTH! Take the American Beer
* Pledge of Allegiance! Support your local brewery...
* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 01:26:46 EDT
From: RBoland at aol.com
Subject: The so-called Canada-St. Louis Rift

Mea Culpa!

It appears that I'm the one with the thin skin when I responded to Brian's 
tongue-in-cheek comment about a rift between Canadians and those of us from 
the land of Rams, Cardinals, and the King of Beers (Yes, we take credit for 
the Rams now, but we expect another Super Bowl win or we're outta' here).  It 
shows the hazards of not following the Digest on a daily basis.  I think we 
should all get together on neutral territory, the upcoming Great Taste of the 
Midwest for example, and have a beer or three together.

Bob Boland


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Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 03:08:28 EDT
From: AKGOURMET at aol.com
Subject: excess hop flavor?

Rod asks:
>>Here's my question.  Can you over Dry Hop/Late hop a beer. 
>>For example, use no initial bittering hops and add 6 oz 
>>(170 grams) of 4.5 alpha Noble hops with 5 minutes remaining 
>>in the boil.  This would theoretically set the IBU at about 
>>20 for a 5 gallon brew while leaving much of the flavor and 
>>aroma intact.  Another concept would be 1/4 oz (7g.) at 
>>60 minutes and 4.5 oz. (127g) at 5 minutes for a similar 20
>>IBU. 

You may be able to, but it will take more hops than that.  How do I know?  I 
was attempting to clone a Sierra Nevada Celebration Ale and ended up with an 
award-winning beer I call Hop Garden IPA.  Here's the recipe for 5.5 gallons:

15 lbs. Great Western 2-row
1 lb. Crystal 40L
1 lb. Carapils
Single infusion mash 60 minutes at 153F.  Mash out at 168F for 10 minutes.  
40 minute sparge.
Boil 90 minutes.  5 grams brewing salts added to boil.

Here's the hop schedule:
1 oz. Whole Chinook   12.3% Alpha Acid - 75 minutes
1.5 oz. whole Cascade  7 AA - 30 minutes
1.5 oz. whole Cascade  7 AA - 15 minutes
3 oz. whole Cascade 7 AA - end of boil
2 oz. Cascade Pellets dry hopped in the secondary.

All whole hops were added in hop bags and removed 5 minutes after the end of 
the boil.  I also squeezed the bags when I removed them to get all the wort I 
could.

OG 1.065
FG 1.014

This beer came of age 1 month after kegging and started winning ribbons at 2 
months.  The specs. look like an IPA, but it tastes like a Pale Ale (very 
close to a Deschutes Mirror Pond Pale Ale) , so I entered it in both 
categories.  In the San Francisco World Cup of Beer it won 1st in the Pale 
Ale (which qualifies for MCAB3) and 2nd in the IPA.  In the AHA National, it 
won 1st in both categories in the first round Northwest Division, and 3rd in 
the Second Round, IPA.   

According to SUDS, this beer came in at 64 IBUs!  If you like full hop 
flavor, this beer is for you.  Like I said, it's very close to a Deschutes 
Mirror Pond Pale Ale, which is one of my favorites.  Full hop flavor without 
overwhelming bitterness.

Bill Wright
Juneau, Alaska
www.gourmetalaska.com

P.S.  I'll let you know what **dry** yeast I used after MCAB3.  ; ^)


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Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:07:42 -0400
From: DeVeaux Gauger <dvx at mich.com>
Subject: bottles

Does anyone have a good method for removing existing labels from beer
bottles?  I soak them in hot water and dish soap but it still requires a
substantial amount of scrubbing.
Help!



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Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 05:02:24 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: No sparge thoughts . . .

LKBonham writes  ...

>Are each of you recirculating the first wort to set the grain bed

Aw c'mon - do you really think I'd forget the vorlauf  ?

The 5 were brewed using a pump to recirc from an
insertion lauter device in the bottom of the mash tun till
clear wort was achieved - roughly 15-20 minutes.  Both
sets of worts were far clearer than anything I brewed before
using a pump - "brilliantly clear" sweet wort as you say.

The sparge-only could accurately be described as a 'first
batch sparge' -similarly vorlauf'ed.  BTW the pump was not
part of a RIMS or HERMS and the mash was not continuously
recirc'ed

>On the other hand, if Steve and Pete *are* vorlaufing long enough so that
>there's not a significant difference in sediment levels between their first
>and second runnings, then I'm stumped.

I suspect the difference is in the relative concentration and
types of phenolics and proteins in the NS vs SO wort.

>Similarly, as to why sparged beer would have a better foam
>stand, I haven't a clue.  Steve, perchance did you
>run protein assays on the beers?  ;-)

I didn't expect this result either.  It's not mash conditions, it's not
yeast
it's not SG or FG.  Total extraction is not very high by commercial
standards - I doubt it could be lipids.  If you check M&BS pp 294
you'll see that protein (including permanently soluble) increases
significantly late in the sparge, the graph hints at what is better
stated in other papers -  late runnings have more complex carbs.
This *may* make for better conditions to form the foam active
glycoproteins which Del Lansing described - a wild guess.

In one of the beers I added Irish Moss to both NS&SO
No-sparge was still  less clear. on comparison.

Also Louis - you post too infrequently,
 -S





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Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 19:52:52 +1000
From: Wes Smith <wessmith at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Wits 'n Wheat (category 1 - mostly)

Roger Ayotte raises a couple of interesting issues in HBD #3381 which I 
feel should not go unanswered. In fact it has taken his posting to bring me 
out of lurking mode to actual "category 1" posting mode - no mean feat with 
so much "category 2 & 5 stuff around!

OK Roger - your basic assumption that Belgian wits use unmalted wheat is 
correct. BUT torrified and flaked wheat are in fact partially converted in 
the stewing, roasting and rolling process. An authentic wit will in fact 
use RAW wheat - this is one of the prime reasons why the beer retains its 
cloudy appearance - no yeast will hold in suspension forever. So much for 
the theory (remember this is a category 1 post) - here is what I have found 
works very well - just ask some of the serious lads (no, not the Burradoo 
Hilton mob) who have stopped by and tried my wit in a back to back tasting 
with Hoegaarden.

Now the raw wheat I use is a hard wheat - 18% protein. Yep, thats 18% - 
great for getting a healthy load of protein in the finished beer. For you 
fellow Aussie's and FNQ brewers, its Killara brand organic wheat that you 
can buy from most health food shops. It actually comes from Queensland, but 
then I'm not in the least bit prejudiced - if it works I'll use it. Oh BTW 
 - a good wit is NOT a low calorie drink.

My grain bill and mash program looks like this - 55 ltr (14 US gal) brew 
length:
3.5 kg (7.7#) Bairds Lager Malt
3.5 kg (7.7#) Joe White Wheat Malt (this is an Aussie malt - about 10.5% 
protein)
3.5 kg (7.7#) Kialla raw wheat 18% protein
0.5kg (1.1#)  flaked oats (actually from my burgoo jar. Just love it with 
brown sugar and fresh cream on winter Sunday mornings - again NOT low calorie)
Crush oats on finest setting on Valley mill - 2 passes. soak overnight in 
cold water - makes 'em more presentable for conversion in the morning.
Crush all remaining grain on second finest setting of Valley mill (my 
standard setting)
Mash Program;
Water/grain ratio; 3ltrs/kg. Water acidified with phosphoric acid to pH 6.8 
for both strike and sparge. IMPORTANT! Our water is <50ppm TDS
Mash pH 5.5
Gelatinise oats offline at 68c (154f) for 15 mins
Mash in remaining grain in at 42c (108f) for 30 mins
Add oats and raise to 52c (126f) for 15 mins Dont overdo this protein rest 
or you will end up with a clear wit!
Raise to 60c (140f) for 20 mins
Raise to 70c (158f) until negative starch test
Raise to 75c (167f) for 10 mins for mashout
Boil 70 mins with hallertau, tettnanger, crushed coriander and orange peel.
Fermented with White Labs WLP400
OG: 1045, FG: 1011 mash efficiency about 87%

You will need to pay attention to the type of Lauter tun and false bottom 
you use. Mine has a 25% open area - 1.0mm holes on 2.0mm spacing. I found 
the 3/32 on 5/32 standard false bottom too large in open area and 
frequently caused stuck mashes. You can of course add some rice hulls if in 
doubt. But please note that this brew CANNOT be done as an infusion mash.

Roger also comments about the "orange" flavour/aroma and excessive 
bitterness. My experience suggests that the orange peel will give 
bitterness and possibly some initial aroma, but the lasting "orange" 
flavour will come form the coriander. That is as long as you use good 
quality whole coriander freshly crushed. Coriander powder is no good as any 
serious curry maker will tell you.

For my last couple of wit brews I used the skin and pith (no - I'm taking 
any, its just my new teeth) from 5 Californian navels thinly sliced. Just 
before all those category 5 imaginations run riot and the FNQ guys rush me 
 - it was a couple of months ago in our navel OFF season. I do intend to use 
Aussie tangelos in the next wit - I reckon they will be great.

Actually the orange aroma dissipates very quickly, mostly in the 
fermentation and finally in the keg. The coriander also changes over time. 
I am currently drinking a 6 month old kegged wit that has a very different 
flavour/aroma from the 3 week old brew that we tapped back in January.

So, how do I have all this knowledge about Wits'? Simple really - its what 
has worked in practice for me over several years of very successful wheat 
and wit brewing. Not much science, buts lots of application of brewing 
technique. I learnt most of this technique after deciding to go to a manual 
step mash setup in an open direct fired kettle. Once you get to stir and 
"feel" the changes in your mash as they occur, you quickly begin to 
understand what is happening.

Oh yeh, almost forgot. The Baron has reportedly been seen during one of his 
early morning jaunts on the Norton dressed in designer jocks and white silk 
scarf. Also believe that he has several "kills" marked on the tank of the 
Norton and is sporting several strange marks on his back. Has Jill had the 
Cat 'o Nine out again??

Time I went,

Wes Smith
Bloke's Shed Brewery
Southern Highlands









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Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 06:06:00 -0400
From: "Darrell G. Leavitt" <leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu>
Subject: Agave Mead


I started an Agave Mead (3 lb Agave, and only 6 lb Clover 
Honey, due to the fact that I wanted it to be a bit lower in 
alc content than the 11% batch I made a year ago) , and have 
just placed it into the secondary, after about 1.75 months in 
the primary.  I am planning on leaving it there for several 
months (3-4?) then into the tertiary (3-4 mo) then bottle and 
pig.  Does this sound about right ?

By the way, the flavor was real nice...not as dry as I'd have 
liked (OG=1.08~  , gravity at secondary 1.01 !) but I think 
that it will get drier over time...

I used Montrachet dry wine yeast.

Got the Agave from St Pat's.

 ..Darrell
- --------------------------
Darrell G. Leavitt, PhD
SUNY/ Empire State College
- --------------------------


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Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:13:54 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: cool rooms (or: losing four notches and posting a "one")


Jeremy asks:

> 
> 2) has anyone built multiple rooms to have multiple temperatures available?

Yes, I confess, but not with the elaborate ducting that you suggest.
Mine is simply 3 rooms. The one deepest in is "ambient", and will vary
from anything from 12C to 0C depending on the time of year. There is a
"cool room" that simply has the cooling elements ripped out of a fridge
installed with its native thermostat, and a "warmer" room where the heat
side of the fridge elements stand, and a refrigerator (It turns out that
no matter how many rooms with different temperatures you have, you'll
probably still want some "fridges" to radically expose some portion to
"something else" than what you have available.... playing with those
fermentation temps and times has been the most rewarding aspect of
"playing with the stuff" I've encountered).

A couple of things you might notice. If you have a cement floor or
walls, and they are not absolutely sealed from the outside, you will
have a continuous source of moisture that will soon clot a plain cooling
element with ice. I simply put a timer on the power supply, so it gets
to rest and defrost a couple of times a day, which is as I understand
it, simply what a "self defrost" fridge does (did I get that 
right, Mr. Kalamazoo?).

I would not suggest using fiberglass for the very reason mentioned
above.  You will have a lot of flux of moisture moving both directions,
depending on the time of the year, and how you are cycling. Fibreglass
is a good way to trap moisture, and rot anything in the environs (like
studs). If you do use fibreglass, you may want to consider a total
moisture protection (such as the metal insides of cool rooms). You could
use plastic, but I'm not a great believer in that, as I've ripped up old
structures, and one always finds moisture damage at the little "staple
points".... in other words... tough to get 100 per tight.

What has worked for me is styrofoam. A good "K" value (which I assume is
the same as your "R"), and it is a moisture border itself.  The special
glues for it are expensive, hard to work with, and messy. I've found
something that works well, but don't know its name in English.  We call
it simply "fix", and it is the greyish goop that one makes little
furrows in when setting tiles.  In the states, they apparently use
something called "mastif" (sp.) which is a black asfalt containing
material, which gets brittle with time.  The thinking is apparently that
one can later easily chip the tile away and leave the background intact.
I've had private reports from americans warning against the use of this
in this application, as they tend to fall after a year or so.

"Fix" is an entirely different animal. If you jack hammer up some tiles
set with "fix", you'll hack away the cement it is affixed to before you
break the bond between the tile and cement. Sorry I don't know what this
material actually "is", but I've never seen an actual contents
description. It looks and works like putty, and I've used it to set up
styro against both wood and cement by simply setting a few blobs on the
surface and pressing the styrofoam slab in place.

If you do have floor contact with a plain slab, and use a refrigeration
unit (rather than an outside air source and blower) and the moisture
charcteristics described (I have chosen to leave my floor in contact
with 'ol mother E. as the most stable temp souce) you may also want to
provide for ventilation. I use pluggable holes in the walls, and a
pluggable pipe up the chimney.  About a weeks good blow through spring
and autumn seems to be enough to keep it fresh.  If the moisture gets
overbearing, and you haven't time to ventilate because of some
precariously balanced temp regimes, a bucket of slaked lime is a quick
and dirty safeguard.

Good luck. I'm sure that if you get those rooms in place, you'll
discover tons of wonderful things by jockeying different portions to
different rooms.... and sometimes you'll really surprise yourself and
make a better beer in a way you never previously imagined nor have been advised.

Dr. Pivo

SNALD (Standard North American Litigany Disclaimer). I would not advise
using "fix" as a sandwich spread, and even if your jockey "briefs" feel
a bit moist by day's end, I would not suggest filling them with "slaked lime"


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Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 06:56:16 -0500
From: "MrWES" <killshot at enteract.com>
Subject: Ranco Temperature Controller

I have my lager freezer and I just got my Ranco controller wired up. What
are brewers using as the differential setting.... 1, 2, or 5 degrees? Also,
how or where are brewers hanging the probe inside the freezer?


Thanks,
Bill




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Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:57:13 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Brian Fails In Category Five

Brian
Don't feel aggrieved. Being "village idiot" of the HBD is hardly something
to aspire to.
It somehow just comes naturally to me.

There was a time I aspired to writing technical matters to match such greats
as Steve Alexander, but I was hopelessly out classed.

I would have enjoyed being a sactimonious old turd. But wouldn't you know
it, Dave Burley had a firm grip on the position.

The only thing I knew anything about was brewing rice lager. But that got
put in the "Adjuncts" category which Jeff Renner had long been in charge of.

I thought "Foreign Agitator" might have been my style. But how could I upset
so many people so often as the infamous Doc Pivo. This takes a special
skill.

So in the end I just went for village idiot. No one seemed to want the job,
and I fitted in nicely.

Oh I should have mentioned, cross dressing was really my forte, but Mr Fouch
told me to F right off!!

Phil





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Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:58:38 -0500
From: johnsosm <stephen.johnson at vanderbilt.edu>
Subject: Hop God Challenge

Jethro Gump reports on the folks in Ames, IA, sampling some of Tom "The Hop 
God" Vista's extremely hoppy beer. We of the Music City Brewers, Tom's and 
Nashville's homebrewing club, have been the beneficiaries of many permutations 
of Tom's experimentations in the realm of adding "MORE HOPS" to beers. As 
president of the club, and a certified BJCP judge, I wanted to add to Rob's 
comments by stating that not all of Tom's beers are brewed to the extreme, and 
that he has come a long way since he first started brewing and joined our 
esteemed group. He has done well in the regional homebrewing competitions with 
many of his well-balanced ales. But, he also loves to challenge our regional 
judges (and brewers as well) by brewing very hoppy beers with the hopes that 
they will return a score sheet that says, "This beer is too hoppy" or "Too 
much hop aroma for style". To date, I don't think this has happened! As a 
result of this quest, Tom has issued a challenge to brewers around the country 
as part of our annual homebrewing competition, The Music City Brew-Off. The 
idea is to have a special entry category to be known as "The Hop God 
Challenge" in which brewers are challenged to compete against our own Hop God 
to brew the hoppiest beer.   This was started last September as part of the 
our 4th annual event, and will be continued this year when we have our 5th 
event on September 23. This happens AFTER all of the other judging rounds, and 
Tom serves as lead judge along with a panel of other judges, so some might say 
the deck is already stacked. But, of course, the beers are judged without 
knowledge of which beer was brewed by whom. And, it should be reiterated that 
this is all in fun, and is all part of us trying to help the Hop God in his 
quest to find the Holy Grail of ultra-hopped beers. So get brewing, chant 
"MORE HOPS!!!" while you are brewing, toss in another handfull when you think 
you've got enough in the kettle, and look here for more details to come 
regarding our event in September. In the meantime, you can learn more about 
our club and past competitions at our website, http://www.musiccitybrewers.com

Steve Johnson, President
Music City Brewers
Nashville, TN




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Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:30:38 -0400
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: no sparge and recirc

Two days ago I posted my observations about my short batch sparging
techniques.  They are not complaints about the process at all, merely
obervations although I do not appreciate the lack of head although it could
be from the dishwasher glasses I use.  However, commercial bottled micros
still seem to have better head than mine when drank from the same glasses.
I can live with it though. 

Anyways, I neglected to post that I recirculate both first runnings and
second runnings before running them off to product vessel.  I tend to
recirculate about 1 to 1.5 gallons from each and tend to run these fractions
off fast to help clear out the particles that manage to get below my false
bottom.  In lighter beers I pay attension to clarity level of the run-off
and the above recirculated amounts are a result of this watching which I
tend to use for all brews.  Once I have recirculated I tend to drain off
slower to help aid in the extraction of sugars from the grain since my
efficiencies are already a bit low from the short-run batch sparge. another
time when small bits are carried over to boil is as the runnings (both first
and second) start to finish up draining from the grain bed and the suction
from the gravity syphon is still high enough in that some particles get
pulled down into runnings and eventually boiled liquor.  I do try and
minimize this as the flow slows but I can't say that I religiously stop flow
at this time.

I do use irish moss in the boil and manage to get both good hot and cold
breaks.  I do not rack off my cold break and instead rough filter this and
hop particles (I use pellets) out upon racking to fermentor.  This rough
filtration tends to remove about 1-2 qts. of combination hop and break
material.  Some obviously makes it through this filtration as I only strain
it after immersion cooling to 70F.

I think that I have short batch sparged about 40 different brews totalling
some 150 gallons worth in the last year or so.  These have ranged from 1.045
weizens to 1.100 barley wines and are typically 3.5 - 5 gallon batches. all
sorts of normal adjuncts liked rye, flaked barley, oats, flaked maize, etc
as well.

I do enjoy my all-grain brews and don't plan to go back.  Although I do brew
maybe 2 extract plus grains a year for parties where I don't have time to do
allgrain or where the other ingredients (coffee) would muffle some nice
allgrain flavors anyways.

regards,
Pete czerpak
albany, NY


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Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:16:43 -0500
From: johnsosm <stephen.johnson at vanderbilt.edu>
Subject: Blending Yeasts

Just thought I'd post a question that came up when discussing some yeast 
propagation issues with one of our fellow brewers in Nashville. He was 
culturing up some yeast from a bottle of Chimay, as well as working with some 
slurry from the secondary of a tripel he had been conditioning for about 6 
weeks (I think he used the Wyeast Trappist variety, but not certain of this). 
He planned on brewing a dubbel this weekend, and was trying to decide which 
yeast to use. As it turns out, the sample from the Chimay was iffy in terms of 
showing some activity only after more than 2 days, so he is more than likely 
going to use some of the slurried yeast after getting it going again after 
it's lengthy rest in the secondary under high alcohol conditions. Which brings 
us to the questions: do any brewers use several different varieties of yeast 
when brewing these, or other styles of beers, and if so, what impact would 
this have on the finished product (e.g., do you get some of the 
characteristics of both, or does one of the yeast end up being a predominate 
"gene", so to speak?) and what might future "generations" of this mixed yeast 
slurry do in future batches? We both understand from our reading that some 
breweries use one type of yeast for primary fermentation, then add a second 
variety at bottling time, and that there might be a pasteurization or other 
processing step to remove the primary yeast, but we are more interested in the 
intentional blending of yeasts during the primary. We also understand that the 
wild yeasts that go into lambics, etc., might be considered "blended", but we 
see that as a separate issue...

Steve Johnson
Nashville, TN




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Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 13:06:35 GMT
From: "Aaron Gallaway" <baseball_junkie at hotmail.com>
Subject: Brewing software...

Dear fellow brewers,



     I was hoping some of you could give me some info or insight into some 
good breweing software??? Thanks, you can reply privately or on the forum 
for others who may not have thought to ask such a question. Reply to: 
Baseball_junkie at hotmail.com


GO MARINERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aaron Gallaway
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com



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Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 09:05:28 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Wit REcipies

Roger Ayotte <RCAYOT at solutia.com> wrote regarding Belgian wits:

>     It is my understanding that UNMALTED wheat is traditionally
>     used.  This is usually in the form of torrified wheat or flaked
>     wheat.

Tradationally the wheat is completely raw, not only unmalted but also
unflaked or torrified.  As this is the winter wheat harvest time here in
Michigan, let me once again recommend soft white winter wheat.  It really
makes a nice contribution.  I wish the HB suppliers would get on the ball
and distribute it, but I suppose there isn't much demand.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 08:43:59 -0500
From: "Braker-Abene, Scott" <sbraker-abene at comark.com>
Subject: RE: building a cold room(s)

Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at stanford.edu> Writes: 

"Since I seem to be moving to a new land where basements are more
than just a fantasy I have been kept up late by dreams of my new
indoor brewery and cold room(s).  I would like to solicit comments
from fridgeguy and whomever else can help on a couple of points."

About a year ago I built my 5.5' x 10' walk-in fridge. 

I looked around for pre-fab units but never found one I was happy
with and that fit my 7' old home basement ceilings. 

If you are interested I did a webpage that you can find on the
BrewRats HomeBrew Club site ( http://www.brewrats.org ). 

I put together a sort of "how too" that you can find here:
http://www.brewrats.org/walkin.cfm

Email me if you have questions. Building the walk-in was relatively
easy and cheap too. 

C'ya!

 -Scott

PS: I may have cut off all my hair recently but I still enjoy Plaid
Mister Babcock... Don't go thinking I am getting all soft... 

=====
ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT
Scott Abene <skotrat at mediaone.net>
http://www.skotrat.com (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page)

"The More I know about beer politics, The more I wish I made 120k"





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Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 07:19:02 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at VMS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: coldrooms

> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 15:35:11 -0700
> From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at stanford.edu>
> Subject: building a cold room(s)
> 
> Since I seem to be moving to a new land where basements are more than just a
> fantasy I have been kept up late by dreams of my new indoor brewery and cold
> room(s).  I would like to solicit comments from fridgeguy and whomever else
> can help on a couple of points.
> 
As someone who lives in such a place let em give you my thoughts.  First I
live in a new house with a poured concrete basement.  Basements can be
damp and stuff can grow all over.  You will need to run at least one if
not two dehumidifiers to deal with the humidity.  Also you wantas much
insulation as you can afford.  Sweating of pipes in the summer is a real
problem on any even cool surface.  Yale is constantly fighting this
problem.  Electricity is very expensive here so you can save money by
insulating well up front.

If the basement does not have a floor drain then you will need to put in a
sump pump to get the water up an into the sewer pipe.  I had to do this
when I installed my sink.  

Be sure to look into proper venalation as well.  And be aware the we can
lose power here on a regular basis.  Intermintant outages are a regular
occurance for us.  So I have many surge protectors and am considering
getting the house wired to run off a generator if needed.  As my neighbor
keeps saying we are due for a really hard winter and a good hurricane.

Jim Liddil
North Haven, CT



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Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:35:22 -0400
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at jhmi.edu>
Subject: why clearer beer w/ sparging?

Just some educated guess here, but the reason for Steve's observation - that
sparged beers appear to clear better than no-sparge, may lie in the fact
that he is almost certainly extracting more tannins through sparging and
that these can later combine with haze forming proteins and precipitate them
out, either during the boil or at later stages. Also, if there is a
differential effect in pulling out foam-negative species this could also
contribute to positive head formation. Steve, what is the difference in
_chill-haze_ between the two methods?

Other possibilities include the fact that during a prolonged sparge residual
amylase and protease activities may have important effects, cleaving up
starches and proteins respectively.

FWIW

 -Alan Meeker
 Baltimore, MD






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Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:37:44 -0500
From: "Darryl Newbury" <darryl at sagedesign.com>
Subject: re. The Rift again

Brian Lundeen writes:

>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGOOOOOOOOOS!!!!!!!!

Okay so I changed a few letters.

I didnt realize that there were any Toronto Argonauts fans in Manitoba
(thats Canadian Football for those you you either south of the 49th or
south of the equator who might miss the reference). I suppose that if your
from Toronto, you might miss the reference since few here pay attention to
the CFL.

Brian, I did realize that your comments were tongue and cheek, and only
felt compelled to comment following Bob Boland's post. I wanted to make
sure that Bob, who organized MCABII (and may or may not have seen the
conference wars posts a few months back) know that those Canadian who
attended both from Ontario and Alberta had a great time.

Further Brian, how could there be a rift between Toronto and Winnipeg when
at least 80% of the Torontonians don't know that Winnipeg exists. We
actually find Winnipeg a good source of amateur brewers, I can think of at
least two refugees from that mosquito infested city of yours who are
active in the homebrewing community here.

Cheers Darryl



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Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 12:01:57 EDT
From: Breweler at aol.com
Subject: Organizing a homebrew club

Fellow brew enthusiasts,

Having recently attended the AHA NHC, and been struck with the camaraderie, 
generosity, and over all good will exhibited by all the clubs in attendance, 
I have decided to start a home-brew club.  I've been brewing for 9 years on 
my own, but would enjoy having some buddies to share this obsession with.  
I've lined up a local B. O. P.  facility as our meeting place.  I'm in need 
of any info anyone can provide on organizing a club.  I've been wondering 
about: frequency of meetings, amount of dues, fundraising, nonprofit legal 
status, election of officers, handling money, AHA sanctioning, etc...  
Perhaps there is a set of guidelines.  I could just "wing it," but don't want 
to reinvent the wheel.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.  Private emails 
if you wish.

Thanks in advance,

Mark Videan
5640 E. Gallivan Rd.
Cedar MI, USA 49621
Breweler at aol.com


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Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 11:04:16 -0500
From: rlabor at lsuhsc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Some Questions

From: Eph Fithian <fithian at telocity.com>

Hello to a new poster Ephraim.

>1. The 28 quart aluminum stock pot works well for cooking lobster, 
>since we did 10 of them last weekend. It did leave a black coloring 
>on the inside of the pot, which is probably oxidation. Should I use 
>this pot for preparing and cooking the wort, or should I get a 
>stainless pot?

It should be fine to use for brewing.  The present consensus is that
aluminum pots are ok for kettle use.  Just do not remove the black coating,
this acts like a protective oxide coating to prevent aluminum from
dissolving in the wort.  Clean it out good with soap and a sponge.  When we
cook crawfish here in New Orleans, we use lots'a seasoning, very spicy.  I
do not know if that would carry over to taint the beer flavor.  Make sure
you cannot smell any seasoning, leave it in the sun for a while to help
remove any odor.

>. We have a home reverse osmosis water filtration system on our 
>water, along with a water softener. The local water is fairly hard 
>22) and the softener is needed.

Never heard of an RO with a softener after.  Dunno, the RO is supposed to
remove just about everything, especially any mineral ions, so why would you
need a softener.  A five stage RO system has some filters after the membrane
filter, but it is still considered the RO system.  Anyhow, the RO water
should be good to use, but to get some needed calcium, add a small
percentage 5-10% local dechlorinated water to the RO water.  More salts can
be added, depending on the style of beer you are brewing.

>Sould I 
>use the RO water for brewing, or the unsoftened water with the 
>chlorine? Can I boil out the chlorine?

Yes, no, yes.

>3. I have purchased an immersion cooler that consists of 25 feet of 
>3/8" copper. As I understand, this goes in the stock pot and water 
>runs through it to quickly cool the boiled wort. Is this enough to 
>cool the wort in a reasonable time, or do I need to ice cool the 
>water running through the cooler first? Local water is at 23C (73F) 
>this time of year. Would it be better to add chilled (40F) water to 
>the wort to cool it faster?

With your summertime water at 73f, you cannot get the wort cool enough
without ice.

Here's what I do.  Couple days before brewing I bag some ice from the
icemaker in my freezer. Two or three bags will do. Then place a bucket or
small picnic ice chest half full of water into your fridge.  On brew day,
after you cool down with tap water (about 30 minutes) then you dump the ice
into the picnic chest half full of cold water (you will be surprised how
much difference the cold water makes - I learned this trick from the head
brewer at Dixie Brewing Co.) I have a small aquarium submersible pump (about
$25) that I rigged up with a 6 foot vinyl hose and faucet male connector on
the output end.  I place this into the ice water and begin circulating.  As
the wort cools and the ice melts, I can add more ice and the wort gets
cooler and cooler until I run out of ice.  About 2 or 3 bags.  I can get the
wort very cold if I have enough ice, but usually a couple of bags will do.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsuhsc.edu
http://hbd.org/rlaborde



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Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 12:12:03 -0500
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: Woo-hoo! Let the trash talk begin! (Category, um, 8? 9?)

It's a swing and a miss from Darryl Newbury, who attempts to malign my fair
city with comments like:

> Further Brian, how could there be a rift between Toronto and
> Winnipeg when
> at least 80% of the Torontonians don't know that Winnipeg exists.

Now, Darryl, do you really want to broadcast the shortcomings of the Toronto
public school system like that?

> We actually find Winnipeg a good source of amateur brewers, I
> can think of at
> least two refugees from that mosquito infested city of yours who are
> active in the homebrewing community here.

Ah, one of the great myths about Winnipeg, the mosquitoes. Truth is, we are
only infested for a very short period of time. Then we get sick of the
little buggers and blast our city with malathion, much to the chagrin of the
granola-chewers. Better living through chemistry, that's our motto.

As for the brewers leaving our fair city for greyer pastures, let all who
will listen know here and now, that come this fall, I will be organizing
Winnipeg's first AHA-sanctioned homebrew club, the Winnipeg Brew Bombers (a
play on the name of OUR football team, but the less said about them the
better). Mark my words, it may take a couple of years, but one day this club
will be known for the major butt-kickings it inflicts at competitions
everywhere. After all, as one former CFL quarterback noted, "There's nothing
to do here but go to the zoo", so we've got all the time in the world to
perfect our brewing techniques. Hell, we're so committed to quality beer in
this city, we forced both Molson and Labatt to shut down their operations
here.

And just to make sure the rift widens a bit more:

Q: How many Torontonians does it take to change a light bulb?

A: Just one, but he has to go to New York first to see how they do it there.

Cheers

Brian

PS. Pat, after this post, I think you should clamp down on this sort of
thing. It's just taking up too much space in the Digest.



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Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 10:08:59 PDT
From: "Leland Heaton" <rlheaton at hotmail.com>
Subject: Yeast Ranching.

I am getting ready to start my second batch.  Mostly to get my mind off my 
first batch.  I once again would like to thank everyone for helping me, and 
to Karl, for putting up with my constant questions :).

I do not have a hb shop near me, and I am going to be forced to mail order 
my ingredients.  But I was thinking about being able to have a supply of 
yeast on hand, yeast ranching.  I was wondering if their was a somewhat 
simple way to ranch yeast, I have received some advice, but am curious as to 
some of the things you "serious ranchers" know.

Also, could this be an option (I know that I am going to order enough 
ingredients for two batches of the same beer (cheaper this way)), could 
order 1 packet of yeast, make a starter, split the starter, make another 
starter (for first batch) and save the split for the second (for a fresher 
yeast), or should I just recover from the trub.  It seems logical to ranch 
before, with healtier yeast.

Thank you very much.

Leland
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com



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Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 12:43:34 -0700
From: "Alex Weeks" <fargone at napanet.net>
Subject: RE: Some Questions

<<1. The 28 quart aluminum stock pot works well for cooking lobster,  Should
I use
<<this pot for preparing and cooking the wort, or should I get a
<<stainless pot?

You should definately use stainless steel.  Not only can tha aluminum pot
add a metalic taste, there are a number of health reasons to just get rid of
it all together.

<<2. We have a home reverse osmosis water filtration system on out
<<water, along with a water softener. The local water is fairly hard
<<(22) and the softener is needed. I can bypass the softener, but it
<<would also bypass the RO system, which removes the chlorine. Should I
<<use the RO water for brewing, or the unsoftened water with the
<<chlorine? Can I boil out the chlorine?

I would use the water the after the RO and softener.  I would then add
something to create a water profile that is desireable to the type of beer
you are making.   Pilsners traditionally are from a very soft water source,
whereas english ales are very hard.  I would recommend getting a copy of
"Designing Great Beers" by Ray Daniels.  This book has great info on this
and many other subjects.

<<3. I have purchased an immersion cooler that consists of 25 feet of
<<3/8" copper. As I understand, this goes in the stock pot and water
<<runs through it to quickly cool the boiled wort. Is this enough to
<<cool the wort in a reasonable time, or do I need to ice cool the
<<water running through the cooler first? Local water is at 23C (73F)
<<this time of year. Would it be better to add chilled (40F) water to
<<the wort to cool it faster?

The faster it cools the better!  I would not add cold water to the wort!  I
found that just straight tap water will cool 6 gallons of boiling wort in
about 20 minutes at my house.  I use a submersion pump in a bucket of ice
and water to chill my wort. It takes me about 12 minutes now.

<<4. With the prehopped extract, I am afraid that the IPA will be
<<under-hopped. Is it ok to add some pellet hops near the end of the
<<boil?

I would recomend it.  Adding hops to the boil will add a lot to it.  about
15 min for more flavor and 2 min for aroma.  The hops provided in the
extract will yield very little hop aroma.  You can still add hops to the
wort as it is fermenting (dry hopping).  This will not add any bitterness,
but will provide hop aroma.

Good luck and happy brewing!



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